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Author Topic: Fundamental Differences In Conservative And Liberal Views Back to Topics
SemiSteve

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Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2013 12:24:31 PM

It may be helpful to recognize the fundamental differences in conservative and liberal views.

We seem to be repeatedly revisiting some of the same basic concepts and spending enormous efforts trying to convince the other side why our view makes more sense.

One of them I have noticed is the treatment of the poor.

Conservatives seem to feel that the poor are poor simply because they are lazy. That if they just got determined enough and worked hard enough in the right way that they could climb out of the poverty cycle.

Liberals seem to hold that they are poor because opportunities available to others are not available to them. And they blame the rich policy-makers for systematically doing things that limit these opportunities.

Do you concur?

If so, why do we need to re-argue what has already been covered? This forum is great for learning what makes the 'other side' tick; but would be better if we could move on from the same-old same-old and try to arrive at some solutions or equitable compromise suggestions to send off to our representatives.

What other subjects can you identify the views of both sides on?
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 2:22:08 PM

"Or maybe it's your inability, or unwillingness, to read what I actually wrote."

No it isn't. I read just fine.
you seem to be using some mysterious standards as to what constitutes extremist in your opinion.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 1:28:29 PM

"How so? Do you only consider spending that you disagree with to be spending "other peoples' money"?"

Every dime congress and now the president spends is other peoples' money.

"Now that is pure ideology. What, BO (the most likely target of "until the past 6 years") makes and passes the budget now?"

He just spends without congressional approval.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 1:01:05 PM

SoylentGrain - "20% is consistent with the voting record in congress."

How so? Do you only consider spending that you disagree with to be spending "other peoples' money"?

"And until the past 6 years, congress controlled spending of OPM (other peoples' money)."

Now that is pure ideology. What, BO (the most likely target of "until the past 6 years") makes and passes the budget now?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 12:58:20 PM

theTower - "Must be your definition of what is extremist that is the problem then."

Or maybe it's your inability, or unwillingness, to read what I actually wrote.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 12:28:12 PM

"So following that bit of "logic", it would seem that Republican congressmen are twice as dishonest as the average Republican felon."

Good point. Probably so.

"But in truth, it's difficult to draw any conclusions at all from statistics that were apparently pulled out of thin air."

Either, more democratics than Republicans are in prison or not. Either, more Democratic congressmen are in prison than not.
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Davewalk
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 11:45:05 AM

SoylentGrain: <<80/20 is also the split between Democratic and Republican congressmen sent to federal prison over the past 50 years. That same mindset of using other peoples' money, apparently, has no boundaries. The general prison population is approximately 90% democratic affiliation, by the way. Its nice to know Democratic congressmen are slightly more honest than the average felon.>>

So following that bit of "logic", it would seem that Republican congressmen are twice as dishonest as the average Republican felon. But in truth, it's difficult to draw any conclusions at all from statistics that were apparently pulled out of thin air.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 8:45:52 AM

gas_too_high - "Except a liberal attacking a conservative woman."

Yeah, they really gave Sheehan a rough time.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 8:06:28 AM

"".....in an 80/20 proportion."

Opinion, not fact."

20% is consistent with the voting record in congress. There are crossover votes on both sides. But, the majority in congress vote along party lines. And until the past 6 years, congress controlled spending of OPM (other peoples' money).

80/20 is also the split between Democratic and Republican congressmen sent to federal prison over the past 50 years. That same mindset of using other peoples' money, apparently, has no boundaries. The general prison population is approximately 90% democratic affiliation, by the way. Its nice to know Democratic congressmen are slightly more honest than the average felon.
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 6:34:22 AM

"Like I said, there aren't very many extremist leftists on these forums, especially as compared to the numbers of extremist self-identified conservatives"

Must be your definition of what is extremist that is the problem then.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 1:58:53 AM

gas_too_high - "I can't speak to other sites, or what you post there (they may be put off by your idiosyncratic defense of gun rights). But when someone holds the position that Obamacare is lightly to the right" and openly supports single payer healthcare, that explains well why you call conservatives "extremists" and fail to see liberals as such. You are an extremist on the left."

And you contradict yourself again with your need to put everyone into neat little black and white categories. Didn't I say that I see plenty of liberal extremists on other sites? How is that "fail to see liberals as such"???

Both my position on gun control and my position on healthcare are based on reason and logic, not dogma from either side.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 1:53:37 AM

SoylentGrain - "Like the Affordable Care Act."

