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Author Topic: Fundamental Differences In Conservative And Liberal Views Back to Topics
SemiSteve

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Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2013 12:24:31 PM

It may be helpful to recognize the fundamental differences in conservative and liberal views.

We seem to be repeatedly revisiting some of the same basic concepts and spending enormous efforts trying to convince the other side why our view makes more sense.

One of them I have noticed is the treatment of the poor.

Conservatives seem to feel that the poor are poor simply because they are lazy. That if they just got determined enough and worked hard enough in the right way that they could climb out of the poverty cycle.

Liberals seem to hold that they are poor because opportunities available to others are not available to them. And they blame the rich policy-makers for systematically doing things that limit these opportunities.

Do you concur?

If so, why do we need to re-argue what has already been covered? This forum is great for learning what makes the 'other side' tick; but would be better if we could move on from the same-old same-old and try to arrive at some solutions or equitable compromise suggestions to send off to our representatives.

What other subjects can you identify the views of both sides on?
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 11:38:43 PM

ministorage - "That's a stereotype. And an ad hominem."

How? Note I didn't say "conservatives", I said "most conservatives", as in "most of those who self-identify as conservatives here on GB".

"The time you spend on GB fighting others, while unemployed and collecting unemployment, is not teaching yourself to fish. Nor is it starvation."

Now that appears to be an actual ad hominem. And a stereotype.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 10:47:58 PM

rjhenn: "My positions are rational ones, not liberal or conservative."

GTH: "They are also shallow, based it seems on what you consider "what works" for a given situation, without considering whether "what works" is proper for government to do, or other moral considerations."

rjhenn: '"Proper" and "moral" is according to your dogma, or according to the Constitution and reason?'

GTH: 'According to the Constitution and reason, and opposed to the dogma that you miscall 'what works".'

rjhenn: "IOW, opposed to reason, which is defined by "what works", and only according to your restrictive 17th century interpretation of the Constitution."

18th century actually for the original Constitution, since it was written then.

Your "what works" position is shallow because you are considering only means, not ends. That's where morality comes in, to properly choose the ends. (BTW, morality was considered by ancient Greek philosophers like Aristotle and is not dependent on religion. The Founders were well acquainted with Aristotle and Greek classical thought).

GTH: "The liberal view disdains both these positions in favor of the extra-Constitutional "right to sexual pleasure," anytime, anywhere, without consequences."

sgm4law: "While there may be liberals and libertarians who feel that way, many liberals feel that families of all sorts are deserving of equal treatment by the government."

Abortion rights has nothing to do with families. And same-sex couples are about the participants, with any children (always brought in with outside help) optional adornment.

rjhenn: "But what I hear most conservatives supporting..."

Still complaining about conservatives, I see -- but not about liberals. Not surprising, since you are primarily liberal.

GTH
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ministorage
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 7:19:04 PM

"But what I hear most conservatives supporting is more along the lines of "let a man starve while he's trying to teach himself to fish.""

That's a stereotype. And an ad hominem.

Personal responsibility dictates what we do with our time. The time you spend on GB fighting others, while unemployed and collecting unemployment, is not teaching yourself to fish. Nor is it starvation.

Not everyone has the same sense of responsibility that Popcorn has. Not everyone expects a collective to carry them whilst they fritter away their time.
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IammeCA
Veteran Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 6:04:25 PM

<<But what I hear most conservatives supporting is more along the lines of "let a man starve while he's trying to teach himself to fish.">>

or

If the man had made the right choices in his youth he would already know how to fish.
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 3:52:04 PM

This conservative fights their own GB battles.
Certain liberals will run home and cry to moddy

[Edited by: theTower at 10/20/2014 3:54:04 PM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 1:58:39 PM

PopcornPirate - "Conservatives oppose programs that throw money at a problem because Liberals think that money is the answer to all problems."

Yet another stereotype.

"Give a man a fish & you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish & you feed him for life."

But what I hear most conservatives supporting is more along the lines of "let a man starve while he's trying to teach himself to fish."
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 10:31:23 AM

"Which is why they oppose programs to help people better themselves. "
Conservatives oppose programs that throw money at a problem because Liberals think that money is the answer to all problems.
Give a man a fish & you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish & you feed him for life.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 8:41:53 AM

<<The liberal view disdains both these positions in favor of the extra-Constitutional "right to sexual pleasure," anytime, anywhere, without consequences.>>

While there may be liberals and libertarians who feel that way, many liberals feel that families of all sorts are deserving of equal treatment by the government.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 20, 2014 8:20:42 AM

High: "Actually, I hold my positions not based on religion, but based on reason, which happen to be endorsed by many religious groups. And many consider your opposite positions on those issues immoral and unconstitutional."

