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Author Topic: Fundamental Differences In Conservative And Liberal Views Back to Topics
SemiSteve

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Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2013 12:24:31 PM

It may be helpful to recognize the fundamental differences in conservative and liberal views.

We seem to be repeatedly revisiting some of the same basic concepts and spending enormous efforts trying to convince the other side why our view makes more sense.

One of them I have noticed is the treatment of the poor.

Conservatives seem to feel that the poor are poor simply because they are lazy. That if they just got determined enough and worked hard enough in the right way that they could climb out of the poverty cycle.

Liberals seem to hold that they are poor because opportunities available to others are not available to them. And they blame the rich policy-makers for systematically doing things that limit these opportunities.

Do you concur?

If so, why do we need to re-argue what has already been covered? This forum is great for learning what makes the 'other side' tick; but would be better if we could move on from the same-old same-old and try to arrive at some solutions or equitable compromise suggestions to send off to our representatives.

What other subjects can you identify the views of both sides on?
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2014 3:21:06 PM

"You think the old system where people use to have $100 or $200 deductibles & reasonable rates was a bad idea & replaced it with a new system of $2000 or $3000 deductibles & exorbitant rate ?????"

What has that to do with my observation that you exaggerated 51% to be "well over 50%"?

I think the old system where folks were denied health insurance because of pre-existing conditions sucked. Those people were forced to live with 100% deductibles. The current system is an improvement over the former system, I would rather have seen Medicare extended to cover all Americans.





[Edited by: MiddletownMarty at 9/18/2014 3:22:02 PM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2014 2:54:36 PM

PopcornPirate - "You think the old system where people use to have $100 or $200 deductibles & reasonable rates was a bad idea"

Actually, haven't personally seen any policies like that in a decade or more. Both deductibles and rates have been climbing faster than wages for quite some time.

"& replaced it with a new system of $2000 or $3000 deductibles & exorbitant rate ?????"

I'll agree that ObamaCare does more for the insurance companies than anyone else, and is a bureaucratic mess. It would have been much better to go to a system somewhat like Canada's, but with copays.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2014 9:41:34 AM

Popcorn, if I only cared about myself I would be concerned about it.
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2014 9:28:36 AM

So Steve...Marty
You think the old system where people use to have $100 or $200 deductibles & reasonable rates was a bad idea & replaced it with a new system of $2000 or $3000 deductibles & exorbitant rate ?????
REALLY???
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 3:23:16 PM

AC-302 - "I'm sure the 47% of folks who pay no tax will probably be all over ObamaCare."

That's "47% of folks who pay no FEDERAL INCOME tax". And about 2/3 of those work and pay payroll taxes. They just aren't paid enough to owe federal income tax. Most of the rest are either retired (meaning they probably paid plenty of federal income tax while they were working) or students, who will pay federal income tax, if there are decent-paying jobs for them after college.

"I don't see a way to start this form of socialism without taking control and rights away from Americans. And, unfortunately, we are seeing exactly that - rights being taken away. Why should I be forced to buy a product that I may not necessarily want as a condition of citizenship in our great nation?"

IOW, you don't mind being a burden on society, as long as you don't have to pay for it.

Why should you have to buy car insurance in order to drive?
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 3:16:32 PM

Of those who object to ObamaCare are many who feel it did not go far enough. They would prefer to see SinglePayer.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 3:13:53 PM

Troller_Diesel - "Could you please rephrase your comment in the form of a sentence?"

Seems like a pretty good couple of sentences to me. Or aren't you familiar with the use of "like" as an adjective instead of a verb?

Could maybe have used an extra comma.

"Well, that's more clear. Clearly a straw man fallacy."

Nothing like a strawman. I would have said it was stereotyping, but he qualified it to a specific subset of conservatives.

"Just another Liberal Myth?"

Hardly. You can find sources all over, though the range of estimates is wide, depending on what they consider a cost. Here's a good starting point.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 3:03:00 PM

PopcornPirate - "Its well over 50% now that oppose it."

"Oppose it" is somewhat stronger than the actual numbers support.

Somewhere around 60% want Congress to fix it, not repeal it.

And quite a few of those opposed to it don't seem to know much about it.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 12:27:40 PM

I'm sure the 47% of folks who pay no tax will probably be all over ObamaCare. But the other 53% of Americans who are working and do pay taxes are not going to like it.

I don't see a way to start this form of socialism without taking control and rights away from Americans. And, unfortunately, we are seeing exactly that - rights being taken away. Why should I be forced to buy a product that I may not necessarily want as a condition of citizenship in our great nation?
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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 11:17:01 AM

SocialistSteve: "But if some conservatives discount the views of liberals they then feel that only like views to theirs should count. Hence they feel it is acceptable to call theirs the views of everyone.

