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Author Topic: Fertilizer Plant Explodes! Could it have been prevented? Back to Topics
eldiablopoco

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Message Posted: Apr 18, 2013 10:40:48 PM

State officials require all facilities that handle anhydrous ammonia to have sprinklers and other safety measures because it is a flammable substance, according to Mike Wilson, head of air permitting for the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality.

But inspectors would not necessarily check for such mechanisms, and it's not known whether they did when the West plant was last inspected in 2006, said Ramiro Garcia, head of enforcement and compliance.The complete article
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AC-302
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Message Posted: May 12, 2013 10:32:48 AM

RNorm - and 19 were killed at the Richland refinery. So what's your point? Again, why did this accident occur? Was it due to CA budget cuts? Was it due to oversight by CAL OSHA? Was it due to corruption and payoffs? Let the process work itself out before we pass judgement in EITHER case.

AND before you get too far, remember what sprinklers (and water) prevent. They help prevent fires from BURNING SOLIDS (wood, paper, etc). That might not help in the case of a gas leak, so they may not have been required to put them in. Now, as to blast walls, that also depends. Were they storing solvent and needed a "weak wall"? No blast wall would help if a reactor exploded from within. And I'm not sure if they design these factories with leaks in mind (ie: every room or confined space having a blowout wall).

As to water deluge, I grant you that such a system can be used to displace a vapor, at least, potentially, and can cool something that's hot. But if you have a burning liquid, an electrical fire, or a metal fire, water is the LAST thing you want. I suspect that burning liquids should more probably have been the hazard. Let's see if they had something like a Halon system, or a dry chem system in place. The fact that they didn't have WATER sprinklers wouldn't concern me if the law took into account the hazard and OSHA concurred they didn't need them for the hazard.

btw - I once worked at an explosives plant for a short time. We did have some sprinklers, and the floors were metal (to prevent static discharges) They had a different safety system. Theirs was that the buildings had dirt berms on the long sides, and escape chutes and escape ladders on short sides. They were trying to force any potential blast UPWARDS.
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RNorm
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Message Posted: May 11, 2013 7:37:11 PM

"Let's let the investigation play out before we go off and say either the company, or the investigators were negligent or paid off."


Um, you work with dangerous compounds and have no fire sprinklers in your facility???

C'mon man.

There were no sprinklers. No firewalls. No water deluge systems. Safety inspections were rare at the fertilizer company in West, Texas, that exploded and killed at least 14 people
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: May 11, 2013 7:05:53 PM

My friend - in BOTH cases, we have to acknowledge the accident AND investigate it for the reasons why. We can't go off on half-cock in either instance. Let's let the investigation play out before we go off and say either the company, or the investigators were negligent or paid off. If it was negligence, then punish the guilty, by all means! And I mean that in BOTH industrial accidents. You won't hear me say anything like: "Oh, don't punish Texas 'cause they're Republicans", any more than I would expect you to say: "Don't punish California, 'cause they're fellow Democrats" - which means I wouldn't expect you to say that.

And again, is there rampant fraud going on in Texas? Is there in California? If so, in either case, does it extend all the way to the governor's office (of either state)? I would think not, in either place.
IMHO, it was still wrong of the Bee to publish that cartoon. Thinly veiled or not, it directly blames Gov. Perry for a situation at a private company that he didn't cause, directly nor indirectly. I wouldn't blame our Governor "Moonbeam" for the Richland refinery fire either.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 11, 2013 9:22:23 AM

"Again, I'd tell you that our state should have been able to "prevent" the Richland refinery fire. They didn't. This is no different IMHO than the accident in West, and you ought to acknowlege that. You can't blame one without also blaming the other. "


What I will acknowledge is that accidents happen. However there is a difference between an accident that just happens and one that is a result of negligence.

