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Author Topic: The NRA's idea does not work. Back to Topics
Michiganian

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Michigan

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2012 4:11:46 PM

Just ask the survivors at Columbine HS, Fort Hood and Virginia Tech.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 7:54:23 PM

"British General Thomas Gage"

Last time I posted about Thomas Gage the liberals jumped all over it and thought it was a joke.

stupid liberals
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 7:16:05 PM

I wonder if Lucky Gunner could file a lawsuit against the Brady Center, for filing a frivolous lawsuit.

The 5-gallon gas tank thing is a nice parallel.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 6:12:48 PM

Well if this type logic works for one thing why not another.
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Why did I smile at this one.
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This one should stir the pot a tad----
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Kinda makes you go hummmmmmm doesnt it.
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Kinda crude but there is a point to be made
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 5:31:28 PM

These are dangerous - we need better control of these things ----
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 5:28:12 PM

OK now - how many of you outside of Marty are 'domestic terrorists'?
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>>>They’ll keep chipping away at our rights until they destroy them all… if we let them.

It’s those measures — in particular, a restriction on ammunition magazine size, a ban on .50-caliber rifles, stricter limits on children’s access to firearms and mandatory safety training for gun owners — that will be their focus in the coming year. “Our top priority is a 10-round limit on magazine size,” said Bryan Miller, executive director of Heeding God’s Call, a faith-based organization focused on preventing gun violence.

“Nobody needs a 15-round ammunition magazine unless they are a domestic terrorist or a gangster,” Miller said. “We expect the legislative leadership to get behind this and the governor to see some sense.”

“Some sense” would be realizing that laws affecting only law-abiding gun owners do not affect gangsters, nor terrorists.

Miller is the worst kind of know-nothing demagogue, but this choice of language is deplorable, even for his low standards.<<<

Yep I'm real sure that the next batch of "Boston bomber" type folks are gonna check on what bombs, guns and other such things are legal for them to use.....
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 5:14:47 PM

Something to think back on -
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>>>>British General Thomas Gage didn’t like the concept of colonists having firearms and powder without the consent of the government. Gage pushed his luck… and colonists left the bodies of his Regulars and Royal Marines scattered along the Concord Road, triggering the Revolutionary War.
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In Massachusetts, police chiefs enjoy their fiefdoms, as does any good petty tyrant. They like to extend their powers and their reach, and cry out when they’ve been told that they may not seize more liberty from their citizens:

Top police officials and activists from Boston and area communities blasted the state Senate Tuesday for watering down gun control legislation by stripping a provision aimed at keeping rifles and shotguns out of the hands of dangerous people.

“I’m real disappointed in the Senate,” said Boston police Commissioner William B. Evans, standing with more than a dozen police officials and gun control advocates at the State House.

“What the Senate chose to do is placate the NRA instead of supporting law enforcement,” said John Rosenthal, founder of Stop Handgun Violence.

The unusual public criticism by police chiefs comes after the Senate last week voted to remove a House provision giving chiefs discretion to deny firearms identification cards, required to buy shotguns and rifles, to people they deem unsuitable. They now have that discretion over licenses to carry handguns.<<<

Maybe these east coast/big city "General Gage" type thinkers should read some history.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 5:07:08 PM

kind of funny
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 4:55:27 PM

on the knife one - sellers responsible
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try this on the angelic 17 year old

[Edited by: flyboyUT at 9/17/2014 4:59:44 PM EST]
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 12:33:28 AM

"A 17-year-old boy was burglarizing a house in Prairie Township when the homeowner shot and killed him early on Saturday, Franklin County Sheriff Zach Scott said this afternoon."

One less life career criminal to deal with.
The trick is to stop them early.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 12:26:39 AM

flyboyUT - "Sounds like sheer stupidity to me. Shall we apply the same standard to a store that sells steak knives or the local used car dealer - how about the guy who sells a baseball bat in a yard sale?"

http://bearingarms.com/text%20deleted/

Same for the next one.


