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Author Topic: Health Care Cost Reductions Outlined By Reducing Costly C-Sections. High Paid Doctors Finally Caving Back to Topics
SemiSteve

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 8:29:36 AM

USA Today

Guilt overcomes OBGYNs at last as they admit what Midwives have been saying for decades.

Too many C-sections are costly and dangerous. Allowing birth to proceed naturally has a better outcome in 85 to 90 percent of cases than interventionist doctor-knows-best policy.

What's next? Will we actually be seeing more births using affordable midwives? As they do in other countries with lower birthing mortality rates?

Using expensive surgeons to attend complication-free births is the same as using a 6-figure petroleum scientist to do oil changes.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2014 11:03:56 AM

No, nobody said that. As usual AC-302's memory is hard at work rewriting the posts of others. The misconstrued statement was more like there is a bond created during natural birth which is not as strong for C-Section. And this is true in animals as well. As a matter of fact some animals will reject their own baby if a C-Section is performed. Part of the bond has to do with going directly from the birth canal to the breast. And more C-Section babies have a hard time nursing from the breast than natural birth babies. Breast milk and the nipple area contain some anti-bodies which help prevent disease, as well, which are not found in formula. No 'udder' milk is a good! -wink-
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2014 10:49:35 AM

"And what of your assertion that a woman can only love her baby if she FEELS the pain of birth? "

What? Did anyone really say that? I'm not sure "love" is the emotion provoked by labor. Wow.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2014 8:05:34 AM

"I think it's wrong to deny a doctor and a hospital to any woman who even thinks she wants one."

Then don't advocate for that. I certainly haven't.

Millions of homes and most natural birth centers are within 20 minutes of a hospital. Since it takes 20 minutes to prep an OR then when the decision is made to deal with a transfer because of a complication then even if that were to occur in a hospital it's going to take 20 minutes to prep the OR. The patient could be transported during that time. That's the way it has been working for decades.

Complications are very rare in low-risk births. Midwives are trained to tell whether a mother is low risk or high risk. Midwives do not perform high-risk births. Those are the 10 to 15 which should be attended by a physician.

Really, all of your concerns have already been worked out. What stands in the way is many doctors do not inform their patients of all of their options. Most pregnant women do not even realize that this is a possibility. They are not told so they do not consider what their options are.

It is a little known fact that midwives have better birth outcomes than doctors do.
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NickHammer
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2014 11:49:48 PM

>>But I think it's wrong to deny a doctor and a hospital to any woman who even thinks she wants one.<<

That's a strawman argument, AC. Steve never said that. What he's saying is that healthy women with uncomplicated pregnancies aren't being told that they have the option to have a birth naturally and not in a hospital. And the reason they are not giving women this information is so that they can make more money.

It's funny. With the high costs of healthcare and health insurance and the ability to save billions of dollars each year (almost $2 billion alone "if non-physician mothers received the same kind of treatment as physician-mothers") by reducing unnecessary c-sections, it seems that this would be something that you righties would be all over - doctors performing unnecessary operations (fraud), you are paying for other people to have babies, etc.

Yet, almost to a tee, you righties disagree with Steve, not by producing any facts, but by resorting mainly to ridicule, nonsensical arguments, or outright lying (right, EZ?). In other words, it appears that the ONLY reason you all disagree with the point of the thread is that it was started by Steve and not a fellow righty.
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AC-302
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2014 10:43:38 PM

SemiSteve said, yet again: "A doctor attended birth costs about $8,000. A midwife attended birth cost about $3500. Only 10 to 15 percent of births require a doctor"

--Ok, ok.. are we on this midwife kick again? Here we go... no doctor or hospital for the birth? What about unforseen complications? They do happen, Steve, and more often then you might guess.

And if a doctor says a woman needs a cesarean, what are you going to do? Wait for a second opinion while she's in labor in the hospital? I think your premise is not a good one.