And there are times where negligence is criminalized. We shall see what happens with both of these accidents and then we'll know whether there was negligence, criminal negligence involved in both or not.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: May 10, 2013 10:32:01 PM

RNorm said: "What I've said is that when you have a climate that looks the other way when companies do not comply with regulatory obligations and reporting you create an environment where accidents are more prone to happen. You know, like on wall street where people break the law when they know the SEC isn't looking. THAT's the difference."

--OK but let's get back to that CA refinery explosion. Here, you have a presumably a state OSHA that might also be looking the other way, because they're overwhelmed. But even if we say they're OVER ZEALOUS, then why did this accident occur in San Raphael? I might contend that our fool regulators are "paper pushers" that don't understand how to actually inspect a factory. In my CA experience, the fools are more interested in violations of paperwork, than real violations. Why so? Because it's easier to understand and inspect paperwork than to study and understand a real factory. And paperwork mistakes generate lots and lots of fines. Even misspelling a chemcial name can cost you big bucks, even if you haven't polluted anything with that chemical (no release).

Again, I'd tell you that our state should have been able to "prevent" the Richland refinery fire. They didn't. This is no different IMHO than the accident in West, and you ought to acknowlege that. You can't blame one without also blaming the other. It's not Perry's fault, it's not Brown's fault. But it was poor form for the Suckramento Bee to publish that cartoon blaming Perry.
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: May 10, 2013 5:11:20 PM

So this might be an act of sabotage or terrorism.


mudtoe
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RNorm
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Message Posted: May 10, 2013 3:38:48 PM

"WACO, Texas (AP) — Texas law enforcement officials on Friday launched a criminal investigation into the massive fertilizer plant explosion that killed 14 people last month, after weeks of largely treating the blast as an industrial accident.

The announcement came the same day that a paramedic who helped to evacuate residents the night of the explosion was arrested on a charge of possessing a destructive device, though it is not clear whether the charge is related to the April 17 blast at West Fertilizer Co.

The Texas Department of Public Safety said in a Friday statement that the agency had instructed the Texas Rangers and the McLennan County Sheriff's Department to conduct a criminal probe into the explosion.

"This disaster has severely impacted the community of West, and we want to ensure that no stone goes unturned and that all the facts related to this incident are uncovered," DPS Director Steven McCraw said.

McLennan County Sheriff Parnell McNamara said residents "must have confidence that this incident has been looked at from every angle and professionally handled — they deserve nothing less."



The statement did not detail any further reasons for the criminal investigation and said no additional information would be released.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 1:49:21 PM

"Yes...as long as he only took what was proportional to what the people of his state pay in federal tax. Not because of his beliefs but because it is the right thing to do for the people of his state that pay taxes. What is so difficult to understand?"


Well first of all, he didn't balance the budget, so lets be honest about that. Secondly, thanks to the program that he denounced and intimated secession over, i.e., the stimulus, he was able to get money to balance the budget. So Perry's touting himself as a fiscal conservative that balances budgets is not true.

That's pretty easy to understand, for those willing to be honest and not partisan.
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AFSNCO
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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 1:31:42 PM

"LOL, if there are muddy waters, its from the "we let you do as you please" posture from Perry's administration."

Misinformation spread by the liberal media to attack Perry. What he has been trying to do is allow businesses to be businesses not run by the government. Too much regulation (see California) leads to poor business practices.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 1:29:24 PM

"Is it right to denounce the stimulus and then take the money to balance your budget and then pass yourself off as a fiscal conservative who balances budgets? That's a simple yes or no question."

Yes...as long as he only took what was proportional to what the people of his state pay in federal tax. Not because of his beliefs but because it is the right thing to do for the people of his state that pay taxes. What is so difficult to understand?

[Edited by: AFSNCO at 4/30/2013 1:31:35 PM EST]
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 1:28:15 PM

"RNorm, you are just trying to find anything to go after this guy because he got that R behind his name. It is no different than the press with Bush. You are just trying to muddy the waters from the original discussion into something else...and when I confronted you with a logical argument you went straight to the "iff" defense."

