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Author Topic: Fundamental Differences In Conservative And Liberal Views Back to Topics
SemiSteve

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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2013 12:24:31 PM

It may be helpful to recognize the fundamental differences in conservative and liberal views.

We seem to be repeatedly revisiting some of the same basic concepts and spending enormous efforts trying to convince the other side why our view makes more sense.

One of them I have noticed is the treatment of the poor.

Conservatives seem to feel that the poor are poor simply because they are lazy. That if they just got determined enough and worked hard enough in the right way that they could climb out of the poverty cycle.

Liberals seem to hold that they are poor because opportunities available to others are not available to them. And they blame the rich policy-makers for systematically doing things that limit these opportunities.

Do you concur?

If so, why do we need to re-argue what has already been covered? This forum is great for learning what makes the 'other side' tick; but would be better if we could move on from the same-old same-old and try to arrive at some solutions or equitable compromise suggestions to send off to our representatives.

What other subjects can you identify the views of both sides on?
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Apr 26, 2015 12:20:47 AM


sgm4law, "So now atheists can take credit whenever there's an absence of religious display or speech?"

When they work so hard to make it so, yes.

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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 7:23:34 PM

gas_too_high -"Jefferson clearly saw his "wall" as protecting religion from the state, not protecting the state from religion. The wording of the First Amendment supports that view as well, as the twin religious clauses of the First Amendment would otherwise be seen as in conflict."

As we've seen many times in history, protecting religion from the state requires protecting the state from religion.

"Keeping nonsectarian religious symbols off public property does nothing to defend religion against the state."

It helps to keep the State from getting involved with religion, which would probably lead to State control of religion,

Panama19 -"It excludes the religious people, and tells them that they are not welcome."

It doesn't exclude them, it just prevents them from excluding the rest of us.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:23:06 PM

Just an observation; It seems conservatives are more tolerant of Bruce Jenner coming out as transgender than Democrats are of him claiming himself as a conservative/Republican.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 2:15:44 PM

"It excludes the religious people, and tells them that they are not welcome."

So, you're saying that if there is no religious symbol on a building, you don't feel welcome? How on earth do you do any shopping or errands? Where do you buy your gas?

Give me a break.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 2:14:21 PM

"Seems to me that atheists have the lion's share of public display time."

Wow. So now atheists can take credit whenever there's an absence of religious display or speech? Just wow.
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 1:06:08 PM

Except for Christmas, Hanukkah and maybe Ramadan there are no religious displays at all. Seems to me that atheists have the lion's share of public display time.

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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 1:02:39 PM

"No. Atheists just want public property to remain neutral on religion"

Constitution does not mandate that. It just says there will be no STATE religion. I have no problem with a creche on city hall lawn at Christmas. If you want to put up a menorah, that's ok with me. Put the crescent and star up during Ramadan - OK by me.

To bad liberals aren't tolerant. Everything has to be THEIR way.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 11:54:51 AM


SemiSteve, "But they don't. So that is not an atheist display. It is no display. It is neutral. It suggests that this place is open to everyone. It excludes no one, favors none. It is our public place where all are welcome."

It excludes the religious people, and tells them that they are not welcome.



[Edited by: Panama19 at 4/25/2015 11:56:38 AM EST]
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 8:37:31 AM

SemiSteve, "No. Atheists just want public property to remain neutral on religion."

Panama19: "Keeping religious expressions off of the public square is not neutral - it is capitulation to the atheist position."

It would be more accurate to say it favors the agnostic position. If public places displayed messages to the effect of "There is no god;" that would favor the atheist position.

But they don't. So that is not an atheist display. It is no display. It is neutral. It suggests that this place is open to everyone. It excludes no one, favors none. It is our public place where all are welcome.
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 7:39:25 AM

"No. Atheists just want public property to remain neutral on religion"

Too bad that's not true.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:20:55 AM


gas_too_high, well stated!

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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2015 3:19:57 AM


SemiSteve, "No. Atheists just want public property to remain neutral on religion."

Keeping religious expressions off of the public square is not neutral - it is capitulation to the atheist position.

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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 9:49:03 PM

Panama19 - "Atheists are trying to prohibit the "free exercise thereof" for religious people. They are NOT following the Constitution."

rjhenn: "Actually they're trying to preserve the "wall of separation between church and state" that Jefferson thought so important to religious freedom."

The phrase "wall of separation between church and state" does not appear in the Constitution. And reading the 1802 letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association, where that phrase does appear, the meaning is different from ours.

Jefferson clearly saw his "wall" as protecting religion from the state, not protecting the state from religion. The wording of the First Amendment supports that view as well, as the twin religious clauses of the First Amendment would otherwise be seen as in conflict.

