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Author Topic: Please forgive Mark Sanford! Back to Topics
eldiablopoco

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Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 12:57:29 AM

Mark Sanford is attempting to run for Congress. Does disgraced Gov. Mark Sanford deserve a second chance? Why or why not?
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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 22, 2013 7:09:36 PM

And I don't think any other president fathered 7 kids with a slave.

President maybe not, but men of that era were often known to bed their slaves.

The point it, private sins, including adultery doesn't automatically mean someone is unfit for life to serve the common good; regardless of how some insist that is so.

Agreed, as long as private sins remain private. However, if those sins start to impede that politicians ability to operate under the branch of government he/she is a member then we have a problem. If that politicians is using my tax dollar to cover or fix their mess, again, I have a problem.
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plastic
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 22, 2013 5:19:40 AM

Right or wrong. I would imagine that a divorce, in that day and by a statesman, would be scandalous and damaging. He's a politician ad a wealthy and powerful man. He likely did what he thought he had to do to keep it together. If I recall the story correctly, the affair was not all that secret.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 10:23:52 PM

Plastic - it does not matter if he was 'in love or in lust' with another lady. He was married to someone else!
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plastic
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 9:53:32 PM

Lol! True, Norm!

His house is right down the road. It's a great place to visit and there are plenty of things to learn from the tour guides.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 6:32:44 PM

"He was in love with that slave and spent a lot of forbidden time with her."


LOL, isn't that what many involved in affairs do?
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plastic
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 6:18:05 PM

He was in love with that slave and spent a lot of forbidden time with her.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 6:15:01 PM

"I don't know if he stole public funds, but times were different then, and we do know that he was doing what was typical of that era."


No, he didn't steal public funds. And I don't think any other president fathered 7 kids with a slave.

The point it, private sins, including adultery doesn't automatically mean someone is unfit for life to serve the common good; regardless of how some insist that is so.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 5:04:50 PM

little debil - If I was alive then and if I knew he was doing what your accusing him of - I would not have voted for him.
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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 4:59:34 PM

Again, did Jefferson steal public funds or did he have a secretive private life fathering kids with a slave and yet remain an effective and influential public servant until his dying days?

I don't know if he stole public funds, but times were different then, and we do know that he was doing what was typical of that era.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 4:13:37 PM

"And there is the little matter of the stealing of public funds...

Add the stealing of public funds..."


Again, did Jefferson steal public funds or did he have a secretive private life fathering kids with a slave and yet remain an effective and influential public servant until his dying days?
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 4:04:20 PM

The proven inability to live up to your sworn oath should mean something!

Then when you violate multiple oaths and take money under false pretences and lie about it that should determine that the person is not to be trusted again.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 4:00:17 PM

"but if your adultery has implementation on my tax dollars or how you engage your "employer" [the people you are suppose to be representing], and/or how you legislate, then you are unfit."


And, my Grand Rapids friend, on that point you are correct.
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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 3:58:34 PM

So I don't think adultery is the only correct barometer for effective public service. It may indicate some things, but is not necessarily the true test of service to the public.

You are correct, but if your adultery has implementation on my tax dollars or how you engage your "employer" [the people you are suppose to be representing], and/or how you legislate, then you are unfit.
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michaelphoenix2
All-Star Author Tucson

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 5:05:46 PM

"Maybe the makeup of a person who becomes an adulterer is the same makeup of one who would become to run for public office. "



You have to be able to lie bribe and backstab to gain any political office in this country so sounds about right.

[Edited by: michaelphoenix2 at 5/20/2013 5:06:12 PM EST]
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reb4
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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 2:53:04 PM

"Um, the contention made here was that conservatives hold themselves to a higher moral standard (liberals have none) and that because of such higher standards, conservatives don't vote for people who live up to those standards (but liberals applaud immorality)."

Nice, you forgot the rest of my comments, but no supprise there...

I personally am disappointed when ever people fail... Being in office and having a long term affair in my book is bad... Lying to cover it up is doubly bad (we are not just talking about friends and of course wife, but also the people you serve)...

