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Author Topic: The NRA's idea does not work. Back to Topics
Michiganian

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Michigan

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2012 4:11:46 PM

Just ask the survivors at Columbine HS, Fort Hood and Virginia Tech.
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 1:06:25 AM

.
< Cirdan: "I stand corrected. Apparently he did have guns in the car. A sawed off shotgun and two pistols." >

. WHERE did you see he was found to have guns this second time? I haven't seen that...

. Picture of his Bible:

[L=http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/text deleted Bible of Christian Religious Terrorist +[/L]
.
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 12:56:28 AM

I stand corrected. Apparently he did have guns in the car. A sawed off shotgun and two pistols.
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 12:43:27 AM

.
< Cirdan: "They mentioned the weapons he had. A machete and a couple of tomahawks. You really think they wouldn't have mentioned a gun if there was one in the car? " >

. This is the SECOND time this same Christian Religious Terrorist has been stopped... first time was back in July when they took his ELEVEN guns... second time was this past weekend when he had 800 rounds of ammo and possibly a second Christian Religious Terrorist ACCOMPLICE who might have been going to toss him a weapon and ammo once he got over the fence... but got scared off... or maybe he stashed a gun somewheres on the White House grounds or in the bldg. and it hasn't been found or mentioned yet...
.
.

[Edited by: BuzzLOL at 9/23/2014 12:45:08 AM EST]
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Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2014 12:17:14 AM

They mentioned the weapons he had. A machete and a couple of tomahawks. You really think they wouldn't have mentioned a gun if there was one in the car?
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 7:30:53 PM

.
. Correction: The Christian Religious Terrorist caught in the White House had ELEVEN guns in his car in July... (not just 5 as I said below)
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 7:15:05 PM

.
. My conversations with gun 'birthers'. Here's the actual discussion from another site:


+ Teacher Freaks Out Because Student Writes Story about Shooting a Dinosaur +

You received 7 replies | TheRightToBear.com

BuzzLOL | Monday, Sept. 22nd | View on TheRightToBear.com

. Whole story is this student put in writing he was going to shoot a Barney the Dinosaur action figure and its owner... intolerable...

b4k9zp replied | Monday, Sept. 22nd | View on TheRightToBear.com

What's wrong about that? Nothing. A fictional extinct animal is nothing to get worked up about.

BuzzLOL | Sunday, Sept. 21st | View on TheRightToBear.com

. So you're an evil gun 'birther' who claims Sandy Hook School shooting didn't happen... you give us law abiding gun owners a bad name... thanks for identifying yourself ...

b4k9zp replied | Monday, Sept. 22nd | View on TheRightToBear.com

Doubtful that you know anything about gun ownership. There is plenty of evidence to show that the alleged sandy hook massacre was an anti-gun crusade based on a FEMA "drill ...
________________________________________________________________
. And those weren't the worse ones...
.
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 7:09:23 PM

.
< FlyBoy: "Marty can you show one single story that says he had a firearm in the vehicle that would shoot the 800 rounds of ammo?" >v

. That same Christian Religious Terrorist was previously arrested in July and his 5 guns confiscated...
.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 6:41:23 PM

If there isn't a gun to obsess about, then obsess about the ammo.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 6:08:09 PM

Marty can you show one single story that says he had a firearm in the vehicle that would shoot the 800 rounds of ammo?

Why are you concentrating one the big bad scary 800 rounds of ammo? Why not be concerned about the combat knife he had with a vicious blade of three inches long that he actually tried to get in the WH? What the heck Marty he might have attacked anyone with that obvious assault knife.

You aren't saying anything about him stalking around with a weapon of war. One of them there assault hatchets.

Why just concentrate on ammo that you have no idea if he could have shot?

Oh yeah I know - cause it fits your strange meme of ban the gun.....
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 6:02:17 PM

"They make a big deal about his having 800 rounds of ammo but dont say anything about a gun capable of firing the ammo. What was he going to do throw the stuff at folks?"

Right. Lots of people carry 800 rounds of ammo for a gun they don't have. I met 4 of them just yesterday.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 5:22:07 PM

Weaslespit - "I don't think that is what is meant by my saying 'increased odds'."

So his having access to a gun "increased the odds" that he would kill his family in what way, exactly?