[Edited by: rjhenn at 9/17/2014 12:27:44 AM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2014 12:22:37 AM

MiddletownMarty - "Responsible Gun Owner 'Accidentally' Hits Her Baby While Aiming For Dad"

Of course, it would be much better if there were no guns and the boyfriend just killed her and the baby.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 7:37:37 PM

That protect yourself thing worked after a fashion here too. "but he was a good kid" - horsefeathers - good kids dont commit armed robbery.
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>>>A 17-year-old boy was burglarizing a house in Prairie Township when the homeowner shot and killed him early on Saturday, Franklin County Sheriff Zach Scott said this afternoon.

Reb Barbee was armed with a knife and wearing an Insane Clown Posse mask when he was shot in the living room of 8798 Hubard Dr. S, investigators said.
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This is a crime that turned into a death because of the compounded stupidity of young criminals. In all likelihood, Reb Barbee would have lived if he had received prompt medical attention. Instead, he and his accomplices fled more than a half mile to Barbee’s home and did not call to get him medical attention for nearly an hour.

The emerging story of a home invasion gone wrong is radically different from an earlier version of events, in which Barbee was presented as a good kid who was “murdered” for no apparent reason.<<<

Are we going to make him out to be another gentle giant or some other pile of gebrauchte Pferdefutter.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 7:30:29 PM

Sounds like sheer stupidity to me. Shall we apply the same standard to a store that sells steak knives or the local used car dealer - how about the guy who sells a baseball bat in a yard sale?
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 7:27:23 PM

Worked pretty good in this case it seems.
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>>>While law enforcement officers immediately do everything in their power to get to the scene of a “shots fired” call, the simple fact of the matter is that it is very unlikely that they will be nearby when you need them, a fact that all police officers and sheriff’s deputies readily admit. They will not be able react in time to save you and your family.

You are your family’s first responder.

You are responsible for their defense, and for treating any wounds that they make incur from an attacker.<<<

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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 6:09:25 PM

So with a half billion guns in this country and you find one of these sob stories a day or every other day?
The numbers clearly aren't in your favor.
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 5:23:17 PM

Responsible Gun Owner 'Accidentally' Hits Her Baby While Aiming For Dad


A baby caught in the crossfire is recovering after she was accidentally shot by her own mother.

Late Sunday night, Murfreeboro police came to a downtown apartment complex after receiving a report of a shot fired.

They arrived to find a woman inside with a 9mm handgun.

Police believe she pulled it out during a heated argument with her boyfriend -- the father of her daughter.

"The two were involved in a verbal and then physical confrontation with the use of deadly force," said Kyle Evans with the Murfreesboro Police Dept.

Police said the woman fired a single round at her boyfriend and in a bizarre twist the same bullet hit both the child and her father.



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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:59:00 PM

Based on the ideas the weasle is proposing we should take the guns away from the cops and military too. After all "Which is the best defense - and standard SOP. Don't present yourself as a target.". Yep when faced with someone who wants to kill you the best thing to do is to run and hide so they can hunt you down. Makes lots of sense to some I guess.

People are entitled to their own opinion and they are free to do what they wish when faced with a life or death situation. Personally I would like the teachers to be armed and able to defend themselves and protect the students. When facing an armed killer a 45ACP in the hands of someone who knows how to shoot beats the heck out of a blackboard eraser in the hands of someone who know how to erase blackboards.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 12:49:10 PM

Weaslespit - "Not really, since SOP is for the building to go on lock-down during such an event since it is usually unknown where the attacker is at any given time."

So you're saying that current SOP is more likely to get people killed, by bottling them up where the killer can easily get to them?

"Which is still what the schools would be considered, since only authorized personnel will be authorized to carry - thus equally ineffective."

Except that there would be more of them, and their locations would be less predictable.

"The fact that the Navy shooter was able to purchase weapon identifies holes that need to be closed in the system."

Perhaps, but none of the incidents had anything to do with any "gun show loophole".

"Which is the best defense - and standard SOP. Don't present yourself as a target."

Yeah, that worked so well for those in the first two classrooms.

"Otherwise, you are asking that the Teachers hunt down somebody who is trying to kill them... It simply isn't realistic - they might indeed get lucky, but the key word there is 'might'."

Not "hunt down". Point defense. And "get lucky" is just another way of saying "improve the odds".

"Again - not based on the Ft. Hood and Navy facility incidents... You 'cannot' prevent loss of life when it comes to being ambushed by an irrational attacker, nor can you predict how they might react to any event (arrival of Police, a show of force, etc)."