Since the original statement was: "Liberals believe they should use other people's money to force others to behave and think the way liberals want them to, because liberals know what is best for everyone", as if only liberals acted or believed that way, there's really no point to your post, is there.

".....in an 80/20 proportion."

Opinion, not fact.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 12/22/2014 1:54:13 AM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 22, 2014 1:51:23 AM

theTower - "Did you ever stop to think you only notice the conservatives because of your own extreme leftist views?
Many of us did."

If by "us", you mean extremist conservatives, that explains your perspective.

Like I said, there aren't very many extremist leftists on these forums, especially as compared to the numbers of extremist self-identified conservatives. OTOH, I've noticed lots of extremist leftists in other forums, so it can't be that I "only notice the conservatives".
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2014 10:13:21 PM

rjhenn: "No, like I said, here, in these forums, most of the extremists and dogmatists claim to be conservatives. I've seen only a few who claim to be liberals. Go to certain other sites and it's just the reverse."

I can't speak to other sites, or what you post there (they may be put off by your idiosyncratic defense of gun rights). But when someone holds the position that Obamacare is lightly to the right" and openly supports single payer healthcare, that explains well why you call conservatives "extremists" and fail to see liberals as such. You are an extremist on the left.

GTH
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2014 12:39:53 PM

"Obviously it is disingenuous to say that liberals use other peoples money to force their way upon others because BOTH liberals AND conservatives do that. "

.....in an 80/20 proportion.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2014 12:11:03 PM

Obviously it is disingenuous to say that liberals use other peoples money to force their way upon others because BOTH liberals AND conservatives do that.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2014 8:07:18 AM

"IOW, all 3 are examples where conservatives use the power of government ("other people's money") to force others to behave and think the way conservatives want them to, because conservatives insist that they know what is best for everyone. "

Like the Affordable Care Act.
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2014 5:57:30 AM

"No, like I said, here, in these forums, most of the extremists and dogmatists claim to be conservatives. I've seen only a few who claim to be liberals. Go to certain other sites and it's just the reverse"

Did you ever stop to think you only notice the conservatives because of your own extreme leftist views?
Many of us did.

[Edited by: theTower at 12/21/2014 6:01:14 AM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2014 3:45:59 AM

gas_too_high - "IOW, you detest conservatives, but fail to see liberals as 'extremists and dogmatists.'"

No, like I said, here, in these forums, most of the extremists and dogmatists claim to be conservatives. I've seen only a few who claim to be liberals. Go to certain other sites and it's just the reverse.

"Otherwise, the one in the White House would be a great big example of both."

Which is based on your own dogmatism and ODS, not reality.

"Thank you for once again proving my point that you are a liberal."

Thank you for once again demonstrating your penchant for black-and-white thinking.

"There are still liberals that uphold the drug laws (the abolition of which, is more a libertarian position that a liberal one)."

Funny, there are an increasing number of conservatives that see those drug laws as a violation of basic conservative principles, not to mention that they do a lot more harm than good.

"There is no law against "gay marriage" since a gay person can marry (the opposite gender of course) just like anyone else can. (You mean, of course, laws defining marriage as between a man and a woman)."

I mean, explicitly, "gay marriage", since, quite obviously, if a gay marries someone of the opposite sex, it's not a "gay marriage".

"And as Soylentgrain points out, abortion is a "right" guaranteed by SCOTUS, so no laws against it are currently in force (there are, of course, laws regulating it, which is a different matter)."

Of course, an increasing number of those laws are overt attempts to regulate it out of existence.

IOW, all 3 are examples where conservatives use the power of government ("other people's money") to force others to behave and think the way conservatives want them to, because conservatives insist that they know what is best for everyone.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2014 3:36:42 AM

SoylentGrain - "What laws against abortion are you referring to?"

The ones that conservatives keep passing. Or haven't you noticed?

"Abortion is a right guaranteed by the Supreme Court."

Which conservatives don't seem to believe in.

"There were several years of a Democratic supermajority, if this were an issue, Democratics should have seized the opportunity."

If it was an issue then, they possibly would have. But it's only become a real issue in the last several years.

"As far as gay marriage, I know of no one who wants to prevent anyone from interfering with love. The issue for many is the redefinition of marriage. There's no reason individual laws can not be changed to incorporated gay couples. But, when gay marriage has to be accepted by religious institutions, that creates some justifiable concern."

Except that no one, except a few extremists, is seriously advocating requiring religious institutions to accept gay marriage. What they are advocating is changing the law so that all laws on marriage apply equally to gay couples. The easiest way to do that is to extend the legal definition of marriage to include those gay couples. Changing every individual law that would be involved would be a major undertaking.

