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Author Topic: The Greedy And Powerful Are The Real Takers In This Country Back to Topics
SemiSteve

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 5:54:38 PM

Greed and power are a bad combination for society. Individuals who possess these two traits often head large corporations which prey on the unsuspecting public. Workers, customers, suppliers are all considered fodder for their arsenal of weapons of mass wealth extraction. This arsenal includes taking advantage of the less fortunate, strong-arming tactics, government manipulation and PR propaganda machines.

-Workers often have no other viable choice but to toil tirelessly for dirt wages. Employers purposely locate in areas of high unemployment for the purpose of preying on the desperate.

-Customers are subjected to a bevy of creative and/or deceptive tricks meant to seperate them from their money in return for products that are purposely designed to wear out quicker, do less, contain less product, appear to be more than they actually are, fail under normal use, be replaced quicker, require more expensive extras, can't be repaired, etc.

-Many large corporations force customers, suppliers and workers to sign away their right of legal recourse by dictating corporate-hired arbitration firms which almost always find for the corporations in disputes. Many of these take-it-or-leave-it contracts also contain clauses which take advantage of the misfortunes of the individual in a blatant money-grab should this occur, or that occur, etc.

-Governments are abused just like any other entity. The larger a corporation is, the more likely it is to demand concessions such as tax breaks and even tax-payer provided support infrastructure. Underpaid employees are regularly so poverty stricken that they qualify for government assistance; which really means that the taxpayers are actually picking up the tab for taking care of the workers of extremely profitable large corporations, as executives roll in the lap of luxury.

-Office holders are double-teamed with hand-outs on one hand and demands on the other. Public officials are regularly threatened with negative PR and withholding vital campaign cash if they do not comply. If corporations want to do something underhanded but it is illegal, don't stop there! Just change the law to suit themselves.

--All the while, their PR machines are busy painting the picture that these economic bullies are 'selflessly serving the public' and providing all things good out of the generosity of their hearts. As if corporations HAVE hearts.

Basically, anything the greedy and powerful can think of to extract more wealth from communities they will do (without remorse). With governments heavily in debt trying to mitigate the wreckage in the wake of these Goliaths; and rampant unemployment, the economy is on the ropes. But that is of zero concern to the greedy and powerful. They have so much money they don't care how well the economy is doing.

[Edited by: SemiSteve at 3/22/2013 5:57:43 PM EST]
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2013 3:41:53 PM

gocatgo: ""Greed and power" is a bad combination. But may I add so is taking advantage of the generosity of the system. And yes those people are out there from all walks of life. A good example would be those faking job injuries that get workman's compensation benefits. "

--True. But when some lazy bum defrauds the system it the impact is small (not that the cumulative effect of many is); but when a really greedy person acquires and uses power for his own gain the impact can frequently be felt by many.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2013 11:08:18 AM

"It turns out that compared to the equivalent set of parent-offspring pairs in Scandinavian countries, sons whose Fathers are in the bottom 20% are much less upwardly mobile in the US. "

Source
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2013 10:56:59 AM

SemiSteve said: "No; you don't get it. Here is what happens. When a name-brand drug patent is due to expire other companies develop generics to sell. The patent-holder approaches the generic companies and offers them cash to delay introduction of the generic drug. This way, the patent-holder can still keep charging the monopoly rate for their drug because they 'bought off' the competition. The generic companies begin to pocket some of the profits from the name-brand patented drug sales."

AC-302: "Uhh.. I wouldn't think so. Do you have proof of this, or is this something you read out of Mother Jones News? Do you have a source?"

--LA Times Article on the case
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gocatgo
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Apr 7, 2013 11:17:59 AM

"Greed and power" is a bad combination. But may I add so is taking advantage of the generosity of the system. And yes those people are out there from all walks of life. A good example would be those faking job injuries that get workman's compensation benefits.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 7, 2013 11:06:17 AM

SemiSteve - did you read that "better upward mobility" tripe in Mother Jones News? Where did you get it? Your source, please? Or is this something you are guessing at (and there's no shame in that, btw)?
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2013 3:07:29 PM

Steve I think you sadly in error concerning the upward mobility thing.

