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Author Topic: The NRA's idea does not work. Back to Topics
Michiganian
Champion Author
Michigan

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Message Posted: Dec 21, 2012 4:11:46 PM

Just ask the survivors at Columbine HS, Fort Hood and Virginia Tech.
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2015 1:54:41 AM

PiqueOil - "We could get rid of laws that are broken, leaving us only with laws that are obeyed. But what would be the point of having laws if they were all obeyed?"

It's not even whether or not the laws are obeyed, but whether they actually do any net good.

One good reason that many of our drug laws should be repealed.
PiqueOil
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 8:27:40 PM


"And, apparently, very few gun laws prevent anybody from doing anything." Maybe. We could get rid of laws that are broken, leaving us only with laws that are obeyed. But what would be the point of having laws if they were all obeyed?

I wonder why so many Japanese people kill themselves. Could it be due to endless arguments like this one?
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 6:15:02 PM

PiqueOil - "I agree it's a biased article, and I would add that I've never seen an unbiased one on the subject."

Agreed, but the closest to unbiased that I've seen tend to come from a bit to the pro-gun side, though not the extremes on either side.

"Not an accurate characterization, I'd say. It's more like what Weaslespit wrote here: 'Owning a gun can give (easy) access to poor choices one would not otherwise make'"

Owning a gun doesn't give access to poor choices, except in rare instances. But poor choices can increase the desire to own a gun, often illegally.

"Interesting claim. Any easily found link to an article about this? I'd like to read about it. ***"

I haven't seen anything that addresses it directly. This site has a chart with Japanese suicide rates from 2000-2013 (his source document is in Japanese, but there are other sources). Over that same time period, the U.S. suicide rate has ranged from 10-12/100,000. The U.S homicide rate has been below 6/100,000 since 1999. There are about 600 annual shooting deaths a year in the U.S, which works out to 0.2/100,000.

"And really, it doesn't matter how many laws exists. What matters is what the laws prevent people from doing."

And, apparently, very few gun laws prevent anybody from doing anything.
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 5:35:38 PM

If only the crab had a gun.
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 4:41:22 PM

But it's so simple.

Just make a law that felons can't possess firearms.

Problem solved! Naturally, they'll all just turn them in during the 10-day amnesty period.

Right?
R-iiiiii-ght...

Until THAT fantasy comes true, every citizen should be able to CC if they've had a gun safety course, just like driving.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 4:23:32 PM

Weaslespit - "Guns embolden people to take actions they might not ordinarily take. George Zimmerman is a good example..."

What action did Zimmerman take that he wouldn't have taken if he didn't have a gun?
PiqueOil
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 3:48:32 PM


rjhenn,

I agree it's a biased article, and I would add that I've never seen an unbiased one on the subject.

"IOW, if people are going to kill each other anyway, guns are the tool of choice."

Not an accurate characterization, I'd say. It's more like what Weaslespit wrote here: "Owning a gun can give (easy) access to poor choices one would not otherwise make"

"There's the example of Japan: no guns to speak of and a suicide rate that's higher than the combined US homicide, suicide and accidental firearm rates."

Interesting claim. Any easily found link to an article about this? I'd like to read about it. ***

SE3.5,

Well, every study has limitations -- even those that might be called "pro-gun." However, like you, I appreciate it when researchers acknowledge limitations. Researchers who published in the American College of Physicians also acknowledged limitations in their study. Others acknowledged limitations as well.

The study published by JAMA seems to me to be a bit more limited than the others. As the researchers pointed out, it's pretty hard to accurately count up laws. And really, it doesn't matter how many laws exists. What matters is what the laws prevent people from doing.
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 1:59:22 PM

"What makes you think that he wouldn't have killed her if he didn't have a gun?"

Guns embolden people to take actions they might not ordinarily take. George Zimmerman is a good example...

"The typical biased article, dependent on biased studies."

