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Author Topic: Fundamental Differences In Conservative And Liberal Views Back to Topics
SemiSteve

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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2013 12:24:31 PM

It may be helpful to recognize the fundamental differences in conservative and liberal views.

We seem to be repeatedly revisiting some of the same basic concepts and spending enormous efforts trying to convince the other side why our view makes more sense.

One of them I have noticed is the treatment of the poor.

Conservatives seem to feel that the poor are poor simply because they are lazy. That if they just got determined enough and worked hard enough in the right way that they could climb out of the poverty cycle.

Liberals seem to hold that they are poor because opportunities available to others are not available to them. And they blame the rich policy-makers for systematically doing things that limit these opportunities.

Do you concur?

If so, why do we need to re-argue what has already been covered? This forum is great for learning what makes the 'other side' tick; but would be better if we could move on from the same-old same-old and try to arrive at some solutions or equitable compromise suggestions to send off to our representatives.

What other subjects can you identify the views of both sides on?
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2014 10:51:46 AM

One explanation for the way liberals and conservatives can look at the same situation and come to completely different views is called 'solution aversion.'

If you don't like the obvious solution to a problem then you simply refuse to accept the problem exists.

Don't want to pay higher energy prices or stop earning profits from a very lucrative fossil fuel industry? Deny global warming even exists.

Don't want to pay more to a greedy healthcare insurance industry or stop earning profits from it? Deny that it is a problem to have so many uninsured / or not able to afford care. Also deny that other nations do a better job at this and have better outcomes.

Don't want to pay more taxes for better education? Deny that better paid teachers with a lighter work load are more effective.

And so on.

Solution aversion.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 3:32:26 PM

Troller_Diesel - "Or perhaps, wait, I know! You're a liberal, so logic isn't one of your strong points!"

You seem to be trying very hard to prove that you're the so-called "liberal".

And you, quite clearly, are a top contender for "silliest poster".

[Edited by: rjhenn at 11/21/2014 3:33:20 PM EST]
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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 10:12:55 AM

rjhenn: "Try reading your own posts."

Why would I do that? Since I wrote them? Perhaps you're trying to take away the title of that last post for silliest one I've ever read?

Or perhaps, wait, I know! You're a liberal, so logic isn't one of your strong points!

*ROTFL* <=== BTW, that isn't insulting, sgm4law said so. Or at least when ROTFLNorm uses it. Which might actually be the silliest thing I've ever read.
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 10:07:08 AM

"Maybe the ones that are, or were, conservatives just don't want to admit it. "

Maybe Conservatives just use government assistance for a short time till they get back on their own 2 feet.
( Like the system was meant to operate )
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 1:38:52 AM

jacka123 - "Well, I'm a conservative, and I don't believe that the poor are just lazy people. But, stange, that all the lazy, yet healthy people that don't work, that I know, all claim to be liberal (democrats). Can anyone tell me why that is?"

Maybe the ones that are, or were, conservatives just don't want to admit it.
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 12:33:03 AM

For some strange reason, a lot of people find jobs when their unemployment benefits run out. . .
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 10:06:39 PM

I wouldn't say the poor are necessarily lazy, though some surely are. But there are also folks who are simply unmotivated (but still hard workers - at drudge jobs), and some who are non-conformists, who cannot or will not get along with society. IN any case, many of those are not motivated to "get ahead", and never will be. You can't have the dream of "nobody being poor", if they're not dreaming it for themselves first.
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jacka123
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 9:50:58 PM

Well, I'm a conservative, and I don't believe that the poor are just lazy people. But, stange, that all the lazy, yet healthy people that don't work, that I know, all claim to be liberal (democrats). Can anyone tell me why that is?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 12:27:37 PM

Troller_Diesel - "That was the silliest thing I've ever read..."

Try reading your own posts.
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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 11:40:03 AM

That was the silliest thing I've ever read...
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 8:48:55 AM

I am always amazed people really think they can boil such a complex world down to something so simple as stereotyping.

My keen observations have led me to realize that there are not even TWO people alike, far less an entire group.

Just because some people mostly agree on one issue does NOT indicate they are going to agree on others! They may; and then again they may not.

Stereotyping is such shallow thinking that I have lost most respect for anyone who perpetrates it. I really see no point in even talking to those who cling so these sad depressing blurtings.

I've been around this place for enough years to hear all the stereotypes I care to. (as if they really change much) As soon as I identify a poster as clinging to such simplistic boring dull notions I just want to shake my head and walk away.

I would rather talk to more interesting people who entertain actual original thoughts.

I yearn for the voice of that unique songbird among the flocks of soundbyte-parrots.

There are so many interesting flavors to stimulate the pallet. Why settle for baloney and spam all the time?

I would urge all to think about what you get out of your precious time spent here. Consider if it is really worth your time to encourage drivel. If enough people just ignore it then it will be marginalized.