And what of your assertion that a woman can only love her baby if she FEELS the pain of birth? Don't think that I forget when you make bad assertions, Steve. I think if a woman WANTS a midwife and an at-home birth, more power to them. But I think it's wrong to deny a doctor and a hospital to any woman who even thinks she wants one.
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SE3.5
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2014 1:29:59 PM

Someone will surely ask for this. It may be too long to work.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/political-ties-top-billers-medicare-053637053.html?soc_src=copy
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SE3.5
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2014 1:28:10 PM

From the NYT--today

"MIAMI — Two Florida doctors who received the nation’s highest Medicare reimbursements in 2012 are both major contributors to Democratic Party causes, and they have turned to the political system in recent years to defend themselves against suspicions that they may have submitted fraudulent or excessive charges to the federal government.

The pattern of large Medicare payments and six-figure political donations shows up among several of the doctors whose payment records were released for the first time this week by the Department of Health and Human Services. For years, the department refused to make the data public, and finally did so only after being sued by The Wall Street Journal.

Topping the list is Dr. Salomon E. Melgen, 59, an ophthalmologist from North Palm Beach, Fla., who received $21 million in Medicare reimbursements in 2012 alone. The doctor billed a bulk of his reimbursements for Lucentis, a medication used to treat macular degeneration made by a company that pays generous rebates to its doctors.

Dr. Melgen’s firm donated more than $700,000 to Majority PAC, a super PAC run by former aides to the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada. The super PAC then spent $600,000 to help re-elect Senator Robert Menendez, Democrat of New Jersey, who is a close friend of Dr. Melgen’s. Last year, Mr. Menendez himself became a target of investigation after the senator intervened on behalf of Dr. Melgen with federal officials and took flights on his private jet."

Doctors of both parties are fleecing Medicare and the politicians don't care. I wonder why?
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2014 1:09:37 PM

It's about time the medical industry admitted they are fleecing the USA. Not all doctors are bad. Few are, really. But the system they have created favors them at the expense of patients. Most women are never even told that they have the option of using a midwife for birth. Since their GYN will usually be their OB, if the doctor tells them of all their options the doctor risks losing business. That's the despicable part. By omitting this information the doctor does the patient a disservice which yields him a profit.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2014 9:32:54 AM

Most industrialized nations with lower health care costs and better outcomes utilize more midwives than the USA.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2014 11:09:10 PM

It is a good thing military doctors don't think like you, mud, or else we wouldn't have any.

What about Doctors Without Borders? Are they just in it for the money? Or is it that they do a good job because it is the right thing to do; and they get a strong sense of accomplishment and purpose in life when they are effective.
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NickHammer
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2014 12:23:28 PM

>>--I posted what I posted, and linked to the information, do you want me to come over and hold your hand too? This isn't going to happen.<<

So, EZ, let me get this straight. You claimed that "a vaginal birth tends to bring upon the longer hospital stay and slower recovery". When I said that what you wrote isn't true, you claimed you got your information from a CDC report about birth rates, then called the government "pathological liars".

But that information isn't in the report you "linked to", is it? If it was, you would simply point to it. But it isn't, so you resort to a whole host of fallacies - ridicule, inventing strawmen about what I believe, ad hominem attacks, and hypocritically calling others liars to cover up your own lies.

But, hey, I'm a stand-up kind of guy. Prove me wrong and I'll apologize. Show me exactly where in that CDC report it validates your claim - the page number, the quote - and you'll get a big, fat apology from me for everything I wrote in this post.   But you have to prove it.
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2014 8:00:22 PM

SS: "They do a good job because it is the right thing to do; and they get a strong sense of accomplishment and purpose in life when they are effective."


Wanna come over to my place SS and clean out my garage for less that what you can earn cleaning out someone else's garage or even by staying home on welfare? You'll get a strong sense of accomplishment and purpose in life by doing that; I guarantee it. :)


mudtoe
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2014 4:26:49 PM

"So Americans can go wherever they want to buy stuff, but OB Gyns are NOT free to make their money elsewhere, do I have this correct?"

--OB/Gyns are of course free to set up shop anywhere they please.