LOL, if there are muddy waters, its from the "we let you do as you please" posture from Perry's administration.




"Also, did I commend his budget or is that just your choice of words to keep an argument going? What I am saying is that if his state is paying their fair share of the pie to support the bailout shouldn't they get their fair share of the pie back?"

Ok, then lets make it plain.

Is it right to denounce the stimulus and then take the money to balance your budget and then pass yourself off as a fiscal conservative who balances budgets? That's a simple yes or no question.

The dude is a charlatan that speaks with a forked tongue, but because he's a republican, you can't bring yourself to say so.

No problem.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 1:24:45 PM

RNorm, you are just trying to find anything to go after this guy because he got that R behind his name. It is no different than the press with Bush. You are just trying to muddy the waters from the original discussion into something else...and when I confronted you with a logical argument you went straight to the "iff" defense.

Also, did I commend his budget or is that just your choice of words to keep an argument going? What I am saying is that if his state is paying their fair share of the pie to support the bailout shouldn't they get their fair share of the pie back?
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RNorm
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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 11:26:18 AM

I am sure that if a liberal governor used the same 3-card monty to balance their state budget and then promote their state as one that has a balanced budget, I am sure you would not be commending such budget gimmicks.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 11:15:21 AM

"How can you condemn the stimulus, but yet take stimulus to balance your state's budget and promote your administration as one that has a balanced budget???"

He was against it but after it passed it would be dumb for him not to use some of it to help his own tax payers. If they are footing the bill by paying income tax why shouldn't his state benefit? It is like you paying the gas tax to get gasoline that is used to support the highway system but then you only drive on unmaintained roads. You do not have to like paying the gas tax but every time you fill up your tank you do....and then you benefit by driving on the highways.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 11:12:16 AM

"Tell me, if OSHA and EPA regulations have to be followed, then why do US oil refineries only have to meet the 1972 EPA standards?"

That is because they grandfather in the laws because it will cost so much to bring it up to current standards. As they build new ones they usually require them to meet the current standard.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 11:10:51 AM

"I've only ever asked you and others to look at BOTH sides, and judge BOTH sides by the same standards. "


Ok, lets do that.

How can you condemn the stimulus, but yet take stimulus to balance your state's budget and promote your administration as one that has a balanced budget???

C'mon man, that's speaking with a forked tongue.








"If you say Perry's administrations' lax enforcement of rules is why the accident occured, then why is the same not true of Brown's administration?"

What I've said is that when you have a climate that looks the other way when companies do not comply with regulatory obligations and reporting you create an environment where accidents are more prone to happen. You know, like on wall street where people break the law when they know the SEC isn't looking. THAT's the difference.
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AC-302
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Message Posted: Apr 30, 2013 10:50:04 AM

RNorm said: "Translation: Perry gets a free pass for his hypocrisy in regards to the stimulus as well as a free pass for his 3-card monty budgetary gimmicks. Gotcha."

--Now, my friend, you and I have never played the fool "gotcha" game with each other. I've only ever asked you and others to look at BOTH sides, and judge BOTH sides by the same standards. You have to agree, many here, both lefties and righties, cannot and will not do that.

And again, I look at Perry and see a governor who is somewhat more business friendly, in a state that has a business friendly climate, that is siphoning jobs off of CA. I look at Brown and see a governor who plays to the employee unions, is looking to make the bullet train his everlasting legacy and has made this state one of the most business HOSTILE states in the union. (in fact the US Chamber of Commerce voted CA as having the most Buisness HOSTILE climate in the 50 states - heard that on McIntyre a few weeks ago). So West, TX has an industrial accident, and though you claim you're not saying Perry caused it, you still indirectly blame him, even though you say not really, you keep bringing him up. But I also don't hear anythying relating to the Richland Refinery accident (was that in San Rapahel?) If you say Perry's administrations' lax enforcement of rules is why the accident occured, then why is the same not true of Brown's administration? And again - all accidents are preventable. Sometimes you have a catastrophic failure of a piece of equipment. That isn't always predictable. Let's see where the data takes us before we blame Perry OR Brown for either of these accidents. Sure, it's easy to blame one or the other since they're "top dog". But why aren't we blaming the plant operators for misdeeds.
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RNorm
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 11:55:01 PM

