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Author Topic: Wht Can We Do About Our 'Edjumacation'? Back to Topics
MahopacJack

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Message Posted: Oct 19, 2013 1:41:21 PM

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US Department of Education Report shows US adults ranking among the worst in Math skills and less than the world's average in literacy.

From the link, "The U.S. Department of Education's National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) on Friday released the initial results of an international survey of adult skills in literacy and mathematics, revealing that Americans rank 21st in “numeracy” and are tied for 15th in literacy among adults in 23 advanced economies.

American adults also scored below the average in both numeracy and literacy for all respondents in all 23 advanced economies."

As a Nation we've virtually thrown money at the problem since The Department of Education became a cabinet level position in 1980. According to this 2010 Cato Analysis, public schools spend '93 percent more than the estimated median for private shool.'

Our intelligence, or lack thereof, certainly appears to be NOT correlated to taxpayer funding. What can we do about this major problem? Is this just another Governmental boondoggle that needs to be restructured or even eliminated? If the Department has made no inroads in over 30 years, shouldn't it be made to justify it budget?
~

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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 2:22:49 PM

I think the concept of victimhood is interesting but possibly reading a bit too much into the situation. And there is no concrete link showing the victimhoood angle is the culprit.

Rather, I believe it is an ingrained dependence upon government assistance based on being raised that way.

People tend to emulate their parents.

New immigrants would have nothing to go on; so would be inclined to figure things out for themselves. Not knowing how hard it is to make it on their own they are inclined to try.

Children of welfare families are shown how easy it is to live on the dole from birth. Where is the stimulus for them to try to do it differently than their parents? Especially when they are not encouraged to do so.
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MahopacJack
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Dec 7, 2013 2:48:42 PM

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Can this be the answer?

From Thomas Sowell's December 3rd article," What do low-income whites in England and ghetto blacks in the United States have in common? It cannot be simply low incomes, because children from other groups in the same low-income brackets outperform whites in England and outperform blacks in America.

What low-income whites in England and ghetto blacks in the United States have in common is a generations-long indoctrination in victimhood. The political left in both countries has, for more than half a century, maintained a steady and loud drumbeat of claims that the deck is stacked against those at the bottom.

The American left uses race and the British left uses class, but the British left has been at it longer. In both countries, immigrants who have not been in the country as long have not been so distracted by such ideology into a blind resentment and lashing out at other people.

In both countries, immigrants enter a supposedly closed society that refuses to let anyone rise -- and they nevertheless rise, while the native-born at the bottom remain at the bottom.

Those who promote an ideology of victimhood may imagine that they are helping those at the bottom, when in fact they are harming them, more so than the society that the left is denouncing. "
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MahopacJack
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2013 4:27:28 PM

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"U.S. students continue to perform poorly on international tests, with 15-year-olds scoring in the middle of the global pack on the latest math, reading and science tests administered by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. "

Also from the link, " In math, the U.S. ranked 26th in the world, on par with nations such as Hungary, Russia and the Slovak Republic. American students had particular trouble with geometry, modeling and real-world applications of mathematical concepts.

In science, the U.S. came in 21st, ahead of Russia and at the same level as Italy, Latvia and Portugal.

In reading, the U.S. posted its best showing, with a rank of 17th in the world, on equal footing with the United Kingdom, France and Austria."
~
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2013 11:19:45 AM

Her father was right there helping her sell the mistletoe.

The whole thing is a nothing story.

Just another example of sleazy sensationalist infotainment.

FOX News trying their best to stir up controversy where none exists.

Typical.
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KatmanDo
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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2013 12:05:55 AM

" She found out that it is illegal to conduct business there without the proper credentials. So what's the problem? All she has to do is get the required paperwork and she can sell all the mistletoe she wants."

In my experience, such credentials would only be issued to adults. However, I suppose one of her parents might obtain them for her.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2013 7:19:32 PM

Tower that's ridiculous. What kind of lesson does it teach the little girl if she's allowed to break the law?