"Marriage" has both a religious meaning and a legal meaning. You don't have to have a religious ceremony to get married.
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gas_too_high
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Message Posted: Dec 20, 2014 9:47:51 PM

teacher_tim - "Liberals believe they should use other people's money to force others to behave and think the way liberals want them to, because liberals know what is best for everyone."

rjhenn: "Wow, so that explains laws against abortion, drugs and gay marriage."

There are still liberals that uphold the drug laws (the abolition of which, is more a libertarian position that a liberal one). There is no law against "gay marriage" since a gay person can marry (the opposite gender of course) just like anyone else can. (You mean, of course, laws defining marriage as between a man and a woman).

And as Soylentgrain points out, abortion is a "right" guaranteed by SCOTUS, so no laws against it are currently in force (there are, of course, laws regulating it, which is a different matter).

GTH
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Dec 20, 2014 9:41:44 PM

rjhenn: "Actually, I detest extremists and dogmatists. Most of which, on this site, claim to be conservatives."

IOW, you detest conservatives, but fail to see liberals as "extremists and dogmatists." Otherwise, the one in the White House would be a great big example of both.

Thank you for once again proving my point that you are a liberal.

GTH
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 20, 2014 1:51:49 PM

"Wow, so that explains laws against abortion, drugs and gay marriage."

What laws against abortion are you referring to? Abortion is a right guaranteed by the Supreme Court. There were several years of a Democratic supermajority, if this were an issue, Democratics should have seized the opportunity. As far as gay marriage, I know of no one who wants to prevent anyone from interfering with love. The issue for many is the redefinition of marriage. There's no reason individual laws can not be changed to incorporated gay couples. But, when gay marriage has to be accepted by religious institutions, that creates some justifiable concern.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Dec 20, 2014 9:48:16 AM

>>Certainly. But neither Palin nor Bachmann is a good example of "a strong woman" with "conservative views".>>

Just as I would not describe Louie Gohmert as a "strong man" with "conservative views."
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 20, 2014 2:01:56 AM

BigJake - Conservatives want to stay in office and in power. Their plan is to make the rich dependent on the government for handouts and freebies.

More handouts = more dependency = more power for them.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 20, 2014 2:00:19 AM

teacher_tim - "Liberals believe they should use other people's money to force others to behave and think the way liberals want them to, because liberals know what is best for everyone."

Wow, so that explains laws against abortion, drugs and gay marriage.

IOW, conservatives using the power of government ("other people's money") to force others to behave and think the way conservatives want them to, because conservatives know what is best for everyone.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 20, 2014 1:57:43 AM

gas_too_high - "Politifact is known to have a liberal bias. No surprise."

"Politifact is known to have a liberal bias" simply because they don't have a conservative bias. And you, like too many conservatives and liberals, see things purely in black-and-white.

"As usual, you detest conservatives and liberals -- especially conservatives."

Your usual objection to reality, when it doesn't agree with your biases. Actually, I detest extremists and dogmatists. Most of which, on this site, claim to be conservatives.

"Nothing you say changes my position that liberals attack conservative women."

Nothing seems to be able to change any of your positions.

And do you deny that conservatives attack liberal women?

"I have seen attacks on Palin and Bachmann bordering on hysterical. Some liberals cannot seem to grasp that a strong woman can hold conservative views without being some kind of freak or psycho."

Certainly. But neither Palin nor Bachmann is a good example of "a strong woman" with "conservative views".

"I have never run across any similar attack on Nancy Pelosi, Elizabeth Warren, or even Hillary Clinton."

Probably because you agree with any attacks on liberal women, but are highly sensitive to any attacks on conservative women.

"In Clinton's case, attacks on her are based on the many skeletons in her closet, from Whitewater to Benghazi. Yet, she has not received anything like the vitriol of the conservative women I have mentioned."

BS. While I'm not a fan of either Clinton, most of the "many skeletons in her closet" are the product of conspiracy wackos and political opportunists.
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BigJake
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Message Posted: Dec 19, 2014 10:25:39 AM

Liberals want to stay in office and in power. Their plan is to make the poor dependent on the government for handouts and freebies.