I know of more than one person who started with next to nothing and in their older age are very comfortably situated.

In my opinion you just don't know what your talking about here.
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2013 2:46:27 PM

AC: "Upward mobility in Europe is far worse than it is here in the States."


There is virtually no upward mobility in Europe. The people who are already wealthy know how the play the system and hide their wealth from the ruinous taxation, and since the very wealthy are the ones who by and large run governments in Europe it's not too hard for them to make sure that their wealth is safe and that it's extremely difficult for any newcomers to join the exclusive club of old money. What it does do, and you alluded to it, is prevent someone from amassing any wealth in the first place. Virtually the only newly wealthy people you see in Europe are the occasional rock or movie stars. You don't see people in Europe starting their own businesses, growing them, and becoming wealthy from that hard work. The regulations and taxes make that practically impossible.

This is what's in store for us. What it means is that those with bright ideas, some of which could change the world just like the ideas of the tech entrepreneurs of the last 30 years did (most of whom starting with little or nothing), will go someplace else to develop those ideas and turn them into reality. Europe's present is our not too distant future.

mudtoe

[Edited by: mudtoe at 4/6/2013 2:52:10 PM EST]
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noseatbelt
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2013 2:39:31 PM

Steve, you really need to keep up with what's going on in europe, as bad as it is here, it is much worse over there. What people like me worry about, is that we are headed down the same path, spending more then we have, and still promising to spend more. It doesn't work.
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nstrdnvstr
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2013 2:34:42 PM

SemiSteve, "
It also draws scrutiny to the conservative myth that America is the land of opportunity where hard work pays off and makes people rich. Most people work very hard and never rise above middle class or even poverty. There are impoverished people who work multiple jobs for years with nothing to show for working their lives away. No savings, no benefits, no retirement, no health care, no life."

Wrong. If people live below their means and commit to saving part of their income, they can amass a lot of money and become rich.

"The greedy and powerful are the ones who stack the deck against any others desirous of joining them. They purposely make it difficult for others to get rich, which would dilute the power of their vast holdings. It is sick vindictive greed."

Wrong again. There is no "greedy conspiracy" to keep people poor. The bigger "conspiracy" is the government wants to keep people poor, dependent on them in order to get votes. Look at the big increase in food stamp use! Those people don't vote republican!

[Edited by: nstrdnvstr at 4/6/2013 2:37:39 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2013 1:23:15 PM

SemiSteve said: "No; you don't get it. Here is what happens. When a name-brand drug patent is due to expire other companies develop generics to sell. The patent-holder approaches the generic companies and offers them cash to delay introduction of the generic drug. This way, the patent-holder can still keep charging the monopoly rate for their drug because they 'bought off' the competition. The generic companies begin to pocket some of the profits from the name-brand patented drug sales."

--Uhh.. I wouldn't think so. Do you have proof of this, or is this something you read out of Mother Jones News? Do you have a source? I would think the FTC would look upon this as anti-competitive behavior and punish the living daylights out of the drug company that would do this. Now, in the EU, they have different laws. In the EU, companies can, at least to a degree, collude and divide up markets and customers. In the US, we cannot do this, as it's considered "collusion" and anti-competitive behavior. It would and rightly should draw big fines.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2013 1:19:46 PM

SemiSteve said: "-That simple concept is why the USA has less upward mobility than most industrialized nations. We have turned Wall Street into Las Vegas. The deck is stacked against small investors."