But you can improve the odds. The measures you seem to favor don't appear to do anything but improve the shooter's odds of killing more people.

"Not as rare as mass shootings."

But not nearly as likely to get even one person killed, not to mention many people killed.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 8:51:25 AM

"Not really. Even if they aren't the type whose ultimate goal is suicide, almost any armed resistance will slow them down, perhaps give others more opportunity to escape."

Not really, since SOP is for the building to go on lock-down during such an event since it is usually unknown where the attacker is at any given time.

"Note also that military facilities are gun-free zones (no one except base security is allowed to possess a firearm on base, except during weapons training)"

Which is still what the schools would be considered, since only authorized personnel will be authorized to carry - thus equally ineffective.

"and that all three shooters purchased their weapons from legitimate sources, including passing background checks. Yet after the shootings, gun control proponents tried to use the incidents as reasons to "close the gun show loophole".

The fact that the Navy shooter was able to purchase weapon identifies holes that need to be closed in the system.

"About all any of the other teachers did, or could do, was hide."

Which is the best defense - and standard SOP. Don't present yourself as a target.

"What, be able to defend themselves and their charges?"

To get lucky. You wanted a teacher in the faculty meeting to have been armed so they would have gotten a chance to put a cap in him before he had a chance to move through the building. That would have been pure luck. Otherwise, you are asking that the Teachers hunt down somebody who is trying to kill them... It simply isn't realistic - they might indeed get lucky, but the key word there is 'might'. Police officers and other trained individuals find it difficult enough to engage an attacker, much less those you are looking to.

"More guns, along with more and better training, would be an effective stopgap measure while we make other, longer-term improvements."

Again - not based on the Ft. Hood and Navy facility incidents... You 'cannot' prevent loss of life when it comes to being ambushed by an irrational attacker, nor can you predict how they might react to any event (arrival of Police, a show of force, etc).

"And still rare. The fear of accidental discharges is more a result of paranoia about guns than of rational thought."

Not as rare as mass shootings.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2014 2:35:36 AM

Weaslespit - "That is an awfully big 'if'..."

Not really. Even if they aren't the type whose ultimate goal is suicide, almost any armed resistance will slow them down, perhaps give others more opportunity to escape.

"Anecdotally... They don't fi the events at Ft. Hood nor the Naval facility, however."

Well, that depends on which Ft Hood shooting you're talking about. If you're talking about the 2009 shooting, you're correct. If you're talking about the 2014 shooting, the shooter committed suicide the first time anyone returned fire. The difference appears to be motive. And the Navy Yard shooter had a long history of violent behavior and mental health issues, but was not suicidal.

Note also that military facilities are gun-free zones (no one except base security is allowed to possess a firearm on base, except during weapons training) and that all three shooters purchased their weapons from legitimate sources, including passing background checks. Yet after the shootings, gun control proponents tried to use the incidents as reasons to "close the gun show loophole".

"Have you not read the accounts of what happened? I think many children's lives were saved that day through the bravery of their teachers, some who lost their life."

All except one child in the first classroom he entered were killed. In the second classroom, apparently the only reason any of the children survived is because they ran and Lanza fumbled a reload. The teacher, teacher's aide, and five children died in that room. Lanza shot himself about a minute after the police arrived, even though they didn't enter the building until about 5 minutes later. About all any of the other teachers did, or could do, was hide.

"Not as defined when discussing a school, movie theatre, college campus, etc."

Actually, pretty much exactly as so defined. All weapons, except those currently issued to base security, are locked up and not available.

"I'm portraying the reality of what you are asking teachers to do."

What, be able to defend themselves and their charges?

"IOW, the proliferation of guns is more important than the lives of people. More guns is not the answer."

More guns, along with more and better training, would be an effective stopgap measure while we make other, longer-term improvements.

"A perfect example. And this is with a trained officer - imagine arming teachers. Yikes."

And still rare. The fear of accidental discharges is more a result of paranoia about guns than of rational thought.
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 8:13:38 PM

Responsible Gun Owner Charged After 7 Y.O. Shoots Herself Playing With Mommy's Gun


The Charlotte Observer reports that Heather Nicole Davenport, 27, was arrested Saturday and charged with failure to properly secure a weapon after her 7-year-old daughter shot herself in the hand while playing with a gun that Davenport owned.

