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Author Topic: Zero Tolerance = Zero common sense - It's time to homeschool Back to Topics
HotRod10

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Message Posted: Apr 8, 2014 10:36:19 AM

The government schools have gone crazy. If it's not a kid getting strip-searched and "evaluated" for 5 hours for twirling a pencil, it's 2nd grade math problems an engineer can't figure out.

At least once a week, I see something that makes me say "Thank God my kids are homeschooled".

Have you considered homeschooling? If so, why haven't done it?

Won't even consider it? Why not?
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 5:35:21 PM

"But what does it matter, you homeschool so your kids are free from all of those other nasty religions."

We teach about numerous religions and the effect they've had on the societies that have embraced them.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 5:13:32 PM

"Many of them know when Ramadan, Hanukkah, Kwanza, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and Thanksgiving are too. It doesn't mean they know anything about the meaning of those holidays. They just know they get off from school."

Or not. But what does it matter, you homeschool so your kids are free from all of those other nasty religions.

;)
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 5:06:27 PM

"Bet they know about Christmas..."

...at least what day it is. Many of them know when Ramadan, Hanukkah, Kwanza, Memorial Day, Labor Day, and Thanksgiving are too. It doesn't mean they know anything about the meaning of those holidays. They just know they get off from school. If other schools follow the example of Montgomery County, Maryland, they won't even know that much.

[Edited by: HotRod10 at 11/25/2014 5:08:12 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 4:20:06 PM

"And again, most public school students don't know much about Christianity"

Bet they know about Christmas...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 4:19:40 PM

"Could be quite upsetting for them."

Certainly eye-opening. One of the downfalls of indoctrination.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 3:26:20 PM

I cannot imagine the reaction of children who learned in school about other faiths having to deal with their own religion being taught the same way. To show that other religions and their religion are all religions might present to some of them, for the first time, the idea that their own religion is not "fact". Could be quite upsetting for them.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 2:19:12 PM

"And again - school is about learning things you don't already know..."

And again, most public school students don't know much about Christianity, even less about Judaism. Certainly not every public school student has even a basic understanding of them.

If understanding the religious heritage of a society is important for understanding its culture, then Christianity and Judaism should be taught so that all students will be able to understand the cultural context Judeo-Christian societies.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 12:59:27 PM

"Agreed, but who was talking about a whole class on Christianity? I'm just talking about equal treatment."

And again - school is about learning things you don't already know...
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 12:02:57 PM

"No, teaching the aspects of a religion to understand a culture for a couple of days in school is hardly the same as teaching a class in Christianity for the year (or any other religion)."

Agreed, but who was talking about a whole class on Christianity? I'm just talking about equal treatment.

They're hitting all the positive events, doctrines and faith statements of Islam, and none of the horrific things perpetuated by its followers. OTOH, only the negatives about Christianity and Judaism get any play, if anything at all, because portraying them in a positive light is seen as a violation of the Establishment Clause.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 9:02:40 AM

"No, you just conveniently change your views on teaching religion in public school depending on which religion is being discussed."

No, teaching the aspects of a religion to understand a culture for a couple of days in school is hardly the same as teaching a class in Christianity for the year (or any other religion).

SMH
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2014 1:06:54 AM

"It would be useful if there were a guarantee that teachers could do it in a scholarly way without injecting their own personal beliefs."

"Which would definitely be the biggest hurdle..."

I agree. It is surely difficult to teach religion without bias, which is the reason why if religious subjects are taught, all religions should be approached in the same way and given the same treatment. If this cannot be done, then no religious subjects should be broached.

The problem remains that the myth that "separation of church and state" now forbids Christianity from being taught in public schools (a recent interpretation, btw), doesn't extend to a prohibition of instruction (or even indoctrination) in other religions.

"You seem to have forgotten my previous comments - conveniently."

No, you just conveniently change your views on teaching religion in public school depending on which religion is being discussed.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 2:46:46 PM

"It would be useful if there were a guarantee that teachers could do it in a scholarly way without injecting their own personal beliefs."

Which would definitely be the biggest hurdle...
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 1:12:33 PM

"The public schools should be teaching the "specific doctrines and tenets on faith" of Christianity so students understand the foundations of American, European and South American cultures."

