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Author Topic: So when does the Progressive Bubble pop? Back to Topics
Troller_Diesel

Champion Author
Denver

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Message Posted: Aug 28, 2014 7:35:59 PM

So when does the Progressive Bubble pop?

"The weakness in his argument is that he assumes that the Progressive one-way ratchet is in fact a one-way ratchet (or more likely, cannot be broken). If the true definition of a bubble is when everyone acts like there's a bubble (see Barney Frank and the Community Reinvestment Act) then Progressivism is a bubble - even people who hate it with the fire of a thousand suns simply assume that it's a one-way ratchet.

So when does it pop, how spectacular will the pop be, and how many lives will be destroyed when it happens? Because the second thing that we know about bubbles is that they can't ever be safely deflated to a "soft landing". They always pop."

Best answer is in the comments:

"It will pop when they run out of other people's money."
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MahopacJack
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Sep 1, 2014 2:00:42 PM

AC-302, >>...The National Sales Tax, IMHO, isn't "fair", it would be UNFAIR. There are some serious problems with it, the fool "prebate" being the least of them. However, a FLAT income tax, taken right off the top, with no or very few deductions I think would be better.<<
~

So you think paying the hidden payroll, income and corporate taxes in every single purchase under the current system is better?

A flat tax, as you stated would not necessitate the repeal of the 16th Amendment. This leaves the citizenry still under the thumb of a master who has proven time after time it is incapable of administering its own tax laws. (Much less the very laws it has sworn to uphold - the US Constitution.)

Don't forget the original 'income' tax was designed only to tax the income derived from non-productive sources such as property sales and stock transactions of the very wealthy. How has that worked? Would Congress continuously making promises it can not keep to garner votes, how long before your more reasonable 'flat tax' would DEMAND more from us? And the ABUSIVE UNCONSTITUTIONAL FORCE used by the IRS would continue wreck havoc. And the political corruption within all government agencies would dramatically increase. The 'Flat Tax' solves nothing. It just TEMPORARILY, if anything, appear to make things better.

The 'Prebate" is designed to equalize the disparity of income between the rich and the poor.

~
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Sep 1, 2014 1:00:36 PM

Mudtoe - we'll never agree on that. The National Sales Tax, IMHO, isn't "fair", it would be UNFAIR. There are some serious problems with it, the fool "prebate" being the least of them. However, a FLAT income tax, taken right off the top, with no or very few deductions I think would be better. Why so? 1) It would take far fewer government resources. 2) People are already used to a tax on income. 3) It would still fall under the 16th Amendment, not requiring a repeal of an Amendment nor any Constitutional changes.

What to me is even more scary is an EU-style VAT. There are liberals in the US that want to institute the VAT as a means of extracting more money for social programs, just like Europe does. A 17.5 - 25% federal sales tax collected on everything you buy. Yikes! No thanks. That's something we need to let our fool legislators know is utterly unacceptable.
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therder
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Sep 1, 2014 12:48:19 PM

Troller Diesel:>>With the Obama Misadministration printing money faster than it can buy the ink and paper to print it, how much longer WILL our money stay viable?<<

We haven't seen bad yet, but we will. Other nations,gaining power,are actively working to undermine the US dollar as the premier trading currency in the world. Our dollar has been used for years as the sole currency for oil purchases around the planet. If this ceases the world will be flooded with US dollars which will almost instantaneously become next to worthless.


[Edited by: therder at 9/1/2014 12:49:25 PM EST]
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Aug 30, 2014 9:43:54 PM

AC: "Beg pardon, my friend, but they will NEVER repeal the personal income tax. Ain't gonna happen. Even in "cool" "progressive" Europe, they have incredible taxes."


Agreed, for two reasons. First, those in Congress, even Republicans, will never voluntarily give up the power that the tax structure gives them. By creating or closing loopholes they have great power to reward their friends (i.e. donors) and punish their enemies (i.e. the donors of their opponents). They aren't ever going to give up the ability to do that. Second, the left seeks to spread out the taxes and hide them so that it's very difficult for someone to truly understand how much of their money is going to government. For that purpose a dozen taxes directed at various parts of the economy, many of which are hidden from view and buried in the cost of everything we buy, are far better than a single fair tax.


mudtoe

[Edited by: mudtoe at 8/30/2014 9:48:54 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Aug 30, 2014 7:38:06 PM

Beg pardon, my friend, but they will NEVER repeal the personal income tax. Ain't gonna happen. Even in "cool" "progressive" Europe, they have incredible taxes. Here, now. My cousin from Netherlands just was in over the weekend. He was telling me not to complain, about my paying almost 40% in income taxes, as he had to pay 52% income tax right off the top, in addition to fuel taxes (making gas there like 2 Eurodollars/liter, or more or less eight bucks a gallon), AND the VAT on everything they buy.
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MahopacJack
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Aug 30, 2014 5:37:58 PM

~
From my viewpoint, it's already beginning to pop. The bailouts of irresponsible companies and individuals gave rise to the TEA Party. Organizations such as Free and Equal are sponsoring political debates that include candidates with new ideas. (They invite the two RULING parties to debate but they never appear. Too afraid.) Instant Runoff Elections are now gaining favor. The movement to repeal the 16th Amendment is slowly gaining favor. Sponsorship of the HR 25 (The Fair Tax) is increasing in Congress. (Granted there are no sponsors from the left but if and when they begin to support it, it may be a sign that the end is in sight.) Many people have abandoned BOTH major political parties and are registering as Independents.

