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Author Topic: Zero Tolerance = Zero common sense - It's time to homeschool Back to Topics
HotRod10

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Message Posted: Apr 8, 2014 10:36:19 AM

The government schools have gone crazy. If it's not a kid getting strip-searched and "evaluated" for 5 hours for twirling a pencil, it's 2nd grade math problems an engineer can't figure out.

At least once a week, I see something that makes me say "Thank God my kids are homeschooled".

Have you considered homeschooling? If so, why haven't done it?

Won't even consider it? Why not?
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 29, 2014 4:08:14 PM

"A great expression of their Rights as Americans,"

I'm still trying to find that right to abandon your responsibilities, and take sick leave to go protest. I haven't found it yet.

"as well as looking out for their students."

By involving them in their negotiations with the school district? I'm sure the students learned a lot about the character (or lack thereof) of their teachers.

"Yeah, it would be silly to think the students actually grasp the issue"

The students not only do not grasp the issues, they don't care to, either.

"re-read the link regarding Denmark's education system once again."

You didn't like my conclusions the last time I read it. I thought I would give you a chance to articulate which particular parts of their system you think we should emulate, since it's obviously not all of it.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 29, 2014 9:53:05 AM

"...about the teachers' lack of professionalism and lack of commitment to the students' education."

A great expression of their Rights as Americans, as well as looking out for their students. Not that I would expect you to see that given you disdain for teachers.

"That only demonstrates the inordinate level of influence the teachers have over the students, who have been successfully taught to do whatever the teacher tells them and believe what they are told to believe."

Yeah, it would be silly to think the students actually grasp the issue, unlike yourself.

"If that's true, then why the protests when the board tried to assert that authority and review the curriculum?"

The Board will be held accountable come election time, if the majority agree. Exposing their actions is how you have them held accountable. Or do you not understand how the democratic process works?

"Can a school board fire a teacher for poor performance? Can teachers be fired for anything short of a criminal act anymore?"

Of course they can. More empty rhetoric from a teacher-hating Tea Partier...

"So what's your solution?"

Seems that was apparent in the previous statement, no? If not, re-read the link regarding Denmark's education system once again.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 26, 2014 3:42:14 PM

"Makes a pretty strong point, doesn't it?"

...about the teachers' lack of professionalism and lack of commitment to the students' education.

"Especially when the students are doing the same..."

That only demonstrates the inordinate level of influence the teachers have over the students, who have been successfully taught to do whatever the teacher tells them and believe what they are told to believe. Either that, or they just saw the opportunity to skip class without repercussions and seized it.

"School Boards already have control and accountability for their curriculum."

If that's true, then why the protests when the board tried to assert that authority and review the curriculum?

"Which is interesting that you ask, since with RTT they are now accountable to some national bureaucracy. Funny you don't see that local decision making has been diminished and instead support the nebulous national bureaucracy you speak ill of from the other side of your mouth."

How many times do I have to say I don't support RTT? Your close relationships with numerous teachers hasn't done anything for your reading comprehension skills.

"They are accountable to the School Board, who is accountable to the Public already..."

Can a school board fire a teacher for poor performance? Can teachers be fired for anything short of a criminal act anymore?

"The problem is that Educators are no longer populating roles being filled by politicians at these decision-making levels;"

So what's your solution?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 26, 2014 1:43:57 PM

"You're the one who tied my comment about communism to civil disobedience being scrubbed from history books"

So then why the comment about Mr. Luther King Jr.? Your retort makes no sense, whereas scrubbing the history books is a common trait seen in communist countries.

"They have a right to protest all they want - on their own time. The teachers took paid days off, without giving notice, which also left their students without teachers, in order to protest the actions of the school board."

Makes a pretty strong point, doesn't it? Especially when the students are doing the same...

"In a perfect world, maybe, but in the real world they serve whoever they are accountable to."

They are accountable to the School Board, who is accountable to the Public already...

"The only question is, will they be accountable to their community, or to some national bureaucracy?"

Which is interesting that you ask, since with RTT they are now accountable to some national bureaucracy. Funny you don't see that local decision making has been diminished and instead support the nebulous national bureaucracy you speak ill of from the other side of your mouth.

"I say if we want to get the education system that we had back, we must get the federal government out of it completely and the state governments out of it as much as possible and return control and accountability to the local school boards."

Wrong - School Boards already have control and accountability for their curriculum. The problem is that Educators are no longer populating roles being filled by politicians at these decision-making levels; the know-how is continuing to be watered down by local bureaucracy because people like you 'think' they know better.

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 9/26/2014 1:45:36 PM EST]
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 26, 2014 11:17:06 AM

"Funny, I don't remember ever implying such a ridiculous notion..."

You're the one who tied my comment about communism to civil disobedience being scrubbed from history books. I know you added a ";)", but you still said it. Perhaps I should have added a ";)" to mine as well.

"Why are you tying in 'calling in sick'? Do they or do they not have the right to protest against curriculum changes that they feel would be in detriment to student learning?"

They have a right to protest all they want - on their own time. The teachers took paid days off, without giving notice, which also left their students without teachers, in order to protest the actions of the school board.