Of course she should be taught that work is worthwhile but she also needs to understand that she needs to follow the law as well.

If she wants to sell mistletoe all she has to do is get a business license and adhere to local laws.

The story indicates there is a weekly marketplace with permitted and licensed vendors. She found out that it is illegal to conduct business there without the proper credentials. So what's the problem? All she has to do is get the required paperwork and she can sell all the mistletoe she wants.

That story is nothing but another typical Fox News trumped-up molehill sensationalized piece of infotainment. What garbage. Talk about sleazy journalism; here's your sign.

[Edited by: SemiSteve at 12/4/2013 7:19:24 PM EST]
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MahopacJack
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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2013 11:19:48 AM

Katmando, >>It seems to me that when the typical GOP pol is participating in a campaign that their frequent reference to "the job creators" usually means primarily the small business owner. They don't seem to convey that the Fortune 500 companies are even significant when it comes to reducing the unemployment rate.<<
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Its because large corporations are reluctant to add jobs. The real job growth is from small and medium businesses that are growing market share and doing most of the innovating.
~
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theTower
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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2013 10:09:42 AM

Maybe we should look at what we teach instead of how it gets taught.
It appears the Oregon girl who was told she could not sell mistletoe in a public park, but could beg for money to pay for her braces

So when we teach children its ok to beg and not work for money, what kind of precedent are we setting for when they get older and realize that there are just too many hoops to jump through to to earn money that its just easier to sit on your butt and get hand outs.
We are sending the complete wrong message with these kinds of lessons being taught to children.
Kids should be encouraged to work hard and take risks not to rely on the notion that if life gets too tough there will always be hand outs to bail you out.
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KatmanDo
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Message Posted: Dec 4, 2013 12:37:21 AM

" News flash: There are jobs outside of fortune 500 companies."

It seems to me that when the typical GOP pol is participating in a campaign that their frequent reference to "the job creators" usually means primarily the small business owner. They don't seem to convey that the Fortune 500 companies are even significant when it comes to reducing the unemployment rate.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Dec 3, 2013 2:43:48 PM

Unlike most other major nations the US does not have centrally organized education, leaving it up to the whimsy of the States.

The States don't seem to be highly enough concerned with results.

Perhaps we should give the ED some teeth and let it really control education? After all, it takes the hit for having this power so it only makes sense.

[Edited by: SemiSteve at 12/3/2013 2:52:34 PM EST]
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Dec 3, 2013 9:37:46 AM

What college offers a degree in Astrology? Good Lord!
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PopcornPirate
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Message Posted: Dec 3, 2013 8:58:18 AM

The Zoology probably helped him in his middle management position....
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streetrider
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Message Posted: Dec 3, 2013 8:04:35 AM

The fact that colleges offer full range of courses even what is considered outside the range of what some folks think need be offered, just makes that university more fully rounded.

Two middle managers in a fortune 500 company held degrees at first look made one think why?

Zoology, the other in Astrology.

Most of the time a degree is looked at as a person that can comprehend and follow through no matter what discipline it is in.
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wbacon
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Message Posted: Dec 3, 2013 5:30:57 AM

Wouldn't it be logical and do a 180 on policy? Like abolishing the US department of Education? Eliminate government run schools? And return to choice and freedom in education? What a concept!!!!
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Dec 2, 2013 10:07:03 PM

No need to take it personally. It was a legitimate question.
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: Dec 2, 2013 9:24:28 PM

sgm: "And if the parents are unable to pay, what then? The child goes without? Never marshals the ability to become productive? Great plan! "


I was responding to a previous poster who was trying to make the case that private schools appear to do better only because they don't take special needs kids. I guess in your haste to try to slam me you didn't bother to look at the context in which I wrote my post.


mudtoe
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PiqueOil
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Message Posted: Dec 2, 2013 8:28:35 PM


"Our intelligence, or lack thereof, certainly appears to be NOT correlated to taxpayer funding. What can we do about this major problem?"