They say you get back out of life what you put into it. This is absolutely true. And it is equally true of this forum.

What would you like this forum to be?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 12:50:18 AM

gas_too_high - "So, he's claiming to be you? :P"

No, he's claiming characteristics for liberals that seem to fit him more than they do many liberals.

As for me, that's just your usual "if he doesn't agree with me completely, he must be a liberal" fantasy.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2014 3:44:56 PM

sgm - all well and good. And what you're saying still isn't incompatible with what I'm saying. We can come to an agreement here..
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 3:12:22 PM

Well that's the thing about being in a political party.

You do have the power of numbers with you (yaay), but you kind of have to accept a platform of views, whether you hold them all or not (ouchie).

Kinda like if you buy shares of a mutual fund you buy a bit of every stock it holds whether or not you would really buy them all individually.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 3:01:19 PM

<<We all view the world through our individual "prisms of pain". And this is what shapes our individual worldviews. But I also agree that there are people who will conform to avoid looking like non-conformists - those that don't want to stand out for any reason at any cost.>>

Actually, I was thinking of it from the viewpoint that people tend to have stronger preferences on some issues than others. They may be willing to go along with a party's viewpoints even if they disagree with them on the things that matter less to them, if that party upholds the viewpoints on issues that they weigh more heavily.

I was not concerned about whether they worry whether they look conformist or nonconformist--and thus being shallow, but actually deciding on the issues themselves.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 2:48:24 PM

rjhenn: "Troller_Diesel - Once again, you seem to be claiming to be a liberal."

So, he's claiming to be you? :P

GTH
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 2:01:30 PM

Troller_Diesel - Once again, you seem to be claiming to be a liberal.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 11/17/2014 2:01:54 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 10:42:46 AM

sgm said: "Politics just results from the aggregation of individual viewpoints on various issues. Some people find it easier to go along with the majority of their group in deciding what they believe on discrete issues."

--And I agree. We all view the world through our individual "prisms of pain". And this is what shapes our individual worldviews. But I also agree that there are people who will conform to avoid looking like non-conformists - those that don't want to stand out for any reason at any cost. As you might guess, that wouldn't be me, nor you, I suspect.

Here's another quote from Ayn Rand that I think you might also find enlightening:

"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist."
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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 10:30:47 AM

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child — miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats." = PJ O'Rourke
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 8:07:26 AM

Birds of a feather flock together.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2014 10:21:32 PM

"every issue is it's own dimension. An individual's position on multiple issues may cluster together, but they are not necessarily tied to one another."

This sounds overly complex as opposed to the simplistic view some complain of. In fact, issues cluster together enough to make the liberal-conservative spectrum useful, as long as one remembers its limitations.

GTH
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2014 4:44:51 PM

"My personal view is that, in fact, every issue is it's own dimension. An individual's position on multiple issues may cluster together, but they are not necessarily tied to one another."

There's a whole area of study based on that fact. Here's just a snippet, one theory.

Politics just results from the aggregation of individual viewpoints on various issues. Some people find it easier to go along with the majority of their group in deciding what they believe on discrete issues.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2014 2:36:27 PM

What is really far too common are the ones who perpetuate these absurd stereotypes.

So if you express an opinion one time people try to classify you. And then they attach all the other views they associate with whatever class they have assigned you to. And THEN they act like you want/said/support/defend all that other stuff that THEY attached to you!

Mind boggling.

But sadly repeated.

And the really pitiful ones are the ones that you tell them "No. I don't feel that way, never did, etc." and a while later they do the same thing all over again.

At that point I see no reason to talk to that person ever again. I get the impression I have already heard the sum total of all their beliefs.

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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2014 9:46:08 AM

"every issue is it's own dimension. An individual's position on multiple issues may cluster together, but they are not necessarily tied to one another."

Very true for many people, but others are ideologues who will alway come down on the same side of every issue.
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2014 9:39:48 AM

"And then there are those that still believe what you hear on tv is the truth. "

WHAT????
They Lie?
But the Internet says they do not Lie????
How can that be?

Sorry....There should be a dedicated Sarcasm Font....Sorry
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Nov 10, 2014 6:53:12 PM

mnrick041

We look at things based on our individual filters that we have developed in life.

We have not developed very far from the time when competition meant survival, yet at times in view of a great danger we will unify as a group to conquer it.

And then there are those that still believe what you hear on tv is the truth.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 10, 2014 6:18:57 PM

There are also multiple ways of looking at the whole political arena.

The most simplistic is the binary view: there is left and there is right, liberal and conservative, and that's all there is. For every issue, there are only two possible positions.

One step up from that is the three-point view: There are conservatives, moderates and liberals. This still puts everyone in a particular group that they're expected to agree with.

