Not Logged In Log In   Sign Up   Points Leaders
Follow Us    8:53 AM

Message Forum - Read Message

Category: US politics > Topics Add to favorite topics   Post new topicPost New Topic
Author Topic: More back door gun control Back to Topics
oilpan4

Champion Author
Virginia

Posts:13,234
Points:326,330
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Oct 30, 2013 8:53:03 PM

It appears that the last remaining lead smelting plant will be closing in December.

Lead smelting plant closure

The inmates running the asylum over at the EPA see fit to increase the air quality around the plant by 10 times for no reason what so ever. This will close the last lead smelting plant that has been open since 1892 in an effort to solve the non-problem of lead exposure which mainly comes from lead based paint dust in old houses and water contamination due to lead solder used in plumbing of old houses.
Sounds to me like the problem is old houses, but since old houses don't make bullets they are strangely off the EPA radar.

I am sure at some point the plant may reopen but they may not be able to compete with lead from china.

The company makes no mention of this.
The evil lead smelting plant

The only thing the EPA is accomplishing is further damaging the environment elsewhere. Since Doerun produces around 11% of the worlds lead supply. The producer most likely to take up the slack is china which we know has horrible environmental policies.

[Edited by: oilpan4 at 10/30/2013 8:54:01 PM EST]
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
Profile Pic
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

Posts:18,552
Points:805,885
Joined:May 2004
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 4:15:11 PM

"This is an interesting point that you raise. I have not previously read or heard of anyone hypothesising that elevated dust and soil lead levels along train tracks may be from the dust lost during the transport of coal by train. I have heard of or read of several other explanations for the elevated levels typically reported along train tracks (eg on the Harbour Bridge AND around Sydenham Station when ceiling dust lead levels were measured by the Sydney Aircraft Noise Insulation Project - although I've not heard of a study in your area) including the following sources:

the red paint of "red rattlers" (the old carriages which preceded the silver ones we now have)
lead was apparently used as a lubricant between the overhead wires and the pantograph ["A device on the roof of an electric locomotive or multiple unit through which electric power is drawn from the overhead wires" REF: http://collectionstrust.orangeleaf.org/railway/railobjp.htm
lead brake linings
lead emissions from coal-burning steam trains
dust lost from uncovered loads of lead ore or lead concentrate being transported"
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,234
Points:326,330
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 1:31:11 PM

"Probably the lead around railroad tracks was from the coal burning locomotives that travelled it in years past."

Not all coal but a lot of it contains mercury and thorium.
Mercury boils around 600'F so there should be at least some Hg if the source is burned coal.
The thorium on the other hand does not boil off is radio active so it would be real easy to detect. Clinkers and fly ash are actually some of the best sources of thorium ore.
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,234
Points:326,330
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 1:25:15 PM

Mined lead is galena or lead sulfide.
Naturally occurring Lead sulfide is not readily absorbed by plants and animals. Thanks to millions of years of evolution and naturally occurring lead.

After the lead has been smelted and turned into products you get the possibility for it to be incredibly toxic.
Lead paint contains lead oxide and lead sulfate, very toxic and readily absorbed. Lead that has weathered is mostly lead oxide and lead carbonate, very toxic and very absorbable. Lead from car batteries, same thing, lead oxide and lead sulfate.
One thing that most people are not aware of is hot dipped galvanized zinc products contain up to 1% or 2% lead in the zinc coating. Maybe more if said products came from china.
Profile Pic
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

Posts:18,552
Points:805,885
Joined:May 2004
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 1:14:30 PM

Probably the lead around railroad tracks was from the coal burning locomotives that travelled it in years past. The clinkers were often just emptied on the tracks as the train moved along.
Profile Pic
btc1
Champion Author Lexington

Posts:21,814
Points:865,490
Joined:Aug 2006
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 1:00:28 PM

Oilpan, I just do not think they are thinking about it much. I believe the lead mostly comes from the braking action and rail friction possibly. IDK for sure. A lead mine is a lot more obvious than a railroad.
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,234
Points:326,330
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 11:25:40 AM

"Oilpan, I will give you this. There is most likely more lead contamination on most railroad beds than just about anywhere else. They should be tested. I did that once at a jobsite and it was amazingly high. About 100ppm. We freaked and then realized where it was coming from. Still, it needs to be done."

See that's really good to know. I live by the rail yard but I am on city water, people in other areas might be by a rail yard and have well water.