Many, but not all. If the many get their way, it is being forced upon the rest. If gay marriage is a crime then who is the victim?

"The conservative position upholds the right to life and the right of children to be raised by a mother and a father. The liberal view disdains both these positions in favor of the extra-Constitutional "right to sexual pleasure," anytime, anywhere, without consequences."

If pleasure is a crime then who is the victim?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 19, 2014 10:46:50 PM

gas_too_high - "According to the Constitution and reason, and opposed to the dogma that you miscall 'what works"."

IOW, opposed to reason, which is defined by "what works", and only according to your restrictive 17th century interpretation of the Constitution.

"Actually, I hold my positions not based on religion, but based on reason, which happen to be endorsed by many religious groups."

So, not reason, but reasons based on your religion.

"The conservative position upholds the right to life and the right of children to be raised by a mother and a father."

The conservative position also denies a right to social support for those children after being born. And ignores the fact that there's no evidence, just dogma, to support the idea that "a mother and a father" are a requirement for a child to grow up healthy.

"The liberal view disdains both these positions in favor of the extra-Constitutional "right to sexual pleasure," anytime, anywhere, without consequences. Those issues are merely part of the divide between conservatives and liberals in this country."

That "divide" is based largely on lies about each other, such as the one in the paragraph above.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Oct 19, 2014 10:35:13 PM

rjhenn: "My positions are rational ones, not liberal or conservative."

GTH: "They are also shallow, based it seems on what you consider "what works" for a given situation, without considering whether "what works" is proper for government to do, or other moral considerations."

rjhenn: '"Proper" and "moral" is according to your dogma, or according to the Constitution and reason?'

According to the Constitution and reason, and opposed to the dogma that you miscall 'what works".

"You think that banning abortion and restricting marriage to your religious definition are both "proper for government to do", while many consider both positions immoral and unconstitutional."

Actually, I hold my positions not based on religion, but based on reason, which happen to be endorsed by many religious groups. And many consider your opposite positions on those issues immoral and unconstitutional.

The conservative position upholds the right to life and the right of children to be raised by a mother and a father. The liberal view disdains both these positions in favor of the extra-Constitutional "right to sexual pleasure," anytime, anywhere, without consequences. Those issues are merely part of the divide between conservatives and liberals in this country.

GTH
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 18, 2014 7:08:16 PM

gas_too_high - "They are also shallow, based it seems on what you consider "what works" for a given situation, without considering whether "what works" is proper for government to do, or other moral considerations."

"Proper" and "moral" is according to your dogma, or according to the Constitution and reason?

You think that banning abortion and restricting marriage to your religious definition are both "proper for government to do", while many consider both positions immoral and unconstitutional.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Oct 18, 2014 6:23:51 PM

rjhenn: "My positions are rational ones, not liberal or conservative."

They are also shallow, based it seems on what you consider "what works" for a given situation, without considering whether "what works" is proper for government to do, or other moral considerations.

GTH
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 18, 2014 12:19:13 AM

gas_too_high - "rjhenn, I see you still complain about liberals and conservatives -- especially conservatives."

That's because most of the posters here are, or claim to be, conservatives.

"That's understandable, seeing that most of your positions are liberal ones. Despite the contradiction of your gun rights stance, you have a clear liberal mindset, no matter how much you want to deny it (which is not all that much, from what I've seen of your posts)."

My positions are rational ones, not liberal or conservative. Gun control is not rational, like many stances based on dogma, whether liberal dogma or conservative dogma. When I post on liberal sites, I generally get much the same attitude I get from you, but reversed, claiming I must be a conservative.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 4:01:07 PM

rjhenn, I see you still complain about liberals and conservatives -- especially conservatives.

That's understandable, seeing that most of your positions are liberal ones. Despite the contradiction of your gun rights stance, you have a clear liberal mindset, no matter how much you want to deny it (which is not all that much, from what I've seen of your posts).

GTH
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 2:54:10 PM

PopcornPirate - "Conservatives want to help people better themselves so they are NOT helpless & need government assistance ."

Which is why they oppose programs to help people better themselves.
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Service66
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 11:41:42 AM


Libs and Cons both have their set of "morals" that they will push on people whenever the chances occur. They both use the courts to effect such changes, instead of growing spines and arguing for legislature to do the same. They're both just preening schmoes.