Then there's the one dimensional view: politics is a line, ranging from extreme left to extreme right. Any individual can be at any point on that line.

Going a bit further we find the two-dimensional view, as exemplified by the World's Smallest Political Quiz (look it up on Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_Smallest_Political_Quiz. GB won't post the link, perhaps because it includes an apostrophe).

My personal view is that, in fact, every issue is it's own dimension. An individual's position on multiple issues may cluster together, but they are not necessarily tied to one another.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 11/10/2014 6:23:40 PM EST]
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Nov 10, 2014 3:14:33 PM

Seems pretty simple, mnrick. People have individual values based on their life experiences which yield different priorities which guide their views.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 10, 2014 12:20:55 AM

mnrick041 - "I fail to understand how so many issues are seen one way by 'Liberals' and another way by 'Conservatives'".

There are theories that some of it, at least, is due to differences in brain structure, but I think a lot of it is simply "my team" vs "your team" dynamics.

But there are some of us that just aren't team players.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 11/10/2014 12:25:28 AM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 9, 2014 11:06:40 PM

If a man doesn't have a job, you can't squeeze blood from a turnip.
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mnrick041
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 9, 2014 7:24:23 PM

I fail to understand how so many issues are seen one way by "Liberals" and another way by "Conservatives"

Global Warming, Gun Control, Abortion, Ebola travel restrictions, the Michael Brown ordeal, just to name a few.

I understand that not all liberals are totally in line with other liberals and the same is true for conservatives. I, for example, support marriage equality and I am against the death penalty, but most of my other views are in line with most conservatives.

It is like we watch the news and come to two totally different conclusions on the same issue and we will rabidly defend them.

Can anyone explain that to me??
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Nov 9, 2014 3:51:43 PM


They started out as the

Democratic/Republican party, no difference.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2014 9:18:51 AM

Well, it seems the practice of suspending licenses of deadbeat dads is not so stupid after all, then.
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MarkJames
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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2014 7:42:05 AM

I have 5 workers that received no child support until the fathers of their kids received license suspension notices, or their licenses were suspended.

All were working multiple under-the table jobs to avoid paying support.

They needed their driver's licenses and vehicles to work these jobs, plus valued the convenience, freedom and mobility of driving, so they starting paying.
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MarkJames
Champion Author Albany

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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2014 7:35:59 AM

Is License Suspension an Effective Tool in Collecting Support for Children?

<<Yes. The data supplied by several Ohio Counties indicates that over ½ of all non-paying parents that receive a pre-suspension notice either make a payment or contact the CSEA and make arrangements for managing their case going forward and never have their license suspended.

For those who do not respond to the pre-suspension notice and have their licenses suspended, they make payments, report employment, or other important information and get their licenses reinstated.

Most of these families would receive NO payments without the availability of this tool.

County agencies do not abuse the use of this tool. In fact, data received from the Ohio Office of Child Support indicates that 63.5% of the parents whose driver’s licenses were suspended as of Dec 31, 2011 paid NOTHING during 2011. Of the remaining parents that did make at least one payment, nearly 2/3 paid less than 25% of what was owed for their children in 2011.>>
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2014 12:43:37 AM

PopcornPirate - "That doesn't work. Prisons are overflowing with repeat offenders of every type."

Of course, who wants to look into just why that is?

Conservatives just want to punish people, except for the ones who want to profit off of punishing people.

Liberals, well, it's often difficult to figure out what liberals want. I'd say they just want us to be nice to each other, but that's too simplistic.

Somewhere, there has to be a practical middle ground.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 11/7/2014 12:45:27 AM EST]
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Nov 6, 2014 8:59:33 AM

"It also serves as a deterrent for others to see what happens if one is not responsible."
That doesn't work. Prisons are overflowing with repeat offenders of every type.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2014 5:45:57 PM

"This is the most stupid of things the government does.
Suspending someones Licenses does nothing other than putting that guy behind already on his child support out of work & on unemployment or in jail & still not paying the back child support. "

In many cases that is exactly what happens, true. But not always. It also serves as a deterrent for others to see what happens if one is not responsible. For those who need to drive to get to work this is something they care about. In some cases this is enough to get them to pay the child support. The only way to know if this is effective is to study cases to see if it has an overall good effect or simply adds cost to government debt without getting justifiable results. We need to look at data instead of opinion.
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2014 8:52:48 AM

maybe chicken little has chickenpox?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2014 4:46:57 PM

flyboyUT - "As far as I'm concerned - a pox on both their houses"

Both sides lie. Half the time you can't even tell which side is actually putting up the offensive garbage.

And when you can, well, it just undermines any trust you've got in either side.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2014 12:59:28 PM

Is this wrong and offensive to some of us?
.
.
Then this must be also?