Still makes you wonder why the EPA goes after a relatively safe lead mine instead of the rail road or lead filled houses. My guess is the rail road has a lot more money and lobbyists than the lead mine and no one cares if someone else's kid eats lead paint chips.
Profile Pic
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

Posts:18,552
Points:805,885
Joined:May 2004
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 10:09:22 AM

"BACKGROUND
? The Clean Air Act requires EPA to set national ambient air quality standards for pollutants
considered harmful to public health and the environment. National standards exist for six
pollutants: nitrogen dioxide, ozone, particulate matter, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, and Pb.
? On November 12, 2008, EPA substantially strengthened the National Ambient Air Quality
Standards for Pb (73 FR 66934). EPA revised the level of the primary (health-based) standard
from 1.5 micrograms per cubic meter (µg/m3) of Pb to 0.15 µg/m3 of Pb measured in TSP and
revised the secondary (welfare-based) standard to be identical in all respects to the primary
standard.
? To be consistent with the revised Pb air quality standards, in 2008, EPA also revised the
performance-based requirements for Pb FEMs in the lead method test procedures (Part 53.33).
Specifically, EPA lowered the Pb concentration range at which the FEM comparability testing is
conducted to a range of 0.045 to 0.375 ?g/m3 and established a minimum method detection limit
at 0.0075 µg/m3.
? Although the existing FRM is adequate, the new FRM offers advantages over it by addressing the
improved measurement sensitivity (detection limits) needed in response to the tightened Pb
standards. This rule recognizes advances in measurement technology that have occurred since
promulgation of the original FRM in 1978, and takes advantage of improved extraction methods
that are now available with impr'oved precision, sample throughput, and extraction efficiency."

My link is a bit more reader friendly

What are the Canadian limits?
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,136
Points:3,821,930
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 8:24:52 AM

Surely you know there is a Canada US Air Quality Agreement signed 20 years ago, and updated regularly? We have had, and continue to have, cross-border co-ordination on many air quality issues.
The 2010 report is found on the EPA website.
The 2012 report is found on the Environment Canada site, and also on the EPA website.
Profile Pic
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

Posts:18,552
Points:805,885
Joined:May 2004
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 6:21:15 AM

Maybe Canada and environmentally-conscious Canadians should be concerned with their own country. I'd like to see their regulations for smelting. Or are they trying to corner the metals market? Closing the U.S. smelter will have an effect on Canada's economy.

"Canada is the world’s largest zinc and second largest nickel and lead producer. Canada's zinc and lead production in 2003 was pegged at 744,037t and 77,140t respectively.

Most of Canada’s base metals are hosted by massive sulphide sources (e.g. the Sudbury complex) as well as porphyry deposits (e.g. the Highlands Valley Porphyry). Zinc mines have been found in every province and territory with the exception of Alberta and Prince Edward Island."
link to source

[Edited by: teacher_tim at 11/5/2013 6:22:23 AM EST]
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,136
Points:3,821,930
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 6:09:36 AM

Because there was a better understanding and clear evidingce of the dangers of lead poisoning, it was the CDC that lowered the levels in the human body that define elevated.
To ensure those levels are attainable, obviously everything that can be done to reduce exposure has to be done.
A major shift has been done to PRIMARY PREVENTION from reactive treatment. While it is true exposure to leaded paint in older homes is still a major source of poisoning, it is overly simplistic to claim that is the MAJOR source. There is still contaminated soil in most urban areas from the use of leaded gasoline, enough that it is the 2nd highest source of lead poisoning. Soil around older homes tend to have contaminated soil around them, which gets tracked in by people and pets.

This focus is nothing new, studies go back over 100 years.
Lead Poisoning in the United States

I repeat, if the current plant cannot meet latest standards, the company has the option to build a new one. If the company chooses not to, it is unfortunate, but that is no reason to toss out or ignore new standards meant to protect health of the public.
Profile Pic
btc1
Champion Author Lexington

Posts:21,814
Points:865,490
Joined:Aug 2006
Message Posted: Nov 5, 2013 1:17:57 AM

Oilpan, I will give you this. There is most likely more lead contamination on most railroad beds than just about anywhere else. They should be tested. I did that once at a jobsite and it was amazingly high. About 100ppm. We freaked and then realized where it was coming from. Still, it needs to be done.

I just do not like equating this to conspiracy theories. It makes it nonsense.

I am glad your lead and mercury levels are normal.