And there is the little matter of the stealing of public funds...

Add the stealing of public funds...

The couple of Democrats I mentioned would have gotten voted back in in a heartbeat. Even Jesse Jackson who apparently "feigned" a medical issue was voted in by a landslide instead of coming free. And I met and admired him in some areas.

"The first thing is stop voting for them - regardless of what slick promises they make. "

I readily agree with Flyboy. I can count a number of people that sounded great and promised to do things that later they changed there mind... Plenty of examples of that from Illinois and Chicago for me to use as examples. They are plentyful...
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plastic
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 2:21:58 PM

Maybe the makeup of a person who becomes an adulterer is the same makeup of one who would become to run for public office.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 1:47:14 PM

And all I'm saying is that some of the best politicians that have served this country have also been adulterers. I mean seriously, Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence and was a great president, but fathered 7 children out of wedlock with one of his slaves... And some of the most "moral" people have been horrible public servants.

So I don't think adultery is the only correct barometer for effective public service. It may indicate some things, but is not necessarily the true test of service to the public.

Just my two cents.
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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 12:59:19 PM

If that's the case then ANYONE who's ever lied (i.e., all of us) shouldn't be given such a position.

I should clarify my position a little more using solely adultery. If you cheat on your wife, that is your problem; however, if your principles condemn that action and you secretly practice those same principles, you are not fit for the position. If you move your mistress into tax payer paid housing, as the housekeeper, so that you can cheat on your wife, that is the problem of the public because you are utilizing tax payer dollars to support your indiscretions which is criminal. Again, both are examples of exclusion from politics.
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plastic
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 12:24:54 PM

>"Like lawyers need more bad press. Yuck."

I don't think this will have any impact on the public perception of lawyers.

:P
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 12:19:38 PM

"Well now we can add John Edwards to the list of shamed politicians who are trying to get back into politics."

I had not seen this story.

Like lawyers need more bad press. Yuck.
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RNorm
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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 12:18:31 PM

""This is how we get in these messes RNorm, we start applying weight to their crime as if one crime is more acceptable than the other."

Its not applying weight, but a matter of coming clean. Edwards would have never done so. I think (or it seems) that Sanford did (even though he misled everyone at the first).







""I agree, "I don't care what party they are - stop voting for them. Do not give them a position of trust again after they have proven they are people of no honor.""

If that's the case then ANYONE who's ever lied (i.e., all of us) shouldn't be given such a position.
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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 12:14:41 PM

I think Edwards is even worse than all the rest as philanders go.

This is how we get in these messes RNorm, we start applying weight to their crime as if one crime is more acceptable than the other. I agree, "I don't care what party they are - stop voting for them. Do not give them a position of trust again after they have proven they are people of no honor."
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plastic
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 12:12:06 PM

fly>"I don't care what party they are - stop voting for them. Do not give them a position of trust again after they have proven they are people of no honor."

Especially if they say "crap" or "makaka" on the campaign trail.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 12:02:48 PM

" What do we do about all the crooks or hypocrites that seek office after being outed? "

The first thing is stop voting for them - regardless of what slick promises they make.

I don't care what party they are - stop voting for them. Do not give them a position of trust again after they have proven they are people of no honor.
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plastic
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 11:59:27 AM

>"I think Edwards is even worse than all the rest as philanders go."

Again, it will be up to the voters in his area. Agree with the SMH.
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 11:50:50 AM

"Well now we can add John Edwards to the list of shamed politicians who are trying to get back into politics."


I think Edwards is even worse than all the rest as philanders go. He held on to the lie until the lie broke forth on its on. At least Sanford came clean long before...

SMH
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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 11:49:36 AM

Little guy - why is this topic still active?

Because people are providing insight to an epidemic in U.S. politics. They are searching for solutions to weed out one facet of corruption or hypocrisy.

Or...

It is something they still want to discuss.

Well now we can add John Edwards to the list of shamed politicians who are trying to get back into politics.