The shooting allegedly happened while Davenport was asleep. Davenport said that her two daughters, 7 and 5-years old, found the loaded firearm and while "playing" with it, the gun went off.


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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 6:40:27 PM

Lets see here now - this guy is saying that we need more gun control adn that private citizens should not be allowed to own guns but he just tried to buy a Panzer tank? Say again - you were garbled.....
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>>>If you've paid attention at all to the gun control debate over the past two decades, you've certainly heard the argument from gun control activists, "What do you want? For people to be able to buy and own tanks?!"

That argument and question are red herrings. The average citizen is not trying to own or buy tanks (even though there are legal ways to do it), but an anti-gun billionaire dedicated to taking away your Second Amendment rights, just bought one.

Co-founder of Microsoft Paul Allen has dumped hundreds-of-thousands of dollars into anti-gun campaigns and now, he's the proud owner of a WWII Nazi tank. Chris Egar over at Guns.com has more:

The tank in question, a Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. H, commonly referred to as a Panzer IV, was allegedly sold in July for $2.5 million to a foundation tied to Allen. However, attention over the deal, which is now tied up in a lawsuit over non-delivery, has now earned Allen the scorn of gun rights groups when compared to the tech pioneer’s half-million dollar donation to help push gun control ballot initiative I-594.

“While Paul Allen is eager to get his hands on a genuine weapon of war … he is all-too-willing to support a measure that throws obstacles in the way of law-abiding citizens who may just want to borrow or buy a firearm from a friend or in-law,” said Alan Gottlieb, chairman of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, in a statement Friday. “How silly is that?”

I thought "weapons of war" belonged on the battlefield, Mr. Allen?

You just can't make this stuff up. <<<

'Do as I say --- not as I do' ---- is more evident as being the liberal mantra on everything it seems.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 4:48:03 PM

A perfect example. And this is with a trained officer - imagine arming teachers. Yikes.
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 4:47:53 PM

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< "So you are saying somebody who is mentally unstable would suddenly respond rationally to 'armed' resistance?" >

. Absolutely, when a murderous deranged religic is shot by a good person with a gun, the deranged religic finally faces reality and does the rational thing of DYING... they don't shoot or kill anyone else after that... no praying to an imaginary 'God'/sky fairy/Allah/Jehovah/Mohammad or imaginary Jesus stops them from dying...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 4:34:25 PM

"No, I'm saying that armed resistance would probably trigger the suicidal impulse that they were already committed to."

That is an awfully big 'if'...

"Perhaps, but my interpretation fits the actual events."

Anecdotally... They don't fi the events at Ft. Hood nor the Naval facility, however.

"Being unarmed, they weren't able to do so very effectively."

Have you not read the accounts of what happened? I think many children's lives were saved that day through the bravery of their teachers, some who lost their life.

"Unintended discharge is rarer than mass shootings, which are themselves rare. That's why almost any unintended discharge makes the news."

Rarely do unintended discharges make national headlines - especially since most don't currently occur in 'gun-free zones'... It happens far, far more often than you think, since many times people get lucky and don't kill somebody.

"Army and Navy facilities, as previously mentioned, are gun-free zones, as normally defined."

Not as defined when discussing a school, movie theatre, college campus, etc.

"I think you're reaching for some excuse to keep guns out of the hands of teachers."

I'm portraying the reality of what you are asking teachers to do.

"IOW, the absence of guns is more important than the lives of children."

IOW, the proliferation of guns is more important than the lives of people. More guns is not the answer. Getting people the help they need and keeping guns out of the hands of those who have been deemed unfit to me would seem like the best bang for the buck, along with enforcement of all gun laws currently on the books.

Take the resources from the war on drugs after making marijuana legal.people get lucky and don't kill somebody.

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 9/15/2014 4:40:02 PM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 2:45:49 PM

Weaslespit - "So you are saying somebody who is mentally unstable would suddenly respond rationally to 'armed' resistance?"

No, I'm saying that armed resistance would probably trigger the suicidal impulse that they were already committed to.

"Interpreting them to fit your perception of reality. Key word being 'interpretation', no?"

Perhaps, but my interpretation fits the actual events.

"Seems to me they were protecting lives."

Being unarmed, they weren't able to do so very effectively.