There may be some bias in it, but there is also some truth.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 1:21:40 PM

Weaslespit - "Owning a gun can give access to poor choices one would not otherwise make;

Road rage killing: Teen neighbor arrested in Vegas woman's shooting

So many disagreements being solved with gunplay... These are not isolated incidents, much like oilpan's examples spanning decades."

What makes you think that he wouldn't have killed her if he didn't have a gun?
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 1:14:15 PM

PiqueOil - "Slate: 'The Myth of the Good Guy With a Gun'"

The typical biased article, dependent on biased studies.

"relationship between the number of firearms and firearm deaths."

"significant link between gun ownership and firearm-related deaths."

IOW, if people are going to kill each other anyway, guns are the tool of choice.

Which, of course, doesn't mean that they won't still kill each other if they can't get a gun.

"for every 1 percent increase in gun ownership, there was a 1.1 percent increase in the firearm homicide rate and a 0.7 percent increase in the total homicide rate."

Which, rather than proving anything about guns themselves, can be explained by the fact that people who are more likely to kill are more likely to want a gun.

"every single case-control study ever conducted in the United States has found that gun ownership is a strong risk factor for suicide"

And those who want to commit suicide are probably more likely to want a gun to do it with. There's the example of Japan: no guns to speak of and a suicide rate that's higher than the combined US homicide, suicide and accidental firearm rates.

"the most gun-restrictive states have significantly fewer firearm fatalities than the states with the least restrictive laws"

Which says nothing about the total violent death rate.

"the impact of a 2007 Missouri decision to repeal its permit-to-purchase handgun licensing law. The research concluded that the repeal was associated with a 16 percent increase in annual murder rates, indicating that state gun control laws have a significant impact on the homicide rate."

There was a spike in the homicide rate in 2008, but it was a one-year thing, with the homicide rate returning to normal after and since. The only way they can make this argument is by talking about the average, including the anomalous one-year spike.

On the other end of the arguments against firearm ownership, what they have is a series of anecdotes about relatively rare events.

From the National Research Council of the National Academies (2004): "In summary, the committee concludes that existing research studies and data include a wealth of descriptive information on homicide, suicide, and firearms, but, because of the limitations of existing data and methods, do not credibly demonstrate a causal relationship between the ownership of firearms and the causes or prevention of criminal violence or suicide" and "A high level of violence may be a cause of a high level of firearms availability instead of the other way around."

[Edited by: rjhenn at 2/20/2015 1:14:56 PM EST]
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 11:51:50 AM

Pique - your link perfectly describes what I have been posting here, that increase in gun ownership doesn't make the population inherently safer from random acts by criminals, but rather increase the odds of injury/death...

Owning a gun can give access to poor choices one would not otherwise make;

Road rage killing: Teen neighbor arrested in Vegas woman's shooting

So many disagreements being solved with gunplay... These are not isolated incidents, much like oilpan's examples spanning decades.
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 9:50:23 AM

Pique, I don't have the time or inclination to pore through every link in every topic, and well as the links within the links. However, per your request, I did take a SECOND look at the link you posted. I found the following within one of the studies your link relied on:

"Our study has limitations. First, the legislative strength score, which tallies a single point per law, has not been validated. Neither has the weighted Brady scoring system, and we are unaware of any such scoring systems that have been validated." (JAMA Network)

At least JAMA is honest about the validity of the scoring systems used in most anti-gun studies.
PiqueOil
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 9:25:26 AM


SE3.5, oilpan4,

If either of you read the article, would you share your thoughts on the points made? If you've read the studies referred to, please share your thoughts on them as well.
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 9:18:52 AM

"The Myth of the Good Guy With a Gun"

Only a myth in the minds of anti-gun nuts: Woman shoots intruder
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 2:24:55 AM

The myth of the gun free zone: "Columbine HS, Fort Hood and Virginia Tech".
Your move.
PiqueOil
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 12:58:35 AM


Slate: "The Myth of the Good Guy With a Gun"
Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 12:48:19 AM

I DON'T want to be there when they try to fire it for the ballistics investigation.
I75at7AM
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 8:11:40 PM

Wow, this guy seems really dangerous.......
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 1:40:45 PM

"Since many of those others appear to be "cemented in political ideology", you're not likely to succeed with that."