As far as I'm concerned - a pox on both their houses
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2014 9:57:21 AM

"Most have served time and/or had their driver's license suspended for failure to pay child support."

This is the most stupid of things the government does.
Suspending someones Licenses does nothing other than putting that guy behind already on his child support out of work & on unemployment or in jail & still not paying the back child support.
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MarkJames
Champion Author Albany

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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2014 9:28:08 AM

<<You still would have to know who to test. If the mother doesn't know, you can't exactly line up guys like its the Maury Povich show.>>

One of my cousins daughters was on the Maury show in one of those episodes where they tested several fathers and none of them were proven to be the father of 2 of her kids.

.

She had unprotected sex with many guys and didn't know their names, nor where they lived, so it would be hard to track down the fathers.

.

The fathers of her other kids are all unemployable deadbeats with criminal records, plus they've fathered numerous other kids with multiple females, so it's nearly impossible to get any money out of them.

Most have served time and/or had their driver's license suspended for failure to pay child support.



[Edited by: MarkJames at 11/3/2014 9:28:44 AM EST]
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2014 9:08:54 AM

"Assuming the father is even known. "
Then whos fault is that????
The girl that thinks spreading he legs for every Tom, Dick & Harry is a way of life?
If you cant count the # of people you have been in bed with. You had a severe ethics & parental problem growing up
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 2, 2014 2:38:12 AM

theTower - "The Moral Stereotypes of Liberals and Conservatives: Exaggeration of Differences across the Political Spectrum"

"Interesting study."

Yep. As I've said before, modern politics has more in common with sports fans than it does with reality.
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Nov 1, 2014 9:25:57 AM

it is but a simple difference that completes a circle.

The democrats print the enquirer and the conservatives read and believe it.

LMAO
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Nov 1, 2014 8:31:37 AM

"--With DNA testing, there are no secrets anymore. That shouldn't be too hard to figure out"

You still would have to know who to test. If the mother doesn't know, you can't exactly line up guys like its the Maury Povich show.
You would also have to know where the father is. Sometimes that's not as easy as it would seem.
I agree though, it needs to be done. There are far too many irresponsible fathers out there.
Another issue is the marriage penalty. You get far more financial aid being not married and having kids than you do if your married. People know how to game the system. They aren't as stupid as people think they are.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 1, 2014 8:14:45 AM

Tower said: "Assuming the father is even known."

--With DNA testing, there are no secrets anymore. That shouldn't be too hard to figure out.
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Nov 1, 2014 8:07:57 AM

Functional differences

A study by scientists at New York University and the University of California, Los Angeles, found differences in how self-described liberal and conservative research participants responded to changes in patterns.[12]
Participants were asked to tap a keyboard when the letter "M" appeared on a computer monitor and to refrain from tapping when they saw a "W." The letter "M" appeared four times more frequently than "W," conditioning participants to press the keyboard on almost every trial. Liberal participants made fewer mistakes than conservatives when they saw the rare "W," indicating to the researchers that these participants were better able to accept changes or conflicts in established patterns.

The participants were also wired to an electroencephalograph that recorded activity in their anterior cingulate cortex, the part of the brain that detects conflicts between a habitual tendency and a more appropriate response.

Liberals were significantly more likely than conservatives to show activity in the brain circuits that deal with conflicts during the experiment, and this correlated with their greater accuracy in the test.

The lead author of the study, David Amodio, warned against concluding that a particular political orientation is superior.

"The tendency of conservatives to block distracting information could be a good thing depending on the situation," he said.[13][14]

In an fMRI study published in Social Neuroscience, three different patterns of brain activation were found to correlate with individualism, conservatism, and radicalism.[15] In general, fMRI responses in several portions of the brain have been linked to viewing of the faces of well-known politicians.


[Edited by: streetrider at 11/1/2014 8:11:17 AM EST]
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Nov 1, 2014 7:43:53 AM

The Moral Stereotypes of Liberals and Conservatives: Exaggeration of Differences across the Political Spectrum

Abstract
"We investigated the moral stereotypes political liberals and conservatives have of themselves and each other. In reality, liberals endorse the individual-focused moral concerns of compassion and fairness more than conservatives do, and conservatives endorse the group-focused moral concerns of ingroup loyalty, respect for authorities and traditions, and physical/spiritual purity more than liberals do. 2,212 U.S. participants filled out the Moral Foundations Questionnaire with their own answers, or as a typical liberal or conservative would answer. Across the political spectrum, moral stereotypes about “typical” liberals and conservatives correctly reflected the direction of actual differences in foundation endorsement but exaggerated the magnitude of these differences. Contrary to common theories of stereotyping, the moral stereotypes were not simple underestimations of the political outgroup's morality. Both liberals and conservatives exaggerated the ideological extremity of moral concerns for the ingroup as well as the outgroup. Liberals were least accurate about both groups."

Interesting study.
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