That is one of the problems with the for-profit medicine model. One hopes that every town has health care facilities to cover the needs of the community. But if no doctor wants to cover an area then it is left without. If we had government-run health care then doctors would work for the government and there would be near-universal regional coverage similar to postal service. The government would succeed where the for-profit model fails.

Look at it this way. We have military doctors and facilities which work very well for our troops and elected officials. I see no reason why that type of system can not be expanded to cover the whole nation. Everybody would have health care and nobody would have to worry about having it tied to a job. Nobody would have to pay for insurance so they would have the money to cover the extra taxes required. In many cases they would not even notice it because for workers it would simply be a paycheck deduction just like now.

Military doctors are motivated by duty to do a good job. Of course they are well-paid but they are not making a killing and are not motivated to perform well simply for the money. They do a good job because it is the right thing to do; and they get a strong sense of accomplishment and purpose in life when they are effective.

The very fact that people get into medicine just for the money and some become very rich from the suffering of others is disgusting. We can and should do better than this system. Then toss in the greed of big pharma paying perks to doctors to prescribe their meds is sickening. And big insurance is just as bad being the middle-man with their hand out taking a cut every time somebody needs medical care. No wonder health care is so expensive and ineffective in the USA. No wonder other nations do it for half and their people live longer.


[Edited by: SemiSteve at 3/24/2014 4:27:33 PM EST]
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2014 12:10:43 PM


"--All of these things do occur. The total frequency of all of these put together accounts for approx 10-15% of all births. But American Doctors perform costly C-Sections in 30% of all births. Why more than double? Since Doctors can do more C-Sections than vaginal births in a day, then they can earn more money this way."

AFSNCO: "OK...I have been thinking about this statement and this is just BS. The problem is they can only do so many of any birth because there is a limited number of pregnant women. You just cannot go out and create more pregnancies to have more births to do more in one day. That is a physical impossibility! It is amazing what people will believe what they read and never give it any logical thought.

If 100 women are due in a given day and 100 women go into labor they will only be able to do 100 births. You cannot just create more... "

--Very astute. But the fact remains that an individual doctor can increase his/her SHARE of births (and therefore profits) by jacking up their own C-Section rate. Which explains why too many C-Sections are done. If this policy is adopted by a local hospital then that hospital can increase their own turnover of patients, thereby depriving others of volume. This could also easily explain why there are so many hospital births and so few midwife-attended birth center and home births.
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AFSNCO
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Message Posted: Mar 3, 2014 10:45:13 AM

"--All of these things do occur. The total frequency of all of these put together accounts for approx 10-15% of all births. But American Doctors perform costly C-Sections in 30% of all births. Why more than double? Since Doctors can do more C-Sections than vaginal births in a day, then they can earn more money this way."

OK...I have been thinking about this statement and this is just BS. The problem is they can only do so many of any birth because there is a limited number of pregnant women. You just cannot go out and create more pregnancies to have more births to do more in one day. That is a physical impossibility! It is amazing what people will believe what they read and never give it any logical thought.

If 100 women are due in a given day and 100 women go into labor they will only be able to do 100 births. You cannot just create more...
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2014 7:45:32 PM

A doctor attended birth costs about $8,000. A midwife attended birth cost about $3500. Only 10 to 15 percent of births require a doctor.

But we are doing over 93 percent of our births with doctors.

That's a lot of money being wasted. And it's all coming out of our healthcare dollars.

And the really crazy thing is that midwives have better outcomes.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Feb 27, 2014 7:17:27 AM

"You're going to believe like Steve that doctors are capitalistic evil in this world (but deny it is class envy), and your minds are made up."

There's no need to embellish things. Valid criticism does not equal class envy. The 'evil' label is all yours too. Just because some doctors have allowed greed and ego to triumph over good decision making does not mean all doctors do that.

Women and infants are being impacted negatively. People are getting rich for the wrong reasons and others are paying the ultimate price. The more words you put into my mouth, the more wild exaggerations you attempt to obfuscate with, the more I will calmly restate my case.