More handouts = more dependency = more power for them.
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Dec 19, 2014 10:18:45 AM

"Liberals use one sheet of TP. "
Now we know why their hands stink up everything they touch
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teacher_tim
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Message Posted: Dec 19, 2014 7:16:53 AM

Liberals believe they should use other people's money to force others to behave and think the way liberals want them to, because liberals know what is best for everyone.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Dec 19, 2014 7:04:03 AM

rjhenn: " Bachmann was rated by Politifact as having the worst record for accuracy by far of any 2012 presidential candidate. "

Politifact is known to have a liberal bias. No surprise.

"Pelosi is sometimes dogmatic, often deceptive, and always playing politics, but Bachmann is delusional. "

As usual, you detest conservatives and liberals -- especially conservatives.

Nothing you say changes my position that liberals attack conservative women. I have seen attacks on Palin and Bachmann bordering on hysterical. Some liberals cannot seem to grasp that a strong woman can hold conservative views without being some kind of freak or psycho.

I have never run across any similar attack on Nancy Pelosi, Elizabeth Warren, or even Hillary Clinton. In Clinton's case, attacks on her are based on the many skeletons in her closet, from Whitewater to Benghazi. Yet, she has not received anything like the vitriol of the conservative women I have mentioned.

GTH
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Dec 18, 2014 7:00:43 PM

Liberals use one sheet of TP. Conservatives use three. {:>)
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 18, 2014 6:46:41 PM

gas_too_high - "Demonstrating, once again, your liberal bent, however much you want to deny it."

No, demonstrating the acute paranoia and dogmatism of both extremes. Bachmann was rated by Politifact as having the worst record for accuracy by far of any 2012 presidential candidate. Like some of the 'conservatives' here, she claims that “When the left argues, they argue from emotionalism” and that she tells the truth, attacks false premises and makes evidence-based arguments, when the reality is that that's pure projection.

Pelosi is sometimes dogmatic, often deceptive, and always playing politics, but Bachmann is delusional.
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Dec 18, 2014 9:34:39 AM

"But how many times, and right here on these pages do we see conservatives trying to claim that liberalism is a disease?"

Liberalism is more of a disorder then a Disease.
Liberals cant spend enough of their own money... they need to also spend other peoples money.

A disorder can be cured by therapy & medication.


[Edited by: PopcornPirate at 12/18/2014 9:34:58 AM EST]
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 17, 2014 11:34:29 PM

"While I, personally, don't think much of Nancy, I haven't noticed her making statements anywhere near as outré as what I've often heard from Bachmann or, less often, from Palin."

Perhaps you missed this one.

Nancy Pelosi: "But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy."

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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Dec 17, 2014 11:01:27 PM

rjhenn: "While I, personally, don't think much of Nancy, I haven't noticed her making statements anywhere near as outré as what I've often heard from Bachmann or, less often, from Palin. "

Demonstrating, once again, your liberal bent, however much you want to deny it.

GTH
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Dec 17, 2014 7:57:52 PM

And that outre' may serve as a hint of just what I'm talking about, rjh.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 17, 2014 6:46:47 PM

You weren't talking about the mainstream media, you were talking about "a liberal attacking a conservative woman." I was just pointing out one instance of a "liberal woman" who is often viciously attacked by conservatives.

While I, personally, don't think much of Nancy, I haven't noticed her making statements anywhere near as outré as what I've often heard from Bachmann or, less often, from Palin.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Dec 17, 2014 1:23:58 PM

rjhenn: Don't you mean Sarah Palin? Or Michelle Bachman?

Nancy Pelosi has not been savaged in the mainstream media, anything like the treatment given to Palin or Bachman.

GTH
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 17, 2014 12:15:46 PM

gas_too_high - "Except a liberal attacking a conservative woman."

One name (of several possible): Nancy Pelosi.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Dec 16, 2014 6:41:04 AM

Cirdan: "There is NOTHING more vicious than a Liberal attacking a Black conservative."

Except a liberal attacking a conservative woman.

GTH
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 16, 2014 3:18:43 AM

SemiSteve - "I hear liberals talking about the policies of conservatives, disagreeing with them, but I don't really hear people saying that conservativism is a mental disorder, or a disease."

You just don't hang out in the right ("left") places.
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Dec 16, 2014 12:18:29 AM

Keep trying to convince yourselves of that.

There is NOTHING more vicious than a Liberal attacking a Black conservative.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Dec 15, 2014 7:31:54 PM

And so have I seen both degrees of respect from conservatives, rjh.

But I have never seen a bumper sticker that says "Not a Conservative", as if there is shame associated with being one.

I hear liberals talking about the policies of conservatives, disagreeing with them, but I don't really hear people saying that conservativism is a mental disorder, or a disease.

