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Author Topic: Detroit moves closer to bankrupcy Back to Topics
mudtoe

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Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 10:46:27 AM

Detroit's financial crisis now in governor's hands


"DETROIT (AP) — The fiscal crisis plaguing Detroit is now in the hands of Michigan's governor after a state-appointed review team determined the city was in a financial emergency with "no satisfactory plan" to resolve it."


This is what awaits all of us eventually on the path we are on. Leave liberals in charge of something long enough and this is the inevitable result.


mudtoe
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 23, 2013 8:58:03 AM

"What is your opinion of people and notations that lone the U.S. government money?"

US rating is significantly higher than Detroit's... Is the US getting close to declaring bankruptcy?

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 7/23/2013 8:59:12 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 23, 2013 8:56:52 AM

"Oh, so you're saying that the corrupt Dumbocrats like Kwame Kilpatrick, Coleman Young, William Hart and the labor unions had absolutely nothing to do with Detroit's demise?"

Nice strawman. You clearly have not read any posts below... Take your time before responding.
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jeskibuff
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 8:46:37 PM

Weaslespit said: "Yup - none have anything to do with Detroit. That was an easy one, got one a little more challenging?"

Oh, so you're saying that the corrupt Dumbocrats like Kwame Kilpatrick, Coleman Young, William Hart and the labor unions had absolutely nothing to do with Detroit's demise?

You think that just flat-out denying the charges means you successfully evaded having to admit the culpability of Dumbocrats?
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johnnyg1200
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 6:49:58 PM

WS “Why? It allowed Detroit to feed its habit and prolong the misery while digging deeper towards financial ruin. The City did not benefit - as evidence of their current predicament.”

What is your opinion of people and notations that lone the U.S. government money?

[Edited by: johnnyg1200 at 7/22/2013 6:50:56 PM EST]
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 5:16:15 PM

I75: "I see a big "Uh-oh" ahead for this shell game."


Oh yes! That's coming. It's just that the timing is more unpredictable than Detroit, because Detroit can't print money when people won't loan them anymore, while the Fed can, which can put off the day of reckoning for a while; but when the bill eventually comes due it will be so much worse, as in a loaf of bread costing $100.


mudtoe
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I75at7AM
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 3:52:54 PM

"Detroit's leadership sure did - so that they could keep playing the shell game and continue to get reelected."

I'm right with you on that point, Weasle!

On a corollary side point, should "people" still lend the USA money by buying U.S. Treasury bonds? Except that most "people", including the nations of Japan and China, have stopped buying Treasuries, and they are being sucked up by the Federal Reserve, which doesn't really have any money to back up their "purchases". I see a big "Uh-oh" ahead for this shell game.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 3:14:20 PM

"So was the GM bankruptcy, until it was hoisted (heisted) away by 0bama."

Except, as I have said, there is no indication of that happening in this instance.

"Your disdain for people who lent Detroit money is very strange."

Why? It allowed Detroit to feed its habit and prolong the misery while digging deeper towards financial ruin. The City did not benefit - as evidence of their current predicament.

"Detroit must have thought it was a good arrangement at the time."

Detroit's leadership sure did - so that they could keep playing the shell game and continue to get reelected.

"If people placed their money in bond mutual funds without knowing what types of bonds their fund was buying, that is their uneducated risk and problem."

Not many people actually look at every single line item - and even less know about the risk of each. That is the job of the financial instituion... Which is why I am still scratching my head over why any thought that this was a good buy.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 3:09:16 PM

"Am I missing anything?"

Apparently!
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I75at7AM
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 2:48:59 PM

"This case is in Bankruptcy Court, just as any other would be."

So was the GM bankruptcy, until it was hoisted (heisted) away by 0bama.

"I would give any leftover monies from the sale of assets to suppliers over bondholders."

I am sure that bondholders should be (in accordance with the law) eligible for more than "leftovers".

Your disdain for people who lent Detroit money is very strange. Yes, they agreed to lend the city money, on the promise of being paid back with interest. Detroit must have thought it was a good arrangement at the time. Unless they were just "using" such people knowing full well that the city was headed for eventual bankruptcy and a royal screwing of the bondholders.

If people placed their money in bond mutual funds without knowing what types of bonds their fund was buying, that is their uneducated risk and problem. But they still don't deserve less than the law entitles them to of Detroit's assets.

[Edited by: I75at7AM at 7/22/2013 2:50:26 PM EST]
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 2:44:37 PM

WS: " I don't have a problem selling some to cover those who are drawing a pension from the City."


