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Author Topic: The NRA's idea does not work. Back to Topics
Michiganian
Champion Author
Michigan

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2012 4:11:46 PM

Just ask the survivors at Columbine HS, Fort Hood and Virginia Tech.
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 5:18:11 PM

"I don't like posting from a tablet."

Tablets suck. Give me a keyboard anytime.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 4:57:03 PM

The end of my last post:

instead of the root causes of violence we're not going to make much progress.

I don't like posting from a tablet.
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 11:44:07 AM

" Illinois has lax gun laws "

They are now absolutely delusional.
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 11:25:00 AM

Can semi auto guns be fired as fast as a full auto machine gun? Watch the video and let us know what you think....
.
.
This might get interesting for sure. It looks like the laws concerning full auto vs semi auto are kinda obsolete wouldnt you say....
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 8:45:27 AM

"Stop and Frisk was awful."

As a lawyer, I thought stop and frisk (without probable cause) was a violation of the 4th Amendment. As a citizen vacationing in a big city, I thought it made me secure.

What was that quote by Franklin about security and freedom? <<rhetorical question>>
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 8:34:47 AM

"Aggressive policing, now banned as "racist" by the socialist mayor."

Stop and Frisk was awful. An incredible overreach of law enforcement.
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 8:30:51 AM

"Aggressive policing, now banned as "racist" by the socialist mayor."

Good response.

I was too busy responding to the ridiculous notion that Illinois has lax gun laws to get to the second question.
Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 11:41:43 PM

"And how, then, is the very low gun death rate, along with the low rate of gun ownership of NY to be explained???"

Aggressive policing, now banned as "racist" by the socialist mayor.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 7:37:33 PM

Again the obsession with gun deaths. As I've said before, guns don't cause violence,violence causes guns.As long as the focus is on guns insteadof
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:57:24 PM

"And how difficult is it to obtain a card?

Easy, if you are a law abiding citizen. You just need to provide your full name, date of birth, street address of residence, Driver's License or Identification Card number, and a color photograph to the Illinois State Police who have 30 days to investigate you and approve or deny your FOID application.

All of the following will result in denial:

convicted of any Felony under the laws of IL or any other jurisdiction.
adjudicated as a mental defective.
been a patient in a mental institution or any part of a medical facility for the treatment of mental illness within the past 5 years.
intellectually disabled or developmentally disabled.
within the past year (preceding the date of this application) used or been addicted to any controlled substance or narcotics in violation of state or federal law.
subject of an existing Order of Protection or a No Contact/No Stalking Order.
within the past 5 years been convicted of battery, assault, aggravated assault, violation of an order of protection, or a substantially similar offense in which a firearm was used or possessed.
been convicted of domestic battery (felony or misdemeanor), aggravated domestic battery or a substantially similar offense.
adjudicated by a court as a mental defective or ordered by a court, board or authorized entity to in-patient or out-patient mental health treatment.
an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States.
a medical marijuana patient registry card holder.
within the past year failed a drug test for a drug for which I did not have a prescription.
been admitted to the United States under a non-immigrant visa of the Immigration and Nationality Act.
renounced my citizenship as a citizen of the United States.
been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
a fugitive from justice.


[Edited by: SE3.5 at 3/27/2015 5:03:13 PM EST]
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:49:23 PM

"And how, then, is the very low gun death rate, along with the low rate of gun ownership of NY to be explained???"

Haven't you been paying attention to the posts by A1 and others who blame the majority of crime on the black community? Clearly the answer is that there are fewer black in NY... <s>
SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:47:31 PM

And how difficult is it to obtain a card?

"If you honestly believe that..."

And how, then, is the very low gun death rate, along with the low rate of gun ownership of NY to be explained???
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:38:00 PM

Steve, says "Illinois has lax gun laws"

FALSE!

(430 ILCS 65/2)

(a) (1) No person may acquire or possess any firearm, stun gun, or taser within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.
(2) No person may acquire or possess firearm ammunition within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.

Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:11:52 PM

"Obviously the simplest answer is also the most effective: ban bacon from burgers. No bacon allowed, no bacon to forget, no reason to shoot up a restaurant.

Oh, and if government confiscated all the money and all the possessions, there wouldn't be anything to steal so there would be no reason to use a gun in a robbery. Private property is so last millennium......"