It would be useful if there were a guarantee that teachers could do it in a scholarly way without injecting their own personal beliefs.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 10:56:20 AM

You seem to have forgotten my previous comments - conveniently.

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 11/24/2014 10:56:57 AM EST]
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2014 10:37:16 AM

"How else are out kids expected to understand how to interact with other cultures..."

I'll take that as a yes. So then, The public schools should be teaching the "specific doctrines and tenets on faith" of Christianity so students understand the foundations of American, European and South American cultures.

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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 10:48:19 AM

"So you're saying that because religion is a big part of culture, that the specific doctrines and tenets on faith of the major religions in a culture should be taught in public schools?"

How else are out kids expected to understand how to interact with other cultures as we continue to move towards a global economy with instantaneous, global communication available to each citizen of our country via the Internet?
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 5:35:25 PM

"Hard to teach about other cultures however if you don't discuss one of the biggest parts of that culture..."

So you're saying that because religion is a big part of culture, that the specific doctrines and tenets on faith of the major religions in a culture should be taught in public schools?
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 5:30:39 PM

Planned Parenthood Sex Ed Classes Aimed to Produce 3-5 Abortions per Student

“Carol Everett, a former abortion clinic manager in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, recently explained to EAGnews how pro-choice groups like Planned Parenthood have leveraged their position in public schools to create a pipeline of clients to abortion clinics.”
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 12:57:58 PM

"In any case, the schools aren't supposed to be teaching any religion, are they?"

Hard to teach about other cultures however if you don't discuss one of the biggest parts of that culture...

Or should kids only learn about 'Merica?
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 12:40:19 PM

Parents Shocked by Disgusting Sex Ed Curriculum in Chicago Public Elementary Schools
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 10, 2014 1:17:19 AM

"And most of these students are Christian...School isn't about teaching things you already know."

Since only about 20% of Americans attend church regularly, even if their families claim Christianity, most of those students know very little about it. In any case, the schools aren't supposed to be teaching any religion, are they?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2014 4:01:08 PM

"...and a few Christians as well."

And most of these students are Christian, so they should already know all about their religion through - their religion.

School isn't about teaching things you already know.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2014 1:20:40 PM

Is it Sex Education or Authorized Pornography for School Kids?

"...the materials produced by Planned Parenthood were deemed “too graphic” for adult readers of two of the nation’s most liberal newspapers: The New York Times and the Washington Post. But, according to Planned Parenthood, the materials are appropriate for school children."

"...eighth-grade students in San Marcos, California were asked to stand under various signs that indicated how far they were willing to go sexually. The signs had such labels as all-the-way, hugging, and so on. As one might imagine, parents were not happy with this activity. I suspect the parents of little girls who stood under the “all-the-way” sign were especially concerned."

I'm sure the boys in that 8th grade class took notice, too. One has to wonder what the teacher was trying to accomplish...narrowing the victim pool, maybe?
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2014 12:14:01 PM

High Schooler Suspended for 5 Days for Slicing an Apple

I just used the title of the article. It should've read : "High Schooler Suspended for 5 Days for attempting to Slice an Apple", since the teacher interrupted his healthy eating presentation and took the knife from him (he handed it over immediately) before he could do violence to the apple.

"Superintendent Sherman Micsak told WOIO that Shaw’s punishment could have been up to a year."

My favorite reader comment: "What next, they are going to make them put corks on the forks?" I thought of Steve Martin in "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels".
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2014 11:40:35 AM

Tennessee Schools Use Common Core to Ban Christianity and Teach Islam?

"According to the WCS website, more time is being spent on teaching Islam than on teaching the Roman Empire and its effect on
American Law and Government, architecture, etc.

Under the heading ‘Islamic World Standards. Africa,’ the CC Curriculum teaches this; ‘Pillars of Islam.’ ‘Discover Islam.’
“Explore. Discover. Be Convinced.” Then, there’s “My Journey to Islam,” someone’s conversion story.

Is there a conversion to Christianity story in the CCSS curriculum? No. A Conversion to Judaism story? No."
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2014 9:52:26 AM

"expose them to the world in which they live - which does include a few Muslims."