Ahhh.... I see..... So it's OK for a bankruptcy judge to force the sale of Detroit's assets just so long as you agree with which of the city's creditors get the money and which don't. I get it; the law be damned and the money should go to who you think it should, and if creditors you don't like are in line to get the money, then the assets shouldn't be sold in the first place. Am I missing anything?


mudtoe
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 2:40:15 PM

"Detroit has a lot more to worry about right now then "the long run"."

The long run is all that they have to worry about. If they don't get things fixed now for the long run , there won't be a long run...

"but their time horizon is much longer."

Not sure what you mean here? Are you referring to the fact that people drawing a pension will be around for a long time?

"(instead of just making up a new law by the Administration to suit the current political climate)."

I don't see any 'interference' coming from the Adminstration (I assume you are referring to Obama). This case is in Bankruptcy Court, just as any other would be.

"Suppliers and other creditors (bondholders) should get a lot"

I would give any leftover monies from the sale of assests to suppliers over bondholders. I don't know who in ther right mind at the firms bought these bonds... Too much risk. If my financial institutions invested in such, I'd be having a serious talk with them right about now about moving my funds to a competitor.

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 7/22/2013 2:40:40 PM EST]
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I75at7AM
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 2:09:22 PM

"That won't help Detroit's image for the long run either."

Detroit has a lot more to worry about right now then "the long run".

Assets should be sold and the proceeds divided up according to existing law (instead of just making up a new law by the Administration to suit the current political climate). Suppliers and other creditors (bondholders) should get a lot, pensioners should get a lot, but their time horizon is much longer.

Any problem with that approach?



[Edited by: I75at7AM at 7/22/2013 2:11:21 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 1:51:32 PM

For those that want to sell Detroit assests, I'll tell you what. I don't have a problem selling some to cover those who are drawing a pension from the City.

I surely hope that these folks aren't just cut loose. That won't help Detroit's image for the long run either.

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 7/22/2013 1:53:01 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 20, 2013 8:34:04 PM

"See a pattern there?"

Yup - none have anything to do with Detroit. That was an easy one, got one a little more challenging?
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Jul 20, 2013 3:26:43 PM

Obama: "If I was a city, I would be Detroit." ;)
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jeskibuff
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jul 20, 2013 2:30:27 PM

Weaslespit said: "Clearly these are the folks that have never lived in Detroit and are looking for the 'political thread of the day'."

Clearly, liberals need to be force-fed the facts that liberal policies are failures. Even then (as btc1 so aptly demonstrated), they try to blame the opposition for EVERY SINGLE DISASTER caused by Dumbocrats. They did it with the financial collapse of 2008 (Bush's 2 wars, tax cuts, etc.), they did it with the dot com collapse that started in Clinton's term (Bush "talked down" the economy), and now that Detroit's misery has reached undeniable "worst American city" status, liberals like btc1 somehow want to accuse the GOP of causing it. I'm sure he and other liberals are busy trying to come up with some reason how they can shift the blame onto the GOP.
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jeskibuff
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jul 20, 2013 2:23:36 PM

Weaslespit said: "This has nothing to do with political party and everything to do with the voting constituency in the City. They 'tend' to lean towards leaders who use race baiting as an excuse"

So, you now think you can get away with talking out of both sides of your mouth?

Tell us, what party are the leaders who consistently use race-baiting "as an excuse"??

I'll give you a few hints in case you find this a difficult exercise...

Al Sharpton (D)
Jesse Jackson (D)
Obozo (D)
Biden (D)
Reid (D)
Schumer (D)
Waters (D)
Frank (D)
Meeks (D)
Pelosi (D)
Mikey Mooron (D)
.
.
etc., etc.

See a pattern there?

[Edited by: jeskibuff at 7/20/2013 2:25:03 PM EST]
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Pard
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 3:47:25 PM

You are talking out a different orifice, btc.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 2:49:17 PM

Interesting that so many people believe either party is to blame.

Clearly these are the folks that have never lived in Detroit and are looking for the 'political thread of the day'.
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 2:42:58 PM

Detroit has been under Democratic control for 50 years, but btc wants us to think Detroit is an example of what the GOP would do. YAWN
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 2:18:22 PM

"This city is a shining example of what the GOP would do to America!"

And just WHO has been running and pilfering from Detroit for decades?
Democrats.


[Edited by: theTower at 7/19/2013 2:18:54 PM EST]
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 1:18:29 PM

"This city is a shining example of what the GOP would do to America!"