"Schools exist to serve the children being educated."

In a perfect world, maybe, but in the real world they serve whoever they are accountable to. Children do not have the authority or the maturity to hold their schools accountable for what they do or how well they do it. In the utopia that exists only in your mind, teachers and school administrators could be left alone to do whatever they want and because they are all altruistic, everything would be wonderful. In the real world, there are selfish, lazy people in all professions, who must be supervised and held accountable for their actions and their job performance. The only question is, will they be accountable to their community, or to some national bureaucracy? I say if we want to get the education system that we had back, we must get the federal government out of it completely and the state governments out of it as much as possible and return control and accountability to the local school boards. Only then would we truly have public schools again.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 26, 2014 9:24:07 AM

"Funny, I don't remember MLK marching against communism."

Funny, I don't remember ever implying such a ridiculous notion... Did he or did he not march against segregation - which was the norm accepted at the time (as wrong and misinformed as it was), in the face of white government leaders of the era?

;)

"Merit pay does not penalize teachers based on the grades of 1 or 2 students, but on their students as a whole."

Which shows you still don't understand the pitfalls of a testing-based merit pay system for teachers. Quite frankly, I wouldn't expect you to understand that level of detail anymore than I would expect a 2-year old to comprehend how far away the Moon really is (isn't it just above the trees?) given his lack of exposure and ability to grasp surroundings he is unfamiliar with.

"I may be a little fuzzy on my Constitution, but I don't remember a right to call in sick to protest."

Why are you tying in 'calling in sick'? Do they or do they not have the right to protest against curriculum changes that they feel would be in detriment to student learning? More deflections?

"Schools should exist to serve the parents and the community, not to police how parents raise their children."

Wrong. Schools exist to serve the children being educated. NOT the parents' whims... Where have I said that schools should be involved with how parents raise their kids? Another deflection to make your argument seem palatable?

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 9/26/2014 9:25:09 AM EST]
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2014 4:00:35 PM

"Communism, here we come!"

"Especially when you start scrubbing the history books of accounts of civil disobedience ;)"

Funny, I don't remember MLK marching against communism.

"but rather the sad state of affairs where parents aren't held accountable for their kids' failings - it MUST be the teacher's fault that a child is not succeeding in school, even if they get no support at home. OR at least that is what your merit-based testing tries to imply."

Merit pay does not penalize teachers based on the grades of 1 or 2 students, but on their students as a whole. If the school is sticking all of the students with lazy, disinterested parents in one class, there's something more going on.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2014 3:52:28 PM

"But they were exercising their Constitutional Rights ;)"

I may be a little fuzzy on my Constitution, but I don't remember a right to call in sick to protest.

"You should be against it because it came from the federal government, regardless of what it entailed,"

I am against it, but not because it came from the federal government, but because of what it is.

"except that you see it as a weapon to penalize teachers, the subject of your vitriol, so suddenly you are for 'select aspects' of it."

I am for teachers and schools being accountable to the parents and community they are supposed to serve. Schools should exist to serve the parents and the community, not to police how parents raise their children.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2014 3:45:17 PM

"Last time I checked, parents, not teachers, were responsible for their children."

So you missed the point and changed the subject, yet again? Interesting that this was the only item you had a response to.

"I know, that's a travesty as far as you're concerned. How dare parents think the their kids belong to them?"

What tangent are you ranting on about now? My comment had nothing to do with who's responsibility the kids are (they are indeed the parents' responsibility), but rather the sad state of affairs where parents aren't held accountable for their kids' failings - it MUST be the teacher's fault that a child is not succeeding in school, even if they get no support at home. OR at least that is what your merit-based testing tries to imply.

"Communism, here we come!"

Especially when you start scrubbing the history books of accounts of civil disobedience ;)
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2014 3:27:32 PM

"Too bad the parents can't be held accountable by the teachers anymore."

Last time I checked, parents, not teachers, were responsible for their children. I know, that's a travesty as far as you're concerned. How dare parents think the their kids belong to them? We're supposed to hand them over, shut up, sit down, and do what we're told. Communism, here we come!
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2014 1:13:32 PM

"there was only going to be review of the nationally-standardized content by local citizens."

Curriculum is not 'nationally-standardized content'... Why are you struggling with this so? Curriculum is determined by the locals. Curriculum is NOT the methods used to teach a standard. Google might help you on this if you choose to enlighten yourself, as I suggested earlier.

A quote form the story;

"A new conservative school board majority here in the Denver suburbs recently proposed a curriculum-review committee to promote patriotism, respect for authority and free enterprise and to guard against educational materials that “encourage or condone civil disorder.”"

The very definition of censorship - you should be outraged given your previous posts showing your disdain for the government trying to indoctrinate your kids through pacification.

Of course, when your assertion is challenged you attempt to deflect the issue into one portraying teachers in a negative light and since you agree with the censorship as it matches your own Tea Partying agenda.

Not surprising.

"Most of the people writing about this also need to learn the the definition of "civil disobedience" as opposed to "strike" or "protest"."