Bearing in mind that there's no evidence that any gun control law anywhere at any time has had any significant effect on total violent death rates.

"How can you do more damage than killing somebody?"

Killing more somebodies.

"And no, you can defend yourself against any of those other weapons you listed much easier than a gun - which is why it is the preferred weapon of choice by the military - hard to defend against a bullet..."

Most police are trained to not let anyone with a knife get closer than 21 feet before firing. That's because most people can stab you from 20 feet away before you can draw, aim and fire.

Whether or not you can defend yourself against a club depends a lot on relative size and strength. In this case, he killed his daughter and six children under the age of 12. I haven't seen many 11-year-olds who can defend themselves against a grown man who has any kind of weapon.

And fire isn't any easier to 'defend' against than a gun.

"Which again depends on the variables of any given scenario."

If you mean how much it improves your odds, I agree.

"When I keep seeing both terms used both in the media and on these kinds of sites, it makes it hard to be PC with so much negative reinforcement."

Just points out the level of ignorance there is on the subject. Not that that makes this subject much different from many others.

"Pot, yes. Cocaine? Heroin? Nay - which is more comparable to illegal gun sales."

Banning cocaine and heroin hasn't done anything but increase the availability of often hazardous forms of both drugs. If cocaine and heroin were legal and regulated, there'd be a lot fewer overdose deaths and deaths from impurities.

"When could they have been? 1800's protecting against Indians?"

Basically, anytime up until we started getting paranoid about guns. That varies with region, since the East went paranoid a lot earlier than other parts of the country.

"If the victim dies, the trauma belongs to those left behind. If the victim lives, the trauma belongs to the victim, those close to the victim and potentially the shooter as well as those close to the shooter, if it is an unintended discharge of some kind. Trauma is trauma, splitting hairs quantifying which is more-so only serves to demean those experiencing the one graded as being the lesser."

Sounds a bit like saying it's better to let a dozen people die, as long as we reduce the incidence of unintended discharges by keeping guns out of schools.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 4:21:57 PM

"So you think that having a gun was his reason for killing his family?"

I don't think that is what is meant by my saying 'increased odds'.

"As for the odds, he could have done just as much, or more, damage just about as quickly with a knife, a club or fire, as many examples show."

How can you do more damage than killing somebody? And no, you can defend yourself against any of those other weapons you listed much easier than a gun - which is why it is the preferred weapon of choice by the military - hard to defend against a bullet...

"A gun is not the only way to improve the odds, true, but having a gun will usually improve your odds."

Which again depends on the variables of any given scenario.

"Not surprising, given how confused most people are about the terminology."

When I keep seeing both terms used both in the media and on these kinds of sites, it makes it hard to be PC with so much negative reinforcement.

"If that's what was being proposed, perhaps. I think they should be required to get training first. At least qualify for a CHL."

I sure hope so! LEO's have a hard enough time using their weapons correctly and safely 100% of the time...

"Sure, which is one reason why pot should be legal. But you're trying to make guns less available, which only increases the incentive for illegal sales. And causes "illegal contacts" to proliferate."

Pot, yes. Cocaine? Heroin? Nay - which is more comparable to illegal gun sales. Shutting down illegal contacts is what LEO's do - regardless of what the item is (stolen goods, illegal weapons, drugs, pirated DVD's etc).

"Again, the most effective measure appears to have been forgetting to remove a piece of black construction paper, which made the shooter think that classroom was empty."

Agreed. Additionally, I know local schools are looking at making the entry to the schools more secure. For example you currently walk into the school and go to the office to sign-in. New set-up would be a vestibule of some type that doesn't yet allow full access to the school but requires the visitor to pass through to gain admittance after signing-in. This would be much easier to secure from the early stages of a confrontation instead of immediate school-wide access.

"Yet we've disarmed teachers, to no good result....No, just that they could have been, if they saw the need."

When could they have been? 1800's protecting against Indians?

"True, but which is more so?"

If the victim dies, the trauma belongs to those left behind. If the victim lives, the trauma belongs to the victim, those close to the victim and potentially the shooter as well as those close to the shooter, if it is an unintended discharge of some kind. Trauma is trauma, splitting hairs quantifying which is more-so only serves to demean those experiencing the one graded as being the lesser.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 4:08:42 PM

Les see here now ----

They make a big deal about his having 800 rounds of ammo but dont say anything about a gun capable of firing the ammo. What was he going to do throw the stuff at folks?