[Edited by: btc1 at 11/5/2013 1:19:10 AM EST]
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,234
Points:326,330
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 2:55:01 PM

"What is even more astounding, the OP is blaming this on gun control!"

What do you think it is?
The mine and smelting plant was fine until the EPA decided to lower the allowable limits forcing them to close.
What was so wrong with the old standards?
I don't mind giving up lead in ammo so much, it opens the door to so many more possibilities. Once you remove lead you can much more easily get bullets like the banned black talon and armor piercing bullets.

"Maybe the author of the OP has had an overexposure of lead or maybe even mercury to come up with the reasoning in this thread".

I get tested for Pb and Hg levels every year for my job and I am well below levels of concern, on par with non industrial workers.
Nice attempt at a personal attack other wise.

"Really sad that some think we should not be protected from toxins in air, ground and water"

We are concerned. Since the banning of leaded gasoline environmental lead and lead levels in the population have been dropping ever since.
We just find it strange that most lead poisoning victims are not poisoned by industry or mining but the very houses they live in, yet that is not the focus of the nanny government that is here to protect us from our selves.

If that's all you are going to bring to this topic please do us all a favor and don't.
Profile Pic
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

Posts:18,552
Points:805,885
Joined:May 2004
Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 9:40:37 AM



"According to the International Lead Zinc Study Group (ILZSG), global demand for lead is expected to increase 5 percent in 2013 and an additional 4.6 percent in 2014. Demand for lead in the U.S. is expected to increase by 7.6 percent in 2013, bolstered by both original equipment purchases of new vehicles and replacement purchases of lead-acid batteries."
U.S. and Global Demand for Lead on the Rise

Just out of curiosity, what do you use to balance your tires, get your fishing bait to the bottom and connect your jumper cables to?
Profile Pic
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

Posts:18,552
Points:805,885
Joined:May 2004
Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 9:35:19 AM

ASTOUNDING! That anyone would even CONSIDER using the power of a government agency to advance a political agenda, right Lois Lerner and company?

It would seem to me that a lead smelter would be strategically important to the U.S. If we end up going to war with China [not inconceivable], should we just buy our bullets from them?

Of course, we COULD just borrow some from DHS.
Profile Pic
btc1
Champion Author Lexington

Posts:21,814
Points:865,490
Joined:Aug 2006
Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 7:38:39 AM

Maybe the author of the OP has had an overexposure of lead or maybe even mercury to come up with the reasoning in this thread.

Really sad that some think we should not be protected from toxins in air, ground and water.

What is even more astounding, the OP is blaming this on gun control!

[Edited by: btc1 at 11/4/2013 7:41:23 AM EST]
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,136
Points:3,821,930
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 2:33:07 AM

There are still about 3,000,000 workers (not children nibbling on paint ships) exposed to lead poisoning in the USA. I don't know about you, but I don't find that any more acceptable than uranium poisoning, mercury poisoning, or any of the other myriad things we can actually attempt to control.
This smelter could be replaced by a cleaner facility if the existing one can not be upgraded further. It is a company decision, right or wrong, not to do so.

[Edited by: rumbleseat at 11/4/2013 2:36:27 AM EST]
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,136
Points:3,821,930
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 2:20:55 AM

Lead in drinking water is not so much an allowed level, it is legally an action level.
Potential health effects:
"Infants and children: Delays in physical or mental development; children could show slight deficits in attention span and learning abilities.
Adults: Kidney problems; high blood pressure"
"Lead and copper are regulated by a treatment technique that requires systems to control the corrosiveness of their water. If more than 10% of tap water samples exceed the action level, water systems must take additional steps. For copper, the action level is 1.3 mg/L, and for lead is 0.015 mg/L."
Source: EPA

Lead in Water:
CDC

There is no logical reason to NOT reduce the risk of lead poisoning. If you wait for signs and symptoms to appear, dangerous levels have already accumulated in the body.
There is very good reason lead was removed from gasoline
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,234
Points:326,330
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Nov 3, 2013 11:06:18 AM

"In other words, there is no known amount of lead that is too small to cause the body harm."

Then why are there allowable lead levels in home drinking water?
Why does OSHA sets exposure limits for the work place?
Why can some one buy a house with lead paint in the walls after they sign a waver?

"China is moving thousands of people at great expense after the discovery of at least 1,000 cases of children with lead poisoning, and they are closing over 30 smelters, the source of it."