The students/teachers weren't trying to exemplify 'civil disobedience' by protesting. Look-up 'Martin Luther King Jr.' and get back to me on that. Oh, wait - that is a negative portion of America's history, you probably have that blocked on your internet.

But they were exercising their Constitutional Rights ;)

"As I said before, 'blah-blah-blah...I hate teachers...blah-blah-blah'."

Yeah, we get that.

"If you thought I was against RTT because it supposedly requires teacher accountability, then you misunderstood me. I didn't like it because it was a bribe to the states to adopt CC."

You should be against it because it came from the federal government, regardless of what it entailed, except that you see it as a weapon to penalize teachers, the subject of your vitriol, so suddenly you are for 'select aspects' of it.

"I've always been for teacher accountability, although they need to be accountable to the parents and the community they serve, not to the feds."

Too bad the parents can't be held accountable by the teachers anymore.

"The concept has always been a part of our free enterprise system"

Which has nothing to do with the Public Sector... but then you twisted the question so you could continue with your soap box rant.

Your true colors are shining through - you hate teachers for some unknown, personal reason. Bottom-line.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2014 12:44:27 PM

"They were protesting the proposed censorship of the district's curriculum, scrubbing anything anti-America out of it"

Again, there was no censorship proposed, there was only going to be review of the nationally-standardized content by local citizens. It was only an attempt to bring the content back into balance from the decades of the history being skewed farther and farther towards the anti-American side and leaving out everything good about America's founding and history. Most of the people writing about this also need to learn the the definition of "civil disobedience" as opposed to "strike" or "protest".

History should be taught in its proper context, including the views and motivations of the people involved. If you scrub Christianity from history, as the progressives have attempted to do, you neglect the all-important "why" from most of the events of America's founding.

Everything anti-government has been scrubbed from most history books already. I grew up 40 miles from a Japanese internment camp and knew nothing about Roosevelt imprisoning thousands of American citizens by executive order simply for being of Japanese descent.

As I said before, it was really never about the curriculum, or the review committee anyway. It's about the teachers union not getting raises for all teachers, whether they did a good job or not. Their demands were not met so they went on strike, except they didn't actually go on strike because they wanted to keep getting paid their salaries. When that didn't work, they used their students as pawns in their extortion scheme.

If you thought I was against RTT because it supposedly requires teacher accountability, then you misunderstood me. I didn't like it because it was a bribe to the states to adopt CC. I've always been for teacher accountability, although they need to be accountable to the parents and the community they serve, not to the feds.

"Where did you think the merit-based system came from? The Tea Party?"

The concept has always been a part of our free enterprise system. Raises are for people who excel at their job. Those who are mediocre at their job don't get raises, those who do a lousy job get fired. Education is one of those fields where it's virtually impossible to fire anyone, no matter how poorly they do their job, or how inappropriate their behavior.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2014 10:30:29 AM

"What does any of that have to do with Race to the Top?"

So you didn't read what was posted previously, as expected;

"The biggest problem with RTT is that more testing (like in NCLB) is used to 'measure' how well a teacher is performing. Unfortunately, standardized testing is a very poor and inaccurate measure of the effectiveness of a teacher. This only serves to chase away good talent into the private sector as well as skewing public perception of otherwise good teachers in the eye of the public."

Where did you think the merit-based system came from? The Tea Party?

"Ok, you lost me on that one. Where was the hypocrisy on my part? Did I ever say I was against teacher accountability? Or for teachers putting their own self-interest above the welfare of their students?"

Except that has nothing to do with why the teachers were protesting. They were protesting the proposed censorship of the district's curriculum, scrubbing anything anti-America out of it (ie putting their students first). You know, indoctrination kind of stuff (which has nothing to do with standards - FYI)...
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2014 10:23:45 AM

"So now suddenly you are FOR RTT - a federal government program?"

What does any of that have to do with Race to the Top? Anyway, I never said what my position of the compensation policy changes was; I just thought the way that the local teachers union used the students, and sacrificed their education, to further the teachers' negotiations was sleazy.

"They were standing up for exactly the issue you have spoken against! Thanks for showing your true hypocritical nature and complete disdain for teachers in general..."

Ok, you lost me on that one. Where was the hypocrisy on my part? Did I ever say I was against teacher accountability? Or for teachers putting their own self-interest above the welfare of their students?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 25, 2014 8:23:04 AM

"It's a shame the teachers not only walked out on their students, but then involved them in their extortion scheme to avoid accountability."

Are you kidding? They were standing up for exactly the issue you have spoken against! Thanks for showing your true hypocritical nature and complete disdain for teachers in general...

"Sorry to disappoint you, but this isn't about anything so noble as free speech. It's all about the money, specifically, the raises that ineffective teachers would not get under the new merit-based compensation policy."

So now suddenly you are FOR RTT - a federal government program? Like I said, hypocrite -and a part of the problem.