>>A prime example was the Terry Schiavo case where Congress tried to move heaven and earth to change the outcome in a personal family matter. They lost all credibility with me about their talk about states' rights and individual rights with that.

Well, the establishment Repubs have no interest in state's rights or small fed gov't, so in that light their intrusiveness isn't really surprising.

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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 8:57:22 AM

"Conservatives want to 'protect' the helpless, while keeping them helpless and vulnerable."
Far from the truth..
Conservatives want to help people better themselves so they are NOT helpless & need government assistance .
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 11:38:14 PM

gas_too_high - "IOW, you are admitting my statement is correct."

In a very limited and self-serving way, yes. Conservatives want to 'protect' the helpless, while keeping them helpless and vulnerable. Much of the motivation for that 'protection', however, seems to be punishing others for their 'sin'.

"Liberals only believe in certain kinds of choice, such as the choice to get an abortion, while denying others, such as school choice, or the choice not to recognize a same-sex "marriage" or -- for you -- the choice to not enter a one-size-fits-all government-run single-payer healthcare system."

Except that, to some conservatives, "choice" simply means the freedom to impose their dogma and bigotry on others.

Or to make a profit off of the suffering of others.

"The GI Bill applies to those who chose to serve honorably in the armed forces, and is therefore an outgrowth of national defense. Those others are not part of the classic understanding of limited government."

Yet conservatives benefit from them, while claiming "I built that".

"Agreed. In my observation, most bigots these days are liberals, who attack conservatives based on outdated views and caricatures while holding "politically correct" bigoted positions."

No, there are plenty of bigots on both sides, who attack the other side based on stereotypes and caricatures, while holding dogmatic positions.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 12:31:08 PM

"Funny, if you look at what conservatives actually do, instead of what they say, that's an exact description of many conservatives."

A prime example was the Terry Schiavo case where Congress tried to move heaven and earth to change the outcome in a personal family matter. They lost all credibility with me about their talk about states' rights and individual rights with that.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 10:20:22 AM

Oh I see now.

Liberals believe in the rights of individuals to do things that affect themselves, such as abortion or gay marriage.

Conservatives believe into their own 'individual rights' to force their own morals upon others...

Got it.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 6:58:00 AM

gas_too_high - "Conservatives believe that the primary concern of limited government should be the protection of innocent life. That means national defense, enforcing the peace and local order -- and protecting the most vulnerable such as the unborn and the infirm."

rjhenn: "Except that those "most vulnerable" are pretty much on their own as far as actually surviving is concerned."

IOW, you are admitting my statement is correct.

"IOW, liberals believe in equal opportunity and individual choice, while conservatives believe in forcing others to do what they feel they should do, while limiting their ability to improve themselves."

Liberals only believe in certain kinds of choice, such as the choice to get an abortion, while denying others, such as school choice, or the choice not to recognize a same-sex "marriage" or -- for you -- the choice to not enter a one-size-fits-all government-run single-payer healthcare system.

"Of course that only applies to others, since many conservatives 'succeed' with government help, such as the GI Bill, small business loans and Social Security survivors benefits."

The GI Bill applies to those who chose to serve honorably in the armed forces, and is therefore an outgrowth of national defense. Those others are not part of the classic understanding of limited government.

"OTOH, I see many liberals who are just as judgmental and bigoted as they think conservatives are."

Agreed. In my observation, most bigots these days are liberals, who attack conservatives based on outdated views and caricatures while holding "politically correct" bigoted positions.

GTH
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 3:00:43 AM

gas_too_high - "Conservatives believe that the primary concern of limited government should be the protection of innocent life. That means national defense, enforcing the peace and local order -- and protecting the most vulnerable such as the unborn and the infirm."

Except that those "most vulnerable" are pretty much on their own as far as actually surviving is concerned.

"Liberals want to use government to guarantee quality of life through welfare and entitlement programs, artificially imposed "equality," etc -- but seem little concerned about protecting life, judging by how the advocate abortion on demand, and increasingly, assisted suicide."

IOW, liberals believe in equal opportunity and individual choice, while conservatives believe in forcing others to do what they feel they should do, while limiting their ability to improve themselves.

Of course that only applies to others, since many conservatives 'succeed' with government help, such as the GI Bill, small business loans and Social Security survivors benefits.