Could you please rephrase your comment in the form of a sentence?

SocialistSteve: "Because these conservatives (as if wearing blinders) really do think they are the whole world."

Well, that's more clear. Clearly a straw man fallacy.

rjhenn: "...it appears to go over $3 trillion."

You're right, I did say million instead of trillion. Mea cupla. I could debunk this, but I won't since you haven't provided any proof for this yet.

Just another Liberal Myth?
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 10:08:56 AM

Last time we checked calling 51% 'well over 50%' is an exaggeration as well.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 9:48:09 AM

Last time we checked calling a number near 50% 'everyone' is an exaggeration.

But if some conservatives discount the views of liberals they then feel that only like views to theirs should count. Hence they feel it is acceptable to call theirs the views of everyone.

Because these conservatives (as if wearing blinders) really do think they are the whole world.
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 9:39:55 AM

"Sticker shock"

Failure to read fine print.
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 9:22:49 AM

""Last time we checked, the PPACA was not opposed by 'everyone.' ""
Its well over 50% now that oppose it.
Sticker shock
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 12:42:18 AM

Troller_Diesel - "And, AC-302, we spent no where near $3.2 million on the war in Iraq."

He said trillion, not million. And direct costs, including the interest on the increase in the debt, is estimated at $1.1 trillion. When you add in incidental costs, such as medical and disability claims for veterans and repairing battle-damaged equipment, it appears to go over $3 trillion.

"Have you notice, lately, now that more people are challenging SocialistSteve's self-vaunted "logic" that his posts have devolved into mere left-wing rants?."

Not really. Certainly not as much as your posts have always been little more than mere right-wing rants.

"As have most of the other libs on the forum. It appears more obvious, on a daily basis, that liberalism is a mental disorder..."

No, as you demonstrate, it's partisan extremism that's the mental disorder.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 12:30:41 AM

sgm4law - "Nutella"

Too much sugar.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 9:33:16 PM

SGM: "It's interesting that the conservatives and liberals I know personally don't fall into such divisions, but it seems on GBs that the majority of cons (which you don't fall into, btw) react to any statement of bias that the bias is in the beholder. I think it's weird."

That is so: "I'm rubber and you're glue..."

But I don't think its a majority. Close enough though.
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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 7:13:27 PM

And, AC-302, we spent no where near $3.2 million on the war in Iraq.

Have you notice, lately, now that more people are challenging SocialistSteve's self-vaunted "logic" that his posts have devolved into mere left-wing rants?.

As have most of the other libs on the forum. It appears more obvious, on a daily basis, that liberalism is a mental disorder...

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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 7:09:44 PM

SemiSteve told half of the truth, saying: "Conservatives spent $3.2 TRILLION dollars that we didn't have chasing nonexistent WMDs."

--The other half of the statement should read something like: "....that the rest of the world also thought existed, and that Saddam actually bragged about on numerous occasions."

And again, it wasn't and isn't implausible. Do you agree or disagree that Saddam used chem and bio weapons on the Kurds, on Iran and on other populations within his country? The fact that Iraq at one time had and used chem weapons is not in dispute among anyone that I've ever heard of. That's a cold, hard fact.
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MahopacJack
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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 5:12:19 PM

SemiSteve, >>"Like Obamacare that was rammed down everyone's throats."

Last time we checked, the PPACA was not opposed by 'everyone.'<<

~

The Democrats made fools out of the electorate with passage of a bill that would serve to socialize medicine. Even they didn't read it, much less understand it. The bills passage wasn't for the good of the people nor to reduce medical costs. It was simply to gain acccess to the Democrat Party's cash horde.

~
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 4:03:09 PM

"Notable how, to some conservatives, they are the whole world"

And liberals aren't?
See AGW.
Is there one of you that doesn't believe?

[Edited by: theTower at 9/16/2014 4:05:07 PM EST]
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 3:08:23 PM

"Nutella or lemon curd; no jam or jelly here..."

Neither lib or con--just weird. <<rimshot>>
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 3:07:08 PM

Notable how, to some conservatives, they are the whole world.

"Like Obamacare that was rammed down everyone's throats."

Last time we checked, the PPACA was not opposed by 'everyone.'
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IammeCA
Veteran Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 2:28:36 PM

"Nutella or lemon curd..."

Über liberal without a doubt, next you'll be saying you like granola. ;)
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:54:44 PM

Nutella or lemon curd; no jam or jelly here...
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:44:32 PM

"It's interesting that the conservatives and liberals I know personally don't fall into such divisions, but it seems on GBs that the majority of cons (which you don't fall into, btw) react to any statement of bias that the bias is in the beholder. I think it's weird."