SMH
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 24, 2014 10:37:41 PM

Yeah, I was in Denver the day the "sick-out" happened. It's a shame the teachers not only walked out on their students, but then involved them in their extortion scheme to avoid accountability. Sorry to disappoint you, but this isn't about anything so noble as free speech. It's all about the money, specifically, the raises that ineffective teachers would not get under the new merit-based compensation policy.

The review committee that they used as an excuse to protest would function only in an advisory role.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 24, 2014 9:13:01 PM

Now THIS, on the other hand, is the definition of indoctrination (and curriculum, rather than standards)...

ARVADA, Colo. — A new conservative school board majority here in the Denver suburbs recently proposed a curriculum-review committee to promote patriotism, respect for authority and free enterprise and to guard against educational materials that “encourage or condone civil disorder.”
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 24, 2014 10:33:43 AM

"Not yet, but you will. Once it is fully implemented and entrenched, you will remember I tried to warn you."

Again - how are math and reading/writing standards in CC even remotely associated with what you are trying to link them with?

I hope you enjoyed your education on NCLB, RTT, CC and how unrelated they are ;)

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 9/24/2014 10:34:11 AM EST]
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 24, 2014 9:22:06 AM

"I don't see how CC causes kids to be 'indoctrinated' into accepting the US government..."

Not yet, but you will. Once it is fully implemented and entrenched, you will remember I tried to warn you.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 4:00:42 PM

"Teachers do not run the educational system."

Bingo. This is the biggest issue with our current set-up. Politicians, (et al), are running (ruining) the system by trying to make it 'better';

Here is the problem with NCLB - "The Act requires states to develop assessments in basic skills. To receive federal school funding, states must give these assessments to all students at select grade levels. The Act does not assert a national achievement standard."

It is absolutely asinine to tie school funding to testing assessments. All this does is encourage teaching to the tests and fraudulently hiding poor results. NCLB is all about 'assessing' schools to identify which are underperforming, and then punishes said District by taking away money - the opposite of helpful. It doesn't have anything to do with setting standards. much less developing curriculum.

RTT forced CC to be implemented as a prerequisite to be eligible for supplemental Federal funding. It also required many, many other factors to be 'graded' and each state was then ranked based on their grades. Payout was determined by ranking.

The biggest problem with RTT is that more testing (like in NCLB) is used to 'measure' how well a teacher is performing. Unfortunately, standardized testing is a very poor and inaccurate measure of the effectiveness of a teacher. This only serves to chase away good talent into the private sector as well as skewing public perception of otherwise good teachers in the eye of the public.

Similar to NCLB, RTT doesn't dictate what is used in CC. CC is an entirely different subject with regards to education standards and only in two areas - Math and Language Arts (Reading/Writing). Thus I don't see how CC causes kids to be 'indoctrinated' into accepting the US government...
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 3:15:25 PM

"In some cases home schooling can certainly better for the student... Anybody who says otherwise is seeing half of the picture, just like those who think that ALL kids would be 'better off' if homeschooled."

Obviously, homeschooling is not the right fit for all kids, and not feasible for all situations, but many people allow false assumptions about homeschooling to keep them from considering it as an option.

For those who choose to continue utilizing the public school system, or are not in a position to get their kids out of it, I have also addressed the dangers I see in the trajectory of the public education system.

What puzzles me, Weaslespit, is how we can agree on how bad NCLB was and is, and yet disagree on Common Core. CC is just the next step in the same direction as NCLB. As someone who knows the educational system as well as you say you do, I'm surprised by that. I invite you to step back and take an objective look, forget whose project it is, and see it for what it is.

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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 2:29:34 PM

"Keep looking down your nose at teachers - you might finally see you are part of the problem."

I don't look down on teachers in general, I just don't worship them like you do. There are many good ones out there and a few bad ones, but their qualifications, level of professionalism, and level of passion for what they do are all beside the point in the discussion at hand. Teachers do not run the educational system. It's been a very long time since we had actual local public schools, where the teachers were hired by the community and were answerable to the community and the parents. Back then, the education in the US was the envy of the world. Now, parents, the community, even the local school boards have no control over anything that matters in the public schools.

Even if it could be done, taking the public education system out of the hands of the politicians and bureaucrats in D.C. and putting it in the hands of the bureaucrats and politicians at the NEA would not improve the situation. Schools, like the police, must be responsible to the people they serve; that means local control, and for that to happen, the funding must be all local as well. As long as any significant portion of the funding goes through the feds, the feds will call the shots. The same goes for the state governments.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 1:56:15 PM

"I'm trying to show what's right about homeschooling, and how beneficial it can be for the child, both as a student and a person."

In some cases home schooling can certainly better for the student... Anybody who says otherwise is seeing half of the picture, just like those who think that ALL kids would be 'better off' if homeschooled.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 1:53:23 PM

"a pro-home schooling site that you belong to sent out an e-mail that showed homeschooling to be a positive thing."

I'm just providing information that counters an assumption about homeschool students.

"That being said, there is nothing wrong with homeschooling..."

I'm trying to show what's right about homeschooling, and how beneficial it can be for the child, both as a student and a person.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 1:53:19 PM

"Yeah, because having a Master's degree in education automatically makes someone more knowledgeable and wiser than anyone who doesn't have one, right?"