OTOH, I see many liberals who are just as judgmental and bigoted as they think conservatives are.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 2:52:39 AM

teacher_tim - "Liberals tend to see government's role as protecting their beliefs and use the government, when they are in power, to force others to behave as they [the liberals] believe they SHOULD act, regardless of how it infringes on their freedom, or the freedom of those the liberals wish to subjugate and force toward their beliefs."

Funny, if you look at what conservatives actually do, instead of what they say, that's an exact description of many conservatives.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 8:48:28 PM

Conservatives believe that the primary concern of limited government should be the protection of innocent life. That means national defense, enforcing the peace and local order -- and protecting the most vulnerable such as the unborn and the infirm.

Liberals want to use government to guarantee quality of life through welfare and entitlement programs, artificially imposed "equality," etc -- but seem little concerned about protecting life, judging by how the advocate abortion on demand, and increasingly, assisted suicide.

GTH

[Edited by: gas_too_high at 10/15/2014 8:48:52 PM EST]
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 8:01:16 PM

That theory falls apart when it comes to abortion.
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 10:03:06 AM

You are correct TT. Here is an example of what to expect when radical liberals take over a city.
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 9:45:20 AM

Liberals tend to see government's role as protecting their beliefs and use the government, when they are in power, to force others to behave as they [the liberals] believe they SHOULD act, regardless of how it infringes on their freedom, or the freedom of those the liberals wish to subjugate and force toward their beliefs.
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 9:38:53 AM

"Result:
Conservatives accurately understood what the Liberals positions were.
Liberals were unable to identify the Conservative's positions."

Conclusion:
Liberals are better able to lucidly articulate their positions.
Conservatives are easily confused.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 9:33:47 AM

Service, we both spoke in general. If you identify with my statement that's you bag.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 9:32:10 AM

Lemme guess. That 'someone' was conservative.
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 1:11:29 AM

Someone did a scientific study, asking liberals and conservatives the same questions, then asking them to recite the other group's positions on the same subject.

Result:
Conservatives accurately understood what the Liberals positions were.
Liberals were unable to identify the Conservative's positions.
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Service66
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 12:31:43 PM


I know it's a remnant from when I was a regular here, but I don't know why you insist on using the label 'conservative' when speaking to me. Also, I don't listen to talk radio.

Sorry to spoil your delusion.

Anyway, I'm not going to climb down the rabbit hole with you. I've made my point about gov't incompetence and your response was equally incompetent.

[Edited by: Service66 at 10/14/2014 12:35:27 PM EST]
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 12:24:27 PM

"Liberals have an unfounded faith in gov't. It's their religion."

And conservatives have a vast misunderstanding about liberals, (such as the above), which is fueled by for-profit controversy-peddlers on talk radio and elsewhere, causing them to 'rush' 'savagely' into the 'beck' and call of 'coulter' attitudes that divide our nation and prevent progress.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 12:17:54 PM

rjhenn: "IOW, you just threw away your criticism of my positions."

Not at all. The distinction between limited government, and big, paternalistic, all-powerful government remains.

And your positions on gun rights, on the one hand, and single-payer healthcare, on the other hand, remain contradictory. The first is a limited government position. The second is even more big-government than Obamacare.

GTH
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 11:32:05 AM

S66: "Liberals have an unfounded faith in gov't. It's their religion."


There's a lot of truth in that. If you think about it half or more of the population now couldn't stay afloat without freebies from government; so government has taken on the role of provider for them, just like a Deity.


mudtoe
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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 11:27:45 AM

Once again, SocialistSteve demonstrates his complete ignorance of facts or history:

The Political History of Cap and Trade

How an unlikely mix of environmentalists and free-market conservatives hammered out the strategy known as cap-and-trade

"People now call that system "cap-and-trade." But back then the term of art was "emissions trading," though some people called it "morally bankrupt" or even "a license to kill." For a strange alliance of free-market Republicans and renegade environmentalists, it represented a novel approach to cleaning up the world—by working with human nature instead of against it."

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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 11:25:17 AM

Conservatives have a better understanding that government has a mixture of success and failure. Liberals trend towards focusing on ignoring the failures, which prompts so many of them to actually believe government can't do anything wrong, or the favorite soundbyte 'government is the solution.'
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Service66
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 10:23:52 AM


And that's just 1 of your points, and it took about a minute to dissemble.

When your list of top things gov't does well includes weather service and record-keeping*, it ain't much of a list.

*A quick look at recent behavior from IRS and DOJ would shoot down any notion of competent record-keeping.

>>>Liberals have a better understanding that government has a mixture of success and failure.

