mudtoe
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Jun 18, 2013 11:25:23 AM
djv: "From bondage to spiritual faith; from faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
Looks like some of us are in the complacency to apathy stage, while others have already reached the apathy to dependency stage. Romney thought that the latter was 47%, but he was 4 or 5 percent off.
mudtoe
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MiddletownMarty
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Connecticut
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Message Posted: Jun 18, 2013 11:08:48 AM
"The rumor of WMDs in Iraq were exaggerated to get us into the war."
Interesting way of putting that.
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djvang
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Jun 18, 2013 11:05:07 AM
[L=http://www.famousquotessite.com/text deleted Fraser Tyler, Cycle Of Democracy (1770)[/L]
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over lousy fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years. These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage."
It's too late. Get your free stuff while you can.
[Edited by: djvang at 6/18/2013 11:10:12 AM EST]
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PopcornPirate
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Jun 18, 2013 10:00:09 AM
""But yet, it was ok to DOUBLE the deficit, lose 800,000 jobs a month, wage wars on credit and have the biggest recession since the great depression???? Yeah, those were the days!""
The rumor of WMDs in Iraq were exaggerated to get us into the war.
Big mistake believing we would also be considered Liberators of a totalitarian regime.
loosing 8000,000 jobs. Was not Congress & the Senate all Democrat controlled the last 2 years of W's Presidency? When the housing bubble ( started under Clinton ) burst & the economy tanked?
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Jun 17, 2013 12:39:02 PM
Score another one for the chinese. They have now constructed the world's fastest supercomputer. It's more than twice as fast as the previous recordholder which was (you guessed it) made in the United States.
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RNorm
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San Bernardino
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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2013 12:06:07 PM
"It became to late, the instant obama was re elected. "
But yet, it was ok to DOUBLE the deficit, lose 800,000 jobs a month, wage wars on credit and have the biggest recession since the great depression???? Yeah, those were the days!
My what faulty memories you conservatives have.
[Edited by: RNorm at 6/15/2013 12:07:38 PM EST]
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2013 11:53:51 AM
>>Such an extravagance isn't necessarily a measure of prosperity. The biggest reason that China supplies so many goods to the U.S. is that their labor is dirt cheap compared to ours. Their living conditions for the most part are very substandard and we saw how poorly their habitats were constructed when that earthquake struck a few years ago.<<
Most russians were not prosperous under the Soviet Union either. That did not prevent them from being a superpower for 40 years. Russia is not considered a superpower today because it cannot currently project power effectively beyond it's own borders. China on the other hand is rapidly modernizing their economy and their military.
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jeskibuff
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Tampa
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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2013 8:38:29 AM
MiddletownMarty said: "To China's credit, I read they're opening the world's longest high-speed rail line. America--policeman to the world--on the other hand, can't seem to get potholes repaired."
Such an extravagance isn't necessarily a measure of prosperity. The biggest reason that China supplies so many goods to the U.S. is that their labor is dirt cheap compared to ours. Their living conditions for the most part are very substandard and we saw how poorly their habitats were constructed when that earthquake struck a few years ago.
We saw how Saddam Hussein had multiple palaces to live in while people lived in squalor, for example the Shiites in Sadr City.
China put on one of the best shows ever in Olympic history, but you really can't measure a nation by the shows they put on.
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Tru2psu2
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Winston-Salem
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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2013 7:29:32 AM
We may be done...
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kiatoindos
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Chicago
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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2013 7:06:52 AM
I DON'T KNOW.
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theTower
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Indiana
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Message Posted: Jun 14, 2013 5:36:33 PM
"Gen George Patton had lost much of his luster after WWII"
Maybe thats because he died in 1945.
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mudtoe
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Jun 14, 2013 5:26:02 PM
"What happened to Rome?"
Same thing happening to us. Only difference is that it took about 300 years for Rome to go from its peak to the fall, where in our case it will likely be complete in 100 years, our peak being in 1945 at the end of WWII.
mudtoe
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Grizdad
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San Bernardino
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Message Posted: Jun 14, 2013 5:21:41 PM
What happened to Rome?
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sgm4law
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Maryland
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Message Posted: Jun 14, 2013 11:54:26 AM
On a hopeful note, the Supreme Court issued an opinion yesterday that will free up and drive innovation in genetics and genomics for the future. This will be a turning point in the biotech industry.
Yay!
Ass'n for Molecular Pathology v. Myriad Genetics.
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Jun 14, 2013 11:48:22 AM
I see the chinese are planning to construct a shipping canal thru Nicaragua. There was a time when the United States did things like that. We can't even get men in space anymore without a russian taxi. Maybe the chinese will take us up in space if we ask them nicely. It's pretty obvious who will be the ascendant power in the 21st century.