"Now, if only Edmund G. "Jerry" Brown could figure out how to balance our budget - even with stimulus money, don't you think we'd be better off? "


Translation: Perry gets a free pass for his hypocrisy in regards to the stimulus as well as a free pass for his 3-card monty budgetary gimmicks.

Gotcha.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 11:18:42 PM

Now, if only Edmund G. "Jerry" Brown could figure out how to balance our budget - even with stimulus money, don't you think we'd be better off?
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 11:07:23 PM

"He's got you there, bro. We do need someone better and with better ideas than Governor Moonbeam and his "Brown Streak". No, and I wasn't aware that Perry was the first governor to ask for a bailout. I thought Texas was "solvent", unlike California? "


Looks like Perry has both of you (Its not like I make this stuff up):

"Texas Gov. Rick Perry likes to tell Washington to stop meddling in state affairs. He vocally opposed the Obama administration's 2009 stimulus program to spur the economy and assist cash-strapped states.

Perry also likes to trumpet that his state balanced its budget in 2009, while keeping billions in its rainy day fund.

But he couldn't have done that without a lot of help from ... guess where? Washington.

Turns out Texas was the state that depended the most on those very stimulus funds to plug nearly 97% of its shortfall for fiscal 2010, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.

Texas, which crafts a budget every two years, was facing a $6.6 billion shortfall for its 2010-2011 fiscal years. It plugged nearly all of that deficit with $6.4 billion in Recovery Act money, allowing it to leave its $9.1 billion rainy day fund untouched.

"Stimulus was very helpful in getting them through the last few years," said Brian Sigritz, director of state fiscal studies for the National Association of State Budget Officers, said of Texas.

Even as Perry requested the Recovery Act money, he railed against it. On the very same day he asked for the funds, he set up a petition titled "No Government Bailouts."


Perry uses the Stimulus money he railed against to Balance Texas' Budget Shortfall...
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AC-302
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 10:22:52 PM

btc1 claimed: "You seem to not be getting this. It makes no difference when the building was built. We are not referring to building code regulations. We are referring to OSHA and EPA regulations. They HAVE to be updated regardless of renovation or not. The regulations change, industry must change to meet them when they do. It has nothing to do with when the building was built.
Like I said, Texas, if they adopted primacy over the regulations from the Federal Government, Texas must enforce the Federal regulations at minimum. Otherwise the State of Texas can be brought into the problem of not meeting the regulations with the company BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT."

--Tell me, if OSHA and EPA regulations have to be followed, then why do US oil refineries only have to meet the 1972 EPA standards? Look it up if you don't believe me. And, no, not always do they have to meet 2013 standards for everything. You're wrong, btc1. And in some cases, it may not be possible due to technology or for construction reasons. And while OSHA would have federal preemption over TX laws, both still apply. What you seem to be claiming is that the TX law is weaker, and that the West plant only followed that, not OSHA. OK fine. Then where was OSHA? Why didn't they either enforce the laws and fine the place, or shut them down if it was such a safety hazard? That's the part you seem to be ignoring.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 10:16:41 PM

RNorm said: "Because Perry is the first to criticize the federal government, but yet also the first to demand that the federal government bail Texas out.
Surely you know this, so why do you give him a free pass for his actions and policies?"

Then AFSNCO responded: "Norm, what does the bail out and have to do with the fertilizer plant blowing up? You are just looking for any reason to criticize this guy because he is a Republican. Face it, you all need a governor like him in California to get some growth going. He has done very well in Texas with jobs and economic growth in a tough time."