My suggestion is that you get an education first, then attempt to share your little theories about taxes and intelligence.

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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Dec 2, 2013 4:02:26 PM

flyboyUT:

"One thing we might consider is to stop offering absolute garbage like this [link to a college course studying drag culture using a TV show as the main subject]

I was under the impression that college was supposed to provide an education to function in society and provide the means to a job or profession. I honestly dont think a prospective employer like a Fortune 500 company really care much about how you think about deviants like this."

--How to function in society includes knowing about various persuasions, does it not? News flash: There are jobs outside of fortune 500 companies. Entertainment, social work, news media, etc. The course may not be for everybody but it has merit. Your opinion of it does not change that.
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Dec 2, 2013 11:35:05 AM

<<I suspect that if the parents are able and willing to pay for all those extra services a special needs kid requires, they will be able to find a private school able and willing to provide them.>>

And if the parents are unable to pay, what then? The child goes without? Never marshals the ability to become productive? Great plan!
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Dec 1, 2013 6:37:21 PM

sgm4law
If they do take away your decoder ring, you can always go outside and ride your made in China radio-flyer.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Dec 1, 2013 3:17:22 PM

Careful there SGM - them libfolks are gonna take away your Buck Rodgers (or is it Duck Dodgers) decoder ring and stuff if your caught agreeing with one of them rascally cottonheaded cons. snicker smile
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Dec 1, 2013 2:30:47 PM

"When administration slugs and sports are emphasized more than actual academics there might be a problem ya think?"

I can agree with that.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Dec 1, 2013 1:27:55 PM

One thing we might consider is to stop offering absolute garbage like this

I was under the impression that college was supposed to provide an education to function in society and provide the means to a job or profession. I honestly dont think a prospective employer like a Fortune 500 company really care much about how you think about deviants like this.

Another example of why kids get out of college with no education.
.
>>>Confronted with a $5 million budget deficit, Minnesota State University at Moorhead has decided to simply jettison some of its academic departments

History, English and physics are currently on the chopping block. The university’s administrative division, however, is not.

The same thing is happening at the University of the District of Columbia, where the board recently considered eliminating 20 academic programs–contrary to the wishes of President James Lyons, who preferred to scrutinize the university’s sports budget budget. The NCAA Division II athletic program at UDC loses $3 million each year.

For now, the university is leaving its athletic program intact — and killing off 17 academic programs.<<<

When administration slugs and sports are emphasized more than actual academics there might be a problem ya think?
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: Dec 1, 2013 11:51:29 AM

I suspect that if the parents are able and willing to pay for all those extra services a special needs kid requires, they will be able to find a private school able and willing to provide them. Free markets work every time they are tried. You don't really think that a special needs child of a rock star ends up in a public school special ed program do you?


mudtoe





[Edited by: mudtoe at 12/1/2013 11:54:03 AM EST]
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NickHammer
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Message Posted: Nov 30, 2013 4:32:43 PM

>>Charter schools won't take special needs kids.
They don't have to.
Private schools won't take kids with behavioral problem histories.
They don't have to.
But public schools do.<<

And if kids in private schools have learning difficulties (reading, for instance, as my friend's kid has), the private school will either bring in a specialist - a county specialist, paid for by the public school system - or send the kid to a public school where the specialist is.

As Steve said, "Force private schools to take all students and watch their success suddenly look like public schools." It's not as simple as getting rid of public schools, giving parents vouchers, and letting them pick and choose where to send their kids, as some have suggested.
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MahopacJack
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Message Posted: Nov 30, 2013 1:54:32 PM

>>I agree. Only comparisons between student bodies which are similar in every way are meaningful. <<

And, >>Good home, good student.<<

And, >>It seems to be glaringly obvious that comparing inner city schools to 'burb schools is rather disingenuous.
Try comparing apples to apples.<<

And, >>--OK. Totally not following your point. If we have well-rounded schools that introduce kids to the vast possibilities in life as well as teaching the basics, how does that teach them to be dependent upon others?<<

And, >>The supposed "Lagging US numbers" are because we test EVERYONE, including special needs students. Most other countries only test the students who qualified for college-prep high school by taking a test in 7th grade or the equivalent. <<

~
Really?