But Marty by all means we need to stop people from carrying knives like he had when he invaded the WH - or was it he was just immigrating to the WH.....

Then to make it even worse we have to somehow confiscate all them evil hatchets or tomahawks (you know that evil weapon of them indians and 17th century rabble in arms) or whatever he had while taking a previous stroll around the WH.....

Anything to get in a jab against your bugaboo evil gun I guess Marty.

Hey I bet he even had a tire iron in that car too. Whatcha gonna do aout them weapons Marty?
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 3:34:20 PM

White House fence jumper had 800 rounds ammunition in car


"The man who scaled the fence and ran into the White House on Friday night had more than 800 rounds of ammunition in his car and had been arrested in July with a sniper rifle and a map marking the executive mansion, a federal prosecutor said on Monday."

M0rE gUnZ 4 eVeRyOnE!
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 2:36:59 AM

.
< rjhenn: ""Pray tell, when were gun-packimg teachers in the classroom the norm?" " >

. Back when Indians were on the warpath...
.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2014 1:35:58 AM

rumbleseat - "Disarmed? That implies they were armed in the past."

No, just that they could have been, if they saw the need.

"Pray tell, when were gun-packimg teachers in the classroom the norm?"

You mean, when there wasn't any need for them? When schools weren't openly declared as prime targets?

"That slso sounds like a call for all sales, private and dealer, in all states, going through the same background checks and documentation."

Which would accomplish exactly as much as banning all sales of certain drugs has.

Nothing good at all.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 21, 2014 4:26:37 PM

Marty - did yo read the linked article? The guy pushing it si from Seattle - a liberal hotbed for certain....

Anyhow I thought you would get a chuckle out of it....

Have a good day ----
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 21, 2014 4:19:21 PM

What do you expect from a university (even a Christian one) situated in Wacko, Texas?
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 21, 2014 3:48:42 PM

Hey Marty - your gonna love this one. Doggone students - where do they get those crazy ideas anyway...
.
.
>>>The Baylor University Student Senate has approved concealed carry of handguns on campus "for students, faculty, staff and guests who hold concealed handgun licenses."
.
.
Our whole purpose...[with] this bill was to increase safety on campus, and the best way to do that, as we see it, is to allow concealed carry. Regardless of how great our police department is, which it is a very highly ranked and well-respected police department, they can't protect us in a situation where there's a shooter in a classroom and the door's locked.<<<<snicker - chuckle - kinda laugh out loud too
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 20, 2014 5:06:02 PM

By the way Marty - fun discussion today...

Again you dodge the question asked. According to you the seller is responsible for the actions of the purchaser. Now is that just guns or is it everything - be consistent on your answer now.

No I do not agree that the law needs to be changed at all. I beleie we need to hold people responsible for what they do. If they misuse a tool then it is their fault and they should be punished for the misuse that resulted in harm to another. But the idea of holding the person who sold the tool guilty is not correct.

Do you widh to hold the store clerk who sold the ammunition used guilty too? How about teh store owner who was not even involved in the transaction - but his store had the ammo? Will yo go so far as to the distributor who sold the ammo and the truck driver who trucked the ammo from the distributor to the store? HOw about the company who actuall assembled the components into ammo? The company that made the powder that was sold to the company who assembled the components? Will you also try to jail the miner who mined and smelted the lead ore? No Marty the only one responsible for the shooting is the person who did the shooting.

As far as guns being made to kill people. Interesting idea to put it mildly. I have owned one firearm that was specifically made to be used by the military. It was a 45 ACP handgun that was modified to be a target pistol. The rest of the firearms I have constructed or owned were all specifically made for target shooting or hunting of animals and birds. I think your idea is kind of strange Marty. I cant think of any weapon at all in the history of man that was not used somehow to kill people. Like I said Marty - hold responsible the person who actually fired the shot and not all these others you seems to want to blame. Try something new - hold the shooter responsible for their actions.

As far as Chicago and similar places. Yes if someone is knowingly selling things that they know are against the law - hold them responsible for it. Breaking the law of selling things they shouldnt sell. But dont even try to hold them responsible for what a second or third or more party does with what they illegally sold.