...and a few Christians as well. The point is that the "separation of church and state" seems to only prohibit Christianity and Judaism from being mentioned (at least in any sort of positive view), but the virtues (and not the dark sides) of all other religions are extolled. Judaism and Christianity have done at least as much to shape world history and our social structure as Islam, but usually don't get discussed at all, and if they do, it's usually only the Inquisition or the Crusades (where the evil Christians attacked the innocent Muslims for no reason whatsoever).

[Edited by: HotRod10 at 11/7/2014 9:54:53 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 6, 2014 1:16:47 PM

""draw detailed pictures of the 5 pillars of Islam and write a word collage of all that is good with Islam." I can't imagine a similar assignment detailing the Nicene Creed or a collage extolling the virtues of Christianity being allowed (much less assigned) in any public school today."

I read it. The parents are more than capable of challenging the curriculum - that is standard practice and there are procedures for that.

Again, the purpose of Social Studies isn't to reinforce what the students already know but rather expose them to the world in which they live - which does include a few Muslims.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2014 7:41:29 PM

"Are these not relevant terms that one should known of in this day in age? Learning about different cultures isn't the same as being indoctrinated, as these parents would make it seem."

If you had read the whole story, you would see that the vocabulary words were just what got their attention. It was the content of the textbook and the class assignments that the parents objected to - "draw detailed pictures of the 5 pillars of Islam and write a word collage of all that is good with Islam." I can't imagine a similar assignment detailing the Nicene Creed or a collage extolling the virtues of Christianity being allowed (much less assigned) in any public school today.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2014 4:49:28 PM

"I started typing the first few words, and then I came to Quran, Mosque, Alms, Caliph, Jihad, Sunnis, Shiites."

Are these not relevant terms that one should known of in this day in age? Learning about different cultures isn't the same as being indoctrinated, as these parents would make it seem.

That is the entire point of Social Studies - to learn about other cultures in the world we live in (as well as to better understand those from other countries with whom we also live with in our own country).

SMH at intolerance.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2014 4:44:35 PM

"2 Students Suspended for 10 Days for Posting Facebook Photo with Airsoft Guns"

A sad overreaction.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2014 4:42:09 PM

"Again, you try to separate that which is inextricably linked. Standards determine curriculum."

Only if you don't understand why they are not linked...

"You again misread what I wrote. I said "rigorous", not "uniform", by which I mean an approach that starts with the basics and moves to more complex after the basics are mastered."

And curriculum are not uniform, so you again are only showing our ignorance on the subject. The "approach", to quote you again, is all about the curriculum.

"Doesn't make them wrong either."

Is any system design, built and implemented by humans perfect? Of course not. I doubt the Finns would tell you otherwise as I am sure they are trying to improve some aspect on a continuous basis, just like the rest of the world.

"You just seemed annoyed that anyone would dare to disagree with your assessment of the reasons for Finland's supposed success, or whether it is really a success story."

If my rebuttal gives you that impression, than I can only assume you are seeing what you want to see.

"Except that you conveniently skipped over the part where Finnish students lagged behind several countries (including a couple other European countries) and several US states on the TIMSS mathematics assessment."

Several Asian countries... Our culture will never match that model. I like how you ignored that Finland, as a country, performed better than the US and instead tried to anecdotally point out that a few States performed better.

More hand-picking of data, par for the course for you.

The reality is that Finland performed better in every category compared to the US, and without all of the BS pressure, competition, standardized testing, grading of teachers, extended hours of learning etc that so many here would like to see.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2014 3:51:50 PM

Massachusetts Public Schools Teaching the Shahada: ‘There Is No God But Allah’

"The shahada that the children are forced to recite in Massachusetts public schools is the Muslim profession of faith (“there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”)"

"In Volusia County, Florida, hundreds protested Islamic lessons in their “World History” text, a Common Core-approved high school history textbook.