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Feb 28, 2013 6:05:32 AM
The federal government will spend 3700 billion dollars this year. Our elected officials can't stomach 86 billion dollars in cuts to future spending. How can anyone not be a pessimist? Wait until the checks stop coming.
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Tru2psu2
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Winston-Salem
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Message Posted: Jan 14, 2013 12:58:28 PM
Lots of pessimism here...
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Jan 14, 2013 12:47:45 PM
Our federal government continues stumbling along from issue to issue while our general path of decline never changes. I've never seen the dysfunction this bad in my lifetime. Our leaders can no longer effectively address our long term problems. The federal government under our first constitution(The Articles of Confederation)also could not act effectively. We are approaching that point with our present constitution. We will never be able to pay back what we have borrowed on the "full faith and credit of the United States". The states need to act independently and call for a constitutional convention to revise our governing framework. The current dynamic of republicans safe in gerrymandered districts versus democrats riding a wave of shifting demographics is accelerating our road to ruin.
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gocatgo
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South Carolina
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Message Posted: Jan 4, 2013 11:57:35 AM
Americans change their minds all the time. Today's bad boy can be tomorrow's hero. Nixon did it and was elected Prez. Bill Clinton did it after Monica and became an elder statesman. Truman went from a zero to a hero years after leaving the White House. Gen George Patton had lost much of his luster after WWII until the movie came out. Things change.
At this point in time we don't know what will happen in the next congressional elections.
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RAB2010
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Kalamazoo
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Message Posted: Jan 4, 2013 11:29:55 AM
Yes, it is too late. This is not the "new norm," but a transitional stage.
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mudtoe
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Jan 3, 2013 12:23:37 PM
therder: "Looks like it may happen sooner. Argentina just demanded Britain hand over the Falklands in the british press again."
I saw that too. Britain lacks both the will and the power this time to stop Kirchner if she does invade the Falklands. All they could do is make feeble protests to the U.N. Fast forward about 50 years and this will be the United States.
mudtoe
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cbuck80
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Massachusetts
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Message Posted: Jan 3, 2013 8:24:50 AM
The country will not be turning around anytime soon.
One day soon things wi9ll come to ahead and everything will be unrecoverable.
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Jan 3, 2013 7:40:37 AM
Mudtoe>>As an aside regarding Britain, I'd say that there is about a 50/50 probability of Argentina making another grab at the Falklands in the next 10 years (maybe sooner because Kirchner is having problems staying in power and may need that as a means to rally support behind her), and this time Britain, having decayed further since the 1980s, will no longer have the power to stop them.<<
Looks like it may happen sooner. Argentina just demanded Britain hand over the Falklands in the british press again.
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Pard
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Detroit
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 10:06:27 PM
China doesn't have the EPA and they aren't strangled by unions and regulations.
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ministorage
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Louisville
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 9:08:07 PM
Comrade Marty: "To China's credit, I read they're opening the world's longest high-speed rail line. America--policeman to the world--on the other hand, can't seem to get potholes repaired."
It cost a trillion dollars. Wanna guess how they're paying for it?
Wanna guess how we'd pay for it? (That's right--we'd leverage our future even more, borrowing more $$$ from our children.)
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mudtoe
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 8:07:50 PM
nsb: "It became to late, the instant obama was re elected. "
I agree. While it is entirely likely that it was already too late prior to last month's election, Obama's victory made it a virtual certainty because instead of struggling against what was already likely but possibly not quite yet inevitable, which is what Romney and Ryan would have done, Obama will do everything within his power to hasten our descent into the abyss by adding to the debt and strangling the economy at a faster pace than before.
mudtoe
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 6:56:00 PM
>>Are we going to admit that a representational self-government is a bad idea and go back to a monarch or dictator? I think not.<<
It doesn't have to be a single tyrant,more likely a gradual slide into tyranny over the course of generations. It is already happenning. Federal income taxes were a good idea in 1912 only a few were affected and the amendment was ratified. Look at our tax structure now. In the 1930's Social Security was enacted. It was not constitutional but we didn't even bother with an amendment. Now almost everyone is required to be part of it. The Great Society programs in the 1960's along with the addition of medicare and now obamacare. There are now people in this country who have been receiving govt assistance for generations. It is not a helping hand anymore. They are used to it and believe it is owed to them now. When the government does more for you it requires you to give up part of your liberty in return. Once the population gets used to being taken care of it becomes easy to give up your liberty in exchange for security and comfort. We will eventually become desperate enough to do it.
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noseatbelt
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Indiana
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 6:24:16 PM
It became to late, the instant obama was re elected.
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owt
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Tennessee
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 6:19:44 PM
never to late to try, just got to muddle through all the B.S. coming out of DC and hope for the best
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mudtoe
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 4:47:59 PM
therder: "While Britain was in decline we always had their back. Who will have ours?"