Strange how some can only use hyperbole to refute a post...
I75at7AM
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 4:10:23 PM

Obviously the simplest answer is also the most effective: ban bacon from burgers. No bacon allowed, no bacon to forget, no reason to shoot up a restaurant.

Oh, and if government confiscated all the money and all the possessions, there wouldn't be anything to steal so there would be no reason to use a gun in a robbery. Private property is so last millennium......

flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 3:56:06 PM

"The simple fact is: the more guns, the more gun deaths. "

If you honestly believe that Steve you have other problems.
SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 3:51:17 PM

Heard a very interesting radio show this morning.

States with stronger gun regulation and a lower percentage of gun ownership, ie: States with stronger gun laws and fewer guns:

Have fewer gun deaths.

Conversely,

States with lax gun laws and a higher percentage of gun ownership have more gun deaths.

New York State was cited with the third least number of gun deaths of all 50 States and a very low percentage of gun ownership, 18%, if I recall. And, of course, NY has the largest city.

And then the question was posed: 'But what about Chicago?'

Chicago is not a State. Illinois has lax gun laws and a high rate of gun ownership. The problem is that illegal guns used in the high rate of gun deaths in Chicago come in from the outside of the city.

It is then logical to assume that if areas with more stringent gun laws were expanded there would be fewer gun deaths.

This goes completely against the foolish and illogical NRA idea that more guns will solve the problem of having lots of gun deaths. The NRA is in the pocket of gun manufacturers and profiteers who are more concerned about profits than the number of deaths.

The simple fact is: the more guns, the more gun deaths.
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 9:39:23 AM

“White guys cannot be trusted to use guns responsibly."

"Michigan woman convicted in bacon-less burger shooting"

Irony? ROTFL
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 8:56:43 AM

"Offset, perhaps, by the greater odds of INTENDED consequences?"

Offset? Crime is crime...

"What do you figure the life expectancy of a mugger or rapist would be in an armed society."

We already are an armed society - some would argue one of the most-armed on the planet. Are people still raped and mugged?
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 8:53:44 AM

"Seems to me that she intended to fire into the store. Using your line of thinking, why not ban the car. Far more "unintended consequences" occur with automobiles than guns."

Continuing on with your hyperbole, why not ban people?
Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 1:02:37 AM

"The more guns out in public, the higher the odds of these unintended consequences."

Offset, perhaps, by the greater odds of INTENDED consequences? What do you figure the life expectancy of a mugger or rapist would be in an armed society.
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 10:18:07 PM

"The more guns out in public, the higher the odds of these unintended consequences. "

Seems to me that she intended to fire into the store. Using your line of thinking, why not ban the car. Far more "unintended consequences" occur with automobiles than guns.

We could have one Federal Safety Officer assigned to, say, every 5 people. We could also have government rail service to every home in the country. No gun deaths. No car wrecks. Problem solved.

[Edited by: SoylentGrain at 3/26/2015 10:18:31 PM EST]
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 5:07:32 PM

Michigan woman convicted in bacon-less burger shooting

This is why increasing the number of guns in the public is bad. It allows access to a deadly tool in the heat of the moment, allowing for a horrible decision to be made that otherwise couldn't happen.

The more guns out in public, the higher the odds of these unintended consequences.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2015 4:39:13 PM

I75at7AM -"Feminist Reporter: Take Away White Men’s Guns"

Yes, she's an idiot, so are most of the commenters on that article.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 3/22/2015 4:40:33 PM EST]
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2015 12:17:29 AM

"“White guys cannot be trusted to use guns responsibly. It is time to stop giving guns to white guys,” Grimes added. ”I mean, it’s time to stop giving guns to everybody, but we can start with the white guys.”"

Yes take the guns from the law abiding citizens.
Only a total idiot could come up with a plan like that.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2015 9:19:59 PM

Racism,anyone?
I75at7AM
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Mar 21, 2015 8:36:31 AM

Here is one idea from "the other side" of the political spectrum:

Feminist Reporter: Take Away White Men’s Guns

Andrea Grimes: "“White guys cannot be trusted to use guns responsibly. It is time to stop giving guns to white guys,” Grimes added. ”I mean, it’s time to stop giving guns to everybody, but we can start with the white guys.”"
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 1:43:16 PM

"You mean "word salad and random babble." "

Concepts that might be over your head. Not "babble" to many people.
MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 12:23:32 PM

"And please don't pretend that Palin doesn't speak in anything other than hyperbole."