He is on that list, but what do we do about it? What do we do about all the crooks or hypocrites that seek office after being outed?
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plastic
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 11:35:34 AM

Well now we can add John Edwards to the list of shamed politicians who are trying to get back into politics.
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RNorm
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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 11:11:05 AM

"LOL, it was the people that voted that voted him into office."


Um, the contention made here was that conservatives hold themselves to a higher moral standard (liberals have none) and that because of such higher standards, conservatives don't vote for people who live up to those standards (but liberals applaud immorality).

We all know what Sanford did, and this thread really is about Mark Sanford, but yet there have been more posts demonizing Bill Clinton, which has nothing to do with Sanford at all.

The Bottom Line is that Sanford fell from grace, decided to run for elected office and was re-elected to represent a primarily republican district in a republican state.

Regardless of how conservatives want to spin it, you can't blame that on democrats and its been interesting how they've done all they can to avoid keeping the focus on Mark Sanford and only Mark Sanford.

PS: I also said from the beginning that everybody deserves a 2nd chance, even Mark Sanford, AND that being an adulterer doesn't mean you're incapable of being a good public servant; but really that you may not capable of being a good spouse.
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reb4
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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 10:24:44 AM

"LOL, but it was republicans who voted him into office..."

LOL, it was the people that voted that voted him into office.

As far as this independent voter I am amazed that people would place trust into someone who broke the trust of wife..., lied to voters and staff, and stole money ...

I would be willing to forgive him, but would have a serious hard time supporting him...

I had the same issues with Illinois Governor George Ryan though I never did vote for him for Governor (did vote for him for Secretary of State).

Some other well known Illinois candidates include Mel Reynolds (thankfully democratic party did not indorse him, though the one that won was Jesse Jackson Jr... which last year had his own issues)!

Or Dan Rostenkowski... He was convicted by justice deparment (Eric Holder). I like this quote: "Former President Gerald Ford, whose lone pardon letter in all his ex-White House years was on behalf of Rostenkowski, told a biographer, "Danny's problem was he played precisely under the rules of the city of Chicago. Now, those aren't the same rules that any other place in the country lives by, but in Chicago they were totally legal, and Danny got a xxxxxxx".

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RNorm
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Message Posted: May 19, 2013 7:33:34 PM

"It would take a Dem to understand that kind of thinking."


LOL, but it was republicans who voted him into office...
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AC-302
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Message Posted: May 19, 2013 3:59:21 PM

Little guy - why is this topic still active?
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: May 19, 2013 1:16:41 AM


RNorm, "Maybe you should ask them at the next GOP convention, being that they were primarily republicans in a heavy republican district..."

I'm afraid that wouldn't help.

It would take a Dem to understand that kind of thinking.

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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 19, 2013 12:52:05 AM

"Agreed. What could they have been thinking?


Maybe you should ask them at the next GOP convention, being that they were primarily republicans in a heavy republican district...
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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 11:56:46 PM

And now we wonder why government doesn't work. It is filled with all the same old crooks.
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Panama19
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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 11:37:40 PM


eldiablopoco, "...voters have failed to prevent someone from breaching our trust from regaining any office of representation"

Agreed. What could they have been thinking?

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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 8:46:17 PM

The question is one of trust and the character of those we choose to represent us.

Well, if that is the question here, then this is another example of a systemic problem promoted by voters in this country because voters have failed to prevent someone from breaching our trust from regaining any office of representation.
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RNorm
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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 11:32:05 AM

"You, OTOH, have consistently defended raising Clinton to a position of honor in the Dem Party by minimizing his long and disreputable history - while hypocritically disparaging Sanford's behavior at the same time."


My, your nose is growing again. I've said two things herein:

1. Everyone deserves a 2nd chance; and

2. The voters have spoken, so Sanford has his.

Unlike you, I have not demonized anyone, or excused their past behavior.