Keeping nonsectarian religious symbols off public property does nothing to defend religion against the state.

GTH

[Edited by: gas_too_high at 4/24/2015 9:49:27 PM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 9:19:16 PM

Panama19 - "Atheists are trying to prohibit the "free exercise thereof" for religious people.

They are NOT following the Constitution."

Actually they're trying to preserve the "wall of separation between church and state" that Jefferson thought so important to religious freedom. Too many conservatives and religious want to undermine that wall to promote their own religion, which would ultimately end religious freedom in this country.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 7:58:49 PM

"And all that because they wanted the ten commandments up. Including the one about doing unto others as..."

That's not one of the commandments; that's the Golden Rule.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 6:56:28 PM

No. Atheists just want public property to remain neutral on religion.

No favoritism is the only fair thing to do. Offends no one.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 6:40:09 PM


Panama19 - "Only atheists have a problem with religious displays on public property."

rjhenn, "That's because they actually believe in the 1st Amendment..."

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Atheists are trying to prohibit the "free exercise thereof" for religious people.

They are NOT following the Constitution.

First Amendment

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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 6:18:22 PM

Personally I don't agree with religious symbolism on public property. It's silly to make a fuss over symbols when the God of all creation is with me and in me everywhere I go. I know that puts me in the minority of Christians, but I don't care about that.


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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:47:58 PM

"That's not the same as being on government-owned property, thus being government-sponsored"

Being on government owned property isn't the same as government sponsored.
Government sponsored would involve tax money in its creation. Churches rent out public park pavillions and preach away all the time.

Semisteve, do you know how ridiculous you look attributing my quotes to other posters just so you can comment on them?
How petty can you get?
Its also dishonest.
So much for your alleged higher standards of posting that you claim to have.
I'm glad everyone can see it.


[Edited by: theTower at 4/24/2015 5:53:07 PM EST]
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 5:05:07 PM

Starke? Putting up a monument to atheism on public property?

Wow. I have been to Starke. Lots of hi-rises there. No, not buildings. Pick-up trucks with lift kits and suggestive adornments dangling from their trailer hitches.

That's too funny. They are getting a monument to atheism at the Bradford County Courthouse. I wonder how long until it is vandalized.

Well, I apparently stand corrected that atheists don't try to put up symbols on public property. But apparently it was not a first move, but one made in response to a silly court decision. I guess the judge figured there were no atheist symbols so he ruled they could put up what he thought didn't exist. So they created one.

-rolling eyes-

What next?

I'll have to visit it before it gets trashed.

I bet it gets paint splattered on it and set ablaze; if not chiseled into or pulled over by a big truck.

And all that because they wanted the ten commandments up. Including the one about doing unto others as...
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 4:08:27 PM

P19: "The SPLC is viewed by many as a hate group itself"

sgm: "Probably by those people who follow the mental gymnastics that says people who mention the racism of others are thus themselves racists."

No, actually the John Birch Society, a far-right group labelled a 'Patriot Group' by the SPLC. The John Birch Society opposed the Civil Rights Act in 1964, calling it 'communist.'

The John Birch Society published the piece that P19 quoted. Their attack on the SPLC is merely an offense offered to counter the categorization of the John Birch Society, as a 'Patriot Group'.
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:32:16 PM

Atheists to unveil first monument to unbelief on public land


After years of fights over religious monuments on public land, a county courthouse in Northern Florida will soon be the home of the nation’s first monument to atheism on public property.

On June 29, the group American Atheists will unveil a 1,500-pound granite bench engraved with secular-themed quotations from Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and its founder, Madalyn Murray O’Hair, among others, in front of the Bradford County Courthouse in Starke, Fla.

The New-Jersey-based group, which has a membership of about 4,000 atheists, humanists and other non-believers, won the right to erect the monument in a settlement reached in March over a six-ton granite display of the Ten Commandments on the same property.



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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:29:33 PM

Panama19 - "it seeks to label everyone to the right of Obama an ‘antigovernment extremist’

Based on what we see here every day, are they wrong?Strange, they're anti-government, but they want the government to try and impose THEIR religion on everyone else.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:22:22 PM

theTower - "They are in public view."

That's not the same as being on government-owned property, thus being government-sponsored.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:19:14 PM

Panama19 - So, you've got maybe a dozen examples of left-wing "hate groups" to counter the hundreds on the right.

M
theTower - "The SPLC is viewed by many as a hate group itself"

Probably because they expose hate groups.

Panama19 - "Southern Poverty Law Center, widely viewed as an extremist anti-Christian hate group"

Because they expose supposedly 'christian' groups that are anything but?
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:14:28 PM

"The SPLC is viewed by many as a hate group itself"

Probably by those people who follow the mental gymnastics that says people who mention the racism of others are thus themselves racists.
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:11:21 PM

"Again, private property, not public."

