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Author Topic: The NRA's idea does not work. Back to Topics
Michiganian

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Michigan

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2012 4:11:46 PM

Just ask the survivors at Columbine HS, Fort Hood and Virginia Tech.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2015 2:45:36 AM

Some one steals a gun and ammo, there should be no such thing as excessive force when trying to stop them.
Stealing a gun from a federal fire arms dealer, thats multiple felonies right there.
Then you can only assume they stole it so they can kill some one or them selves.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2015 1:32:18 AM

flyboyUT - "RJ does it matter at this point how he did it. The fact is he did do it and almost died because of it. But the usual blame the cops brigade are out in full cry to crucify the cop who stopped him from hurting anyone."

Yes, it matters, because WM could be at fault, but I did finally find a description of what happened: "Valencia allegedly asked a store worker if he could see a rifle and then used it as a club to bash a case and threaten the employee, and ran off with the rifle and a box of .30-30 ammunition, police said. He loaded the weapon and pointed it at an officer before firing instead into the air".

However, your description of: "goes walking down the street randomly shooting the gun" isn't supported by any of the news articles I found. Apparently, he only fired the one shot. I certainly don't see this as a case of police brutality. It seems pretty clear that the guy was trying for 'suicide-by-cop' and almost got his wish. What would these fools have been saying/screaming if the perp had killed one or more people before being stopped? I think they're just disappointed that they haven't yet figured out how to blame the whole thing on guns, instead of human misbehavior.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 18, 2015 8:41:45 PM

RJ does it matter at this point how he did it. The fact is he did do it and almost died because of it. But the usual blame the cops brigade are out in full cry to crucify the cop who stopped him from hurting anyone.

[Edited by: flyboyUT at 4/18/2015 8:43:10 PM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 18, 2015 5:36:53 PM

Cirdan - "Guy goes into Walmart, steals a gun and ammunition'

I could see him stealing the ammo, but how would he get hold of the gun? Every WalMart I've been in keeps the guns in a locked rack, and usually most, if not all, of the ammo is locked up too.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 18, 2015 11:22:22 AM

Weasle - is it just possible that the velocity was chosen because the perp had a thutty-thutty deer rifle and the cop kinda wanted to reduce the time he was subject to being shot at?
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Apr 18, 2015 12:57:56 AM

If someone is shooting at you, there is NO such thing as excessive force.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 17, 2015 12:26:41 PM

"Cop hits him with a car."

Just a bit of an understatement...

I don't have a problem with the Officer using his vehicle to subdue the man, but good Lord, the velocity at which the perp was struck is just not reasonable.

The difference in this case vs. others which relate to 'excessive force', however, is that the intent of the Officer to hit the man as hard as he did is by no means clear - I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he just mistimed when to start applying the brakes as he was trying to catch the perp by surprise.

How are LEO's trained to handle this scenario? I see 2 Officers who were keeping their distance while presumably trying to keep the public out of harms way as well as passively direct the guy where they wanted him to go.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 17, 2015 11:36:09 AM

Cirdan ------- And a big AMEN on that one......
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Apr 17, 2015 1:10:42 AM

"Now, the night comes when you are attacked by a homicidal perpetrator wielding bludgeon or blade. You are forced to shoot him in self-defense. I can almost guarantee where the subsequent attack on you is going to come from:"

We have a real life case. Guy goes into Walmart, steals a gun and ammunition, and goes walking down the street randomly shooting the gun, a mortal danger to everyone in the vicinity. Cop hits him with a car. The guys lawyer complains they didn't give him an opportunity to surrender.

I think they should file a claim with his estate to pay for the damage to the patrol car ;-)

[Edited by: Cirdan at 4/17/2015 1:11:07 AM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 4:28:44 PM

dupe

[Edited by: rjhenn at 4/16/2015 4:33:14 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 1:06:51 PM

Read it see if you agree
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>>>We live in a world where the entertainment media and the news media alike have demonized the firearm as a frightening, high-efficiency killing machine. A myth has arisen that I call “hierarchy of lethality.” It is the false belief that the firearm represents the nuclear level of hand-held weaponry, and is somehow more lethal than other deadly weapons.

The general public sees the knife as something less: after all, they’ll open their mail in the morning with something very much like your opponent’s knife, and will slice the roast at dinner tonight with something virtually identical to the blade your opponent wields.