As an example of where I'm going with this. Person A buys a case of beer from a local store and brings it home. Person B swipes the beer from Persons A basement. Person C helps drink it and then gets in their car to drive home and has an accident and kills himself plus other innocent folks. So who is ultimately responsible for the innocent folks getting killed. You seem to want to blame the store clerk and the Person A who did nothing wrong.

Now Person B is guilty of theft (of the beer) but he didnt force Person C to drink it or drive drunk did he? So why would you try and blame him for the deaths.

No Marty no one is responsible for the actions of another - we are all accountable for our own actions only.
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 20, 2014 4:31:13 PM

"You are saying that the person who sold the gun should be held accountable for the actions of the new owner."

If the person who sold the gun sold it to a new owner who should not legally own a gun, then yes, the new owner is accountable. In the absence of background checks for private sales, there is no way of telling whether the new owner can legally possess a gun which is why the law needs to be changed.

Where do you think all those guns in Chicago (the city you so love to cite for all the gun deaths there) come from anyway? The gun fairy?




"Neither are guns manufactured specifically for killing in an illegal manner."

I said nothing about legal or illegal in that context. I said guns are manufactured specifically for killing, and I stand by it. (And we are talking about people, not deer or swine.)




"I have a rather novel idea Marty - once - just once -- try and hold the person who actually committed the crime - you know the guy who actually fired the shot - guilty of committing the crime."

Hold everyone responsible who is responsible.



[Edited by: MiddletownMarty at 9/20/2014 4:33:04 PM EST]
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 20, 2014 4:14:16 PM

The car is registered yearly, tax paid on it yearly (some states), inspected (most states), comes standard with a lock and key, comes standard with tons of active sensor controlled safety features, then the way you operate it, speed you run at and how you park it are constantly scrutinized by the police.
All that and they are still far more dangerous than guns.

Only an idiot would believe that gun registration or passing more pointless laws that (wont be enforced anyways) only affects law abiding people will make guns safer.

[Edited by: oilpan4 at 9/20/2014 4:16:33 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 11:04:22 PM

The principle is exactly the same - we are not discussing if the car is registered or not - that is not germane to the point I was making - which you conveniently dodged again. The point being - is the seller of the car somehow guilty if the new owner breaks a ton of laws and kills someone using the car in an illegal manner?

You are saying that the person who sold the gun should be held accountable for the actions of the new owner. He has zero responsibility for what someone else does with a tool he sold.

Right now there are folks who want to hold ammunition manufacturers or sellers responsible for what some person does at some future time with a product they made and sold. That is really wrong as far as I see it. Using that principle any manufacturer or seller of anything is supposedly responsible for what anyone who purchases their product uses it for. Just how far out can you get?

Neither are guns manufactured specifically for killing in an illegal manner. I used to build precision rifles that were specifically made to put the bullet holes as close to each other as possible at very long ranges. They were made to be beautiful (as in a work of art) and to be a precision tool. If someone who bought one from me were to use it at some time in the future to shoot a deer out of season am I somehow responsible for it??
Should the company who made the frying pan he used to fry up one of the chops be equally guilty of killing a deer out of season?

I have a rather novel idea Marty - once - just once -- try and hold the person who actually committed the crime - you know the guy who actually fired the shot - guilty of committing the crime.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 10:56:40 PM

"cars aren't specifically manufactured for the purpose of killing."

Guns hugely out number cars, yet cars kill far more people every year than guns.

"Lol, gotta love sensational claims! 'Billions'! The only problem there is that a gun owner can only use one gun at a time ;)"

I got those figures from some foaming at the mouth liberal anti gun news story.
They also went on to claim that the largest concentration of weaponry on earth is found with in the united states.
Aside from all the anti gun nonsense I liked the article.

It was a single half billion guns, not multiple billions. It will be multiple billions some day, but not any time soon.
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 7:10:20 PM

"The person broke no law that we know of unless there are some special ones where he lived."

I know that. The law needs to be changed.




"Will yo say the same thing about the guy who sold his car in the classified ads to someone who later drove drunk and killed someone?"

If the registration and title weren't transferred properly, yes. Of course, the great flaw in your analogy is that cars aren't specifically manufactured for the purpose of killing.