I guess for some folks, when cornered by your own posts, the answer is to lie and lie again.
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Gas4Gore
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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 11:03:45 AM

You have got to be kidding.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 10:52:32 AM


RNorm, "The only things you've been consistent about are:
1. Demonizing Clinton;
2. Sanitizing Sanford; and
3. Trying to pass off the lie that Republicans are morally superior to democrats"

If clearly laying out the public record is demonizing Clinton, then I have done that. It is Clinton however, that made his behavior appear to come more from the influences of demons than from angels.

I have never sanitized Sanford; I have said that his behavior makes him unfit for public service and that I would never support him.

You, OTOH, have consistently defended raising Clinton to a position of honor in the Dem Party by minimizing his long and disreputable history - while hypocritically disparaging Sanford's behavior at the same time.

I don't know that it can be fairly said that the GOP is "superior" in a strictly moral sense; they have their moral failures too, but the GOP base generally punishes them for their transgressions.

The Dems OTOH are clearly morally inferior to the rest of society based upon the immorality they support and the reprobates they raise to positions of honor in their Party.

That is obvious to any who look at them honestly.

I stress “honestly”.

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RNorm
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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 1:14:15 AM

"Shall we not move on to more important topics, like the latest rash of scandals over the current administrations' abuse of power? "


Um, there are multiple topics on the all of them, so take your pick...
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 1:13:18 AM

"Go back and review my comments. I have been consistent on this point from the beginning."


The only things you've been consistent about are:

1. Demonizing Clinton;
2. Sanitizing Sanford; and
3. Trying to pass off the lie that Republicans are morally superior to democrats.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 1:00:41 AM


eldiablopoco, "The question is about forgiveness and what we do afterward"

The question is one of trust and the character of those we choose to represent us.

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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 17, 2013 9:29:47 PM

A scandal is a scandal no matter who committed it. The question is about forgiveness and what we do afterward.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: May 17, 2013 9:57:17 AM


RNorm, "LOL, its funny how your points keep changing when they're disproven..."

Go back and review my comments. I have been consistent on this point from the beginning.

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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: May 17, 2013 9:36:26 AM

Jay - it sounds like the alternatives weren't any better, else Sanford wouldn't have got elected.

Say, why does this topic persist? Isn't it over? Shall we not move on to more important topics, like the latest rash of scandals over the current administrations' abuse of power?
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jayrad1957
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: May 17, 2013 9:30:29 AM

"The voters DID forgive Mark Sanford."

Holding their nose as they cast the ballot for him.
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: May 17, 2013 8:35:18 AM

The voters DID forgive Mark Sanford. Um, why is this thread still near the top again?
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RNorm
Champion Author San Bernardino

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Message Posted: May 17, 2013 12:38:43 AM

"That is my point."


LOL, its funny how your points keep changing when they're disproven...
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: May 16, 2013 10:02:10 PM


RNorm, "Sanford's troubles are actually quite common in the GOP..."

Surviving them is not - in the GOP.

Surviving them is the rule with the Dems.

That is my point.

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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: May 16, 2013 6:46:48 PM

"This was not known to the voters or the Party while he was in office."

Well, that depends on who you ask. In the grand scheme, it seems that this was an exceptionally great cover-up!

But other exception to the theory...

DARRELL ISSA - He made his money through creating the security system used in the Maserati Viper. Ironically, he was also arrested for stealing one of these cars in 1972 from Cleveland. In addition to this, the same year, he was arrested in Michigan for having an unregistered gun. He pleaded guilty of this. It didn't stop there, either. In December of 1979, he faked the theft of his Mercedes-Benz in an insurance scam.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH - The first of these offenses was for a theft at a hotel. George got drunk with some friends at a hotel and stole a Christmas wreath. That's just kid's stuff, but he was underage when it happened. The charges were later dropped when the wreath was returned. He was arrested again for rowdy behavior at a football game and again for driving under the influence. This involved his younger brother, Jeb, while near his family's summer home in Kennebunkport, Maine. He admitted his guilt, was fined $150, and had his driving license in the state suspended for two years.

REP. BOB DORNAN (R-CA) - In 1983 attempted to leave Grenada with a stolen AK-47. It was confiscated by the Army and destroyed.
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