--Uhhh...I think not, my friend. Upward mobility in Europe is far worse than it is here in the States. Overly restrictive laws are one problem over there. A very high and burdensome personal tax rate is another big problem. And they need that to support their social welfare bureaucracies. And if upward mobility is so great in the industrialized nations of the EU, why do they need to support policies of wealth redistribution? I can tell you all kinds of stories about Europe - having family that still live there. Cool place, but not a great place to start a business. California might be worse, however. I do recall your story about Italy - collect your unemployment and go in with 9 other guys to start a small business. Interesting idea.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Apr 6, 2013 8:56:46 AM

AC-302: "it takes money to make money. "

--That simple concept is why the USA has less upward mobility than most industrialized nations. We have turned Wall Street into Las Vegas. The deck is stacked against small investors.

It also draws scrutiny to the conservative myth that America is the land of opportunity where hard work pays off and makes people rich. Most people work very hard and never rise above middle class or even poverty. There are impoverished people who work multiple jobs for years with nothing to show for working their lives away. No savings, no benefits, no retirement, no health care, no life.

Wealth is the result of working hard at something that pays well.
Poverty is the result of working hard at something that pays poorly.

The greedy and powerful are the ones who stack the deck against any others desirous of joining them. They purposely make it difficult for others to get rich, which would dilute the power of their vast holdings. It is sick vindictive greed.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 11:04:07 PM

Topic: The Greedy And Powerful Are The Real Takers In This Country

--Well, it takes money to make money. If you don't have much money, then even a good investment, even at 200% doesn't return as much as even a 1% investment if you have a billion bucks in the market.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 10:45:28 PM

No; you don't get it. Here is what happens. When a name-brand drug patent is due to expire other companies develop generics to sell. The patent-holder approaches the generic companies and offers them cash to delay introduction of the generic drug. This way, the patent-holder can still keep charging the monopoly rate for their drug because they 'bought off' the competition. The generic companies begin to pocket some of the profits from the name-brand patented drug sales.

All the drug companies involved make great profits; but the patients who need the drugs are stuck with the high prices because there is still no generic available.

This is nothing but pure greed. It is not being done to 'better serve the market'. It is being done to bleed more money out of the consumers. In this case the consumers are patients who need the drug. They have no choice but to pay whatever the cost is. The companies collaborate to render patent law useless to consumers.

That is why the case has been brought to the SCOTUS.
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1OILMAN
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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 5:21:33 PM

Do you not have a job? Or a life? Geeeeezzzzzz
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nstrdnvstr
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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 3:34:42 PM

MiddletownMarty said "There are no generic versions available for drugs whose patents have not expired."

This is true.

sgm4law replied ""There are no generic versions available for drugs whose patents have not expired."

And that is why Big Pharma is always trying to have patent law "improved" for their own benefit."

OK, but these "Big Pharma" companies give billions of dollars of drugs away to the poor. Each has their own program where people that cannot afford their medicines get either reduced price or free medications.
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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2013 10:28:01 AM

"There are no generic versions available for drugs whose patents have not expired."

And that is why Big Pharma is always trying to have patent law "improved" for their own benefit.
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MiddletownMarty
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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 10:21:27 AM

There are no generic versions available for drugs whose patents have not expired.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Apr 2, 2013 10:17:23 AM

" The only way it counts is if it's taken from them and they end up poor just like the rest of us!!"

--Nobody on the left ever said that. The difference between your view and reality is greater than the distance across the Grand Canyon.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 7:45:33 PM

SemiSteve: "Medications. Now there's a great example of a business with no competition; where the customers are FORCED to do business with a certain corporation.

"Oh", say the conservatives, "But you can always choose not to do business with them."

Yeah, and DIE."

nstrdnvstr: "Are you serious?"

--Absolutely.

"Then, in the same post, you admit there are generics (not to mention drugs from other companies that treat the same illness). So there is a choice of getting a drug from company A, company B, or a generic version!

See! You don't have to die, you just have to use a different brand!
Sort of like if you think the price of Coke is too high at the store, you can buy Pepsi (if it is cheaper) instead!"