[Edited by: MiddletownMarty at 9/19/2014 7:11:43 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 6:25:12 PM

"Let's find the nit who privately sold Spirit the gun and hold him responsible for his part in the deaths of 8 people. "

Totally illogical once more there Marty. The person broke no law that we know of unless there are some special ones where he lived. Will yo say the same thing about the guy who sold his car in the classified ads to someone who later drove drunk and killed someone?
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 5:24:25 PM

"Yet we've disarmed teachers, to no good result."

Disarmed? That implies they were armed in the past.
Pray tell, when were gun-packimg teachers in the classroom the norm?

" Let's find the nit who privately sold Spirit the gun and hold him responsible for his part in the deaths of 8 people."

That slso sounds like a call for all sales, private and dealer, in all states, going through the same background checks and documentation.

[Edited by: rumbleseat at 9/19/2014 5:30:12 PM EST]
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 4:56:44 PM

Who is concerned about the nations national sickness- The loss of confidence of our young people that the country is at their backs to support them!!

Who is concerned that we are losing a generation of kids loyal to our country and their confidence in and to our country? The NRA is!

Check out their Ad.

Who else has voiced this concern?
Is this a national sickness. I think the NRA is right on target!

Should they doubt that they have the country at their backs?
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 4:29:33 PM

"Well Marty ---- you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. However I rather strongly disagree with you."

Yes, I am entitled to my opinion, as you are to yours. That you or others disagree will not deter me from expressing my opinion.




"Until we start to hold people accountable for their actions and dispense justice in a timely manner the problem of misuse of tools or the injuring of others because we just dont care will not be solved."

Fine. Let's find the nit who privately sold Spirit the gun and hold him responsible for his part in the deaths of 8 people. That person would be so easy to find if only all guns were registered as we register cars.




"And do you really believe that the only reason Spirit killed his family was because he had a gun?"

Those who might know the reason Spirit killed his family are all dead. Nevertheless, Spirit used a gun despite having other tools (knives, tree limbs, baseball bats, sharpened pencils, bare hands) available that could have been used to dispatch his relatives.



[Edited by: MiddletownMarty at 9/19/2014 4:30:57 PM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 4:18:47 PM

Weaslespit - "It certainly increased the odds ;)"

So you think that having a gun was his reason for killing his family?

As for the odds, he could have done just as much, or more, damage just about as quickly with a knife, a club or fire, as many examples show.

"Yes - you don't need a gun to increase your odds of survival."

A gun is not the only way to improve the odds, true, but having a gun will usually improve your odds.

"Thanks - for some reason I keep confusing the two."

Not surprising, given how confused most people are about the terminology.

"Which I believe can also be said for randomly arming a few teachers in a school."

If that's what was being proposed, perhaps. I think they should be required to get training first. At least qualify for a CHL.

"It is harder to purchase something illegally than legally - especially if enforced. If marijuana were available at a CVS, don't you think that purchase would be easier than having to cultivate illegal contacts?"

Sure, which is one reason why pot should be legal. But you're trying to make guns less available, which only increases the incentive for illegal sales. And causes "illegal contacts" to proliferate.

"There is always a protective adult with the children ensuring that they shelter in place as safely as possible. This was exemplified quite well at Sandy Hook as the loss of life could have been much, much higher. The entire Staff deserves high accolades for their performance - especially those who laid down their lives to protect the kids."

Again, the most effective measure appears to have been forgetting to remove a piece of black construction paper, which made the shooter think that classroom was empty.

"Which can also be said of randomly arming teachers."

Yet we've disarmed teachers, to no good result.

"Both are traumatizing and could be tragic."

True, but which is more so?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 4:00:09 PM

"A piece of black construction paper was apparently more effective."

Yes - you don't need a gun to increase your odds of survival.

"That would be assault weapons, since "assault rifle" is a technical term for a certain type of military automatic weapon."

Thanks - for some reason I keep confusing the two.

"And thinking that any of those measures would make a significant difference is just wishful thinking."

Which I believe can also be said for randomly arming a few teachers in a school.

"The whole concept simply creates more incentive for illegal sales."

It is harder to purchase something illegally than legally - especially if enforced. If marijuana were available at a CVS, don't you think that purchase would be easier than having to cultivate illegal contacts?

"If there is no "protective teacher" to begin with, who's going to look out for the teacher AND the children under her guard?"