Because it’s an accoutrement of everyday life, they just don’t see the knife as a weapon, even though they know cognitively that it can be turned from culinary aid to murder weapon in a heartbeat. An impact weapon, a “club?” Well, they may see that as even less deadly.

Now, the night comes when you are attacked by a homicidal perpetrator wielding bludgeon or blade. You are forced to shoot him in self-defense. I can almost guarantee where the subsequent attack on you is going to come from:

“He only had a knife!”

“He only had a baseball bat!”

Opposing counsel may attempt to paint you as the bully and coward who used a deadlier weapon than your assailant, and will attempt to convince the jury that your shooting of a man with “a less than lethal weapon” is unfair and therefore improper.

Of course, this flies in the face of the legality of the matter, which is that within their range, the club and the knife are every bit as deadly as the gun…and, in some situations, can be deadlier."
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Interesting for sure......
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 12:27:48 PM

Ever wonder why vets dislike and dont trust the VA????
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>>>Nearly all of the individuals included on the Justice Department’s gun ban list in the “mental defective” category are referred by the Department of Veterans Affairs. This has Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley investigating a possible infringement on veterans’ Second Amendment rights.
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According to data from Congressional Research, in 2012 the VA was responsible for 99.3 percent of all “mental defective” referrals to NICS. That’s ironic given that it is veterans who are charged with protecting Americans’ constitutional rights, according to Grassley.

“It’s disturbing to think that the men and women who dedicated themselves to defending our freedom and values face undue threats to their fundamental Second Amendment rights from the very agency established to serve them,” Grassley said in a statement.

In his letter to Holder, Grassley wrote that the legal standard for a “mental defective” designation is whether individuals pose a danger to themselves or to others. But he claims that the VA’s standard is much more expansive.

“Instead VA reports individuals to the gun ban list if an individual merely needs financial assistance managing VA benefits,” Grassley wrote. “Although the VA process is not designed to regulate firearm ownership, it results in veterans and their loved ones being barred from exercising their fundamental, Constitutionally-guaranteed Second Amendment rights.”
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Grassley also wrote that the VA is not required to make a “clear and convincing” case that a particular veteran should be listed in the “mental defective” category. “Hearsay is allowed,” he wrote, while asserting that “there are no significant checks and balances in place to ensure that there is any evidence to conclude that a veteran is a risk to the public or themselves.”

Once the VA does determine that a veteran is unable to manage finances and benefits and fits into the “mental defective” category, the burden falls squarely on him or her to disprove it.

“In light of the liberty and property interests involved, placing the burden of proof on the veteran is highly suspect. Under similar circumstances, the burden is generally on the government,” Grassley wrote.<<<<
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Ohhhhhhh YEAH - trust us we are from the gubbiment and we are here to help you.....
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 1:15:55 AM

"Obsession and paranoia don't make for good science."

Sounds like AGW.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2015 7:59:36 PM

MiddletownMarty - "Ridiculous assertion."

So, Marty, what arguments do you have that aren't "fear-mongering rhetoric."?

Certainly not this one: "Gun owners face much higher murder risks, researchers said. Then the NRA silenced them."

Did they even consider the possibility that the direction of causation might be in the other direction, that people who were in danger of being murdered might be more likely to own a gun? No, they made the assumption that supported their preconceived result, which is why the NRA campaigned to cut their funding. Kellerman, in particular, has spent decades producing questionable anti-gun research. Obsession and paranoia don't make for good science.GTH - "To be completely fair, there is fear-mongering on both sides of the gun rights vs gun control debate. The NRA is as guilty as are gun-control advocates."

True, but the NRA's is based on the stated aims of gun control advocates.

jeskibuff - "The very simple question...."If the high rate of gun deaths in Chicago is caused by guns coming in from OUTSIDE the city, why isn't the rate of gun deaths outside the city higher than INSIDE it?"

Pretty clearly, guns don't cause crime or homicide, both are more a matter of culture.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2015 6:56:32 PM

Without devolving into a theological debate, we’d simply suggest that churches should focus on the work of saving souls and helping the needy without interjecting themselves into political battles that could end up costing them their non-profit status for delving into non-prophet issues..
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>>>rinity Church, an left-leaning, politically activist church in New York City, attempted to force a shareholder vote on the kind of firearms sold by Walmart in federal court.