It is now clear that we are paying too much and getting poor results. This affects everyone who pays into the healthcare system. We can do better. And we should.

The OP link shows that a national consensus of doctors agree.
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AC-302
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Message Posted: Feb 27, 2014 1:28:57 AM

High Paid Doctors Finally Caving

--So what are health care professionals supposed to do? Are they supposed to work for free in order to make you happy?
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EZExit
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Message Posted: Feb 27, 2014 12:11:59 AM

Nick: <<<"But if you have to make things up, then your claims most likely aren't valid.">>>

Nick: <<<"When you're done with your unnecessary government-bashing, perhaps you can clue me in to exactly where in your link your "information" is contained.">>>

--I posted what I posted, and linked to the information, do you want me to come over and hold your hand too? This isn't going to happen. Especially with your confrontational attitude. You're going to believe like Steve that doctors are capitalistic evil in this world (but deny it is class envy), and your minds are made up. Is there really any point in the two of us discussing this topic any further?

Nick: <<<"There are reasons to perform C-Sections and, in fact, both of my girls were delivered that way (the first one was an emergency c-section)">>>

--I am glad that the emergency Cesarean apparently went well, if all that was present was a midwife without the skills or the equipment on hand to intercede with life saving equipment, it could have ended badly like some births did 100 years ago.
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NickHammer
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2014 10:45:37 PM

>>--Steve's viewpoint when he states, <<<"When doctors can make so much more money by doing c sections it's easy to understand.">>><<

That doesn't make it class warfare.

 
>>--It's possible, my information came from the CDC, and we both know the government is a pathological liar on their "studies", look at how much they have lied with climate data for example...
National Vital Statistics Reports<<

When you're done with your unnecessary government-bashing, perhaps you can clue me in to exactly where in your link your "information" is contained.
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EZExit
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2014 9:48:41 PM

Nick: <<<"Ah yes, the cry of the right - "class warfare". And this is based on what exactly?">>>

--Steve's viewpoint when he states, <<<"When doctors can make so much more money by doing c sections it's easy to understand.">>>

<<<"Also of note, a vaginal birth tends to bring upon the longer hospital stay and slower recovery."

In fact, that's not only NOT true, but it's actually the exact opposite of what you claimed.">>>

--It's possible, my information came from the CDC, and we both know the government is a pathological liar on their "studies", look at how much they have lied with climate data for example...
National Vital Statistics Reports

[Edited by: EZExit at 2/26/2014 9:49:10 PM EST]
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NickHammer
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2014 8:35:51 PM

>>I think that this topic is yet another veiled attempt at class warfare directed at physicians. The premise that a doctor offers options to a patient and steers them to one procedure over another for financial gain is ridiculous, and turns my stomach.<<

Ah yes, the cry of the right - "class warfare". And this is based on what exactly? Hopefully not your claim one sentence earlier:
- "Also of note, a vaginal birth tends to bring upon the longer hospital stay and slower recovery."

In fact, that's not only NOT true, but it's actually the exact opposite of what you claimed. A few sites that back up my claim are Women's Healthcare Topics, the National Library of Medicine of NIH, and The Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada.

There are reasons to perform C-Sections and, in fact, both of my girls were delivered that way (the first one was an emergency c-section). But if you have to make things up, then your claims most likely aren't valid.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2014 6:51:52 PM

Anybody interested in this huge waste of healthcare dollars can learn a lot from this book, written by Marsden Wagner, a physician who is also a scientist; and was director of Women's and Children's Health at the World Health Organization:

Born in the USA: How a Broken Maternity System Must Be Fixed to Put Women and Children First

"In this rare, behind-the-scenes look at what goes on in hospitals across the country, a longtime medical insider and international authority on childbirth assesses the flawed American maternity care system, powerfully demonstrating how it fails to deliver safe, effective care for both mothers and babies. Written for mothers and fathers, obstetricians, nurses, midwives, scientists, insurance professionals, and anyone contemplating having a child, this passionate exposé documents how, in the most expensive maternity care system in the world, women have lost control over childbirth and what the disturbing results of this phenomenon have been. Born in the USA examines issues including midwifery and the safety of out-of-hospital birth, how the process of becoming a doctor can adversely affect both practitioners and their patients, and why there has been a rise in the use of risky but doctor-friendly interventions, including the use of Cytotec, a drug that has not been approved by the FDA for pregnant women. Most importantly, this gripping investigation, supported by many troubling personal stories, explores how women can reclaim the childbirth experience for the betterment of themselves and their children.