With an entire chapter dedicated to the virtues of Islam, and not a single chapter for Christianity, the textbook has Floridians in a frenzy. And who is the biggest pusher of Common Cores besides leftist progressives? The Islamic Society of North America, another Muslim Brotherhood front group, along with Hamas-CAIR; and in Florida, Hamas-CAIR is on the offensive."
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 5, 2014 3:42:37 PM

The Mosqueing of the Public Schools in America

"She is in 7th grade and usually does not ask me for help. She gave me her vocabulary words for social studies and simply asked me to type it for her. I started typing the first few words, and then I came to Quran, Mosque, Alms, Caliph, Jihad, Sunnis, Shiites. I instantly became alarmed and asked to see her social studies book. My husband and I spent the next 3 hours reading through her book and I have to tell you that my life changed on that day.

I kept my daughter home from school for the next two days and met with the principal. I attended my daughter's class when she went back to school. Her assignments continued; draw detailed pictures of the 5 pillars of Islam and write a word collage of all that is good with Islam. We met with the teacher and principal together and questioned the curriculum.

We received the party-line responses of "state standards" and "Common Core" for every question we had..."
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2014 5:32:11 PM

2 Students Suspended for 10 Days for Posting Facebook Photo with Airsoft Guns

"The picture featured Tito Velez and his girlfriend Jamie Pereira posing in what looked like someone’s living room, each holding an airsoft rifle pointed at the floor. The caption read “Homecoming 2014.”

School officials are saying that it was the caption itself that had them concerned. The picture was obviously taken off campus, but the caption is what tied the picture to a school event, namely the homecoming dance. As a result, these two were suspended for 10 days."

"...after the dance had come and gone without incident, officials should not have been concerned with their gun picture, because the one thing that supposedly tied it to a school activity was in the past.

But they still felt the need to punish these students for holding black, scaring-looking guns that shoot plastic pellets."
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Oct 30, 2014 11:35:09 AM

From "PISA days are here again" (Part 2):

"Perhaps the most revealing PISA results are those from Finland, which has dropped from its previous top-ranked perch to 5th in science, 6th in reading, and 12th in math. As Education Week’s Rick Hess has noted,16 it’s silly to think that Finland’s schools “fell apart between 2009 and 2012” — just as silly as it was to think that “Finland had cracked the code of educational excellence.” As this post-mortem of Finland’s fall from PISA grace17 illustrates, the actual picture is more complicated. The variety of explanations offered — other countries got better, Finland got complacent, they were never really that good to begin with, Finnish students “have forgotten how to work” — demonstrates how PISA and other standardized tests are really more Rohrschach than rigorous assessment."

[Edited by: HotRod10 at 10/30/2014 11:36:22 AM EST]
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Oct 30, 2014 11:00:02 AM

"Which has nothing to do with standards and everything to do with curriculum"

Again, you try to separate that which is inextricably linked. Standards determine curriculum.

"You again make my point."

You again misread what I wrote. I said "rigorous", not "uniform", by which I mean an approach that starts with the basics and moves to more complex after the basics are mastered. Common Core math is one approach out of many, and not a particularly rigorous one, since it doesn't require students to master the basics by getting the right answers, but rather supposedly focuses on the "concepts" of how math works. In reality it's a conglomeration of mathematical theories and "shortcuts" that only serve to confuse students, teachers, and parents alike.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Oct 30, 2014 10:41:59 AM

"There are always counter arguments - even for something as straight-forward as vaccinations. That doesn't make them right."

Doesn't make them wrong either. Sometimes the "counter-arguments" are more valid than the viewpoint that was expressed first. The validity of an argument comes down to the facts that support it, not speculation, feelings, or fantasies about how things should be.

"Based on a blog? Why would I be offended by somebody else's opinion?"

You just seemed annoyed that anyone would dare to disagree with your assessment of the reasons for Finland's supposed success, or whether it is really a success story.

"They are talking about basic math..."

"Which most people refer to as 'everyday knowledge'. ;)"

Except that you conveniently skipped over the part where Finnish students lagged behind several countries (including a couple other European countries) and several US states on the TIMSS mathematics assessment.

The highly touted (at least by the fans of the Finnish system) PISA test purports to test "problem solving" skills, but success depends on the students' familiarity with the types of problems presented. If, for instance, the test entails
"figuring out how to work a new MP3 player, finding the quickest route on a map, or figuring out how to buy a subway ticket from an automated kiosk", then students familiar with MP3 players, maps, and subway kiosks will do well. It doesn't necessarily mean they can extrapolate that knowledge to other pursuits. They may be able to get to work, but it doesn't mean they can do the work when they get there.