BTC1, could you expound on this revelation. I'm interested in hearing more on this profound comment...
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Tru2psu2
Champion Author Winston-Salem

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 1:02:28 PM

Fools wasted it....
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 9:31:58 AM

"Simply appalling...how can people like btc1 get things so absolutely backwards when the evidence supports the exact OPPOSITE. Detroit has been under Dumbocrat control for decades and this is the result."

This has nothing to do with political party and everything to do with the voting constituency in the City. They 'tend' to lean towards leaders who use race baiting as an excuse (white suburbs keeping them down - see Mayor Young) and/or portray the image they desire (see Mayor Kilpatrick - I mean, Convict Kilpatrick). The City actually got it right for a short time under Mayor Archer but he wasn't 'black' enough and was referred to as an Uncle Tom by his critics. He declined to run for reelection in 2001.

You can also look at the totally inept City Council. Ridiculous.

This was a long time coming. Hopefully they can emerge from this and have success but I don't see a lot of change at the ground level - the actual citizens who helped empower said greedy and corrupt officials.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 9:21:34 AM

"maddog, this happened with the failure of the city to control crime and the exodus of 250,000 taxpayers looking for better wages."

Actually, Detroit has lost 1.3 million residents since it peaked at 2 million... Pretty telling what people won't put-up with.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 9:20:05 AM

"This is what happens when you let the democrats and the unions control everything."

More useless, polarizing vitriol. Greed and corruption knows no bounds...
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jeskibuff
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 7:08:51 AM

btc1 said: "This city is a shining example of what the GOP would do to America!"

Simply appalling...how can people like btc1 get things so absolutely backwards when the evidence supports the exact OPPOSITE. Detroit has been under Dumbocrat control for decades and this is the result.

Yet btc1 thinks he can blame the decay on the GOP???

Really, honestly...tell me, how can someone think they can get away with trying to shift the blame away from the truly culpable?

I'm simply amazed by the gall!

What causes the liberal mind to get things so wrong ALL THE TIME!!!???
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btc1
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 6:44:55 AM

maddog, this happened with the failure of the city to control crime and the exodus of 250,000 taxpayers looking for better wages. This city is a shining example of what the GOP would do to America!

[Edited by: btc1 at 7/19/2013 6:50:37 AM EST]
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Pard
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 6:41:17 AM

Funny how now none other than the esteemed Jimmy Hoffa is complaining to Obama about the costs of Obamacare. Just last year he was offering the union members to be Obama's Army. My, how times change. And Obama isn't going to help,
I refused to let Detroit go bankrupt.

[Edited by: Pard at 7/19/2013 6:44:32 AM EST]
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maddog57
Champion Author Winston-Salem

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 5:56:07 PM

This is what happens when you let the democrats and the unions control everything.
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 5:34:50 PM

Time to wrap up this thread and move to the new one discussing the bankruptcy proceedings themselves.


mudtoe


P.S. Mods, if you see this please lock this thread.
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johnnyg1200
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 5:12:38 PM

Well Detroit did it. They filed for Bankruptcy today.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2013 12:01:22 PM

Sounds good to me!
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2013 11:17:32 AM

Sure - we can agree to not see an issue the same way - now lets go find something else to bat around and discuss.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2013 10:03:41 AM

"Nothing you have said exonerates the city from paying its just debts."

In your opinion, and that is fine; you are welcome to it.

I simply disagree with you regarding what needs to be done to get Detroit on the road to long-term recovery. You seem to think that further draining the City of assets to appease bond holders is the first step. I do not. We can agree to disagree on this point.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 9:31:15 PM

Weasle I disagree - a city is made up of 'man'. The city of 'men' gave their word to repay what they borrowed and we are supposed to have laws that govern when anyone - including a city - don't pay their debts that they freely entered into.

Nothing you have said exonerates the city from paying its just debts. If that means that in order to do so they must sell some valuable assets and reduce services to only the absolute necessities than so be it.

What did the contract on these bonds you seem willing to welsh on say?

What does the law say regarding repayment of bonds and what assets may be used to pay if the city doesn't want to pay.
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Pard
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 8:54:50 PM

There is much more to do in Detroit than you might think, and I mean movies, theater, music, sports, art. I'm not giving up!
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 5:51:09 PM

"In my strange world I have this idea that a mans word is his bond and that honesty counts as among the recognized traits of a gentleman who most probably is cultured."

With regards to "Man" I agree. Cities are a little more complex to hold to such altruistic principles 100%, although we should do our best. Unfortunately I think Detroit is too far gone at this point so go down the 'standard' road to redemption.