Companies nationwide watched the case with rapt attention, as a victory by Trinity Church to determine something as mundane as product selection would create a quagmire of competing proposals from different special interest groups, making it nearly impossible for companies to function day-to-day.

Fortunately, a federal appeals court saw the obvious insanity of allowing such a proposal to move forward, and sided with Walmart and freedom.
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There has been a sad trend among some churches in some parts of the country to go beyond outreach into outright political activism, as Dave Workman notes in his article discussing both the Walmart case and the activist congregations that took part in the battle over anti-gun I-594 in Washington last year, which resulted in the passing of an unenforceable “universal background checks” law now being challenged in federal court.

Without devolving into a theological debate, we’d simply suggest that churches should focus on the work of saving souls and helping the needy without interjecting themselves into political battles...<<<
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2015 7:43:06 PM

I think I like how Ted thinks more and more as I hear him....
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jeskibuff
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2015 1:44:20 PM

oilpan4 said: "The gun fearing/hating liberals will never figure that one out."

Oh, I think they know they've lost the argument, like they have with that "the science is settled" globull warming myth they choose to cling to.

Facts never have been able to rid the irrational mind of the "truths" they choose to believe. Witness MiddletownMarty's admission that he had his mind made up about the Wilson/Brown shooting. No deluge of facts can change a mind with that kind of intransigence.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2015 11:36:31 AM

That crazy idea - - that folks have a right to be own arms and to bear arms seems to work well sometimes.
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>>>Officers responding to a call were flagged down by three individuals.

They said they had been in an altercation with a man, later identified by police as 22-year-old Darell D. Hitchins.

They said Hitchins approached them and without provocation pulled out a handgun. They said the man struck one of them in the head, possibly with the gun.

Once that occurred, the victim who was assaulted pulled out a handgun and fired several shots at the man, striking Hitchins at least once.

The man was pronounced dead at the scene.

Everyone involved in the incident remained at the scene and they are cooperating with investigators. No arrests have been made at this point, and Crump said the case will be submitted for review.<<<
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yep worked pretty well it seems - the good guys are alive and the bad guy is dead - and thats a fine outcome.
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daylily2009
Champion Author Fayetteville

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2015 10:58:21 AM

Says who??
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2015 9:12:32 AM

Chicago....Like shooting fish in a barrel....since they cant shoot back.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 8:43:58 PM

...."If the high rate of gun deaths in Chicago is caused by guns coming in from OUTSIDE the city, why isn't the rate of gun deaths outside the city higher than INSIDE it?"

LOL.
The gun fearing/hating liberals will never figure that one out.
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 5:31:20 PM

"If that were true this topic wouldn't have over 5400 posts."

Yeah, that works out to about 400 posts per person. {:>)
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 4:19:07 PM

"Of course, once the rhetoric is peeled away, gun rights advocates have the better arguments, given the the Second Amendment is on their side, among other things."

If that were true this topic wouldn't have over 5400 posts.

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jeskibuff
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 1:27:12 PM

SemiSteve said: "The problem is that illegal guns used in the high rate of gun deaths in Chicago come in from the outside of the city."

Don't try passing off that lame argument again.

At least not until you can HONESTLY answer the question I posed several hundred (or thousand) posts ago in this very thread.

Here's the question again. You really can't ignore it and hope to perpetuate your screwed-up logic...

The very simple question...."If the high rate of gun deaths in Chicago is caused by guns coming in from OUTSIDE the city, why isn't the rate of gun deaths outside the city higher than INSIDE it?"

The bottom of your argument completely falls out because you can't answer that question HONESTLY. The "inconvenient truth" is that the nature of the people within the city is different than the nature of the people outside the city. It's ghetto mentality and it won't be fixed by taking guns away from people who want and need to protect themselves from that ghetto mentality.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 1:20:07 PM

"To be completely fair, there is fear-mongering on both sides of the gun rights vs gun control debate. The NRA is as guilty as are gun-control advocates."

Probably.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 1:19:03 PM

Gun owners face much higher murder risks, researchers said. Then the NRA silenced them.