Born in the USA tells:

* Why women are 70% more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe

* What motivates obstetricians to use dangerous and unnecessary drugs and procedures

* How the present malpractice crisis has been aggravated by the fear of accountability

* Why procedures such as cesarean section and birth inductions are so readily used "
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2014 6:49:16 PM

'the left has to start demonizing physicians'

--Baloney. I am hardly the first to be critical of the medical industry. If they didn't mess up so bad and if they hadn't done it for so long they would not face any flak.

And it is a darn good thing that some scrutiny be applied. They used to routinely X-Ray pregnant women until the outcry of deformed births became overwhelming. They also used to drug mothers, bond them at the wrists, and try to pull babies out. All because of an egotistical refusal to listen to what midwives have learned over the centuries.

So now they are doing too many C-Sections. That's the issue today. And finally the wheels are coming off of that. They can no longer defend high C-Section rates. Some places over 40%!

What they need to do is back off of all the interventions and take another look at natural birth.

Here's how birth should be conducted in the USA:

Pregnant women are pregnant. They are not sick! They don't need medicine. They need a birth specialist to help them through the process. Midwives are exactly that. Well trained midwives are able to discern whether a birth is high risk very early on. High risk births should be performed by the high-risk birth specialists, OB Physicians.

The 85 to 90% of births that should be performed naturally can be done either at home or in a birthing center in a comfortable soothing setting where the mom can move around instead of being tethered in one uncomfortable position by probes and leads and tubes. Midwives know that physical motion aids the birthing process. Doctors have mistakenly (and foolishly) discounted that effect.

Birthing centers are best located within 15-20 minutes of a hospital with an OR. Since it take 20 minutes to prep an OR, should there be a surprise a quick call can begin that process as the mother is transported.

The profit motive and ego have made this thing entirely too complicated - with terrible results!
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EZExit
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2014 6:07:30 PM

Steve: <<<" So it's all about the money. OBs can make more money elsewhere so that's where they go.">>>

--Yet, in other threads, you try to persuade people to shop elsewhere, other than places like Walmart. So Americans can go wherever they want to buy stuff, but OB Gyns are NOT free to make their money elsewhere, do I have this correct?

<<<"I've heard there are not enough GPs. Reason being that the med students are attracted to specialties instead. Why? Because they pay more.">>>

--Again you want others to live and have ambitions as you see fit. How do you plan to accomplish this? Should the government dictate to each person their lot in life and tell them that they must be educated accordingly? I spent some time in a lengthy post in one of your other threads explaining what is happening to the medical field, but you never acknowledged it or responded. I had hypothesized that you didn't like the answer, and that's OK, you are free to have your opinion.
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2014 5:38:02 PM

EZ: "I think that this topic is yet another veiled attempt at class warfare directed at physicians."


You are absolutely right about that because physicians have the ability to destroy Bozocare by refusing to accept patients with Bozocare insurance. The left can't allow this, so they have to start demonizing them as preparation to somehow try to force them to see these patients and to accept what government decides to pay them. Watch and see, the use of coercion against physicians is coming soon.


mudtoe
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2014 3:39:08 PM

"You are seeing less and less OB docs out there also because of the high rate of liability. There are some places in our country, Ohio specifically, where the smaller cities have none and they have to travel to larger cities just for OB care. "

--Ahh. So it's all about the money. OBs can make more money elsewhere so that's where they go. Sad. If only practicing medicine was primarily about taking care of the patients. Seems like it used to be; but more and more it appears to be greed-driven these days. I've heard there are not enough GPs. Reason being that the med students are attracted to specialties instead. Why? Because they pay more.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2014 2:50:56 PM