"I disagree. But you do open the door to unintended consequences, notably unintended discharge - which is a real issue - in a very sensitive environment."

Unintended discharge is rarer than mass shootings, which are themselves rare. That's why almost any unintended discharge makes the news.

"Again, this assertion is shown to be false given the random acts of violence at both Army and Navy facilities in the recent past. If these facilities, which number far fewer than gun-free zones, have such issues than you cannot make the connection as you have."

Army and Navy facilities, as previously mentioned, are gun-free zones, as normally defined.

"So you are advocating for teachers to leave their charges unattended in such an event? Or just hoping to get lucky that a staff member happens to be in the right place a the right time (ie faculty meeting)?"

I think you're reaching for some excuse to keep guns out of the hands of teachers.

IOW, the absence of guns is more important than the lives of children.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2014 9:01:09 AM

"The principal's only weapon was indignation."

So you are saying somebody who is mentally unstable would suddenly respond rationally to 'armed' resistance?

"So you don't think the police would be perceived as "resistance"?"

I can't say for certain how somebody who is not rational would perceive the police. It can certainly trigger a reaction but why it does and what reaction depend on the shooter.

"No, I'm just interpreting events in reality."

Interpreting them to fit your perception of reality. Key word being 'interpretation', no?

"It's more reassuring than just sitting there waiting to die."

Seems to me they were protecting lives.

"No, but you can reduce the number who die."

I disagree. But you do open the door to unintended consequences, notably unintended discharge - which is a real issue - in a very sensitive environment.

"OTOH, all efforts such as gun-free zones do is increase the potential for death."

Again, this assertion is shown to be false given the random acts of violence at both Army and Navy facilities in the recent past. If these facilities, which number far fewer than gun-free zones, have such issues than you cannot make the connection as you have.

"Kids were killed in two classrooms. And the loss of life could have been greatly reduced if one or more of the 8 staff in the faculty meeting that the principal was in at the start of the attack had been armed."

So you are advocating for teachers to leave their charges unattended in such an event? Or just hoping to get lucky that a staff member happens to be in the right place a the right time (ie faculty meeting)?

Neither of those is very reassuring, IMO...
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 14, 2014 1:26:42 AM

Passer - "But it would take many years and in the meantime many people would needlessly lose their lives or be injured while we are "waiting"."

Except that there's no evidence that restrictions on guns make any actual difference in total rates of violent death.

"I don't think "just as many" is correct. Whatever one thinks about guns, they are very efficient and much more efficient than many alternatives. That, unfortunately, is part or most of their appeal."

For self defense, as well. Restrict guns and you'll probably see more innocent victims die and fewer criminals.

But the total would probably be a wash.
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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2014 4:43:59 PM

And here is the analysis of "the myth" directly from the source, which is not the NRA, not even Fox, but the New York Times.

[Edited by: SE3.5 at 9/13/2014 4:45:35 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2014 12:56:36 PM

Seems the NRA idea gave a homeless person a place to live....
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>>>Dim-witted criminals are increasingly turning to realistic replica firearms to carry out armed robberies, but haven’t seemed bright enough to pick up on the fact that concealed carry is rapidly growing in most states. The resulting conflicts are putting more criminals in hospitals, morgues, and jails, even in areas that aren’t typically viewed as Second Amendment-friendly, such as Springfield, Massachusetts.

A man armed with a fake gun was unsuccessful in his attempt to rob the Walnut Convenience Store after the owner drew a real gun on Wednesday night.
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Pelzer attempted to flee the store once he lost control of the situation, but the owner had different ideas, Delaney said.

“The store owner called 911 and held the robber inside the store at gunpoint until the cavalry arrived,” Delaney said.

The store owner showed a lot more restraint than many armed citizens would might have after being assaulted by a subject apparently carrying a weapon.

Springfield police Sgt. John Delaney dryly noted that the robber, Pelzer, was homeless before the crime, will be taking up residence at the Hampden County House of Correction, so that he has at least that going for him.

I love a police officer with a sense of humor.<<<

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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2014 12:52:50 PM

Interesting admission from this paper.....
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>>>In a stunning op-ed released Friday, the NY Times finally admitted that “assault weapons” are a made-up political term fabricated by anti-gun Democrats.