It will not be a short nor easy struggle as there are many that have been abusing the system and will not change without a struggle.

~
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Aug 30, 2014 3:04:16 PM

ej: "Until half of America wakes up and starts voting -- we are on a path to self destruction."


The people you want to wake up barely represent half of the voters in this country. It won't be long before more than half of the eligible voters in this country are receiving more in benefits from government than they are paying in taxes. At that point we are finished. I think we already are finished because too many of the people who aren't receiving more in freebies than they are paying in taxes don't understand the danger. They think things like gay marriage, legalized drug use, etc. are more important issues to vote on rather than economic issues. These are primarily millennials who have no clue what they are doing to their futures.


mudtoe
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Aug 30, 2014 2:30:39 PM

Topic: So when does the Progressive Bubble pop?

--When the money runs out? Is this a trick question?
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e_jeepin
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Aug 29, 2014 11:36:15 AM

I agree with Mud -- the progressive ideology never breaks down completely and functions for eternity like an bad govt entitlement deemed "unsustainable". Its always sustainable -- they just keep taking more of other people's money to make it sustainable!

I saw this morning that the unemployment rate in Italy is 12.6% for July.

How long has this been a problem in Italy? Generations
How long have they operated under a progressive ideology? Generations!

Same thing in Spain. Vote your entitlement (your pocket), get the same result for decades -- Economic demise.

Progressive Democrats are about to complete their strategy of becoming the permanent ruling class in the US. As soon as they magic wand amnesty, it is poured in concrete. They may lose elections in 2014 and 2016 but 5 million instant immigrant voters will vote their welfare benefits after that. Democrats will get swept into a majority AGAIN while everyone wonders how this happened! Look at the 2012 election for proof. Urban voters overthrew the Nation's voter base 2-to-1. We got beat by entitlements -- the Italy and Spain election model!

Until half of America wakes up and starts voting -- we are on a path to self destruction. This one-way ratchet of Liberalism buying votes through entitlements is unstoppable unless they are financially cut off.

Lets first look to 2015 after the dust settles. We have to get rid of Boehner and McConnell to have any hopes of fixing this mess. These two idiots are just going-along until their pensions kick in.

Break the chain now!


[Edited by: e_jeepin at 8/29/2014 11:41:15 AM EST]
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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Aug 29, 2014 10:59:44 AM

With the Obama Misadministration printing money faster than it can buy the ink and paper to print it, how much longer WILL our money stay viable?

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therder
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Aug 29, 2014 10:21:09 AM

The bubble will burst when the dollar is no longer the world's defacto reserve currency. In our world of computers and global finance, there is really not much of a reason to have a world reserve currency. The only time a problem may occur is when a company does business in a country that either doesn’t have a freely floating currency or has an extremely erratic currency. So while I don’t think another currency like the yuan or euro is going to replace the dollar as the world’s reserve currency anytime soon, I’m not sure there will be a need for a reserve currency at all much longer. I do think the world will slowly move away from using U.S. dollars in their transactions. As an example, I think Putin and Russian officials would like nothing more than to get some revenge against the U.S. for the sanctions. Nobody is going to benefit from a major military conflict, so hurting the dollar may be the only way to get revenge. It won’t be a shock if Russia tries to get China to go along with its plans to slowly abandon the U.S. dollar.
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Aug 29, 2014 9:55:42 AM

Gee mudtoe,
I was counting on the aliens giving us free unlimited energy and a cure for cancer. Bummer, man.
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Aug 28, 2014 11:48:01 PM

As a practical matter I don't think it's going to "pop" until government is physically unable to hand out anymore freebies. I'm not sure if that happens because of a spectacular economic meltdown that makes the depression look like just another bad day in the markets, runaway inflation that devalues printed money faster than it can be printed or put into EBT card balances, civil unrest or revolution, or world war that brings on the apocalypse.

However, whatever method it is, the one thing I am certain of is that government won't stop of it's own volition, and I'm afraid to have to say it, but I don't believe that we conservatives can stop it because we are being out reproduced and out illegal immigrated by people who want those freebies and don't want the gravy train stopped. The best I think we can do as conservatives is slow down our demise for a little while if we elect enough people to temporarily obstruct the left.

The one wildcard in all of this is some sort of technological breakthrough that none of us can see right now which fundamentally improves productivity so drastically that a small fraction of the population working could produce enough goods and services to satisfy everyone not working with plenty left over. However, I don't think that's likely in the time-frames I believe we have left before one of the above things happens.


mudtoe

[Edited by: mudtoe at 8/28/2014 11:49:10 PM EST]
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Aug 28, 2014 11:34:29 PM

It already popped in most of the UK and Germany.
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