[Edited by: HotRod10 at 10/30/2014 10:43:46 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 29, 2014 1:13:55 PM

"They are talking about basic math..."

Which most people refer to as 'everyday knowledge'. ;)

"Are you offended that the Finnish system isn't as perfect as you tried to make it out to be?"

Based on a blog? Why would I be offended by somebody else's opinion? We are all entitled to our opinion. Even your opinions don't offend me ;)

"I also found a few like the one I linked to, with a more in-depth analysis of their system, what really makes it work, and how it may not be as fantastic as it would seem based on a single metric."

There are always counter arguments - even for something as straight-forward as vaccinations. That doesn't make them right.

"The knowledge needed to advance into higher levels of science, medicine, etc. must be taught using a more rigorous approach."

Which has nothing to do with standards and everything to do with curriculum - ie "approach". You again make my point.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Oct 29, 2014 11:58:03 AM

"So now you are saying that an inept government is highly effective in something?"

Effectiveness at achieving a goal is usually related to the level of motivation in achieving the goal. What's the government's goal here? More power for itself. Are they are motivated to achieve that goal? You bet. How does it achieve that goal? By controlling the populace. How does it control the populace? By controlling what populace learns.

"How strange, 8th graders not having a firm grasp of college level concepts..."

They are talking about basic math that is the foundation for higher math needed for university-level studies.

"Your source is also lacking, given that their goal ("Utilising the market to improve the quality and availability of education") is the opposite of the Finnish model. Seems unbiased to me. <s>"

What's wrong? Are you offended that the Finnish system isn't as perfect as you tried to make it out to be? Everything is biased. The story you linked to was biased. Bias is inherent, unavoidable, and therefore irrelevant. What matters is the facts. The fact is Finnish students do well on a test that correlates with what is taught in their schools (imagine that!). By other metrics, ones that test math skills, for instance, they do rather poorly.

"I bet you typed into Google something along the lines of 'Finland school system bad'."

Actually I typed in "secret to success of finland's education". I found several articles similar to the one you linked to, touting the socialist political system as the key to their fantastic education system. I also found a few like the one I linked to, with a more in-depth analysis of their system, what really makes it work, and how it may not be as fantastic as it would seem based on a single metric.

"So, you are saying that 'everyday' knowledge isn't important? As in, knowledge and understanding you would use every day? Huh. Interesting POV you believe there."

Everyday knowledge is something that everyone should have and generally can gain by being curious and observing the world around them. The knowledge needed to advance into higher levels of science, medicine, etc. must be taught using a more rigorous approach.

[Edited by: HotRod10 at 10/29/2014 12:04:11 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 29, 2014 10:49:56 AM

"They are testing how well they will fall in line with the priorities of the national administration - indoctrinating children instead of educating them. They are systematically weeding out the teachers who will not bow to the government educational system and teach what they are told to teach."

So now you are saying that an inept government is highly effective in something?

Convenient.

"I figured you'd get around to that eventually - what we need to improve education is a full-blown welfare state. The problem is that even if we had the type of high-tax-government-provides-everything system like Finland, the US government would never give up the control over the education system."

The government hasn't given up control. It is a national system...

"First, while Finland scores well on PISA, this particular league table is designed to test everyday rather than curriculum-based knowledge."

So, you are saying that 'everyday' knowledge isn't important? As in, knowledge and understanding you would use every day? Huh. Interesting POV you believe there.

"This means that it lacks key concepts of importance for further studies in mathematically intensive subjects, such as engineering, computer science, and economics. This is an obvious defect: such subjects are likely to be crucial for developed countries’ future economic well-being."

How strange, 8th graders not having a firm grasp of college level concepts...

SMH

Your source is also lacking, given that their goal ("Utilising the market to improve the quality and availability of education") is the opposite of the Finnish model. Seems unbiased to me. <s>

I bet you typed into Google something along the lines of 'Finland school system bad'. I can't imagine why you managed to find an opinion in a blog that matched what you were hoping to find. What a surprise! It is on the internet, it must be true! "Bonjour"!