There is always a protective adult with the children ensuring that they shelter in place as safely as possible. This was exemplified quite well at Sandy Hook as the loss of life could have been much, much higher. The entire Staff deserves high accolades for their performance - especially those who laid down their lives to protect the kids.

"We need to look deeper than "guns are evil" if we're going to even partially solve the problem."

I don't necessarily disagree with that in principle.

"But all increased gun restrictions appear to be of the "Do something, anything, just so it looks like we're doing something" variety."

Which can also be said of randomly arming teachers.

"The damage from a deranged gunman ambushing a school is also much greater than the damage from a typical unintentional discharge."

Both are traumatizing and could be tragic.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 3:52:00 PM

"And do you really believe that the only reason Spirit killed his family was because he had a gun?"

It certainly increased the odds ;)
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 3:51:09 PM

"I'm surprised at you. He said "a half billion", not "billions"."

Hey, I was just making my own sensational comment ;)
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 3:46:03 PM

Well Marty ---- you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. However I rather strongly disagree with you.

I have owned firearms for probably 50 plus years. I have only had one fire when I did not want it to fire. That was because of a mechanical malfunction caused by excessive wear on internal parts - it was a competition handgun that probably had in excess of 50,000 shots fired from it. I promptly rebuilt it and repaired the problem. The unintentional shot did no damage as I had the gun pointed in a safe place.

What I am trying to say Marty is that the firearm is not the problem nor are the laws the problem. The problem are the people who wish to misuse the tool (firearm) or just dont care what harm they do. Until we start to hold people accountable for their actions and dispense justice in a timely manner the problem of misuse of tools or the injuring of others because we just dont care will not be solved. Every place it has been implemented - swift and sure punishment for misdeeds has worked. If we hold people responsible - they will tend to act responsibly.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 3:44:23 PM

Weaslespit - "Lol, gotta love sensational claims! 'Billions'!"

I'm surprised at you. He said "a half billion", not "billions".

Though even a half billion might be inflating things a bit. The highest estimate I've seen was "about 350 million".
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 3:38:39 PM

MiddletownMarty - "You mean the laws with loopholes that allow private sales of guns without documentation, which loopholes the NRA is opposed to closing? Those laws?"

Much like the laws with loopholes that allow private sales of drugs without documentation?

Oh, wait, there aren't any such loopholes, yet the illegal drug trade is booming.

So why do you think that closing those supposed loopholes would make any actual difference? Or don't results matter, as long as you can say that you're "doing something about gun violence"?

That's the problem I have with groups such as Americans for Responsible Solutions (Gabby Gifford's group). They're obsessed with gun violence, as if the violence wouldn't occur if we took the guns away. Totally irrational.

"Mr. Spirit got his gun from some responsible gun owner."

Yet another baseless assumption.

And do you really believe that the only reason Spirit killed his family was because he had a gun?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 3:31:27 PM

Weaslespit - "Which is why the Teachers blocked the doors from opening to the rooms they were taking cover in."

A piece of black construction paper was apparently more effective.

"Which is the same argument for limiting magazine capacity, eliminating assault rifles (or assault weapons - I forget which term fly wants me to use to remain PC), etc..."

That would be assault weapons, since "assault rifle" is a technical term for a certain type of military automatic weapon.

And thinking that any of those measures would make a significant difference is just wishful thinking.

"Is there one identified, as is the gun-show loop-hole? Post it here and I'll let you know if it should be closed..."

The whole concept simply creates more incentive for illegal sales.

"Very possibly! It could embolden them to take a risk that they otherwise should not be taking. Once the protective teacher is eliminated, who is to look out for the children under her guard?"

If there is no "protective teacher" to begin with, who's going to look out for the teacher AND the children under her guard?

"Which measures are you referring to, again? Just to be clear."

Gun-free school zones, primarily. But all increased gun restrictions appear to be of the "Do something, anything, just so it looks like we're doing something" variety. We need to look deeper than "guns are evil" if we're going to even partially solve the problem.

"The odds of an unintentional discharge injuring somebody are already greater than the odds of a deranged gunman ambushing a school. Adding guns to that equation only serves to further push the odds of an unintentional discharge higher. If fully trained instructors and police officers have it happen to them..."