--He's got you there, bro. We do need someone better and with better ideas than Governor Moonbeam and his "Brown Streak". No, and I wasn't aware that Perry was the first governor to ask for a bailout. I thought Texas was "solvent", unlike California? Oh, and as to those safety regulations, then why did that refinery blow up in the Bay area?? Safety regulations didn't help them that day. And no, I decry and mourn 19 innocent souls who burned up there, as well as the estimated 14 that died in the West disaster. I take no joy in either, and neither should not, and neither should the Sacramento Bee have done.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 10:04:14 PM

Yeah Jay - aint it great??????

All this wonderful area and only enough dyed in the wool liberals to add some spice to life...
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jayrad1957
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 6:33:33 PM

"And bankrupt cities in a state with some of the highest taxes...you can have it!"

Sounds fair. Norm and I will keep California, you can have Alabama.

[Edited by: jayrad1957 at 4/29/2013 6:34:43 PM EST]
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jayrad1957
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 6:31:49 PM

Fly, I could say the same about your fair state. Too many cons there for comfort.
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btc1
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 5:23:53 PM

Ac, "--This still sounds like blaming Gov. Perry, without directly saying so. Sure, poliices have consequences. But when was this ammonia plant built? It likely wasn't built under Perry's administration. It's probably much earlier. Why aren't you blaming the whole administration? You singled out the Governor by name."

You seem to not be getting this. It makes no difference when the building was built. We are not referring to building code regulations. We are referring to OSHA and EPA regulations. They HAVE to be updated regardless of renovation or not. The regulations change, industry must change to meet them when they do. It has nothing to do with when the building was built.

Like I said, Texas, if they adopted primacy over the regulations from the Federal Government, Texas must enforce the Federal regulations at minimum. Otherwise the State of Texas can be brought into the problem of not meeting the regulations with the company BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.



[Edited by: btc1 at 4/29/2013 5:26:14 PM EST]
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 4:18:54 PM

"And bankrupt cities in a state with some of the highest taxes...you can have it!"


LOL, ok. You drive a hard Bargain...but I'll take it. *wink*
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 4:12:01 PM

"So I'll take California with its slow growth (and now recovery), safety regulations and all around nice weather over Texas ANY day."

And bankrupt cities in a state with some of the highest taxes...you can have it!
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 4:04:29 PM

Jay ----- California would be a really great place to live if it weren't for all the liberals that inhabit the place.
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jayrad1957
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 3:46:07 PM

"So I'll take California with its slow growth (and now recovery), safety regulations and all around nice weather over Texas ANY day."

I second that!
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 3:17:08 PM

"Norm, what does the bail out and have to do with the fertilizer plant blowing up? "


Perry was against bailouts but behind closed doors asked for all of that money. He was also intimating that Texas could leave the union, but yet is right there with his handout when disaster hits home.






"You are just looking for any reason to criticize this guy because he is a Republican. "

No, he's said stupid things and now all that he says slaps him in the face. Seems you are looking to defend him at all costs because he's a republican.








"Face it, you all need a governor like him in California to get some growth going. He has done very well in Texas with jobs and economic growth in a tough time."

No thanks. I've seen the low paying jobs that Perry promotes as "growth". And I seriously doubt I could live as well as I do in Texas as I do here. So I'll take California with its slow growth (and now recovery), safety regulations and all around nice weather over Texas ANY day.

And oh, half my family is from Texas, and I've lived there, so I DO know what I'm talking about.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 2:23:46 PM

Norm, what does the bail out and have to do with the fertilizer plant blowing up? You are just looking for any reason to criticize this guy because he is a Republican. Face it, you all need a governor like him in California to get some growth going. He has done very well in Texas with jobs and economic growth in a tough time.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 2:17:01 PM

"You singled out the Governor by name."


Yeah, I did.

Because Perry is the first to criticize the federal government, but yet also the first to demand that the federal government bail Texas out.