--Yeah; there is so much competition that people in other nations are clamoring to get drugs at the prices we pay. -rolling eyes-
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 7:42:19 PM

Bell30012: "No one forces people to work for these corporations. Corporations are smart to build or expand in areas with high unemployment. It gives them a larger pool of applicants for jobs to choose from."

--And they can cut their 'labor costs' by paying insulting wages which force the workers to go on government assistance, thereby shoving their obligations to their workers off onto we the taxpayers. Yes, how ingenious.

"I always notice those that do not have money feel that those who do have it are evil."

--I wonder why. And btw, your perception is inaccurate. SOME people simply have respect for others, no matter the situation.

"Never mind the fact that most of those that are at the top are extremely hard workers. Some people will only put forward a minimal effort. They remain at the bottom as minimum wage earners. Then there are those that work far in excess of the job requirements. Those that work 70-80+ hours per week even though they are on a salary."

--Ahhh, the old Conservative Myth that the richest are the 'best and the brightest' and the 'hardest workers'. Baloney. Try telling that to a migrant farm worker who spends long hours picking crops. Or tell that to a parent who works several jobs, way more than 40 hours with no benefits, to provide a nice life and possibly college, for their kids.

"People consider this latter class as the evil, greedy, rich. Quit spending all your time trying to bring down the greedy and spend as much effort trying to elevate yourself to their level."

--No thanks. I don't want to be greedy. People are too beautiful to hate and mistreat. I love myself too much for that. Don't you love yourself? You want to be greedy and powerful? I feel sorry for those who are.

The greedy and powerful don't love people. They only love money.

Don't you get it? Love is all you need (just like the Beatles song!) You find that love in yourself and everything else falls into place. You put out good vibes and you get good vibes back. You find your place in the world. You find work, you get money, you are happy.

Money can't buy happiness. If you can't find it without money you never will.

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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 7:09:46 PM

nst, I know you don't get where I'm coming from and you never will. But for the benefit of others I will explain why.

You keep harping about me wanting to 'give away other people's money'; but the thing you constantly leave out is that it is my money too. Or it was up until I paid my taxes. I have a right to my say in what my government spends it's money on.

I have no access to other people's money. Their money is theirs to do with as they please.

I have representation in my government and I have a miniscule say in what my government spends IT'S money on. And let's make this clear. After people pay their taxes the money is no longer theirs. It belongs to the government.

I have every right to inject my view on what my government does with IT'S money.

You are only fooling yourself when you call it 'other people's money'.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 7:02:46 PM

SS: "Because they can't let go of their own dream to join them some day."

LTVibe: "You mean like the poster who said this:

"...it is fun to think once in a while that maybe, just maybe, I might become fabulously rich"

;-)"

--Good one, LTVibe!

That poster was, of course, me; when I penned a topic called:

"Do You Pay The Stupid Tax?"

Wondering who buys lotto tix.

But no, there is a difference. That difference is that I CAN let go of that dream. I am not obsessed with it. I do it for fun. Much like YDraig put it in that topic: "If you buy a lottery ticket, treat it like a movie ticket. You pay $10 today for three hours of fantasy."

Of course the part you left off is this from that OP:

"Betting a dollar on something that is practically a certain loser is stupid if you do it very much. Because you probably won't win. But one thing is certain. You will never win if you don't buy a ticket!"

The thing is; some can dabble with the dream and then let go of it just as easily. That's my approach when I buy a lotto ticket. It's not a habit. It is something I do when I get a wild hair up my rear.

Those who go and blow much of their meager budget on lotto tix? Stupid. The only thing that seperates them from the greedy and powerful is that they have not figured out a way to get super-rich. The greedy and powerful have; or were born into it and used that advantage to increase their holdings.
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nstrdnvstr
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 7:55:20 AM

SemiSteve, "Medications. Now there's a great example of a business with no competition; where the customers are FORCED to do business with a certain corporation.

"Oh", say the conservatives, "But you can always choose not to do business with them."

Yeah, and DIE."

Are you serious?