I don't know that it's the majority; it seems to be only a few who childishly interject that way, mostly to feel like a participant without actually participating in the conversation. It's just a variant of the Peewee Hermanesque "I know you are but what am I" retort.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:39:36 PM

theTower - "Liberals and Conservatives smell different."

From the link: "(the left likes strawberry jelly, while the right favors grape)"

I like both. Though I usually prefer jam over jelly.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:36:47 PM

PopcornPirate - "Best weapons Money can buy... America has always spent on defence. We end up being the police force for the free world."

Ask our soldiers if those are the "Best weapons Money can buy". We pay dearly for them, while defense contractors profit handsomely and the soldiers in the field wonder where the money went.

"Both sides spend billions $ on elections..."

So there goes your claim that only liberals spend money on "frivolous things" and conservatives don't like to spend "other peoples money" on anything but national necessities.

Which is a good reason for some reasonable campaign finance reform. I favor something like only allowing people to contribute to candidates that they can vote for.

I'm also sick and tired of requests for political donations that are based entirely on partisanship and paranoia, instead of actual issues.

"Frivolous bills ???? Like Obamacare that was rammed down everyone's throats"

How about the over 50 bills the House has passed to repeal or cripple ObamaCare? A complete waste of time and money, nothing but politics.

The only thing frivolous about ObamaCare is that it's a half-measure, not an actual solution.
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:17:07 PM

Liberals and Conservatives smell different.

Might be helpful in a crisis.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 1:09:00 PM

"Conservatives believe that anyone mentioning any of those things is the bigot. That's right. If you mention that someone treated someone else badly because of a difference, YOU are the racist/sexist bigot."

I think you in error in many to most cases on this one SGM. Most people I know (people not politics) think that those who treat people badly should be told to stop doing that. However those who make up stories about it and who falsely blame others for it should also stop it.

For example throwing out the 'race card' when race isnt involved is wrong. Saying the action taken was sexist when it was soley based on quality or quantity of work is wrong. Saying that the standards for admission to a school or job should be different based on the degree of tan or the gender one is should never be allowed. Saying or doing things that are discriminatory should not be said or done is not wrong or political.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:46:25 PM

"Your views of conservatives and liberals are normally less biased and rigid."

It's interesting that the conservatives and liberals I know personally don't fall into such divisions, but it seems on GBs that the majority of cons (which you don't fall into, btw) react to any statement of bias that the bias is in the beholder. I think it's weird.
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 11:59:09 AM

"Very weird alternate universe"

Yes it is. Your views of conservatives and liberals are normally less biased and rigid.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 11:10:52 AM

Liberals believe treating people badly because of their race, creed, color, national origin, gender, sexuality, or religion is bad. If it's on the basis of race it's racism. If it's on the basis of sex, it's sexism.

Conservatives believe that anyone mentioning any of those things is the bigot. That's right. If you mention that someone treated someone else badly because of a difference, YOU are the racist/sexist bigot.

Very weird alternate universe they have going.
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 9:23:50 AM

""substandard or overpriced weapons, buying elections, pushing frivolous bills through Congress.... ""

Best weapons Money can buy... America has always spent on defence. We end up being the police force for the free world.

Both sides spend billions $ on elections...

Frivolous bills ???? Like Obamacare that was rammed down everyone's throats
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 7:49:59 PM

"Conservatives spent $3.2 TRILLION dollars that we didn't have chasing nonexistent WMDs. Never did find them. They started unnecessary wars with no way to pay for them besides tacking the cost right on to the debt."

Talk about spending other peoples' money.

Conservatives spend money on infrastructure? In what fantasy world?
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 7:40:39 PM

Conservatives spent $3.2 TRILLION dollars that we didn't have chasing nonexistent WMDs. Never did find them. They started unnecessary wars with no way to pay for them besides tacking the cost right on to the debt.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 3:08:29 PM

PopcornPirate - "Conservatives like to spend money on national things...infrastructure, defense, borders, intelligence ..."

substandard or overpriced weapons, buying elections, pushing frivolous bills through Congress....
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 10:37:14 AM

Liberals see no wrong with spending other peoples money on anything...even frivolous things.
Conservatives like to spend money on national things...infrastructure, defense, borders, intelligence ...
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 12:40:55 AM

Troller_Diesel - "So, what you're saying AC-302, is that conservatives base their opinions on facts, logic, and analysis, liberals emote.

That's about right."

Not hardly. I see just about as much emoting from the conservatives around here, often in the form of self-congratulatory stereotyping of everyone else, as I do from the liberals. If you go to a conservative website, about all you see is emotional BS, much the same as you see on liberal websites.