Op-ed writer Lois Beckett also admitted that once the term was manufactured and used to outlaw a class of weapons that dishonest anti-gun Democrats had used to con an entire nation, nothing happened.

It was much the same in the early 1990s when Democrats created and then banned a category of guns they called “assault weapons.” America was then suffering from a spike in gun crime and it seemed like a problem threatening everyone. Gun murders each year had been climbing: 11,000, then 13,000, then 17,000.

Democrats decided to push for a ban of what seemed like the most dangerous guns in America: assault weapons, which were presented by the media as the gun of choice for drug dealers and criminals, and which many in law enforcement wanted to get off the streets.

This politically defined category of guns — a selection of rifles, shotguns and handguns with “military-style” features — only figured in about 2 percent of gun crimes nationwide before the ban.

Handguns were used in more than 80 percent of murders each year, but gun control advocates had failed to interest enough of the public in a handgun ban. Handguns were the weapons most likely to kill you, but they were associated by the public with self-defense. (In 2008, the Supreme Court said there was a constitutional right to keep a loaded handgun at home for self-defense.)
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They created and then banned a class of weapons.

“Assault weapons” is a made-up term, used to scare citizens into thinking that military weapons were commonly being sold and used on the streets of the United States. Thanks to a dishonest and incompetent media, millions of Americans thought (and still think) that machine guns could simply be purchased at the local gun store. The reality that the Hughes Amendment to the Firearm Owners Protection Act outlawed the manufacture of automatic weapons for the civilian market in 1986, was always hushed up.
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But career criminals don’t want long guns. They want firearms that are compact and easy to conceal.

The op-ed concludes that violent homicides are primarily a poverty issue disproportionately concentrated among small groups of particularly violent young men, a stunning and rare admission that poverty and the drug trade are the primary problem driving murder, not access to firearms.

Don’t expect this sort of stunning admission of the facts to mark a change in cover from the Times, however. The brief bout of lucidity will quickly fade behind the veil of Alzheimer’s liberalism, and we’ll hear the rest of the deranged gaggle of op-ed writers to quickly fall back into the mantra of “Guns are bad, the NRA is evil, we need more taxes, government, citizen control, etc.”<<<

I dont expect the rabid antigunners to ever accept or understand this but maybe there is a ray of light somewhere.
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Passer
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2014 12:47:27 PM

typo s/b

But it would take many years and in the meantime many people would needlessly lose their lives or be injured while we are "waiting".

2 "be" or not 2 "be" that was the question. The answer is 1 "be"... VBG
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Passer
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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2014 12:27:28 PM

"Change the behavior, and the guns won't matter any more."

I completely agree with that!

But it would take many years and in the meantime many people would be needlessly lose their lives or be injured while we are "waiting".

"Take away the guns, and the behavior will get just as many people killed."

I don't think "just as many" is correct. Whatever one thinks about guns, they are very efficient and much more efficient than many alternatives. That, unfortunately, is part or most of their appeal.






[Edited by: Passer at 9/13/2014 12:29:33 PM EST]
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WES03
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2014 7:55:18 AM

"Teacher accidentally shoots self in leg at school"

I wonder how many teachers were injured driving to school that day?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2014 3:16:56 AM

Passer - "So are nuclear weapons but their proliferation should not be a human right."

Isn't that a bit like arguing against bicycles because semis can carry so much more?

My point was that restrictions on guns do nothing to change the behavior, and it's the behavior, not the guns, that is the real problem.

Take away the guns, and the behavior will get just as many people killed. Change the behavior, and the guns won't matter any more.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 9/13/2014 3:19:03 AM EST]
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Passer
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2014 2:05:36 AM

"Guns are just a means."

So are nuclear weapons but their proliferation should not be a human right.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2014 1:55:13 AM

gougedQC - "maybe the problem is not guns, but a society where TV shows and Films, and "rap" videos indoctrinate society to solve their differences with guns"

Not "guns", "violence".

Guns are just a means. Violent behavior is the problem.
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gougedQC
Champion Author Montreal

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 8:58:53 PM

maybe the problem is not guns, but a society where TV shows and Films, and "rap" videos indoctrinate society to solve their differences with guns

where the slightest thing can and should be percieved as "disrespect" and dealt with in the most violent of manners...shooting

where you're taught by TV through celebrity shows, and those rap and music videos that you DESERVE to have ANYTHING you want without actually having to work and work hard for it..

where sensationalist media teaches you that if you feel small, the way to get attention is kill as many as possible ...then you'll get your name and face on tv..over and over again.