How do you explain this disturbing video?

It makes Kansasgunman's post, "The only education available today without a thorough brainwashing and indoctrination into Liberalism's world of "progressive thinking" is through Private education as the NEA and AFT killed public education many years ago.

Today, it no longer matters whether two plus two equal four, what matters is, does the little fellow feel good about their answer.

It comes as no surprise that American Industry hires and employees so many people from other countries (such as India, Japan and China) in the high-tech industry while leaving the low level low paying service jobs to the average American and illegals clamoring across the border." all the more relevant.

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streetrider
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Message Posted: Nov 30, 2013 8:31:08 AM

SemiSteve

"Charter schools won't take special needs kids.
They don't have to.
Private schools won't take kids with behavioral problem histories.
They don't have to.
But public schools do.
Direct comparisons of results are thus meaningless."

You are correct Charter schools wont take special needs kids, unless that is their speciality.
There are private schools that take behavioral problem kids.
(usually religious ones).

Because of public schools open door policy it makes it paramount for parents that care about their Childs education to live in areas where the children have a higher degree of family participation and or are better behaved.
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KatmanDo
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Message Posted: Nov 9, 2013 12:41:16 AM

"Direct comparisons of results are thus meaningless."

I agree. Only comparisons between student bodies which are similar in every way are meaningful.
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2013 9:18:07 AM

"Either spend a buck on education or you spend more on welfare and prisons"

Very true. I'd rather spend the money on prevention, because a better-educated populace will help the overall economy, too.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2013 9:16:40 AM

Charter schools won't take special needs kids.

They don't have to.

Private schools won't take kids with behavioral problem histories.

They don't have to.

But public schools do.

Direct comparisons of results are thus meaningless.
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PopcornPirate
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Message Posted: Nov 8, 2013 9:13:04 AM

""Either spend a buck on education or you spend more on welfare and prisons""
But where you draw the line is very blurred.
More money will not solve the problem.
Knowledge .... is the key.
Teach practical things. Computer skills, desk skills, everyday skills they will need when they get out of school & in the workplace.
Not everyone is college material.
Not everyone can afford college.

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streetrider
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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2013 11:30:11 PM

Steve much of what you say is true, except the students are not necessarily cherry picked as much as they come from parents that are interest in their child's development and send them to schools where teachers don't have to deal with the child's behavior problems.

Should a caring parent be able to take his share of the child's education money to a private school?

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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2013 11:16:43 PM

Private schools have better results because they cherry pick only the best students. Public schools have to take all applicants. Private schools only take the cream.

Force private schools to take all students and watch their success suddenly look like public schools.

As has been noted many many times, a student's success in school begins at home.

Good home, good student.

Broken home, well, you get the idea.
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2013 10:55:04 PM

The demand will be met by new private schools.
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NickHammer
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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2013 3:01:49 PM

>>Unfortunately there is not enough private schools to fill the demand.<<

Is you sure about that, MJ?
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Nov 6, 2013 10:13:14 PM

vouchers could be a good thing.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 11:06:33 PM

Well Mudtoe - I went to Catholic schools from 1st all through High School. However I did see the effects of public schools when I went to college. The other kids were not prepared to learn, they had poor skills in the basics and failed at an astounding rate.

I think the unions need to be told to go fly a kite adn the schools need toi be privatized and competition will bring up the overall level of successful students.

Thats just my experience and its dated of course but I think its still valid.
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 10:57:53 PM

flyboy: "You know that old free market thing."


You've just spoken fighting words to the left and the teachers union.