ROTFLOL!!
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Oct 29, 2014 10:05:04 AM

"They think 'think' they are grading the teachers on how well they educate children,"

No, they know exactly what they are grading teachers on. They are testing how well they will fall in line with the priorities of the national administration - indoctrinating children instead of educating them. They are systematically weeding out the teachers who will not bow to the government educational system and teach what they are told to teach.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Oct 29, 2014 9:54:04 AM

"The problem facing education in America isn't the ethnic diversity of the population but the economic inequality of society, and this is precisely the problem that Finnish education reform addressed. More equity at home might just be what America needs to be more competitive abroad."

I figured you'd get around to that eventually - what we need to improve education is a full-blown welfare state. The problem is that even if we had the type of high-tax-government-provides-everything system like Finland, the US government would never give up the control over the education system.

The education "miracle" of the Finnish system explained:

"First, while Finland scores well on PISA, this particular league table is designed to test everyday rather than curriculum-based knowledge. This means that it lacks key concepts of importance for further studies in mathematically intensive subjects, such as engineering, computer science, and economics. This is an obvious defect: such subjects are likely to be crucial for developed countries’ future economic well-being.

The Finnish fan club rarely talks about its mathematics performance in TIMSS, an international survey focusing more on curriculum-based knowledge – which plummeted over the last decade. Finnish eighth-graders today perform slightly lower than seventh-graders did in 1999, lagging the top-scoring nations by a considerable margin. Not so miraculous after all. It’s perhaps not surprising that over 200 Finnish academics in 2005 warned about complacency as a result of the PISA success. Others questioned whether it represents a victory at all since important knowledge had been sacrificed along the way.

So Finland might not be so great after all, partly because its centralised curriculum has ignored certain concepts that are not tested in PISA. But where the country goes right is in the degree of choice and competition already at work in the system. While it’s true that Finland doesn’t have many free schools overall, its state system has still been competitive. In Helsinki, 37% of compulsory-age school pupils attend free schools. Most Finnish councils also have at least one Swedish-language school, to which all pupils have access. The choice is there.

Furthermore, in Finnish sixth form, which is not compulsory, choice is extensive. One in eight pupils attend free schools; in Helsinki, it’s one in three. Crucially, admission to all schools is determined by, firstly, pupils’ choices and, secondly, their grades in compulsory school – without any concern for where pupils live. This makes all sixth form schools in Finland more similar to grammar schools than comprehensive schools. Research suggests that this system improves achievement in lower grades, because pupils work harder to gain admission to top schools and programmes. In other words, the extremely competitive system that exists in sixth form also increases achievement in compulsory education.

So there you have it: Finland does school competition..."
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 28, 2014 6:55:16 PM

The problem facing education in America isn't the ethnic diversity of the population but the economic inequality of society, and this is precisely the problem that Finnish education reform addressed. More equity at home might just be what America needs to be more competitive abroad.

"What's more, despite their many differences, Finland and the U.S. have an educational goal in common. When Finnish policymakers decided to reform the country's education system in the 1970s, they did so because they realized that to be competitive, Finland couldn't rely on manufacturing or its scant natural resources and instead had to invest in a knowledge-based economy.

With America's manufacturing industries now in decline, the goal of educational policy in the U.S. -- as articulated by most everyone from President Obama on down -- is to preserve American competitiveness by doing the same thing. Finland's experience suggests that to win at that game, a country has to prepare not just some of its population well, but all of its population well, for the new economy. To possess some of the best schools in the world might still not be good enough if there are children being left behind."
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 28, 2014 6:52:11 PM

"And what is that metric? How well the teachers educate the children or how well they teach what those creating the tests want them to teach?"

What difference does it make? They think 'think' they are grading the teachers on how well they educate children, but they aren't even grading them as to how well they teach what in on the tests... It is an utterly pointless exercise, but yet carries a lot of weight, unfortunately.

"It's not a leap, it's about 2 very short steps away."

Given how far out in Left Field you are, I don't doubt your proximity...
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Oct 28, 2014 3:12:40 PM

"Because they wanted to control the metric used to decide how teachers should be graded."

And what is that metric? How well the teachers educate the children or how well they teach what those creating the tests want them to teach?

"This is the leap where you lose me."