Then, in the same post, you admit there are generics (not to mention drugs from other companies that treat the same illness). So there is a choice of getting a drug from company A, company B, or a generic version!

See! You don't have to die, you just have to use a different brand!
Sort of like if you think the price of Coke is too high at the store, you can buy Pepsi (if it is cheaper) instead!
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nstrdnvstr
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 7:48:33 AM

SemiSteve, "Oh, here we go.

An example is given of rich people who are generous.

And this somehow exonerates all the ones who are not?"

As opposed to those like you that want to give away other peoples money to the government, simply because they have "more than they need"?

It is NOT considered generous when one calls for giving someone else's money away, in fact that is called greed.
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Bell30012
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 6:38:30 AM

No one forces people to work for these corporations. Corporations are smart to build or expand in areas with high unemployment. It gives them a larger pool of applicants for jobs to choose from.

I always notice those that do not have money feel that those who do have it are evil. Never mind the fact that most of those that are at the top are extremely hard workers. Some people will only put forward a minimal effort. They remain at the bottom as minimum wage earners. Then there are those that work far in excess of the job requirements. Those that work 70-80+ hours per week even though they are on a salary.

People consider this latter class as the evil, greedy, rich. Quit spending all your time trying to bring down the greedy and spend as much effort trying to elevate yourself to their level.
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LTVibe
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2013 6:15:49 AM

SS: "Because they can't let go of their own dream to join them some day."

You mean like the poster who said this:

"...it is fun to think once in a while that maybe, just maybe, I might become fabulously rich"

;-)



[Edited by: LTVibe at 3/27/2013 6:17:50 AM EST]
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 10:18:47 PM

Oh, here we go.

An example is given of rich people who are generous.

And this somehow exonerates all the ones who are not?

Only in the eyes of those who give all the rich, both the ones with a heart and the ones without, a free pass.

And why would some give all the rich a free pass?

Because they can't let go of their own dream to join them some day.

And if they give the worst of them a free pass we know what kind of rich person they aspire to be.

Greedy and Powerful.

All they lack is the big bux that gives them the license (in their view) to treat people like dirt.

Good thing.

[Edited by: SemiSteve at 3/26/2013 10:21:56 PM EST]
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 4:22:36 PM

LTV: "The rich and powerful, but not-so-greedy..."


<Liberal Rant ON>

Yea, but uh...uh....uh....they are still rich and this was peanuts to them, the greedy bastards! It's not fair if they give money, it has to be taken from them kicking and screaming, yea, yea!! The only way it counts is if it's taken from them and they end up poor just like the rest of us!! Yea! Yea! They are just trying to buy some good publicity, and we aren't going to give it to them No sir!! This didn't change anything. We are still going to get them, watch and see!

<Liberal Rant Off>


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LTVibe
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 1:04:56 PM

The rich and powerful, but not-so-greedy...

One Percenters save Detroit

Monday morning, Mayor Bing stood shoulder-to-shoulder with One Percenter Roger Penske to announce an extraordinary $8 million donation from Detroit’s WEALTHY CORPORATE CITIZENS for the leasing of 23 new EMS vehicles and 100 police cruisers. “A separate $6 million has also been committed for recreation programming in the city, with $5 million from Lear Corp. and $1 million from DTE Energy Co.,” reported The Detroit News.

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e_jeepin
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2013 12:58:31 PM

"Greed and power are a bad combination for society. Individuals who possess these two traits often head large corporations which prey on the unsuspecting public."

The unsuspecting public:

"wait, so I can't opt out of Obamacare?"
"wait, so my premiums will double?"
"wait, so my medical records will be published on a government database?"
"wait, so a politician can call a Doctor buddy to gain access?

SS, greed and power is right in front of your nose and you can't even see it.

[Edited by: e_jeepin at 3/26/2013 1:01:52 PM EST]
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noseatbelt
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 6:38:18 PM

the only price steve would think is fair, is free.
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EZExit
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 6:36:02 PM

Mudtoe gets it. Steve, well, not so much :)
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 6:22:35 PM

SS: "--And for many products there is no other choice."