"Often times a mother to be elects for Cesarean for a multitude of reasons, including avoiding risks of oxygen deprivation to child due to birth canal compression on the umbilical, trauma to the child from forcep or vacuum extraction, decreased risk of incontinence, eliminating risk of tears or painful episiotomy, planning including selecting the actual birthday of the child, lowering risk of pelvic organ prolapses, and preservation of vaginal integrity. Additionally, the child may not be in a good position or a good candidate for a natural vaginal birth."

--All of these things do occur. The total frequency of all of these put together accounts for approx 10-15% of all births. But American Doctors perform costly C-Sections in 30% of all births. Why more than double? Since Doctors can do more C-Sections than vaginal births in a day, then they can earn more money this way.

And frequently they can't be bothered to take the time to let nature take it's course. Records show that more babies are born at or around 5PM and at or around 11PM than any other time of day.

Why?

5PM birth spike: Doctor wants to get home for dinner.

11PM birth spike: Doctor wants to get to bed.

"Also of note, a vaginal birth tends to bring upon the longer hospital stay and slower recovery."

--One thing is for sure. If it is going to take longer then a doctor can't do as many per day. A lower turn-over rate = lower pay.

"I think that this topic is yet another veiled attempt at class warfare directed at physicians. The premise that a doctor offers options to a patient and steers them to one procedure over another for financial gain is ridiculous, and turns my stomach."

--Contrary to what some doctors may think about themselves, they are not God. They are human; and they are subject to all the same temptations, pitfalls, mistakes, and errors of judgement as any other human. This is why there are medical boards and punishments for doctors who violate their code of ethics. State Medical Board records are FILLED with entries of infractions showing all types of abuse of patient trust from cheating, to sexual molestations, to abuse, to self-prescibement of illegal drugs, to stealing, to bill padding, to fraud and the all-to-obvious indications of absolute undeniable raw GREED.

The only issue of class warfare here would be how many doctors abuse their positions of power to RIP OFF the people they are supposed to be devoted to helping. Unless you are prepared to claim that no medical board records of such infractions exist?
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jayrad1957
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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2014 12:25:59 PM

AFS, he is a GP. The cap applies to all fields.
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AFSNCO
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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2014 11:45:10 AM

Jay, is he an OB?
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EZExit
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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2014 11:41:15 AM

Often times a mother to be elects for Cesarean for a multitude of reasons, including avoiding risks of oxygen deprivation to child due to birth canal compression on the umbilical, trauma to the child from forcep or vacuum extraction, decreased risk of incontinence, eliminating risk of tears or painful episiotomy, planning including selecting the actual birthday of the child, lowering risk of pelvic organ prolapses, and preservation of vaginal integrity. Additionally, the child may not be in a good position or a good candidate for a natural vaginal birth.

Also of note, a vaginal birth tends to bring upon the longer hospital stay and slower recovery.

I think that this topic is yet another veiled attempt at class warfare directed at physicians. The premise that a doctor offers options to a patient and steers them to one procedure over another for financial gain is ridiculous, and turns my stomach.
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jayrad1957
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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2014 11:25:15 AM

AFS, liability is really not a problem out here. Settlements have been capped at $250,000 in California for years. A doctor friend of mine a few years ago said as far as insurance goes, his rates are pretty good here compared to other states.
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AFSNCO
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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2014 11:09:08 AM

"My wife is an RN. Her observation over the years is the Docs are in a hurry to deliver the babies. Too many other patients, the urging of the hospital to get the patients in and out, TEE time, all play into this. The shorter stay mom has in the delivery room, the lower the cost for the hospital."

You are seeing less and less OB docs out there also because of the high rate of liability. There are some places in our country, Ohio specifically, where the smaller cities have none and they have to travel to larger cities just for OB care.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2014 6:45:53 AM

"The shorter stay mom has in the delivery room, the lower the cost for the hospital."