It's not a leap, it's about 2 very short steps away.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 28, 2014 1:21:35 PM

"The difference with the new tests is that local schools, and even the state, don't have any choice in what tests they are going to use."

I don't disagree with that, but since we both are in agreement over additional testing under CC...

"More testing is bad, but the real danger is in the federal government mandating the specific tests that must be used."

Again, I don't disagree with this either.

"If you keep turning a blind eye to that fact, or believing it can be "tweaked" into something it's not and will never be, you will wake up some morning and wonder when we became the Soviet Union."

This is the leap where you lose me.

"Why are they so adamant about using the CC tests instead of letting the states use their own?"

Because they wanted to control the metric used to decide how teachers should be graded. It has nothing to do with this phantom conspiracy to turn the US into the USSR that you believe so strongly in...
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Oct 28, 2014 11:08:06 AM

"And there were already standardized tests in place historically."

The difference with the new tests is that local schools, and even the state, don't have any choice in what tests they are going to use. More testing is bad, but the real danger is in the federal government mandating the specific tests that must be used. As you pointed out, the schools end up teaching to the test, which results in the feds dictating what is taught. If you keep turning a blind eye to that fact, or believing it can be "tweaked" into something it's not and will never be, you will wake up some morning and wonder when we became the Soviet Union.

"there were already standardized tests in place to measure academic progress. Instead of replacing these (or simply continuing to utilize them), CC just added more."

Have you stopped to ask why? Why are they so adamant about using the CC tests instead of letting the states use their own? If you dare, think on that a while, research it a little, and you'll become as "paranoid" as I am.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 28, 2014 10:10:37 AM

"...if it didn't have the testing, it would not be a standard..."

Wrong.

"...and I apparently can't convince you to accept simple logic"

If only you were using simple logic.

"Luckily, others are waking up the reality of what CC is..."

More paranoid delusions about indoctrination of kids to accept bigger, more intrusive government? LOL!!!

"Learn to read."

Aw, I expect much better from you than such an inane insult.

"Standards do dictate the content of the curriculum, but "standards" without testing are not standards, because compliance cannot be determined."

And, as I already posted;

"And there were already standardized tests in place historically. more have simply been added, so much more that we are at the point now where curriculum is based on the tests, rather than the standards."

Again, in case you missed - there were already standardized tests in place to measure academic progress. Instead of replacing these (or simply continuing to utilize them), CC just added more.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2014 9:41:58 PM

"So please, pick one argument and stick with it..."

I have. You're the one who's been inconsistent by trying to separate CC into components. It is a comprehensive package of standards with testing to determine if the standards are met. You admit that they can't be separated, and yet say you support the standards but not the testing. It's a package deal; if it didn't have the testing, it would not be a standard, it would be a scope and sequence document. If that's all it was, I wouldn't have a problem with it either. We prefer the one we currently use, but if others chose to use it, that would be up to them. Except, if the major college entrance exams are aligned to CC, then my kids would be at a disadvantage in applying to a college that uses those exams.

"I can't dispel fears based on paranoia, conjecture and innuendo..."

...and I apparently can't convince you to accept simple logic. Luckily, others are waking up the reality of what CC is, and you soon be in the minority.

"You said it yourself (regarding standards not determining curriculum);"

Learn to read. Standards do dictate the content of the curriculum, but "standards" without testing are not standards, because compliance cannot be determined. There is simply no way to know if the standards are met without testing.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 24, 2014 2:41:52 PM

"The adoption of CC by the states means accepting and agreeing to meet the standards as shown by the test scores."

And there were already standardized tests in place historically. more have simply been added, so much more that we are at the point now where curriculum is based on the tests, rather than the standards.

"As it is further implemented and the tests, including the college entrance exams, become fully aligned with the recommended reading material, it will become impossible to pass the tests without the recommended material being taught.

You're on your own on that one, I can't dispel fears based on paranoia, conjecture and innuendo...

"Still living in the fantasy, I see."

You said it yourself (regarding standards not determining curriculum);

"Without the mandate to prove the standards have been met, it's nothing more than a guide to what kids should learn. Those have been around decades and local schools could use them at will."

Standards have been around forever, as has curriculum being decided on by the local School Districts. So please, pick one argument and stick with it...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 10/24/2014 2:43:50 PM EST]
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