As evidenced by EZ, unfortunately...
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 2:12:14 AM

Weaslespit - "Now to convince some others that I am not cemented in political ideology so as to be labeled a liberal..."

Since many of those others appear to be "cemented in political ideology", you're not likely to succeed with that.
EZExit
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 7:17:03 PM

Weasel: <<<"Glad I am not considered anti-gun by the right. Now to convince some others that I am not cemented in political ideology so as to be labeled a liberal...">>>

--Good luck!
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 7:14:37 PM

Just more proof I'm really glad I dont live in one of them eastern loony bin states.
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>>>‘Beware of New Jersey’: 72-Year-Old Man Facing 10 Years in Prison Over a Gun — but Not Just Any Gun....
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He had an unloaded antique 300-year-old flintlock pistol in his glove compartment, and he told a sheriff’s deputy about it.

That was his undoing.

Gordon van Gilder admits he may have run afoul of the law — but, “as a wise man once said, if that’s the law, the law is an axx.”
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The retired teacher is facing a possible 10 years in prison — and the jeopardization of his pension — all because New Jersey state law classifies antique firearms the same way it classifies regular guns, meaning the state views van Gilder’s possession of an antique on par with him possessing a .44 Magnum.

The day after van Gilder told a deputy during a routine traffic stop about his antique gun, four law enforcement officers showed up at his house to arrest him.<<<
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Hey will Marty call this police brutality and abuse by cop??????
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 15, 2015 12:43:03 PM

"We're just bored because we drove all the anti-gun folks away. . ."

Glad I am not considered anti-gun by the right. Now to convince some others that I am not cemented in political ideology so as to be labeled a liberal...

;)
Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 12:37:31 PM

We're just bored because we drove all the anti-gun folks away. . .
SE3.5
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Feb 13, 2015 8:54:53 AM

The concept of "loser pays" is already available in many courts. Court costs are often assigned to the loser. Since judicial discretion is involved, instances described by rumble and johnny can be dealt with. Judges also have discretion to impose monetary sanctions for filing frivolous lawsuits.

Now I have to wonder what this has to do with the NRA? Perhaps a topic should be dedicated to fairness in the civil court system?
rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Feb 13, 2015 12:01:22 AM

"Tim - I have long advocated that the concept of "looser pays" is a valid way to bring fairness back into the justice system. I do think it would level the playing field."

Assuming you start from a relatively level field. Ever gone up against the government? I was sued once for benefits I received that they decided after the fact I wasn't eligible for. The court costs and their lawyer fees were about 10 times what they sued for. I was on the verge of bankruptcy at the time, I won one round, lost the second, and a further appeal would have cost me to file in the Supreme Court. I couldn't possibly match the willingness of a government agency to go to any lengths to protect themselves from admitting they not only gave me wrong information when they granted the benefits, but lied to me about it.
johnnyg1200
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2015 11:27:12 PM

>>If you want to curtail frivolous lawsuits, make the losing side pay all the winning side's and the court's costs.<<

I like the idea on the surface but the movie Chicago is too close to the way the court system works. Just imagine taking on a company like Ford knowing that they will spend millions to defend themselves. Just how willing would most people be to take them on knowing that they will be responsible for the cost Ford incurs if you lose, even if the tires and design of the car did kill your wife.
Would you take on the EPA if you knew you would have to pay the governments cost if you lose no matter how wrong the EPA is, What about the IRS.

Only the rich could afford the risk of going to court.
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2015 2:58:08 PM

Yes RJ - there is that isnt there. With folks like Holder mixed up in it folks wonder.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2015 2:46:49 PM

flyboyUT - "Tim - I have long advocated that the concept of "looser pays" is a valid way to bring fairness back into the justice system. I do think it would level the playing field."