Surely you know this, so why do you give him a free pass for his actions and policies?
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 11:26:37 AM

RNorm said: "No, just pointing out that policies have consequences. He is a "do as you please" state for business. He has stated numerous times that Texas is about deregulation. There are consequences for such policies...just like there are consequences for being overly regulatory for businesses."

--This still sounds like blaming Gov. Perry, without directly saying so. Sure, poliices have consequences. But when was this ammonia plant built? It likely wasn't built under Perry's administration. It's probably much earlier. Why aren't you blaming the whole administration? You singled out the Governor by name.

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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 10:36:50 AM

So Jay and AFSNCO when a accident happens (and it will) and a plane crashes in a residential area a half mile short of the runway will everyone squeal about the lack of regulation and greed of the airport folks?

Same principal as this fertilizer plant it seems. In the spring farmers put tons of the fertilizer on their land - you know so the city dweller types can get food and clothing. Should those same city dwellers - who may well have built their homes next to the plant now whine and demand the plant shut down?
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 29, 2013 10:19:44 AM

"Reminds me of homeowners all across this country."

We had that in Albuquerque also. They built the airport and air force base out on the east side of the city in the 1930s...people then built their homes right up to the base and airport and now complain about the noise.
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jayrad1957
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 11:53:15 PM

"Reminds me of a certain Marine airbase called El Toro. In WWII it was built and out in the middle of nowhere. Homes were built all around it and the people who bought the homes whined about the noise."

Reminds me of homeowners all across this country.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 10:45:12 PM

btc is that supposed to be some kind of cheap shot attack? Are you accusing me of being one "who believe lives of workers and nearby neighbors should not come first over profit."?

Don't be bashful - if you have something to say -- do so.

As far as the fertilizer plant and how close other buildings were - what was there first btc - do you know? If I was to make a guess I would say that the homes and apt. buildings probably were built after the plant. Did anyone force people to live there? What were the zoning laws locally? Lots of things to consider btc.

But you never did rise to try and deal with the concept of risk and what is acceptable. We have pretty good evidence that tobacco use is harmful to folks. Yet didn't you say you liked to work seasonably at producing that known carcinogen? Yet you wish to throw aspersions?????

Nobody knows yet why the explosion happened for sure - but the proggies are really fast to blame greedy conservatives - hummmmm interesting as all get out.

This whole discussion reminds me a lot of a certain solid fuel rocket propellant plant near Henderson Nevada that went boom a few years back. When they built the plant it was miles away from the nearest other structure. The plant owners told the local politicians that the plant manufactured explosives and dangerous things. Yet the people built all around the place. It went boom and lots of homes were flattened - and all the local libs tried to hang it on the plant that they didn't care and so forth. Yet this is right next door to Harry Reid's town. Did anyone blame Harry? Did anyone blame the local folks who allowed the building? Did anyone blame those who bought the places?

How about we look at some folks taking responsibilities for buying in a area that was potentially dangerous.

Reminds me of a certain Marine airbase called El Toro. In WWII it was built and out in the middle of nowhere. Homes were built all around it and the people who bought the homes whined about the noise.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 9:43:00 PM

"How does this qualify as welfare to corporations?"

It doesn't and I didn't say that. I pointed out to you the very people who say welfare to humans are bad, are the same people who say welfare to companies is good. And the people who say that are your fellow conservatives.






"I will never say that we should let houses burn down"

No, but again, there are people who are posting in THIS thread who have said that very thing.






"but it was an industrial accident."

One that most likely could have been mitigated had they complied with the regulations ALREADY in place.






"The liberal press is all over Perry over it yet they will ignore politicizing any accident that happens in state controlled by liberals."

So when Perry intimates stupid talk of succession he doesn't mean that, only liberals understand it that way??? Right.






"Perry has NEVER said he did not want any regulation...but he is for lessening reglation where it makes sense."

Does it make sense for a fertilizer plant not to be inspected for 28 years??? Really?