And both extremes are prone to base their logic and analysis on dogma and lies, instead of facts.
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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Sep 14, 2014 1:14:50 PM

So, what you're saying AC-302, is that conservatives base their opinions on facts, logic, and analysis, liberals emote.

That's about right.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Sep 14, 2014 1:00:32 PM

SemiSteve smugly quipped: "Oh my. You shut him down with that one, BT."

--'Oh, oh,.. I'm so emotionally wounded.. I can never post here again because of the shame.. ..and then Steve woke up from his dream.

But my example that came right off the top of my head is absolutely telling. I don't see ANYONE here on the left saying: "Yeah, Al ought not to have done that." or even "That did look pretty bad, particularly coming from the left." Instead, Babe, SemiSteve and RJ joined in the attack.

The hypocrisy here is that he said one thing publicly, and then did another. Buffett is another one who does this very same thing. He believes the middle class ought to be paying more in taxes. He's also on record against keeping the prop 13 here in CA. Without prop 13, most folks, myself included, couldn't afford to keep their homes. Anyway, truth be told, I have no problem with billionaires using the tax laws to their advantage, as long as it is within the confines of the law. No problem. But you can't go around screaming "Greed! Greed!", when those folks that you LIKE are doing the same thing as those you want to castigate. You need to hammer on the ones you like, too, and that is my point. I've noticed that this is one of the fundamental differences between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives will make a conscious effort to distance themselves from others in their ranks who do wrong - Duke Cunningham, for prime example. Liberals, especially their low level supporters, cling to their lefty wrongdoers, even past the bitter end, and even excuse their behavior because they "like" them. Both Clintons are prime examples of that. Obama and Holder are two more obvious and more recent examples.
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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Sep 14, 2014 12:40:01 PM

rjhenn: "So isn't your complaining about a "liberal" doing just what you want him to do somewhat hypocritical?"

Let me explain it in small words and short sentences for you:

Liberal want more taxes.

Liberal have to pay more taxes.

Liberal do something to pay less taxes.

Truth is liberal want taxes for other people not him.

Conservative point out liberal say one thing, do another.

Conservative point out liberal is hypocrite.

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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Sep 14, 2014 11:45:45 AM

I haven't seen any hypocritical conservatives admitting it either Cirdan.

But I do see conservatives pretending that there aren't any.
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Sep 14, 2014 11:05:08 AM

Hypocrisy is saying one thing in public, then doing something completely different in private. Both are looking out for themselves, but the hypocritical liberal is pretending they're something else.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:28:19 PM

AC-302 - "--And just look at that feces-for-brains Al Gore, for example. He went around claiming that rich folks needed to pay their fair share, and then hurried up his deal to sell his network to Al-Jazera before the new year to avoid paying a higher tax rate on the capital gain.

Rich Liberals = 'hypocrites'"

Funny, isn't it conservatives who are always complaining about taxes and promoting ways to avoid paying them?

So isn't your complaining about a "liberal" doing just what you want him to do somewhat hypocritical?
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:07:49 PM

Oh my. You shut him down with that one, BT.

Way to dispel the stereotypes.

You Conservative Myth Buster, you!

This Myth being that rich liberals who protect their money as they publicly claim the system is rigged (because they are in a position to take advantage of it) are hypocrites because they speak out that it should not be this way; and rich conservatives who do the same thing but remain quiet are somehow better because they shut up and take the money.
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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 12:38:24 PM

AC-302 "...Al Gore, for example..." and therefore "Rich Liberals = "hypocrites""

AC-302, you're falling into the very common conservative habit of taking one example of one liberal and then generalizing and stereotyping all other individuals of that group as being the same.

I'd really thought you were better than that.

If Al Gore represents all liberals, then how to explain Warren Buffet, another of the richest people in the world, and a liberal, who has pledged to give away 99% of his fortune?

I guess that doesn't count because he doesn't fit the stereotype?
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 10:47:33 AM

cirdan said: "Ever notice how those rich limousine liberals never seem to pony up their wealth to help people out?"

--And just look at that feces-for-brains Al Gore, for example. He went around claiming that rich folks needed to pay their fair share, and then hurried up his deal to sell his network to Al-Jazera before the new year to avoid paying a higher tax rate on the capital gain.

Rich Liberals = "hypocrites"
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:51:19 AM

Cirdan - "Ever notice how those rich limousine liberals never seem to pony up their wealth to help people out?"

Of course, you're including the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which is donating $50 million to help fight the Ebola outbreak in West Africa.
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 12:05:10 AM

Liberals = "We're all in this together!"

Ever notice how those rich limousine liberals never seem to pony up their wealth to help people out?
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