The power of intimidation and $$$...
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gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 12:42:00 PM

rjhenn: 'Funny, all gun control groups have is "fear-mongering rhetoric."'

Middletownmarty: "Ridiculous assertion."

To be completely fair, there is fear-mongering on both sides of the gun rights vs gun control debate. The NRA is as guilty as are gun-control advocates.

Of course, once the rhetoric is peeled away, gun rights advocates have the better arguments, given the the Second Amendment is on their side, among other things.

GTH
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 11:38:45 AM

"Funny, all gun control groups have is "fear-mongering rhetoric."

Ridiculous assertion.


"looming gun-control efforts in the final years of Barack Obama's presidency" --despite Republican control in both houses of Congress

nobody "should be forced to face evil with bare hands." --EEEEvil

"If they can ban one, they can ban them all." --no comment necessary

"There's no telling how far President Obama will go to dismantle our freedoms and reshape America into an America that you and I will not even recognize" --smh

"And when he's finished he intends to go out with a coronation of Hillary Rodham Clinton." --lol

"Scared yet?"



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daylily2009
Champion Author Fayetteville

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 10:58:28 AM

Says who??
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 10:17:19 AM

RJ - they have some really strange laws back east I think. Out here you only need a permit to carry concealed. However some to many folks here carry concealed without bothering to get a permit. No one really cares much about it as its not a problem here.

I got out of the shooting sports a long time ago when it became more important to raise a family than buy/build a new gun. I see times have really changed in terms of laws in a lot of the country. I'm not sure the changes are for the better by any stretch of the imagination.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 12:43:37 AM

flyboyUT -"ey Marty - is it true that one has to have some kind of a permit from the state where yo live to possess a handgun? Does that extend to rifles and shotguns too?

As of last year, you need a permit to purchase, according to the nraila site.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 4/13/2015 12:46:24 AM EST]
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Apr 12, 2015 8:04:25 PM

Hey Marty - is it true that one has to have some kind of a permit from the state where yo live to possess a handgun? Does that extend to rifles and shotguns too?

How does that tie in with the "shall not be infringed" thing of the 2nd amendment?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Apr 12, 2015 7:46:53 PM

MiddletownMarty - "NRA prayer meeting"

From the link: "Shannon Watts, the founder of Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, criticized what she called LaPierre's 'fear-mongering rhetoric.'"

Funny, all gun control groups have is "fear-mongering rhetoric." And proposals that, on average, will only make things worse. like "gun-free zones".
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2015 4:42:35 PM

NRA prayer meeting


LOL... actually "NRA leaders warn members of looming gun-control efforts"

"Leaders of the National Rifle Association on Saturday cited the new Republican majority in the U.S. Senate as evidence of the group's political clout, but warned of looming gun-control efforts in the final years of Barack Obama's presidency."

Must be time for a membership drive.
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 5:18:11 PM

"I don't like posting from a tablet."

Tablets suck. Give me a keyboard anytime.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 4:57:03 PM

The end of my last post:

instead of the root causes of violence we're not going to make much progress.

I don't like posting from a tablet.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 11:44:07 AM

" Illinois has lax gun laws "

They are now absolutely delusional.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 11:25:00 AM

Can semi auto guns be fired as fast as a full auto machine gun? Watch the video and let us know what you think....
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This might get interesting for sure. It looks like the laws concerning full auto vs semi auto are kinda obsolete wouldnt you say....
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 8:45:27 AM

"Stop and Frisk was awful."

As a lawyer, I thought stop and frisk (without probable cause) was a violation of the 4th Amendment. As a citizen vacationing in a big city, I thought it made me secure.

What was that quote by Franklin about security and freedom? <<rhetorical question>>
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 8:34:47 AM

"Aggressive policing, now banned as "racist" by the socialist mayor."

Stop and Frisk was awful. An incredible overreach of law enforcement.
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 8:30:51 AM

"Aggressive policing, now banned as "racist" by the socialist mayor."

Good response.

I was too busy responding to the ridiculous notion that Illinois has lax gun laws to get to the second question.
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 11:41:43 PM

"And how, then, is the very low gun death rate, along with the low rate of gun ownership of NY to be explained???"