But how many times, and right here on these pages do we see conservatives trying to claim that liberalism is a disease?

We don't see liberals claiming that conservatives actually want to destroy the country. But we do see conservatives saying that liberals want to destroy the USA.

I'm sure if you look at the extremes one can find liberals who think like that. But there are so few of them they are hard to find. Sadly the conservative extremes are well represented. There just seem to be more extreme conservatives than extreme liberals.

I guess that is why right wing hate groups outnumber left wing ones by something like 500 to 1.

There is no shame in holding a political view. Doesn't matter whether it is conservative or liberal. But to hear numerous conservatives talk about it, there is if your views are liberal. We just don't see much of that on the liberal side.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 15, 2014 6:03:03 PM

SemiSteve - "Are liberals more respectful of others than conservatives?"

Steve, I've run into many self-identified liberals or progressives who are just as closed-minded and disrespectful of differing opinions as they think conservatives are.

I've also run into conservatives that are open-minded and accepting of others.

It tends to be the extremes that are the worst. Unfortunately, extremism seems to be becoming the norm.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 15, 2014 7:47:32 AM

"Because conservatives have put it out there that it is shameful to disagree with them; but liberals are more open minded, allowing diversity in other views, and understanding that it takes all views to make our country work."

Try putting that theory to test in any university as a conservative student.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Dec 15, 2014 7:20:10 AM

GTH: "What I see is that conservatives openly call themselves conservative. But liberals are afraid to call themselves liberal, ... "

Because conservatives have put it out there that it is shameful to disagree with them; but liberals are more open minded, allowing diversity in other views, and understanding that it takes all views to make our country work.

Are liberals more respectful of others than conservatives?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 15, 2014 2:44:02 AM

Cirdan - "I've been watching Prime Minister Question hour (UK) on PBS going back to Thatcher's days. One common theme throughout - EVERYONE complaining about the NHS. Both the majority party (regardless of who it is at the moment) and the opposition."

Not sure what the NHS has to do with anything.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 15, 2014 2:43:02 AM

gas_too_high - "The fact you use the word "Extremist" for conservatives and not liberals, speaks volumes."

The fact that you can't, or won't, distinguish between moderate views and extremist views speaks volumes.

"Yes, I get you want a one-size-fits-all healthcare system, run by unelected bureaucrats with no market accountability whatsoever, not even the minimal market involvement that Obamacare allows."

No, you don't get it, as your strawman demonstrates. I'm looking for universal single-payer health insurance, not a government-run healthcare system. Under such a system, healthcare providers would still have market accountability. Providers that didn't provide adequate services wouldn't have patients.

"Even if you are an idiosyncratic liberal instead of a doctrinaire one, your views are still best described as 'liberal.'"

Where "liberal" views are rational, I'm a liberal, where "conservative" views are rational, I'm a conservative.

Unlike some here, who take their positions from the "team" they identify with.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 12/15/2014 2:47:25 AM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Dec 15, 2014 2:39:04 AM

theTower - "Judging by what some of them do, absolutely. And the fact that the liberal itself doesn't seem to feel shame for its actions, other people should point that out at every opportunity."

And exactly the same can be said about conservatives.
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Dec 15, 2014 12:48:21 AM

I've been watching Prime Minister Question hour (UK) on PBS going back to Thatcher's days. One common theme throughout - EVERYONE complaining about the NHS. Both the majority party (regardless of who it is at the moment) and the opposition.
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Dec 14, 2014 2:10:01 PM

gas_too_high - "But on 3 issues more central to the conservative/liberal divide -- the size and role of government as exemplified by Obamacare, the right to life, and the definition of marriage -- your positions are unabashedly liberal. Indeed, you have indicated that you don't think Obamacare goes far enough, which is a position to the left of many liberals, including the one in the White House."

rjhenn: "That's because, on those issues, the liberal arguments make sense and the extremist conservative ones don't."

The fact you use the word "Extremist" for conservatives and not liberals, speaks volumes.

"As for ObamaCare, my position is that it's needlessly bureaucratic and complex and that a much simpler single-payer health insurance system, similar to Canada's, would make a lot more sense."

Yes, I get you want a one-size-fits-all healthcare system, run by unelected bureaucrats with no market accountability whatsoever, not even the minimal market involvement that Obamacare allows.

Trusting the government over free markets is a classic liberal position.

Even if you are an idiosyncratic liberal instead of a doctrinaire one, your views are still best described as "liberal."

GTH
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