If you want to know why our public schools continue to suck no matter how much money we pour into them, and vouchers, which make sense, never happen, here's the reason:


The real reason our public schools stink



mudtoe

[Edited by: mudtoe at 11/4/2013 10:58:14 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 10:47:54 PM

MJ as an exercise for the student ----- if private schools work so well that people are making great efforts to get their kids in them - why not just give all parents a voucher adn let them send their kids where they think best.

You know that old free market thing.
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MahopacJack
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 10:31:00 PM

>>It seems to be glaringly obvious that comparing inner city schools to 'burb schools is rather disingenuous. Try comparing apples to apples.<<
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Then, as the topic asked, " Wht Can We Do About Our 'Edjumacation'?" in our inner city schools?

Results are terrible in public schools. Parents and students compete vigorously to gain entrance into private schools. Unfortunately there is not enough private schools to fill the demand.
~

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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 9:09:50 PM

It seems to be glaringly obvious that comparing inner city schools to 'burb schools is rather disingenuous.

Try comparing apples to apples.
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KatmanDo
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Message Posted: Nov 1, 2013 11:55:31 PM

"The schools are getting the money and still are not doing their jobs. Less expensively run schools in the suburbs are producing much better graduation rates."

Graduation rates hardly seem like a meaningful measure of a school's effectiveness, in my view. About the only meaningful measure of a school would be the value added to each pupil: What does the pupil know after completing a class that they didn't know beforehand. Much of the rest of what a school does is affected by the socioeconomic circumstances of their pupils -- something the school has no control over.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 9:13:15 PM

Good point. Either spend a buck on education or you spend more on welfare and prisons.

Of course education spending has to be done smartly. It's not simply a matter of spending it. It has to be put into the right areas.
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mnrick041
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Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 8:50:46 PM

SemiSteve: "Every dollar we cut from education will force us to spend two on prisons."

I somewhat agree with that in the sense that the less education you have the more likely you are to be on welfare or in prison at some point in your life.

However, Minneapolis spends more per student than any other school in the State and they are among the worse in graduation rates for students of all races. Is money the answer for a school system like Minneapolis?

The schools are getting the money and still are not doing their jobs. Less expensively run schools in the suburbs are producing much better graduation rates.

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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 7:36:13 PM

Every dollar we cut from education will force us to spend two on prisons.
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mnrick041
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Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 6:39:30 PM

In the local Minneapolis news today was a story about our graduation rates here.

25% percent for American Indians, 36% for blacks and 70% for white and Asian students. NONE of those numbers is anything for a city to be proud of. The numbers are sad across the board but why are they so much worse for blacks and Indians?

Maybe I am wrong for assuming this but most of the white people who can afford to do so either move out of Minneapolis or they send their kids to private schools. I would guess that most of the white kids left over in the Minneapolis public schools probably are not substantially better off financially than their black, Hispanic or Indian classmates.

Regardless of their race these kids are the future of America. Either the public schools need do better to educate them or we are just going to continue to expand the welfare state and prison populations.

[Edited by: mnrick041 at 10/31/2013 6:43:46 PM EST]
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 7:59:22 AM

Inspite of shifting demographic some localities still plan new school buildings.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 7:53:01 AM

Well put, sgm4law.

I am sensing a trend here.

Doesn't it seem like conservative Republican 'solutions' to problems always favor the rich and powerful at the expense of the rest?
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worryfree
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Message Posted: Oct 30, 2013 6:00:34 PM

Funny how many of the states that blocked Obamacare coverage for their poorest also have some of the worst education. Maybe the politicians are victims of their own state's poor educational system...
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MahopacJack
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Oct 30, 2013 5:29:00 PM

>>Raise wages by destroying unions.<<
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Not exactly but increasing the buying power of the general public while at the same time increasing DOMESTIC employment opportunities by pointing out the numerous problems associated with union monopolies in an industry does have very positive overall effect on our economy.
~
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