You mean "word salad and random babble."
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 12:11:42 PM

"As if everyone thinks Palin, et al are extremists? Sorry, that doesn't cut it."

Because the Tea Party is middle of the road in the GOP? C'mon...

And please don't pretend that Palin doesn't speak in anything other than hyperbole.
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 11:28:12 AM

"Those kinds of comments are no better than the ones we hear from conservative extremists (ie Palin, Bachmann, Cruz, et al). "

As if everyone thinks Palin, et al are extremists? Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Barack Obama lies.

The president has a war against gun ownership and will say anything, factual or not, to accomplish his objective: Selling guns to Mexican criminals, redefining armor piercing bullets, banning lead in projectiles.
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 9:55:24 AM

"Fact-checking the president speaking about guns..."

Speaking 'fast and loose' as your link indicates Obama did doesn't do justice to the issue. It disappoints me to see Obama stepping into the realm of hyperbole so plainly...

Those kinds of comments are no better than the ones we hear from conservative extremists (ie Palin, Bachmann, Cruz, et al).
PiqueOil
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 9:48:02 AM


Fact-checking the president speaking about guns...
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2015 12:53:32 PM

Worked good here too - I especially liked the attitude of the neighbor.
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2015 12:49:19 PM

SE I have a question for the viewers. We often get phone calls for people saying they are conducting a survey or whatever. We always just hang up with out saying anything.

Even if people say something how many people will tell a perfect stranger that they own firearms?

In other words data collected like this is rather suspect to put it mildly.
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2015 12:44:09 PM

"New research from Pew (American Trends Panel) suggests a paradox: while blacks are significantly more likely than whites to be gun homicide victims, blacks are only about half as likely as whites to have a firearm in their home (41% vs. 19%). Hispanics are less likely than blacks to be gun homicide victims and half as likely as whites to have a gun at home (20%)."

The research was based on interviews. I wonder how many of the interviewees were gang affiliated. If gang affiliated households were included, how many would admit to owning a gun?
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Mar 11, 2015 12:36:23 PM

The idea worked just fine here - never take a needle to a potential gunfight.
.
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>>>A South Carolina man gave new meaning to the phrase “this is a stick-up” when he threatened a woman with a needle during a robbery attempt at an ATM in Horry County Saturday morning.

But the 40-year-old woman was inoculated against robbery victimization, for she had something much more lethal inside her vehicle, My Horry News reported.

The woman had just pulled cash out of the ATM when she said the needle-wielding man approached her and demanded her money.

The woman grabbed her gun and told the man, “I dare you to stab me.”

“Are you seriously going to do that to me,” she said the man responded and then ran away.<<<
.
.
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Sometimes nothing works as well as being reasonable. She was......
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 8:06:02 PM

Based on consolidated information from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, there are about 300 millions guns in the United States.
New research from Pew (American Trends Panel) suggests a paradox: while blacks are significantly more likely than whites to be gun homicide victims, blacks are only about half as likely as whites to have a firearm in their home (41% vs. 19%). Hispanics are less likely than blacks to be gun homicide victims and half as likely as whites to have a gun at home (20%).
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2015 8:16:39 PM

"What action did Zimmerman take that he wouldn't have taken if he didn't have a gun?"

IMO he wouldn't have pursued Martin. It gave him a false sense of security that nothing could happen to him.
gas_too_high
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2015 4:16:36 PM

"Terror suspect: I would have put a gun to Obama's head and pulled the trigger"

He would never have gotten that close to Obama. This guy strikes me as a few pieces shy of a place setting.

"Hence why I think guns should be banned completely except for military and (maybe) law enforcement."

How do you propose disarming all the bad guys who don't obediently turn in their guns? And how do you win the trust of law abiding gun owners who are skeptical that bad guys will really be disarmed?

If you don't succeed at the first, you won't succeed at the second, which means turning otherwise law abiding gun owners into criminals.

GTH
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2015 3:15:39 PM

Marty I heard that there are about 90 guns for every 100 people in the US. You say you want to remove them - interesting idea at best.

Now for the real question - what is it you really want to do? Is it to take away an inanimate object that can be misused and hurt people? Is it you want to prevent innocent (as in those who have committed no crime/offense) people from being injured or killed?