They are in public view.
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theTower
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:04:32 PM

I didn't say that.
I quoted semisteve
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 2:01:24 PM

theTower - "Atheists COULD have anti-religion symbols such as signs proclaiming there is no God, or glorifying Darwin. They COULD have an organization that tries to convert believers into atheists, along with symbols and messages. But they DON'T."

Again, private property, not public.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:56:20 PM

I75at7AM - "That is Failed Leftist Tactic Number 2 - marginalize your opposition."

Can't be too much of a failure because you see the right-wingers around here doing the same thing in almost every post.

As you just demonstrated.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:50:44 PM

MiddletownMarty -"Billboard"

Which is on private property, not public.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:45:23 PM

wtexan - "
Leftist have slaughtered multi millions ... but they don't "hate" anybody. <eyes rolling>"

Do have RW haters.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 1:43:24 PM

Panama19 - "Only atheists have a problem with religious displays on public property."

That's because they actually believe in the 1st Amendment which, among other things, was intended to keep government from promoting any one particular religion. Of course, to religionists, that only means 'from promoting any religion other than mine.'
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 11:18:00 AM


theTower , "The SPLC is viewed by many as a hate group itself"

Exactly; unthinking ideologues lack a sense of proportion.

"With its latest hate-mongering tirades, the Southern Poverty Law Center, widely viewed as an extremist anti-Christian hate group, has descended to comedic new lows, earning ridicule and criticism even from the establishment media that in the past have often parroted its screeds as credible.

... the SPLC itself has become increasingly discredited, Orwellian, and detached from reality as it seeks to label everyone to the right of Obama an ‘antigovernment extremist’ or even a ‘hate’ group. Consider that, according to the extreme leftist outfit, opposition to redefining marriage is now a hallmark of what it calls the ‘radical right.’

As recently as three years ago, however, Obama was still against using government in an attempt to redefine the institution. Was Obama secretly a member of the ‘radical right’ until recently? The SPLC did not say."

"Anti-Christian Hate Group" SPLC Becoming Increasingly Discredited

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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 11:00:46 AM


SemiSteve, "Well it looks like a lot of work has been done to locate these few examples; and I presume that is all which can be found."

No, just a quick search, grabbing the first few that fell to hand.

As I said, "...there are many more examples of leftist hate groups, but this should give you a taste"

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SE3.5
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:58:26 AM

Since we seem to be stuck on the discussion of hate groups, I will pose this. I attend a midwest church that will not marry same sex couples nor allow our facilities to be used for same sex ceremonies. RNorm serves a west coast church with the same beliefs regarding same sex marriage. Could either of our churches be classified as a hate group by someone who compiles such classifications?

Probably.
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theTower
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:39:32 AM

The SPLC is viewed by many as a hate group itself
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:33:56 AM

Interestingly, the SPLC's "hate map" includes both white and black hate groups, and groups of several religious persuasions.
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:26:52 AM

<<Topic: Fundamental Differences In Conservative And Liberal Views>>

Fact: The police are an integral part of government. The federal government has multiple departments with police powers, so do the states. Counties, cities, and towns have police departments. Universities, colleges, and even local school districts have police departments.

The posts in US Politics indicate to me that most liberals trust the government, but don't trust the police, while most conservatives trust the police, but don't trust the government.
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 10:06:49 AM

So semisteve when you say stuff like "I still find plenty of very respectful opposing views. Just none of the nasty ones." and then proceed to ignore those opposing views and disrespect others and insult peoples religious beliefs whats that say about you?
Do as I say not as I do I suppose is what we all can get from that.
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 9:44:22 AM

"And it does pale in comparison to the hundreds of right wing hate groups, of which there are far too many to list here."

Yet you haven't provided a single piece of evidence for your "hundreds of right wing hate groups" claim.

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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 9:30:43 AM

"Well it looks like a lot of work has been done to locate these few examples; and I presume that is all which can be found. I stand behind my original statement."

So even when presented with evidence that directly refutes your claims about atheism and left wing hate groups, you can't admit you were wrong or even allow for the possibility that you may have jumped to yet another one of your endless erroneous conclusions.
And you wonder why people respond to you in the way they do that supposedly "forces" you to place people on ignore.
What a crock.
So when you can't deal with the refutation of your posts, you run and hide by placing posters on ignore.
The gasbuddy equivalent of placing your fingers in your ears and crying out " La la la la la la la"

[Edited by: theTower at 4/24/2015 9:31:38 AM EST]
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MiddletownMarty
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 9:18:04 AM

It was hardly any work at all, and it is vile to equate right wing hate groups with the Christian church.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 9:11:41 AM

Well it looks like a lot of work has been done to locate these few examples; and I presume that is all which can be found.