Then do without or make it yourself. I know of no product, except those under patents (discussed in my previous post), for which there is no alternative or substitute offered by someone else.


mudtoe
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 6:19:45 PM

SS: "Yeah, and DIE."


So basically because they have something you want, and they won't just give it to you for a price you think is fair, you have a right to take it. Is there anything I'm missing here?

Oh, and what underlies all this are the patent laws and how medical liability laws work, both made and enforced by guess who: government! So if you are angry with how the drug industry works, best have a look at how patent law works and how medical liability lawsuits work, because everything you see and don't like about the drug industry has its roots right there in one of those two government controlled processes.


mudtoe
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 6:17:56 PM

" They can't force you into accepting their fine print, that decision is 100% your own when you choose of your own free will to do business with them."

--And for many products there is no other choice. The only choices are offered by big greedy powerful corporations and all of them have the same fine print. It is a cabal of greed. Good luck finding ANY alternatives for many products which do not force you to sign away your rights, among many other legal constraints...

Their 'take-it-or-leave-it' attitude smacks of the strong-arm protection racket.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 6:12:02 PM

Medications. Now there's a great example of a business with no competition; where the customers are FORCED to do business with a certain corporation.

"Oh", say the conservatives, "But you can always choose not to do business with them."

Yeah, and DIE.

Talk about Greedy And Powerful. Big Pharma is total case in point. Case going before the SCOTUS: Should Big Pharma be able to pay competition in order to NOT offer cheaper generics? Essentially splitting the RIP-OFF of name-brands. Sort of a honor among thieves kind of a thing.

Big greedy corporations treat the public like so much dirt. If corporations are people then those 'people' have no hearts. To price life-saving drugs beyond the reach of many is to let them die. And the execs of those corporations are rolling in money. They should be ashamed of themselves. Jonas Salk would rise from the grave and vomit to see what they do. (if you don't know who he was, he invented the Polio vaccine and sought no patent nor any exorbitant profits from it - only wanted to be paid his regular wage for his work and to help people. Imagine!)
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EZExit
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 5:46:19 PM

Steve: <<<" Take hospitals, for instance. One of the most profitable industries in the land.">>>

**********

It is apparent that you have no concept of hospitals and finance.

Medications... we have a motto, "Today's medications are tomorrows litigations". The FDA mandates for testing of new procedures, tests, or medications is just unfathomable. Typically, the process from initial application, through test studies, and review is 5-7 years. This doesn't even take into account the development costs or time, and sometimes, it won't ever get approved after all of this investment, due to successful lobbies by competitors. Then you have malpractice insurance, on the order of $550,000 a year per physician, in addition to the blanket coverage for a hospital facility and all of their employees. You have JCAHO standards, which change almost daily, and when they change, large amounts of money have to be invested to accommodate. Then there is ObamaCare© mandating all records transcribed to a central government operated data exchange. Then there is Medicare, which regulates expenses, often less than cost, and always full of unnecessary requirements, as it was written by people with no medical knowledge. Lastly, there is the people with no money or health insurance, which we must treat, (and would do anyway) by law, and by Hippocratic oath, for which we are never reimbursed.

This is on top of normal overhead such as equipment, the building, etc.

Sorry, but it makes my blood boil when uninformed people chat "talking points" when they really have no clue. The government is directly as well as indirectly responsible for exacerbated health costs, and then in true Mr. Haney form, also are supposed to be the solution. ROFL!



[Edited by: EZExit at 3/25/2013 5:50:44 PM EST]
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 5:03:47 PM

SS: " Take hospitals, for instance. One of the most profitable industries in the land."


Hospitals are some of the most heavily regulated businesses in the land, and will be even more so starting next year. Besides, if you don't want to do business with a hospital, you don't have to. If you think you can treat your own illnesses, or deliver your own babies, then you are free to do so.