On the point of culture, I was not referring to the people of the city as you implied in your definition, I was referring to 'things to do' in the City. It is much harder to attract people to a City if there is nothing to do.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 3:52:00 PM

weasle we are all entitled to our opinion. I disagree with yours.

In my strange world I have this idea that a mans word is his bond and that honesty counts as among the recognized traits of a gentleman who most probably is cultured. If a man is dishonest he cannot be cultured in my opinion. Attempts to justify not keeping your word either as a person or as a city proves beyond a reasonable doubt to me that they are uncultured. I dont care if they are temporarily in possession of items of value that should be sold to pay their legal debts.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 2:23:15 PM

"Weasle, you are SO correct about the voting habits. People reporting the news ask stuff like "Can a white be elected mayor of Detroit"' rather than asking "what is your plan for the city?". Shame."

It is a shame. I can't believe there are still people in the City that believe Kilpatrick is an innocent man... Besides crooked politicians, Detroit's biggest problem is its inhabitants (the current voting majority within city limits) IMO.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 2:13:52 PM

"True culture is demonstrated by actually keeping your word - even when its hard."

There's the heart of your strawman. Honesty does not grow a city. You are connecting two completely unrelated points to try to make another...
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 2:12:23 PM

WS: "There are always 'entities' willing to try to make a buck. "


There aren't many people though willing to try to make a buck in an obviously rigged game against them. The only ones who would be left in the game are those who think they the rigging is in their favor, as in the cronies of the people running the city. They'll take the risk because they will be selling the city screwdrivers for $100, and toilet paper for $10 a roll, while their patrons in city government look the other way. Those are the folks who will still be willing to do business with the city.


mudtoe
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Pard
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 1:12:20 PM

Weasle, you are SO correct about the voting habits. People reporting the news ask stuff like "Can a white be elected mayor of Detroit"' rather than asking "what is your plan for the city?". Shame.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 11:09:46 AM

weasle - "strawman" - how so. YOu are the one saying that they shouldnt have to abide by their contracts - so they can keep cultural items.

Culture isnt something you buy - unless you have a different idea than I do. Culture is something that comes from within. It is being an adult and living up to the laws of the society your in.

True culture is demonstrated by actually keeping your word - even when its hard.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 11:09:20 AM

"I live here, I know what is going on."

I used to live there, I don't see myself ever going back.

I 100% agree with everything you posted - even if it means a change to the GOP with regards to leadership. The majority in the City won't change their voting habits, unfortunately...
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EZExit
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 11:05:53 AM

Pard, I do NOT live anywhere near your city, but as an outsider, what you describe is exactly what it looks like from my vantage point as well...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 11:02:21 AM

"Which party has been running detroit for the last umpteen years?????"

Nobody from either party has done the City any good... Greed and corruption knows no bounds.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 11:01:38 AM

"han it would help them (not to mention hurting every other municipal borrower in the country) because nobody would loan them money ever again"

There are always 'entities' willing to try to make a buck. Most 'people' didn't loan Detroit money...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 11:00:13 AM

"Before a city can be considered cultured they should live by the laws of society and abide by the contracts they freely entered into."

Strawman.
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Pard
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Jul 14, 2013 6:45:35 AM

Funny how I haven't seen anyone here who is even CLOSE to the Detroit area. I live here, I know what is going on. What has happened is that people DO vote, but they vote on name recognition, or the fact that the candidates are black. Things weren't good before Coleman Young was elected, but the city's downfall accelerated with him and his unapologetic racism. Then came the good old notorious Kwame Kilpatrick, who treated Detroit like his very own fiefdom, wherein he was the 'Hip-Hop Mayor', young dazzling, and oh-so-corrupt. The same names are voted in again and again and again, if they lose an election for one position, like Whack-A-Mole, they turn up somewhere else. My city has been so abused.

I know there are no simple answers, and this is only one person's opinion, but it seems that the elected people of Detroit have raped and pillaged it, getting what they can when they can, enriching themselves, their families and their buddies, and the rest be damned.

Some have gone to prison, some are in court constantly, but really, there is never surprise anymore when someone is in court for enriching themselves at the city's expense.

We have had an unbroken string of Democrats in Detroit, we need a change. But the Dems are known around here as the Party of the Little Guy, and the unions are so firmly entrenched, I do not see HOW the city can be fixed.

Racial politics is the heart and soul of Detroit. Mike Duggan, a white Democrat and candidate for mayor, is being mercilessly attacked by Tom Barrow, a black, perennial loser (and ex-con)on the Detroit scene.

Financial mismanagement and continued corruption for decades has, if not killed my city, at least put it on life support.

I weep for my beloved Detroit.

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