And the greater the profits.
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jayrad1957
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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2014 1:37:53 PM

"Obviously there are far too many c-sections going on. I wonder why?"

My wife is an RN. Her observation over the years is the Docs are in a hurry to deliver the babies. Too many other patients, the urging of the hospital to get the patients in and out, TEE time, all play into this. The shorter stay mom has in the delivery room, the lower the cost for the hospital.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2014 1:23:05 PM

AFSNCO: "And if they do not do a C-Section on a complicated pregnancy they get sued and a lawyer makes 100 times what that doctor made all year."

Absolutely true. And so is the following: Most births do not have complications. 85 to 90 percent of all birds are complication free. The C section rate in the United States it's about a third of all births. Obviously there are far too many c-sections going on. I wonder why? When doctors can make so much more money by doing c sections it's easy to understand.
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AFSNCO
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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2014 1:12:28 PM

"I must take issue with this. What they're not saying is if a natural birth takes all day then a doctor can do one vaginal birth in a day. But a doctor can do 3 C-sections in one day. A Dr that has a high C section rate can make a lot more money than a doctor that waits for natural birth."

And if they do not do a C-Section on a complicated pregnancy they get sued and a lawyer makes 100 times what that doctor made all year.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2014 9:57:02 AM

"The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says doctors earn roughly the same amount of money, whether they deliver a baby vaginally or via C-section."

I must take issue with this. What they're not saying is if a natural birth takes all day then a doctor can do one vaginal birth in a day. But a doctor can do 3 C-sections in one day. A Dr that has a high C section rate can make a lot more money than a doctor that waits for natural birth.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2014 12:12:05 AM

Jeep: "Studies have found that rates of C-sections are related to malpractice insurance premiums, as well as state limits on what patients can collect from lawsuits, the report says."

You notice nobody addressed this? That is because the reason they resort to C-section is because any woman that is considered high risk means high risk for a law suit also. To go in and just cut the baby out is safer than having a woman have complications during natural birth and then take the doctor to court for not doing a C-section. If the law protected a doctor during natural birth from lawsuits then we may see a decrease in the number or C-sections.

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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2014 12:05:40 AM

"Vermin right up until you need a lawyer."

Then you get their bill and you realize they are still vermin.
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EZExit
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 10:54:24 PM

Steve: <<<"Affordable midwives already work in the USA. And they are required to carry malpractice insurance. But guess what? Insurance for midwives is far cheaper than insurance for doctors because midwives hardly ever get sued for complications. When a midwife gets sued it is usually a doctor suing her for practicing medicine without a license because doctors have been trying to stamp out midwifery in the US. When a doctor get sued it is because the patients family is upset with the outcome of malpractice.

People are more satisfied with their midwife experience than they are with their doctor experience.">>>

--Where did you get this from? In some states a liability insurance policy for midwives is not necessary. Also, in some states midwives don't need to be licensed. There is more to medicine than simply going through a generic checklist with a smile and a good attitude. The next time you need medical treatment, ask yourself whether you would like to have the expertise of someone that has devoted a considerable amount of study in the science of medicine, or if you are fine with someone that can simply follow the generic checklist. I would think that someone such as yourself would be leery of anyone that is left completely unregulated by the federal government.

Remember: Today's medications are tomorrow's litigations.
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jayrad1957
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 9:07:41 PM

"lawyer vermin"

Vermin right up until you need a lawyer.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 7:23:04 PM

"I didn't know midwives are not getting slammed by insurance like Doctors. However there needs to be protective legislation because they will get hit eventually.

We need to save our healthcare from the lawyer vermin"

Much of big corporate America has found an easy way around the lawyer problem. The standard get-out is when you sign up for a service or purchase a product you agree to a pages of legaleze which essentially strips you of your rights. You generally agreed to arbitration instead of bringing a lawsuit. And of course the arbitration is run by, guess who, the corporation. It seems that actually what happens is they have these private courtrooms and "judges" who in something like 99.9% of the cases decide, of course, in favor of the corporation.