I have no doubt as time goes on there will be more and more private hospitals setup to cater to cash customers thanks to Obamacare, and they will be governed by market forces. Price, services, and everything else will be negotiable, just as it should be.

mudtoe
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 4:51:26 PM

SS: "Who is your Senator or Representative within a corporation? Who in the corporation has to serve the people well or face a poor record during scheduled elections?"


Uh, if you want a say in a corporation's decision making process, buy some stock. If you don't like the fine print, or the arbitration clauses, don't do business with them in the first place. They can't force you into accepting their fine print, that decision is 100% your own when you choose of your own free will to do business with them. Unfortunately, you can't choose whether or not to do business with government. It's that simple.


mudtoe



[Edited by: mudtoe at 3/25/2013 4:53:53 PM EST]
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nstrdnvstr
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 4:38:28 PM

SemiSteve, "Sorry to burst that bubble but there are plenty of corporations which have complete control over the market, essentially facing no competition at all. Take hospitals, for instance. One of the most profitable industries in the land...."

False! HCA's net profit margin is just 4.86%. LifePoint Hospital's net profit margin is 4.48%!
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 3:36:34 PM

SS: "Isn't it noteworthy how the conservatives here are so quick to blame and demean those on the government end of this cycle; but have only good things to say about those on the corporate/private side of this?"

mudtoe: "I don't recall saying anything of the sort. I actually agree with you that a lot of people at the top of the corporate hierarchy are mean selfish bastards."

--Wow. You surprise me.

However, what you never acknowledge or will ever speak to is that the same is true about those in charge of government."

--Surprise! I agree. And they come from both sides of the isle.

"Since we have the same type of people running both government and corporations, it begs the question of which venue has more opportunity to take advantage of people, a corporation that can't force you to do business with them but has to entice you to do so, or a government that can order you to do stuff and take your money, property, and freedom at the point of a gun?"

--What happened to the 'mean selfish bastards' opinion' Now you make them sound so angelic. Sorry to burst that bubble but there are plenty of corporations which have complete control over the market, essentially facing no competition at all. Take hospitals, for instance. One of the most profitable industries in the land. Are we customers able to shop and compare? Hardly. If you need their services you don't have time to shop and compare. Not that you would really be able to do so very well, anyway. How about health insurance? Anybody who gets it through their job has no say in who they go with. Take it or leave it. Ditto with power and utilities. Need a part for something you already own? Mostly you have to deal with the manufacturer. You're forced to do business with them whether you like it or not at that point.

And if you don't like it you have little recourse. You frequently can't even resolve your dispute by court of law. Many corporations have slick lawyers who write long fine print contracts you must agree to from the get-go which force you to sign away your rights. "Disputes will be resolved by arbitration." That just means they hired their own private judge who gets paid to side with them 99% of the time.

With the US govt, we have representation. Who is your Senator or Representative within a corporation? Who in the corporation has to serve the people well or face a poor record during scheduled elections? With government you have redress. With corporations it is take it or leave it.

Despite your innate fear of government and it's power you should understand that government's power is derived from we the people. If our government tried to turn on us we have the power to reshape, remold or even abolish our government. Our government is something we created. While it is healthy to keep a wary eye open to the activities of government the wise understand that our government answers to us, not the other way around.

And you think we have no choice in the matter. Baloney.

Anybody who doesn't like being a US citizen has the option of renouncing their citizenship and moving somewhere else. If they think they can find a better situation...
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noseatbelt
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 3:34:51 PM

could our esteemed conservatives gbs be mistaken? might be, might not be. how about you steve, could you be mistaken, with your anti wealth rants? I am a lot more worried about the greed, and power in our government, isn't that combination also bad for society?