More knowledgeable and wiser in what subject? Education? Most likely...

"I've met and known a number of "professional educators", and some are about as smart as a box of rocks. Several had flunked out of other departments and landed in education because it was the only curriculum they could pass."

More anecdotal evidence to reinforce your POV, as expected. You must have forgotten this which was previously posted;

"Nice deflection. Certainly there are teachers out there who aren't effective, but here is a secret for ya - 'every' profession in America has ineffective workers hence the review process Americans go through with our supervisor's. So your attempt to smear teachers is moot..."

Keep looking down your nose at teachers - you might finally see you are part of the problem.

SMH

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 9/23/2014 1:53:49 PM EST]
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 1:36:07 PM

"Thinking you know 'better' (or even equal to) what a professional educator knows qualifies you as [arrogant]."

Yeah, because having a Master's degree in education automatically makes someone more knowledgeable and wiser than anyone who doesn't have one, right?

I've met and known a number of "professional educators", and some are about as smart as a box of rocks. Several had flunked out of other departments and landed in education because it was the only curriculum they could pass.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 1:30:35 PM

Wow, what a shocking surprise - a pro-home schooling site that you belong to sent out an e-mail that showed homeschooling to be a positive thing.

Shocking!

That being said, there is nothing wrong with homeschooling...
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 1:21:59 PM

I don't have a link to this, since I received it in my email. The endnote references the thesis that the information is drawn from.

>>>Will the home educated grow up to be mentally healthy or not? Will they seek psychological help if they need it? Will they be taught by their parents to shun help? Some of the public wonder. Some researchers wonder.

Researcher Roya Dedeaux recognizes that there is significant diversity and complexity amongst the homeschooling community and its subcultures. With that in mind, she purposed in her study "... to explore the demographics of grown homeschoolers and parents of homeschoolers in the United States, measure their mental health characteristics, including levels of depression, anxiety, overall happiness, prioritization of character strengths, and to understand their attitude towards seeking psychotherapy" (p. 6).[1]

She posited that the information gathered from her study would benefit marriage and family therapists by providing information to help individualize treatment to better serve this particular subset of society. Dedeaux also aimed to help those related to homeschooling be better served "... by gaining access to mental health care that provides culturally-appropriate and empathetic treatment" (p. 6). Two of the research questions follow: "What are the mental health characteristics of grown homeschoolers and parents of homeschoolers in the United States? ... What is the general attitude towards seeking professional psychotherapy of grown homeschoolers and parents of homeschoolers in the United States?"

The subjects of the study were comprised of 1,052 participants between the ages of 18 and 66 who were either a person homeschooled as a minor, or who was a homeschooling parent. They were from a wide range of ethnicities and religious backgrounds, household incomes, and highest level of formal educational attainment. They were or had been involved in homeschooling for a wide range of reasons. The subjects lived in 46 states.

Researcher Dedeaux came to many conclusions. Here is the first: "Homeschoolers appear to have fewer depressive symptoms than the general population" (p. 86). And the second follows: "Homeschoolers who spent more time with other homeschoolers reported fewer depressive symptoms" (p. 86).

Digging further, she found the following: "Grown homeschoolers and homeschooling parents were found to have overall happiness levels that mirror the general population. Unschoolers had a higher mean score on the OHQ [than others in the study], showing more indicators of happiness. Individuals who had prior therapeutic treatment had slightly higher levels of happiness ..." (p. 87).

Other findings popped up that might not surprise the homeschooling community. For example, consider the following:

When looking at rankings of character strengths, it was found that homeschoolers and unschoolers as a group did not mirror the general population, and had different rankings when compared to each other. ..... For example, both groups of homeschoolers rank "love of learning" in their top five values, yet it does not appear at all in the top five for the general US population. (p. 88)

The researcher found the following regarding anxiety: "Overall, homeschoolers were found to have mean scores far below the clinical cut-off of 39-40. For individuals who had been homeschooled as children, anxiety decreased with age" (p. 87), and "... as a group homeschoolers exhibit less anxiety than the general population ..." (p. 89).

Finally, this study "... did not reveal any levels of depression or anxiety that appear to have a clinically significant pattern across this population. However, all of the elements that were measured point to a fairly positive attitude toward seeking therapy among homeschoolers" (p. 90).

This study on the mental health of adults who were home educated and homeschooling parents is apparently the first of its kind. The researcher was thorough, well-planned, and careful to state the limitations of her study.

In the end, she found that those she studied had good mental health compared to the general population. Dedeaux also noted that her "... study found that many beliefs held by the general public as well as published materials about homeschooling are inaccurate, For example, this study finds homeschoolers to be very involved with other people in the community" (p. 93). Notably, the researcher concluded the following: "Anxiety and depression levels were found to be below the general population's, and homeschoolers were found to be generally happy" compared to the U.S. population at large.<<<

--Brian D. Ray, Ph.D.
National Home Education Research InstituteNHERI, PO Box 13939, Salem OR 97309, USA

Endnotes:

[1] Dedeaux, Roya J. (2012). An exploratory study on mental health and attitude towards psychotherapy among grown homeschoolers and homeschooling parents. Master's thesis (Master of Science), California State University, Long Beach.