[Edited by: gougedQC at 9/12/2014 8:59:31 PM EST]
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 4:52:25 PM

Weaslespit - "Not correct. He shot and killed the initial opposition (Principle)."

The principal's only weapon was indignation.

"The Police arriving signals an event, not necessarily being faced with 'any' resistance."

So you don't think the police would be perceived as "resistance"?

"You are fabricating conclusions to fit your story..."

No, I'm just interpreting events in reality.

"So you are hoping they might have gotten a lucky shot it? That doesn't sound to reassuring."

It's more reassuring than just sitting there waiting to die. And, again, the psychology of many mass shooters seems to be focused on suicide as much as killing. Even the perception of effective resistance seems to trigger the suicide.

"The lives are going to be spent one way or the other - you cannot prevent loss of life when somebody decides to go rogue. You cannot protect against such random acts of terrorism."

No, but you can reduce the number who die. OTOH, all efforts such as gun-free zones do is increase the potential for death.

"The kids killed were from one classroom that didn't have a chance to reach cover. So now you would have to have ALL teachers armed to prevent this loss of life."

Kids were killed in two classrooms. And the loss of life could have been greatly reduced if one or more of the 8 staff in the faculty meeting that the principal was in at the start of the attack had been armed.

Again, nothing about armed teachers stopping such an attack is certain. But improving the odds could save lives.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 3:00:18 PM

"Recall that Lanza committed suicide when the police showed up. IOW, when he met with any actual, or even potential, opposition."

Not correct. He shot and killed the initial opposition (Principle).

The Police arriving signals an event, not necessarily being faced with 'any' resistance.

You are fabricating conclusions to fit your story...

"They didn't need to."

So you are hoping they might have gotten a lucky shot it? That doesn't sound to reassuring.

"In essence, you're willing to spend lives just to keep guns out of the hands of teachers."

The lives are going to be spent one way or the other - you cannot prevent loss of life when somebody decides to go rogue. You cannot protect against such random acts of terrorism.

"All that the gun-free zone accomplished was to limit their options and get more children killed."

The kids killed were from one classroom that didn't have a chance to reach cover. So now you would have to have ALL teachers armed to prevent this loss of life.

C'mon...
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:39:05 PM

Weaslespit - "Recall that one of the arguments the pro-gun side gave us is that this kid practiced given his quick magazine changes (meaning limiting magazine sizes was a moot point) and was highly proficient."

Recall that Lanza committed suicide when the police showed up. IOW, when he met with any actual, or even potential, opposition.

"I'm not willing to bet lives that any teacher would have been able to match his ability. Are you?"

They didn't need to. And the fact that the school was a gun-free zone only meant that they never had the chance in the first place.

In essence, you're willing to spend lives just to keep guns out of the hands of teachers.

"The 'best' thing that could have happened once the situation arose is what did happen - teachers following their training to secure themselves wherever they could and showing immeasurable courage/selflessness to protect the kids."

That's only the "'best' thing" in the environment of a gun-free zone. All that the gun-free zone accomplished was to limit their options and get more children killed.
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teacher_tim
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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:33:36 PM

Did you read the rest of the linked article weasle? The author talks about his experiences with coeds armed with mace. Not that I want ANYONE who is impaired to have a firearm, mind you.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:30:28 PM

"Once the victim stopped the vehicle to let the rider out, the man pulled out a can of mace and sprayed the driver in the face, the report shows. Then, fearing for his safety, the driver retrieved a handgun and shot once at the robber, the report shows.

The robber jumped out of the vehicle and feld on foot; meanwhile, the victim cleared the mace from his eyes, drove to a safer area and called police, the report shows.

Officers located the unidentified offender in the front yard of the listed address, and he was dead as a result of a gunshot wound."

Meaning the driver got a lucky shot at point blank range...

Pepper spray wasn't the problem here.

"It doesn’t remotely provide them with a defensive mindset, and may instead create a more dangerous overconfidence of their actual ability to deal with a threat."