The damage from a deranged gunman ambushing a school is also much greater than the damage from a typical unintentional discharge. Again, those same arguments apply to a lot of things that (almost) nobody wants further restrictions on.
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MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 3:17:16 PM

"Yep Marty - gotta love those gun control laws that have been shown again and again and again to not work."

You mean the laws with loopholes that allow private sales of guns without documentation, which loopholes the NRA is opposed to closing? Those laws? Mr. Spirit got his gun from some responsible gun owner. I wouldn't mind seeing the guy who sold the gun to Spirit held equally responsible for the deaths of those 8 individuals. It would be the responsible thing to do.


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SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 2:41:31 PM

"The only problem there is that a gun owner can only use one gun at a time"

WRONG
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 2:37:03 PM

"Like having doors that only lock from the outside, so kids can't lock themselves in the room?"

Which is why the Teachers blocked the doors from opening to the rooms they were taking cover in.

"Again, nothing is certain. Just improving the odds."

Which is the same argument for limiting magazine capacity, eliminating assault rifles (or assault weapons - I forget which term fly wants me to use to remain PC), etc...

"So what loop-hole do we shut for the illegal drug dealing that all of our efforts have only caused to increase?"

Is there one identified, as is the gun-show loop-hole? Post it here and I'll let you know if it should be closed...

"Which, again, is an argument for improving the odds."

See above ;)

"Are you saying that someone with a handgun is worse off against someone with an AR-15 than someone with no weapon all?"

Very possibly! It could embolden them to take a risk that they otherwise should not be taking. Once the protective teacher is eliminated, who is to look out for the children under her guard?

"So far, it appears that the measures you favor only make things worse. Mine might involve a trade-off, but the net effect would likely be positive."

Which measures are you referring to, again? Just to be clear.

"Mine might involve a trade-off, but the net effect would likely be positive."

Depends on which crystal ball you look into.

"So let people get killed to avoid a few others being injured?"

The odds of an unintentional discharge injuring somebody are already greater than the odds of a deranged gunman ambushing a school. Adding guns to that equation only serves to further push the odds of an unintentional discharge higher. If fully trained instructors and police officers have it happen to them...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 2:28:14 PM

"Not really. Over 100 million gun owners and a half billion guns and you only have thousands.
Clearly numbers are not on your side."

Lol, gotta love sensational claims! 'Billions'! The only problem there is that a gun owner can only use one gun at a time ;)

If thousands of friendly fire and near-miss incidents don't give you pause to see that it isn't just the 'dumbest of the dumb' who are the victims, consider this your wake-up call!

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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 2:22:18 PM

" Thousands... Kinda scary if you think about it too much."

Not really. Over 100 million gun owners and a half billion guns and you only have thousands.
Clearly numbers are not on your side.

"So what loop-hole do we shut for the illegal drug dealing that all of our efforts have only caused to increase?"

Exactly. Closing the "gun show loop hole" will stop the flow of guns to criminals about as well as making a drug illegal or reclassing one as a controlled substance keeps the drugs away from pill poppers and crack heads.

[Edited by: oilpan4 at 9/19/2014 2:25:34 PM EST]
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 2:16:19 PM

They are so alike, easy to confuse.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 1:12:49 PM

oilpan4 = "Gotta love those articles steve posts"

Don't you mean Marty?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 1:11:24 PM

Weaslespit - "Quite the opposite - locking them away so the assailant cannot get to them. Standard security practice."

Like having doors that only lock from the outside, so kids can't lock themselves in the room?

"Which still doesn't prevent the loss of life in said event - and possibly might not even have 'any' positive impact."

Again, nothing is certain. Just improving the odds.

"Perhaps - but isn't it just a matter of time? A loop-hole is a loop-hole, no?"

So what loop-hole do we shut for the illegal drug dealing that all of our efforts have only caused to increase?

"When you are subject to an ambush, there will always be casualties, regardless of how prepared you are (I refer you to the annals of war which exemplify this to a 't'). That is the nature of an ambush..."

Which, again, is an argument for improving the odds.

"Point defense is even less-likely to be effective - are you suggesting somebody with a pistol engages somebody with an AR-15?"

Are you saying that someone with a handgun is worse off against someone with an AR-15 than someone with no weapon all?