[Edited by: HotRod10 at 9/23/2014 1:22:25 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 12:43:03 PM

"I can't avoid asking the question, what's the real reason for the rule?"

I would expect somebody like you to readily see this - it prevents frivolous lawsuits when parents blame schools for their child having a food allergy reaction while at school, rather than hold their 13-year old accountable as you indicate they should...

But par for the course - blame the schools for this silly rule!

SMH



[Edited by: Weaslespit at 9/23/2014 12:43:26 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 12:38:57 PM

"Yep, just lapping up the conspiracy theories I see. SMH"

It is what is expected from people like him. When you look for anecdotal evidence to prove you POV correct, you'll buy anything that is posted on the internet as justification for your narrow-mindedness.

Like I try to tell him - he is a part of the problem, not the solution (along with items him and I agree are also a part of the problem, like W's NCLB and Obama's RTT).
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 12:34:33 PM

"(CC)...which takes control out of the hands of everyone at the local level, teachers and administrators alike, and concentrates the power in a national structure."

So even though you know the definition of curriculum, you still fail to understand the context. Understood.

"So, thinking for myself equals arrogance."

Um, no. Thinking you know 'better' (or even equal to) what a professional educator knows qualifies you as such.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 12:23:40 PM

13-Year-Old Student Gets Detention For Sharing His Lunch Rather Than Throwing It Away

"the Trinity Alps Unified School District has regulations that prohibit students from sharing their meals. The policies set by the district say that students can have allergies that another student may not be aware of."

I would expect 13-year-olds to know if they have allergies. Teaching kids to throw away food instead of sharing is apparently an important lesson that must be enforced with penalties. I can't avoid asking the question, what's the real reason for the rule?
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Zimcity
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 12:20:09 PM

Yep, just lapping up the conspiracy theories I see. SMH

Take off the tinfoil hat
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 12:09:11 PM

6th Graders Taught How to Use Strap-On Dildo

"The pictures...show a teacher demonstrating how to use a strap-on sex toy in a number of different positions."

"The Secrets of the Fed website also points to a book being given to 4th graders under new Common Core standards entitled It’s Perfectly Normal, which teaches children as young as nine how to masturbate."

Anybody remember when sex was something to be discovered by a husband and wife? Now all the explicit details are taught by influential adults in co-ed classes starting in elementary school. Gee, what could go wrong?
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 11:40:31 AM

"when people make decisions impacting our school system that 'think' they know as much as a teacher they are more than likely acting to the detriment of our system. So thank-you for admitting that you are a part of the problem ;)"

Except that parents have near zero influence over the public schools, even those who have children in them (as a homeschool parent, I have no say in the matter whatsoever). You're the one advocating for CC, which takes control out of the hands of everyone at the local level, teachers and administrators alike, and concentrates the power in a national structure.

"I would expect noting less, since you seem to think you know so much about education... Like I said, arrogant."

So, thinking for myself equals arrogance. Well then, I guess I'm guilty.

"Which is why you perfectly exemplify what I previously posted;"

Ditto

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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 10:53:38 AM

"Thanks, but I'll make up my own mind as to why I believe Denmark's educational system works."

I would expect noting less, since you seem to think you know so much about education... Like I said, arrogant.

"You may say it's because of the qualifications of the teachers..."

No. Another positive, but not the main reason.

"I didn't miss your point, I just came to a different conclusion. It's called having my own opinion. I know it's frustrating having someone think for themselves instead of blindly accepting your POV, but I have faith in you that you'll get used to it eventually."

Which is why you perfectly exemplify what I previously posted;

'Simply amazing, but then again there is a lot of distrust of the government out in those sparsely populated Western states which clouds the judgment. People are fiercely independent (to a fault) and don't like to be told what is good for them - even if the person who is doing the telling is right.'

"Thank you for recognizing the flaw in your theory. No matter how qualified our teachers are, if their methods and content are dictated to them, they will never be more effective than what is allowed by the constraints placed on them by the system."

You are correct in saying that it doesn't matter how qualified a teacher is, when people make decisions impacting our school system that 'think' they know as much as a teacher they are more than likely acting to the detriment of our system. So thank-you for admitting that you are a part of the problem ;)

BTW - hint there as to why Denmark's schools are so much better than ours... ;)
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 4:40:42 PM

"Keep trying - I'll let you know when you have finally understood the biggest difference between the US and Denmark with regards to education. ;)"

Thanks, but I'll make up my own mind as to why I believe Denmark's educational system works. You may say it's because of the qualifications of the teachers, but I contend it's because of competition. Can you prove your one leg is more important to their success than mine? Although, objectively comparing the quality of education across nations, languages, and cultures, is effectively impossible in most subjects anyway. Math proficiency might be the only one that can be truly compared.

"Unfortunately you keep missing the point."

I didn't miss your point, I just came to a different conclusion. It's called having my own opinion. I know it's frustrating having someone think for themselves instead of blindly accepting your POV, but I have faith in you that you'll get used to it eventually.