Excellent question! While we will still have nuclear weapons that will likely prevent a 20th century style invasion of the United States, we will be bankrupt and at the economic mercy of the new powers of the 21st century; and we will have little say in the affairs of the world, again just like Britain today. Our natural resources will be mortgaged and put to work for other nations, while our best and brightest will leave for greener pastures, much as their great grandparents left Europe during their youth looking for a better life in America.
As an aside regarding Britain, I'd say that there is about a 50/50 probability of Argentina making another grab at the Falklands in the next 10 years (maybe sooner because Kirchner is having problems staying in power and may need that as a means to rally support behind her), and this time Britain, having decayed further since the 1980s, will no longer have the power to stop them.
mudtoe
[Edited by: mudtoe at 12/28/2012 4:50:16 PM EST]
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MiddletownMarty
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Connecticut
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 4:37:02 PM
To China's credit, I read they're opening the world's longest high-speed rail line. America--policeman to the world--on the other hand, can't seem to get potholes repaired.
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Pard
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Detroit
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 4:35:47 PM
Would be nice if the pols would FOLLOW the Constitution.
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 4:28:54 PM
I remember at the end of the Carter Administration the United States went from the world's largest creditor nation to largest debtor nation in 2 years. Japan began buying up everything in sight and I heard a lot of the same misgivings about them in the '80s that I hear about China today. Japan overreached and their economy collapsed. I do not see that happening with China.
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MiddletownMarty
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Connecticut
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 4:07:05 PM
American households would equate to Treasury bonds, would it not?
You seem to have missed the bit preceding the part you quoted:
"Of all the holders of U.S. debt China is the third-largest, behind only the Social Security Trust Fund's holdings of nearly $3 trillion and the Federal Reserve's nearly $2 trillion holdings in Treasury investments, purchased as part of its quantitative easing program to boost the economy."
and the last bit at the end:
"Despite such joking, the truth is the bulk of the $14.3 trillion U.S. debt - $9.8 trillion in all - is owned by the American people and its government."
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SemiSteve
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Tampa
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 4:05:58 PM
I have to cling to the possibility that we can work things out and endure.
I know it does not look good long term.
Yes, it is a big challenge.
But we have risen to big challenges before. And we have met them with success. We did it before and we can do it again. It is the only thing we CAN do. To give up makes no sense. And how could we possibly come up with a better Constitution?
Are we going to admit that a representational self-government is a bad idea and go back to a monarch or dictator? I think not.
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 4:00:32 PM
Interesting analogy about Britain and The United States. While Britain was in decline we always had their back. Who will have ours? China? The UN? Even now politicians still spout rhetoric like "America's best days are ahead". Eventually we'll surrender our liberty to a tyrant who promises change and security. That is the example of history.
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EZExit
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Phoenix
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 3:59:12 PM
From Marty's link:
"To put China's ownership of U.S. debt in perspective, its holding of $1.2 trillion is even larger than the amount owned by American households. U.S. citizens hold only about $959 billion in U.S. debt, according to the Federal Reserve.
Other large foreign holders of U.S. debt include Japan, which owns $912 billion; the United Kingdom, which owns $347 billion; Brazil, which holds $211 billion; Taiwan, which holds $153 billion; and Hong Kong, which owns $122 billion."
*********
Yeah, China on its own holds more notes on America than its own citizens, not a good recipe for economic stability. Yeah, we're economically doomed, and I have prepared for it. :)
I feel sorry for all the takers, who won't know what hit them...
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MiddletownMarty
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Connecticut
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 3:52:15 PM
China owns about 8% of publicly held U. S. debt.
How Much U.S. Debt Does China Really Own?
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mudtoe
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 3:49:37 PM
sr: "just be ready to cow tow for china"
You mean like this?:
China, our new landlord
mudtoe
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streetrider
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Gary
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 3:15:40 PM
just be ready to cow tow for china
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mudtoe
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Cincinnati
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 2:54:18 PM
I believe our path in the 21st century will be just like Britain's path in the 20th. At the turn of the 20th century Victorian Britain was the sole undisputed superpower of its age. At the turn of the 21th century socialist Britain was a broke has been nation whose people look nostalgically backwards at past glory and accomplishments rather than looking forward to the bleak future that awaits them.
So it shall be with us.
mudtoe
[Edited by: mudtoe at 12/28/2012 2:58:06 PM EST]
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therder
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2012 2:48:58 PM
All great powers eventually decline. The United States is on that path. Our political system cannot react fast enough to the long term problems we are facing like the exploding national debt,the flood of illegal aliens,the explosion of entitlements,disappearance of the middle class, etc. We have also exhausted ourselves since the end of the cold war trying to plant democracy and chase terrorists. Our focus is now shifting from the middle east to the far east because our long term strategic planners know that China will be the ascendant power during the 21st century.
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