All that is required is for the medical community to jump on this bandwagon. That way you have no rights and they hold all the cards. If that's the kind of system you want then I'm sure health care costs could be reduced that way. But of course like any big for-profit corporation they would not pass those cost reductions on to you the consumer. They would keep all of the extra profits for themselves.
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e_jeepin
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 1:07:03 PM

I didn't know midwives are not getting slammed by insurance like Doctors. However there needs to be protective legislation because they will get hit eventually.

We need to save our healthcare from the lawyer vermin

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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 10:42:36 AM

ej: "This is an issue of "defensive medicine" driven by trial lawyers (Democrat donors), not Doctors watching the clock, what time is golf. OblunderCare purposely ignored tort reform to protect trial lawyer donors. If there is a birthing complication, a lawyer will rush to the scene, sirens blaring!"


Yup. The marketplace will "compensate", and by that I mean that malpractice rates will continue to go up as their compensation under Bozocare goes down, and because of that OBGYNs will continue to leave the business and newly graduated MDs won't choose OBGYN as their specialty.

Of course OBGYSs will continue to be available to women who can afford to pay cash for their services. We are transitioning to a two-tiered health care system in this country. The top tier, where the best of everything is available, will be reserved for those patients who can pay cash on the barrel-head for services. The second tier will be for everyone else who can't, and will consist of rationed second rate care, just like in Britain.


mudtoe

[Edited by: mudtoe at 2/20/2014 10:42:54 AM EST]
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jayrad1957
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 10:26:59 AM

My wife used a midwife for her pregnancies. She wouldn't have done it any other way. Not once was she pressured to deliver early. I would hope more women would learn about the advantages of using a midwife.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 10:20:08 AM

"Midwives can never work in the US because they wont earn enough to pay for the outrageous insurance."

Affordable midwives already work in the USA. And they are required to carry malpractice insurance. But guess what? Insurance for midwives is far cheaper than insurance for doctors because midwives hardly ever get sued for complications. When a midwife gets sued it is usually a doctor suing her for practicing medicine without a license because doctors have been trying to stamp out midwifery in the US. When a doctor get sued it is because the patients family is upset with the outcome of malpractice.

People are more satisfied with their midwife experience than they are with their doctor experience.

nst just demonstrated that to be a -bonafide- fact.
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nstrdnvstr
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 9:44:38 AM

e jeepin, don't confuse SemiSteve with facts.

I must point out, however, that you are wrong about midwives never being able to work in the US. My last two daughters were born at home with midwives.
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e_jeepin
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 9:15:30 AM

Guilt???!! caving??!!

I'm not a doctor, bu play one on TV

This is an issue of "defensive medicine" driven by trial lawyers (Democrat donors), not Doctors watching the clock, what time is golf. OblunderCare purposely ignored tort reform to protect trial lawyer donors. If there is a birthing complication, a lawyer will rush to the scene, sirens blaring!

OBGYNs pay the highest malpractice insurance of all doctors -- in the SIX-FIGURE range annually in some "hot States" where baby doctors are fleeing or quitting altogether. There is now a shortage in many places.

Women will continue to be on the losing end of this because Democrats bow to Trial Lawyers first, ordinary people last. Midwives can never work in the US because they wont earn enough to pay for the outrageous insurance.

You will never hear a Democrats propose tort reform in healthcare because a lawyer PAC will quickly throw a blanket over them, and beat liberally with wiffle ball bats.

Notice the last words of the article -- voids the author's false conclusions of lazy/greedy Doctors:

"Studies have found that rates of C-sections are related to malpractice insurance premiums, as well as state limits on what patients can collect from lawsuits, the report says."

Lawyers and politicians have killed our healthcare, Doctors just react.

Women will lose more than ever before under oblundercare -- good luck finding a baby-doctor who will accept low govt mandated reimbursement.

Talk about the war on women! Democrats own this too.


[Edited by: e_jeepin at 2/20/2014 9:20:29 AM EST]
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