"It is only liberals that take his words and twist them."

You mean like conservatives do with Obama's words? Gotcha.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 8:20:28 PM

How does this qualify as welfare to corporations? I will never say that we should let houses burn down but it was an industrial accident. The liberal press is all over Perry over it yet they will ignore politicizing any accident that happens in state controlled by liberals. Perry has NEVER said he did not want any regulation...but he is for lessening reglation where it makes sense. It is only liberals that take his words and twist them. Sometimes you need to take the noose from around the necks to allow growth. Most of the time it is not OSHA that they are even referring to but often times the ridiculous environmental controls that prevent just the building of a manufacturing plant or a retail store.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 7:57:15 PM

"That, my friend is how regulations come about to start with. Otherwise they would not be there. Give it up. This is why those regs are already in place."


And that is the very crux of the matter.

The company purposely and willfully ignored and/or avoided adhering to the regulations that were ALREADY in place.

But yet, we have the "let the house burn down" crowd defending such avoidance of oversight by the company.

You know, its the same people who say welfare for humans is bad, evil; but yet welfare to corporations is a good thing, almost necessary!

SMH
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btc1
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 7:50:29 PM

From an anonymous poster, "AFSNCO - you are a voice crying in the wilderness. Yes accidents happen, yes we should try to find out why it happened and what could be done to prevent it from happening in the future. Then we use the best knowledge we have and balance it with reality and move on."

That, my friend is how regulations come about to start with. Otherwise they would not be there. Give it up. This is why those regs are already in place. Unless you are one of those who believe lives of workers and nearby neighbors should not come first over profit.

[Edited by: btc1 at 4/28/2013 7:53:05 PM EST]
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 7:34:34 PM

"RNorm, do I need to point out things that have happened in states with Democrats as governor that should have been regulated and these are the people pushing for more regulation? Come on...politicizing this is pretty damn low. "


Not politicizing it in the least.

But I DO think when people say we have a hands off approach to regulation, there should be consequences, no? I mean on these forums, I have seen some of the people posting in this thread justify people's houses being burned to the ground because those people didn't pay a $75 annual fee....and now these same people are saying basically that its ok that this company avoided regulatory obligations (and paid 'slap on the wrist' fees) for almost 30 years??

C'mon bro, that double standard is pretty low.

[Edited by: RNorm at 4/28/2013 7:36:05 PM EST]
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 7:18:55 PM

RNorm, do I need to point out things that have happened in states with Democrats as governor that should have been regulated and these are the people pushing for more regulation? Come on...politicizing this is pretty damn low.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 7:09:17 PM

" This is like many other things we have discussed on these boards...we can add all the regulations we want but if we do not have the resources to enforce them what good are they?"


As has been pointed out, isn't texas responsible for enforcing the federal OSHA laws? Don't texans go around talking about "Don't Mess with Texas" Shouldn't Texas be responsible for the consequences of its Laissez-faire posture towards business regulations?

Sure accidents happen, but that shouldn't mean people get free passes when they intentionally avoid regulatory obligations in a state that has a well known hands off approach to enforcing said regulations either.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 6:58:48 PM

"Were they pushing no or fewer regulations like Perry was? I'm not sure about Ann Richards, but I do know that Bush too was a deregulation type of governor."

Some things do need to be deregulated...others do not. This was covered by regulations that were not adhered to. This is like many other things we have discussed on these boards...we can add all the regulations we want but if we do not have the resources to enforce them what good are they?
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 6:40:25 PM

AFSNCO - you are a voice crying in the wilderness. Yes accidents happen, yes we should try to find out why it happened and what could be done to prevent it from happening in the future. Then we use the best knowledge we have and balance it with reality and move on.

One sure way to prevent this from ever happening again is to ban any chemical that might be hazardous. That for sure would work - but I don't think we wish to deal with the effects.