And it does pale in comparison to the hundreds of right wing hate groups, of which there are far too many to list here. So when comparing a single digit number to a figure which is close to one thousand it is reasonable to describe it just the way I did.

I stand behind my original statement.
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Panama19
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Message Posted: Apr 24, 2015 12:25:35 AM


sgm4law, thanks - I stand corrected.

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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2015 6:10:04 PM

P19, MM and theTower were both quoting semisteve.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2015 3:26:31 PM


MiddletownMarty, "Atheists COULD have anti-religion symbols such as signs proclaiming there is no God, or glorifying Darwin. They COULD have an organization that tries to convert believers into atheists, along with symbols and messages. But they DON'T."

Atheists, agnostics have their own display at Daley Plaza

"Daley Plaza, long home to privately maintained Christmas and Hanukkah displays, now has a giant letter ‘A’ representing the atheist and agnostic community."

In the Spirit: Atheist 'Christmas' displays overtaking religious ones at Capitol

"A UW-Madison atheist group has added three new displays to the state Capitol rotunda this holiday season."

Billboard

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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2015 3:12:17 PM

"Were you both posting those as demonstrations that what Semisteve said was wrong?"

Yes.
Not that it was all that diffucult. Semisteve is usually wrong when he tees off on religion.
And what marty said.
"How is that fundamentally different from billboards that try to get people to realize that we are all evil without God?"


[Edited by: theTower at 4/23/2015 3:15:12 PM EST]
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2015 3:04:40 PM

"Were you both posting those as demonstrations that what Semisteve said was wrong?"

Yes. How is that fundamentally different from billboards that try to get people to realize that we are all evil without God?



[Edited by: MiddletownMarty at 4/23/2015 3:06:02 PM EST]
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2015 3:03:11 PM


SemiSteve, "There are hundreds of right wing hate groups; compared to practically none on the left."

Just to refresh your convenient memory; there are many more examples of leftist hate groups, but this should give you a taste:

Domestic Terrorism - Anarchist Extremism: A Primer

"Anarchist extremism in the U.S. encompasses a variety of ideologies, including anti-capitalism, anti-globalism, and anti-urbanization. There’s also ‘green anarchy,’ an element of anarchist extremism mixed with environmental extremism. The extremists are loosely organized, with no central leadership—although they occasionally demonstrate limited ability to mobilize themselves."

NEW BLACK PANTHER PARTY (NBPP)

"NBPP's earliest roots can be traced to Michael McGee, a former member of the original Black Panthers and a two-term Milwaukee city council member, who in 1990 recruited street-gang thugs and cobbled together a ‘Black Panther Militia.’ ‘They already know how to shoot,’ said McGee. ‘I’m going to give them a cause worth dying for.’ Later that year, McGee arranged a meeting at a local public school to recruit additional members for his new organization. ‘Our militia,’ he told those in attendance, ‘will be about violence. I’m talking actual fighting, bloodshed and urban guerilla warfare’."

Ecoterrorism: Extremism in the Animal Rights and Environmentalist Movements

"During the past two decades, radical environmental and animal rights groups have claimed responsibility for hundreds of crimes and acts of terrorism, including arson, bombings, vandalism and harassment, causing more than $100 million in damage. Although it has been overshadowed by Islamic terrorist threats since September 11, ecoterrorism remains one of the country's most active terrorist movements."

The Violence of The Occupy Movement

"The Occupy movement has a horrific record of violence. Occupy Wall Street Exposed has counted a dozen deaths, including three murders; more than a dozen rapes; more than 25 disgusting cases of indecent exposure, public defecation, etc; more than 500 thefts; more than 6,800 arrests; and in excess of $12 million in property damage. A sorry record by any standard."

Domestic Eco-Terrorism Has Deep Pockets. And Many Enablers.

"These violent acts are the kind of terrorism that historically has been linked to cells of extreme environmental and animal rights activists with names like Earth First!, Animal Liberation and Earth Liberation Front (ELF).

On New Year’s Eve in 1999, for example, arson caused about $1 million in damage to Michigan State University’s architectural landmark Agriculture Hall, damaging offices involved in a project intended to enhance the use and commercialization of crop genetic engineering in developing countries. The Earth Liberation Front … claimed responsibility for the attack"

Anarchist Video Collective


[Edited by: Panama19 at 4/23/2015 3:07:00 PM EST]
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2015 3:00:25 PM

Both of those billboards merely try to get people to recognize that people who don't have religion aren't necessarily evil. Were you both posting those as demonstrations that what Semisteve said was wrong?
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