Liberals have an unfounded faith in gov't. It's their religion.

ftfy

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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 10:07:59 AM

Liberals have a better understanding that government has a mixture of success and failure. Conservatives trend towards focusing on only the failures, which prompts so many of them to actually believe government can't do anything right, or the favorite soundbyte 'government is the problem.'
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Service66
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 10:07:51 AM


>>>Airline travel and other modes of travel are far safer for government controls.

A guy starts a basement fire and cripples air travel nationwide.

---

Dr. Aileen Marty, who recently returned home to Miami after spending 31 days in Nigeria...says she was surprised what happened when she arrived at Miami International Airport.

“I get to the kiosk…mark the fact that I’ve been in Nigeria and nobody cares, nobody stopped me,” Marty said.

“Not a single test?” Ramos asked her, surprised.

“Nothing,” Marty answered. link

---

“At least three eyewitnesses spotted al Qaeda hijackers casing the security checkpoints at Boston’s Logan Airport months before the 9/11 attacks. They saw something and said something — but were ignored, newly unveiled court papers reveal.”

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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 2:52:07 AM

Troller_Diesel - "In opposition to the Pergressive leftist extreme position of Government über alles!"

And you continue with your reliance on inaccurate stereotypes.

The rational position is that both the market and the government have flaws, but both can be used to minimize the flaws inherent in each.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 10/14/2014 2:54:44 AM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 2:51:06 AM

gas_too_high - "As a conservative, I tend to agree. While some conservatives (and a great many libertarians) hold that position, I do not. I hold the more mainstream conservative position that government should be limited to those things that only it can and should do, but be capable of doing those things (like national defense and keeping the peace at home)."

IOW, you just threw away your criticism of my positions.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2014 11:26:04 AM

What does government do well?

Airline travel and other modes of travel are far safer for government controls. Pollution hazards are minimized. Work places are safer. We run a great weather service. We keep records about our society so we can spot trends. Really, that's just examples of a list that goes on and on when you think about it.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2014 11:21:40 AM

Good point. Conservatives are all too likely to believe government can't do anything right. Despite all the great things government has accomplished and continues to do.

Does government make mistakes? Of course it does. Does it always? No.
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Service66
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2014 11:17:36 AM


>>>I suppose it only makes sense if one believes that government is always incapable of doing anything. Sad state of mind, but all too common.

All too common because because it happens all too often. Besides wage war, what does the fed gov't do well?

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Troller_Diesel
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Oct 12, 2014 8:59:04 PM

gas_too_high: "I hold the more mainstream conservative position that government should be limited to those things that only it can and should do, but be capable of doing those things (like national defense and keeping the peace at home)."

That is, indeed, the mainstream conservative position.

In opposition to the Pergressive leftist extreme position of Government über alles!

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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Oct 12, 2014 8:11:54 PM

sgm4law: 'I don't see any irony or inconsistency in supporting a government managed health care system and people retaining the right to self-defense (and sport) with guns....I suppose it only makes sense if one believes that government is always incapable of doing anything. Sad state of mind, but all too common."

As a conservative, I tend to agree. While some conservatives (and a great many libertarians) hold that position, I do not. I hold the more mainstream conservative position that government should be limited to those things that only it can and should do, but be capable of doing those things (like national defense and keeping the peace at home).

I also am aware that some believe that government is the solution for fixing anything that is deemed to be broken, without simply allowing or enabling the private sector to do so. This seems to be the all too typical liberal position, and is in full view with our current President's policies.

That viewpoint also generally distrusts guns in private hands, since armed citizens are likely to be more self-reliant and less likely to want to be dependent on (or be intimidated by) big government.

GTH
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Oct 12, 2014 6:06:00 PM

I don't see any irony or inconsistency in supporting a government managed health care system and people retaining the right to self-defense (and sport) with guns. There are different reasons why one of those approaches works better with government management (healthcare) and why self-defense with a gun supplements the government's admittedly imperfect ability to defend oneself immediately from crime.

I suppose it only makes sense if one believes that government is always incapable of doing anything. Sad state of mind, but all too common.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

Posts:15,122
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Message Posted: Oct 12, 2014 2:02:49 PM

gas_too_high - "From you, that's ironic, given that your support of gun rights undercuts your usual big government stance."

rjhenn: "Which is ironic, given that you want government-imposed morality and religion, rather than individual choice."

One of your typical non-answers. Just how do you reconcile your advocacy of gun rights, which (at least symbolically if not in fact) is a limit on government power, with your advocacy of single payer government run health insurance, which is a substantial concentration of power in the government?

GTH
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