A nice, wholly unsubstantiated opinion. People I know who carry pepper spray are typically far, far more aware of their surroundings than those that don't...
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:26:33 PM

"Just imagine how many lives could have been saved if someone had been able to shoot back at Lanza, possibly prompting an even earlier suicide, rather than just sitting there waiting to be murdered."

Recall that one of the arguments the pro-gun side gave us is that this kid practiced given his quick magazine changes (meaning limiting magazine sizes was a moot point) and was highly proficient.

I'm not willing to bet lives that any teacher would have been able to match his ability. Are you?

The 'best' thing that could have happened once the situation arose is what did happen - teachers following their training to secure themselves wherever they could and showing immeasurable courage/selflessness to protect the kids.

"possibly prompting an even earlier suicide"

What-if scenarios are a dime a dozen...
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teacher_tim
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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:06:48 PM

"Gun control supporters claim that you don’t actually need a gun for self-defense. They claim that pepper spray, mace, or even insect sprays are all you really need.

This (alleged) Huntsville, Alabama robber thought that he’d try that advice in his life of crime. His toe tag suggests that it didn’t work too well.

A man possibly involved in a robbery was killed after being shot by his robbery target, police said.

Officers responded to a call at 3:10 a.m. on Sunday at 2811 Turf Ave. N.W. and made contact with a man claiming to be a robbery victim, the report shows. The victim, told officers he gave an unknown man a ride from the Chevron at 2605 University Drive to Northwood Housing Project.

Once the victim stopped the vehicle to let the rider out, the man pulled out a can of mace and sprayed the driver in the face, the report shows. Then, fearing for his safety, the driver retrieved a handgun and shot once at the robber, the report shows.

The robber jumped out of the vehicle and feld on foot; meanwhile, the victim cleared the mace from his eyes, drove to a safer area and called police, the report shows.

Officers located the unidentified offender in the front yard of the listed address, and he was dead as a result of a gunshot wound.

* * *

People who suggest that chemical sprays should be used for self-defense are asking you to stake your life on a temporary irritant that only affects most people, most of the time, and that works only if the person being sprayed decides to stop their aggression.

There are countless stories told in law enforcement circles of people who were drunk or on drugs walking right through a stream of pepper spray or mace to carry out physical attacks on officers, seemingly unaffected by the spray. Others only seemed to begin feeling the effects after a delayed reaction to have a delayed reaction.

Chemical sprays don’t keep aggressors from strangling, stabbing, or striking their victims, because they are only an irritant.

They do not cause lasting physical damage.

Are chemical sprays are better than being completely defenseless? I’d have to give an answer of a conditional “yes.” After all, Seattle Pacific University hero Jon Meis used pepper spray to help stop a university shooter while the gunman was attempting to reload his weapon. Meis, however, didn’t prevail because he had pepper spray. Meis prevailed because he was a gun owner and carried with him a defensive mindset that is more important than any tool.

The problem with pepper spray is that those who advocate its use and who carry it as their only or primary self-defense weapon tend to view it as something of a talisman. They seem to think that merely owning a chemical irritant somehow makes them safer. It doesn’t remotely provide them with a defensive mindset, and may instead create a more dangerous overconfidence of their actual ability to deal with a threat."
link to source
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:06:28 PM

Weaslespit - "Just imagine how many more opportunities for unintentional discharges could present themselves should this practice becomes mainstream."

Just imagine how many lives could have been saved if someone had been able to shoot back at Lanza, possibly prompting an even earlier suicide, rather than just sitting there waiting to be murdered.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 11:38:43 AM

If somebody had just used the toilet, even for a few good farts, it may have been full of methane, you know, the gas that causes "floaters". LOL!
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 10:49:14 AM

Wow I wonder just what kind of toilets they have in that school - you know the ones that the news article says explode?

Now parents be sure to ask your school board if they have any of them exploding toilets ---- we wouldnt want anyone hurt by one of them.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 10:01:04 AM

"So you've got one incident in 13 years. Wow!"

Just imagine how many more opportunities for unintentional discharges could present themselves should this practice becomes mainstream.

If a cop giving a gun safety demonstration at a school can't prevent an accidental discharge... (I laugh every time I see that video - but only because he wasn't seriously injured ;) )
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2014 1:31:26 AM

MiddletownMarty - "Teacher accidentally shoots self in leg at school"

So you've got one incident in 13 years. Wow!
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