Every day most of us get in a moving bomb and think nothing about it. Yet that vehicle filled up with gas kills tens of thousands and injures hundreds of thousands each year. But we still use them don't we.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 6:02:45 PM

"And again, before we fix blame and say lack of regulations or payoffs were the cause, let's determine what the real cause actually is, rather than speculate."

There is no speculation that the owners of the plant purposely avoided adhering to their regulatory obligations. There is no speculation that fire sprinklers, blast walls, and other safety measures that should have been in that plant were not.





"And again, I think you're still now indirectly blaming Gov. Perry."

No, just pointing out that policies have consequences. He is a "do as you please" state for business. He has stated numerous times that Texas is about deregulation. There are consequences for such policies...just like there are consequences for being overly regulatory for businesses.







"What about all the other governors of TX before him, both Rep and Dem who were in the office from the time the factory was first built?"

Were they pushing no or fewer regulations like Perry was? I'm not sure about Ann Richards, but I do know that Bush too was a deregulation type of governor.






"Hmm?? I still say the Sacramento Bee was WAY over the edge in writing and publishing this cartoon."

I respectfully disagree.






"And I still think the reason why relates to "sour grapes" for losing jobs to Texas."

Maybe you should look at some of the other editorial cartoons; they may have biting sarcasm, but I seriously doubt the motivation behind them is "sour grapes"...sometimes they just send a powerful message that people otherwise would not receive.







"And that cartoon let's say "STRONGLY IMPLIES" that Perry is personally responsible for that plant accident. He isn't, period."

But yet, conservatives use the same reasoning to blame Obama for stock market drops, fuel prices and pretty much anything else conservatives have a problem with.

You can't have it both ways bro.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 5:37:13 PM

I will just put it this way. Accidents are accidents. They happen all the time. Sometimes they are because of negligence and at other times it is just bad timing. You do not try to politicize accidents. You learn from them and move on...
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btc1
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 3:17:27 PM

AC, "Well, again, RNorm. I think that we cannot and should not be too hasty on the cause of the plant disaster. Already you're jumping ahead to say that the root cause is Mr. Perry. Not a good assertion, my friend. If these plant owners were willfully in violation of the law, then let the law handle it."

Don't you think the law should have ALREADY handled it with the regulations in hand?!! Regulations that were not applied equally at that plant as they are at others? These are Federal regulations, not just state, as the State of Texas opted to take primacy for the Federal regulations, which only means they had to enforce the Federal regulations themselves, not weaken them. They could only strengthened them. With primacy by the state comes a minimum enforcement of the Federal regs. That is how that works. Or is supposed, too!

Annual inspections, AC, are where the new regulations are provided and the plant would be given time to update.

[Edited by: btc1 at 4/28/2013 3:19:58 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 28, 2013 12:44:29 PM

Well, my friend, I don't have sprinklers. However, if I ever do a copper repipe through the roof, maybe I'll have a run put in for this purpose in parallel with the "cold line". I have an older home with copper "in slab".

But was this factory required to have sprinklers when it was built? If not, was a retrofit required? And would it have made a difference if this ends up being a vapor explosion of NH3 or even H2? Likely not at all. Now, could it have prevented a fire? Maybe, but do they work with flammable solids for which sprinklers would help? There are a lot of questions to ask before we start armchair quarterbacking. After all, you don't necessarily use sprinklers when the fire that is expected is electrical or oil-baesd (class C and B respectively). Water would only make it worse.

And again, before we fix blame and say lack of regulations or payoffs were the cause, let's determine what the real cause actually is, rather than speculate. And again, I think you're still now indirectly blaming Gov. Perry. What about all the other governors of TX before him, both Rep and Dem who were in the office from the time the factory was first built? Hmm?? I still say the Sacramento Bee was WAY over the edge in writing and publishing this cartoon. And I still think the reason why relates to "sour grapes" for losing jobs to Texas. And that cartoon let's say "STRONGLY IMPLIES" that Perry is personally responsible for that plant accident. He isn't, period.
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