Lets have some fun and bat around what your objective is and things like the consequences of what methods you wish to use to reach that objective. For all we know if we can define what it is yo wish to do we might even agree on the most effective way to achieve it.
MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2015 1:13:09 PM

Hence why I think guns should be banned completely except for military and (maybe) law enforcement.
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2015 12:32:20 PM

But not to worry Marty - he did pass the background check.....
MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2015 11:44:34 AM

Terror suspect: I would have put a gun to Obama's head and pulled the trigger


“What would I have done? I would have took my gun, I would have put it to Obama's head and I would have pulled the trigger. Then I would have released more bullets on the Senate and the House of Representative members, and I would have attacked the Israeli embassy and various other buildings full of kafr who want to wage war against us Muslims and shed our blood. That's what would happen.”

Christopher Cornell said if he had not been arrested by Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents outside the Point Blank Range and Gun shop on Harrison Avenue in Colerain Township after buying firearms and 600 rounds of ammunition on Jan. 14, he would have followed through with an alleged terror plot to plant pipe bombs on the U.S. Capitol and Israeli embassy that Cornell said was organized by the Islamic State."


rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2015 1:54:41 AM

PiqueOil - "We could get rid of laws that are broken, leaving us only with laws that are obeyed. But what would be the point of having laws if they were all obeyed?"

It's not even whether or not the laws are obeyed, but whether they actually do any net good.

One good reason that many of our drug laws should be repealed.
PiqueOil
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 8:27:40 PM


"And, apparently, very few gun laws prevent anybody from doing anything." Maybe. We could get rid of laws that are broken, leaving us only with laws that are obeyed. But what would be the point of having laws if they were all obeyed?

I wonder why so many Japanese people kill themselves. Could it be due to endless arguments like this one?
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 6:15:02 PM

PiqueOil - "I agree it's a biased article, and I would add that I've never seen an unbiased one on the subject."

Agreed, but the closest to unbiased that I've seen tend to come from a bit to the pro-gun side, though not the extremes on either side.

"Not an accurate characterization, I'd say. It's more like what Weaslespit wrote here: 'Owning a gun can give (easy) access to poor choices one would not otherwise make'"

Owning a gun doesn't give access to poor choices, except in rare instances. But poor choices can increase the desire to own a gun, often illegally.

"Interesting claim. Any easily found link to an article about this? I'd like to read about it. ***"

I haven't seen anything that addresses it directly. This site has a chart with Japanese suicide rates from 2000-2013 (his source document is in Japanese, but there are other sources). Over that same time period, the U.S. suicide rate has ranged from 10-12/100,000. The U.S homicide rate has been below 6/100,000 since 1999. There are about 600 annual shooting deaths a year in the U.S, which works out to 0.2/100,000.

"And really, it doesn't matter how many laws exists. What matters is what the laws prevent people from doing."

And, apparently, very few gun laws prevent anybody from doing anything.
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 5:35:38 PM

If only the crab had a gun.
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 4:41:22 PM

But it's so simple.

Just make a law that felons can't possess firearms.

Problem solved! Naturally, they'll all just turn them in during the 10-day amnesty period.

Right?
R-iiiiii-ght...

Until THAT fantasy comes true, every citizen should be able to CC if they've had a gun safety course, just like driving.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 4:23:32 PM

Weaslespit - "Guns embolden people to take actions they might not ordinarily take. George Zimmerman is a good example..."

What action did Zimmerman take that he wouldn't have taken if he didn't have a gun?
PiqueOil
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 3:48:32 PM


rjhenn,

I agree it's a biased article, and I would add that I've never seen an unbiased one on the subject.

"IOW, if people are going to kill each other anyway, guns are the tool of choice."

Not an accurate characterization, I'd say. It's more like what Weaslespit wrote here: "Owning a gun can give (easy) access to poor choices one would not otherwise make"

"There's the example of Japan: no guns to speak of and a suicide rate that's higher than the combined US homicide, suicide and accidental firearm rates."

Interesting claim. Any easily found link to an article about this? I'd like to read about it. ***

SE3.5,

Well, every study has limitations -- even those that might be called "pro-gun." However, like you, I appreciate it when researchers acknowledge limitations. Researchers who published in the American College of Physicians also acknowledged limitations in their study. Others acknowledged limitations as well.

The study published by JAMA seems to me to be a bit more limited than the others. As the researchers pointed out, it's pretty hard to accurately count up laws. And really, it doesn't matter how many laws exists. What matters is what the laws prevent people from doing.
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