China waits for it to potentially kill lots of people before they do something. Our government closes our one lead smelter for no reason, mean while almost all cases of lead poisoning in the U.S. come from old homes and they do nothing about it.
So its clearly more about politics than protection.
They should be renamed the Environmental Politics Agency.
Profile Pic
wbacon
Champion Author Philadelphia

Posts:15,565
Points:3,432,725
Joined:Jun 2004
Message Posted: Nov 3, 2013 4:02:53 AM

what do you expect from this marxist?
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,136
Points:3,821,930
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Nov 3, 2013 3:46:08 AM

China is moving thousands of people at great expense after the discovery of at least 1,000 cases of children with lead poisoning, and they are closing over 30 smelters, the source of it.
Profile Pic
greentre
Champion Author Pensacola

Posts:1,281
Points:397,305
Joined:Oct 2011
Message Posted: Nov 2, 2013 10:48:12 PM

"It wasn't until the last half of the 20th century that we came to realize what a small amount is necessary to actually cause harm."

180 grains of lead accelerated to 2000 feet per second will cause great harm. ;-)

The EPA and other alphabet soup groups in government are the greatest harmful product threatening the economy and stability of this country.
Profile Pic
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:25,136
Points:3,821,930
Joined:Oct 2002
Message Posted: Nov 2, 2013 5:54:28 PM

Lead has no known physiologically relevant role in the body.
There are many harmful effects.
Lead poisoning is one of the oldest known work and environmental hazards.
It wasn't until the last half of the 20th century that we came to realize what a small amount is necessary to actually cause harm
There has not been a safe threshold for lead exposure determinined.
In other words, there is no known amount of lead that is too small to cause the body harm.
Profile Pic
AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

Posts:30,000
Points:3,313,120
Joined:Aug 2004
Message Posted: Nov 2, 2013 11:24:29 AM

Even during smelting, there are remediation technologies that can be implemented. But again, there is no such thing as "zero" when you're dealing with analytical chemsitry. All you can say is "below detection limit". The tests are only accurate down to PPM, PPB or sometimes PPT levels. The tests can be inaccurate below some level. But that isn't conclusive proof of "zero".

So then we get to "safe" limits of things in the body, like heavy metals. What many enviro-idiots don't understand is that the human body NEEDS small amounts of heavy metals in the body. For example - if you have literaly ZERO lead in your body, you will die. Life requires us to have all the elements from 1 - 92 in our bodies in varying quantities (with the exception of 43, which is not naturally occuring). OK, so since we have now established that you actually NEED some lead, we now introduce the concept of "safe and reasonable levels". Admittedly there will always be some folks who are more sensitive. (ever heard of folks getting rid if their mercury fillings, and their diseases go away?) There are and must be acceptable levels established that are not "zero".
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,234
Points:326,330
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 2:48:58 PM

" The EPA once wanted to shut down and move a whole town in Colorado because their soil had lead in it."

Naturally occurring lead is Galena, aka Lead Sulfide.
Not readily absorbed by plants and animals.
This just shows how stupid they are.

Naturally occurring lead like the stuff they mine is not very hazardous. Its remains a relatively inert substance till its smelted.
Underground lead miners have surprisingly low lead levels in their blood.
Profile Pic
johnnyg1200
Champion Author St. Louis

Posts:7,596
Points:1,087,210
Joined:May 2011
Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 9:44:15 AM

More jobs for China.
Profile Pic
AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

Posts:30,000
Points:3,313,120
Joined:Aug 2004
Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 12:46:15 AM

The EPA are complete idiots. Here, now. I used to work for a company that used lead solders. There is a calculation we had to provide CAL EPA and CAL OSHA based on the amount of lead we used - and there is a known error in the calculation. Our company was threatened with legal action by some kooky environmental group unless we settled out of court (AKA: Shakedown). We sent them a letter back showing the correct calculations, then basically said to these fools "Well be happy to see you in court". To this day - no response.

But getting back to US EPA, that's a problem. The EPA once wanted to shut down and move a whole town in Colorado because their soil had lead in it. They claimed it would save lives. Never mind the fact that the residents didn't necessarily have high levels of lead in their bloodstreams. A better way to spend the money would have been for the EPA to pay for a new road to the town to be built. A newer, safer road would have saved more lives, certainly more than moving a town.
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,234
Points:326,330
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Oct 30, 2013 9:04:15 PM

Lead prices are up about 6% in the last month.

Historical Lead prices
Post a reply Back to Topics