Aggressive policing, now banned as "racist" by the socialist mayor.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 7:37:33 PM

Again the obsession with gun deaths. As I've said before, guns don't cause violence,violence causes guns.As long as the focus is on guns insteadof
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:57:24 PM

"And how difficult is it to obtain a card?

Easy, if you are a law abiding citizen. You just need to provide your full name, date of birth, street address of residence, Driver's License or Identification Card number, and a color photograph to the Illinois State Police who have 30 days to investigate you and approve or deny your FOID application.

All of the following will result in denial:

convicted of any Felony under the laws of IL or any other jurisdiction.
adjudicated as a mental defective.
been a patient in a mental institution or any part of a medical facility for the treatment of mental illness within the past 5 years.
intellectually disabled or developmentally disabled.
within the past year (preceding the date of this application) used or been addicted to any controlled substance or narcotics in violation of state or federal law.
subject of an existing Order of Protection or a No Contact/No Stalking Order.
within the past 5 years been convicted of battery, assault, aggravated assault, violation of an order of protection, or a substantially similar offense in which a firearm was used or possessed.
been convicted of domestic battery (felony or misdemeanor), aggravated domestic battery or a substantially similar offense.
adjudicated by a court as a mental defective or ordered by a court, board or authorized entity to in-patient or out-patient mental health treatment.
an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States.
a medical marijuana patient registry card holder.
within the past year failed a drug test for a drug for which I did not have a prescription.
been admitted to the United States under a non-immigrant visa of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
renounced my citizenship as a citizen of the United States.
been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
a fugitive from justice.


[Edited by: SE3.5 at 3/27/2015 5:03:13 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:49:23 PM

"And how, then, is the very low gun death rate, along with the low rate of gun ownership of NY to be explained???"

Haven't you been paying attention to the posts by A1 and others who blame the majority of crime on the black community? Clearly the answer is that there are fewer black in NY... <s>
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:47:31 PM

And how difficult is it to obtain a card?

"If you honestly believe that..."

And how, then, is the very low gun death rate, along with the low rate of gun ownership of NY to be explained???
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:38:00 PM

Steve, says "Illinois has lax gun laws"

FALSE!

(430 ILCS 65/2)

(a) (1) No person may acquire or possess any firearm, stun gun, or taser within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.
(2) No person may acquire or possess firearm ammunition within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.

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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:11:52 PM

"Obviously the simplest answer is also the most effective: ban bacon from burgers. No bacon allowed, no bacon to forget, no reason to shoot up a restaurant.

Oh, and if government confiscated all the money and all the possessions, there wouldn't be anything to steal so there would be no reason to use a gun in a robbery. Private property is so last millennium......"

Strange how some can only use hyperbole to refute a post...
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I75at7AM
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:10:23 PM

Obviously the simplest answer is also the most effective: ban bacon from burgers. No bacon allowed, no bacon to forget, no reason to shoot up a restaurant.

Oh, and if government confiscated all the money and all the possessions, there wouldn't be anything to steal so there would be no reason to use a gun in a robbery. Private property is so last millennium......

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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

Posts:30,493
Points:1,745,190
Joined:Aug 2008
Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 3:56:06 PM

"The simple fact is: the more guns, the more gun deaths. "

If you honestly believe that Steve you have other problems.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

Posts:20,710
Points:484,805
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 3:51:17 PM

Heard a very interesting radio show this morning.

States with stronger gun regulation and a lower percentage of gun ownership, ie: States with stronger gun laws and fewer guns:

Have fewer gun deaths.

Conversely,

States with lax gun laws and a higher percentage of gun ownership have more gun deaths.

New York State was cited with the third least number of gun deaths of all 50 States and a very low percentage of gun ownership, 18%, if I recall. And, of course, NY has the largest city.

And then the question was posed: 'But what about Chicago?'

Chicago is not a State. Illinois has lax gun laws and a high rate of gun ownership. The problem is that illegal guns used in the high rate of gun deaths in Chicago come in from the outside of the city.

It is then logical to assume that if areas with more stringent gun laws were expanded there would be fewer gun deaths.

This goes completely against the foolish and illogical NRA idea that more guns will solve the problem of having lots of gun deaths. The NRA is in the pocket of gun manufacturers and profiteers who are more concerned about profits than the number of deaths.

The simple fact is: the more guns, the more gun deaths.
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