"Implementing one aspect does no good when it is built on a flawed foundation."

Thank you for recognizing the flaw in your theory. No matter how qualified our teachers are, if their methods and content are dictated to them, they will never be more effective than what is allowed by the constraints placed on them by the system. If the goal of the those running the system is a society of docile, ignorant subjects, then that is what will be produced. It comes back to the central question: Do you trust the government to educate your children? My answer is a resounding NOOOOOOO!
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 12:17:50 PM

"The standards dictate what the students must learn in order to advance in their education."

Correct - and the standards don't indicate such minutiae so as to 'brain-wash' kids into complacency with our government. My goodness...

"It seems to be working for Denmark, which you said was the model we should be following."

Unfortunately you keep missing the point. Implementing one aspect does no good when it is built on a flawed foundation. Try sitting on a stool that only has one leg - it doesn't matter how good that leg is, you are going to fall.

Keep trying - I'll let you know when you have finally understood the biggest difference between the US and Denmark with regards to education. ;)

"...other than to exert control over as many aspects of their lives as possible."

THAT is the only ulterior motive you can come up with? I expect better from a conspiracy theorist. You better turn in your card.

"If you put your children's education under the control of the government, you have already completely trusted it."

Again - curriculum is not controlled by the government. You looked up the definition but failed to grasp the meaning.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 10:46:22 AM

"Please learn the difference between 'standards' and 'curriculum'"

I know the difference - standards are what determines the curriculum. The standards dictate what the students must learn in order to advance in their education. The curriculum is the method by which the standards are met.

"And [the voucher system] has also brought us rampant corruption and last-second school closures leaving kids (and parents) in the lurch. What a great solution!"

It seems to be working for Denmark, which you said was the model we should be following.

So, your solution for failing public schools is to trap the students in them so they continue to fail without competition?

"Yeah, how dare they force me to wear a seat belt! There MUST be some ulterior motive there."

Who's deflecting now? Well, since you brought it up, there is no reason for the government to stop people from endangering themselves, other than to exert control over as many aspects of their lives as possible. If someone wants to risk putting their head through the windshield, I say let them; it'll weed out the stupid ones, resulting in a smarter society.

"Nobody is saying you should blindly trust the government 100%."

If you put your children's education under the control of the government, you have already completely trusted it. You just won't see come to fruition for a couple of decades.

[Edited by: HotRod10 at 9/22/2014 10:50:39 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 10:22:53 AM

"Yours is an all-too-common arrogance that assumes that some number of years of "study" automatically translates into understanding, caring, motivation, and the ability to teach effectively."

Nice deflection. Certainly there are teachers out there who aren't effective, but here is a secret for ya - 'every' profession in America has ineffective workers hence the review process Americans go through with our supervisor's. So your attempt to smear teachers is moot...

"I read the propaganda piece you posted, and a few other summaries. It appears that their system is similar to ours..."

Wow - then you didn't comprehend what you read.

"...or the child is an independent thinker, which is unacceptable in a school where conformity is paramount."

Yeah, you shouldn't have to follow the rules! Tell those kids to say that to the Officer - 'B-b-b-b-b-b-ut I'm an independent thinker!'

Another sad deflection of reality. Blame the schools, it isn't the parents fault.

SMH

"Kids are taught, beginning usually before the age of 5, from a curriculum approved by the government, what could go wrong?"

100% incorrect. Curriculum is solely the responsibility of the School District. Please learn the difference between 'standards' and 'curriculum' so you can speak intelligibly on the subject in the future.

"The voucher system that allows private education to compete on level footing with the public system is probably the major reason for the success they have achieved."

And has also brought us rampant corruption and last-second school closures leaving kids (and parents) in the lurch. What a great solution!

"That assumes that the person is wrong in their mistrust of the government, which is an assumption not supported by the evidence."

Yeah, how dare they force me to wear a seat belt! There MUST be some ulterior motive there. <takes tin foil hat back off>

"I find having faith in the benevolence of the government to be the naive perspective."

Nobody is saying you should blindly trust the government 100%. Another nice attempt at a deflection...



[Edited by: Weaslespit at 9/22/2014 10:27:29 AM EST]
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rdamurphy
Sophomore Author Denver

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Message Posted: Sep 21, 2014 12:38:11 AM

Ho tRod amen got your message and totaly agree! homeschooled here loved it every day!

why are libs so against it? you know why and i know why and maybe even they know why but dont want to admit it it is because government schooling is the first step in to brain washed zombielike state FOR THE STATE!!!! ok let me explain for the public school educated ones
your not thinking clearly so its dumbed down like this you are IN A ZOMBIE LIKE STATE (of mind) for the STATE (government you worship with President Obama as your messiah!!!)
straight up thats it

Ho tRod10 you spelled it out and I dotted the i!!!! team work!

thanx!

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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 21, 2014 12:21:00 AM

"there is a lot of distrust of the government out in those sparsely populated Western states which clouds the judgment."