"You seem to be in favor of improving the odds of innocents being hurt as well. The measured I am in favor of could prevent the incident entirely."

So far, it appears that the measures you favor only make things worse. Mine might involve a trade-off, but the net effect would likely be positive.

"Is being shot not bad enough? It has to result in a death for it to register as not being palatable? You can survive a gunshot wound and still be maimed, disfigured, etc..."

So let people get killed to avoid a few others being injured?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 10:27:25 AM

Gotta love those articles steve posts where he finds the dumbest, most irresponsible criminals in the country and tries to make them out to be representative the 100 million plus gun owners who are legally allowed to own a firearm and don't accidently kill some one or murder their entire family day after day, decade after decade."

Isn't it amazing though how many of these stories there are out there, how readily available they are to find? Thousands... Kinda scary if you think about it too much.

Any responsible gun owner can do something stupid by making one single bad decision - ie letting a 9 year-old girl shoot a Uzi.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 10:24:44 AM

"So you're saying that current SOP is more likely to get people killed, by bottling them up where the killer can easily get to them?"

Quite the opposite - locking them away so the assailant cannot get to them. Standard security practice.

"Except that there would be more of them, and their locations would be less predictable."

Which still doesn't prevent the loss of life in said event - and possibly might not even have 'any' positive impact.

"Perhaps, but none of the incidents had anything to do with any "gun show loophole"."

Perhaps - but isn't it just a matter of time? A loop-hole is a loop-hole, no?

"Yeah, that worked so well for those in the first two classrooms."

When you are subject to an ambush, there will always be casualties, regardless of how prepared you are (I refer you to the annals of war which exemplify this to a 't'). That is the nature of an ambush...

"Not "hunt down". Point defense. And "get lucky" is just another way of saying "improve the odds"."

Point defense is even less-likely to be effective - are you suggesting somebody with a pistol engages somebody with an AR-15? At least if they went on the 'hunt' they could get the drop on the intrude (although leaving their charges unprotected).

"But you can improve the odds. The measures you seem to favor don't appear to do anything but improve the shooter's odds of killing more people."

You seem to be in favor of improving the odds of innocents being hurt as well. The measured I am in favor of could prevent the incident entirely.

"But not nearly as likely to get even one person killed, not to mention many people killed."

Is being shot not bad enough? It has to result in a death for it to register as not being palatable? You can survive a gunshot wound and still be maimed, disfigured, etc...
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 1:37:10 AM

"It hit the concrete floor and discharged,"

I am pretty sure no one builds or imports guns that cant pass a simple drop test any more.
What are the chances no drugs or alcohol were involved.

"Your concept of a responsible gun owner is similar to calling a pedophile teacher caught in the act as a "responsible" teacher. "

About like saying a responsible vehicle owner with no insurance got behind the wheel black out drunk and killed some one or some family doing 100+ in a 30mph zone.

Gotta love those articles steve posts where he finds the dumbest, most irresponsible criminals in the country and tries to make them out to be representative the 100 million plus gun owners who are legally allowed to own a firearm and don't accidently kill some one or murder their entire family day after day, decade after decade.

There were obviously countless warning signs from this guy. Already a felon when he accidently killed his son and only got 3 years!? WFT!?!?!
In what reality does that add up to only 3 years?
The real morons are the ones running our legal system.
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BuzzLOL
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 1:10:13 AM

.
"building your own AR-15 makes a lot of sense in the current political climate. Today I’m going to tell you why, and give you some resources to make it happen."

Current Gun Control Push

"The current gun control push is mostly about “assault weapons”, the erroneous term politicians use to demonize semiautomatic rifles like the AR-15. Again, how successful the politicians will be is yet to be determined, but make no mistake, they do not want us armed and will not give up their agenda easily."

"Their game plan is to, at minimum, ban these types of weapons, preventing anyone from legally purchasing one in the future, and then to force everyone who currently owns one to register it. And, as everyone who has studied the history of gun control knows, registration has always led to confiscation."

+ Legally Build an Unregistered, Off-the-Books AR-15 +
.

[Edited by: BuzzLOL at 9/19/2014 1:13:05 AM EST]
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2014 12:34:59 AM

MiddletownMarty - "Gotta love those no-paper-trail, private gun sales."

Is that anything like those no-paper-trail, private drug sales?
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