Worry, I don't support the wealthy, and powerful, any more then I do anyone else, but I would hate to see what shape this country would be with out them, I certainly don't begrudge their wealth, like many here seem to do.
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1OILMAN
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 3:17:32 PM

Why is it "greedy" to extract through commerce as much as you can? Isn't that the point of being in business or in the labor force?
Is it not the same as extracting the best grade possible by studying?
Some have it and some don't. May not be "fair" but nothing is. A 5'4" 125 lb man is not going to make in the NFL or NBA. Just the way it is, get over it.
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 12:52:19 PM

SS: "Isn't it noteworthy how the conservatives here are so quick to blame and demean those on the government end of this cycle; but have only good things to say about those on the corporate/private side of this?"


I don't recall saying anything of the sort. I actually agree with you that a lot of people at the top of the corporate hierarchy are mean selfish bastards. However, what you never acknowledge or will ever speak to is that the same is true about those in charge of government. Since we have the same type of people running both government and corporations, it begs the question of which venue has more opportunity to take advantage of people, a corporation that can't force you to do business with them but has to entice you to do so, or a government that can order you to do stuff and take your money, property, and freedom at the point of a gun?

mudtoe



[Edited by: mudtoe at 3/25/2013 12:55:36 PM EST]
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2013 11:55:02 AM

First of all, kudos to all who have posted so far in this topic. I think a record has been set for not turning a new topic into another Obama-bashing melee!

And now back to topic;

Isn't it noteworthy how the conservatives here are so quick to blame and demean those on the government end of this cycle; but have only good things to say about those on the corporate/private side of this?

Why, to take what they say as rock-solid one would expect that all/most of the richest people in this country got that way as a result of being elected or appointed government officials.

But that is the exact opposite of what we actually find.

How can this be?

Could our esteemed conservative GBs be mistaken?

[Edited by: SemiSteve at 3/25/2013 11:56:59 AM EST]
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worryfree
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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 1:56:21 PM

And those that can only dream of being wealthy and powerful come out in support of the wealthy and powerful...
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AC-302
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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 1:47:51 PM

Again, if I buy a product from a company, and it doesn't work, I can make them take it back. If not, I can raise a stink on line about them, or go to their competitors to buy competing products.

Now, if the government screws me, that's worse. If Obama does something I don't like today, I still have to suffer his continuing incompetence for another 3.5 years! I can't go elsewhere for better government. For my representatives, I only have the chance to cast my VETO every 2 years. For my senator, every 6 years. For my mayor - 4 years.

That is very different from business. Businesses make money by providing good products and services. There are VERY few monopolies around anymore. The only ones I can think of at this point are nat gas, electricity, water, sewers and garbage collection. and for the last four, I have a city service that is incredibly expensive and incredibly inefficient. And our Department of Water and Power ("DWP") pays themselves far more than other departments in the City of LaLa land. And that is also unfair for equivalent work. IMHO, the REAL fat cats aren't business, they're government.
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nstrdnvstr
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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 1:37:50 PM

SemiSteve, "-Customers are subjected to a bevy of creative and/or deceptive tricks meant to seperate them from their money in return for products that are purposely designed to wear out quicker, do less, contain less product, appear to be more than they actually are, fail under normal use, be replaced quicker, require more expensive extras, can't be repaired, etc."

Aaaahhh, the we are just victims mentality shows up again.

[Edited by: nstrdnvstr at 3/24/2013 1:38:11 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2013 11:31:25 AM

SemiSteve started his latest inflammatory thread: "Greed and power are a bad combination for society."

--I agree. And we need to get the greedy and power-hungry out of Congress immediately. Particularly those in the Democrat party, such as Reid, or anyone with the last name "Kennedy".
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noseatbelt
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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2013 3:58:35 PM

worry, I guess you didn't notice who many of obama's re election contributors were. But I suppose, since they helped your hero get re elected, that's different.

I for one am all for taking away many of the tax breaks, or going to a flat tax. but will it happen, doubtful, because to many on both sides in washington don't want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. They know, if they do contributions from the wealthy will dry up, and it will be hard to get rich as a politician.
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