...or allows for a clearer perspective. I find having faith in the benevolence of the government to be the naive perspective.

"People are fiercely independent (to a fault) and don't like to be told what is good for them - even if the person who is doing the telling is right."

That assumes that the person is wrong in their mistrust of the government, which is an assumption not supported by the evidence.

"or have home issues that causes them to act - their parents see one kid who can 'do no wrong and is a perfect angel', the school sees the real behavior of the child..."

...or the child is an independent thinker, which is unacceptable in a school where conformity is paramount.

"Yours is a special case in that your arrogance makes you think any adult is as equipped to teach their child as somebody who spends 6 years studying to become a professional."

Yours is an all-too-common arrogance that assumes that some number of years of "study" automatically translates into understanding, caring, motivation, and the ability to teach effectively.

"What is it exactly that you think you know suddenly about Denmark that would make you post such an inane comment as that?"

I read the propaganda piece you posted, and a few other summaries. It appears that their system is similar to ours with a couple notable exceptions: compulsory attendance at either a public or private school (curriculum at private schools is the same as in public schools), and a voucher system.

The first, I obviously would consider a downside and the reason for my "inane comment". I can't imagine anything critical of government ever passes the "Ministry of Education" to be disseminated to the students. Kids are taught, beginning usually before the age of 5, from a curriculum approved by the government, what could go wrong?

The voucher system that allows private education to compete on level footing with the public system is probably the major reason for the success they have achieved. Competition breeds excellence; without it you have the dismal failure that the US public school system has become. Although, despite the supposedly high educational achievements, the standard of living is lower than that of the US.

[Edited by: HotRod10 at 9/21/2014 12:23:06 AM EST]
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 3:18:24 PM

.
. 75% of American adults are totally unqualified to be teachers... but that won't stop them... remember when Jay Leno used to interview them in the streets?
.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 2:40:24 PM

"I would say my wife and I know our kids better than anyone else....Only someone incredibly arrogant would think otherwise."

One with experience educating hundreds of kids could call that thinking 'naïve' if you attempt to apply that to every parent. Most kids at the Elementary level indeed are good, well-behaved and try their best. Few either have physical/mental disabilities that are discovered and treated through various forms (therapy, medication, special instruction etc) or have home issues that causes them to act - their parents see one kid who can 'do no wrong and is a perfect angel', the school sees the real behavior of the child....

In many cases you are correct - in some the parents can't see the forest for the trees. Yours is a special case in that your arrogance makes you think any adult is as equipped to teach their child as somebody who spends 6 years studying to become a professional. Simply amazing, but then again there is a lot of distrust of the government out in those sparsely populated Western states which clouds the judgment. People are fiercely independent (to a fault) and don't like to be told what is good for them - even if the person who is doing the telling is right.

"I'm sure the Danes have taught their children well how to be good little subjects..."

What is it exactly that you think you know suddenly about Denmark that would make you post such an inane comment as that? Let me guess - shooting form the hip again? What a shame, you probably didn't even bother to read the link.

"Deride me if you will, but the one speaking out of ignorance is you."

Coming from a conspiracy theorist, I'll take that as a compliment. ;)
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 10:56:04 AM

"Please. You are speaking with your tin foil hat on now... I know the courses that were taken and they do not teach 'indoctrination'. "

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Since your viewpoint obviously aligns with what's being taught, you don't see a problem with it. Some of us are not so blind to the truth. Some of us have read and understood the history of other societies who went down this path, saw how it turned out for them, and don't want that to happen here. Deride me if you will, but the one speaking out of ignorance is you.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 10:46:44 AM

"As long as people think teachers are no-better equipped to teach kids than their parents, things won't get better."

If children under the influence and control of the state is "better", I hope it it gets worse. Ultimately, the responsibility for a child's education should rest with the parents. Thankfully, there are still a few states like mine where (at least currently) it is written into the state constitution that parents have the ultimate authority over their child's education.

"Kids are 'very' adept at snow-balling their parents. You seem to underestimate their abilities."

They're at least as good at snow-balling their teachers. I would say my wife and I know our kids better than anyone else. Even if they went to school somewhere and spent a couple hours with each of 4 teachers in a class with twenty-some other students, I believe I would still know them better by far than any of those teachers. Only someone incredibly arrogant would think otherwise.

"It doesn't have to be that way. Denmark has proven it..."

I'm sure the Danes have taught their children well how to be good little subjects...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 9:20:25 AM

"I don't claim to know it all but I know Islam is not a country. My kid came home from school with an assignment to do a report of the country of Islam."

Correct - Islam is a religion. The Islamic State (ISIS) thinks that they are a country...

As MM said, I would get clarification from the teacher.
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 8:02:30 PM

"My kid came home from school with an assignment to do a report of the country of Islam."

Did you contact the teacher to inquire about it?

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johnnyg1200
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 6:06:30 PM

I don't claim to know it all but I know Islam is not a country. My kid came home from school with an assignment to do a report of the country of Islam.
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 5:12:01 PM

.
< "liberal idealogy" >

. That's code for telling the truth... instead of psychotic religious lies...
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