Assuming the courts are, and remain, honest.
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2015 11:25:27 AM

Tim - I have long advocated that the concept of "looser pays" is a valid way to bring fairness back into the justice system. I do think it would level the playing field.
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2015 8:50:24 AM

If you want to curtail frivolous lawsuits, make the losing side pay all the winning side's and the court's costs.

I would also support a national tax on lawyer's fees and judgement awards, five or six percent should suffice.
PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2015 8:46:38 AM

"Better yet, Frank Herbert wrote a book where the losing lawyer in a lawsuit was executed on the spot. Sort of puts a damper on frivolous lawsuits. . . "

WOW...I Like It
That would really cut down on the Hack Lawyers & Ambulance Chasers
Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2015 12:13:03 AM

Better yet, Frank Herbert wrote a book where the losing lawyer in a lawsuit was executed on the spot. Sort of puts a damper on frivolous lawsuits. . .
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2015 7:59:21 PM

"I seem to remember an SF novel, probably by Mack Reynolds, involving a society where politicians went armed, because it was legal to shoot them.
7;-]"

Lol
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2015 5:53:09 PM

These people didnt get the message - guns aint nice.
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.>>>Drive into tiny Conoy Township, Pa., and you'll see the standard "welcome" sign, but it also comes with a warning: "THIS IS NOT A GUN FREE ZONE."

The signs are meant to alert criminals to the fact that many people in the rural Pennsylvania town of 3,000 are armed. A dozen have been installed so far and three more are slated to go up, which would cover every major road into the town. Officials hope the signs give would-be criminals second thoughts before causing trouble.<<<
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snicker smile
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2015 12:57:55 PM

I seem to remember an SF novel, probably by Mack Reynolds, involving a society where politicians went armed, because it was legal to shoot them.
7;-]
PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2015 9:23:19 AM

"Didn't you say something earlier about being in favor of public executions?"

YES I DID.
Of convicted criminals of high crimes...like Murder, Rape & the like.

Shooting a politician on the grounds that you do not like his politics. Well that puts you dead middle of my previous statement.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2015 8:03:42 PM

flyboyUT - ">>>Following a pattern similar to one we’ve seen in Slate, Politico Magazine, and The Washington Post, the Huffington Post is now contending...."

Actually, that's one of their bloggers.

Who apparently can't read footnotes: "1 The killing of a felon by a law enforcement officer in the line of duty."

[Edited by: rjhenn at 2/10/2015 8:04:36 PM EST]
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2015 3:52:15 PM

If the liberal gun-haters' attempts weren't so laughably transparent, they could actually begin to erode our rights.
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2015 3:45:32 PM

Once more it appears that the liberal media selectively use data to lie. Nothing new folks - just business as usual for the liberals.

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>>>Following a pattern similar to one we’ve seen in Slate, Politico Magazine, and The Washington Post, the Huffington Post is now contending that guns are used to shoot and kill bad guys only about “450” times a year, and the NRA mantra about good guys with guns stopping bad guys with guns is plain hogwash.

According to the HuffPo guns are used for “justifiable homicide” about “450” times a year. To support this, they link to an FBI page which shows that law enforcement officers shot and justifiably killed about “458” people in 2013. They then contrast this with Centers for Disease Control and Prevention statistics on accidental firearm deaths to claim that guns are more frequently involved in accidental death scenarios than in defensive gun uses (DGUs).

Again—the only DGUs that HuffPo counts are those carried out by a law enforcement officer. By comparing apples to oranges in this way, they are able to show only 450 DGUs in 2013 vs 500 accidental gun deaths. Then, they proudly pronounce the argument over by asking that we please not “waste [their] time with the nonsense about how millions of crimes are prevented each year by [good guys] walking around with guns.”

But in reality, when we look at DGUs by armed citizens throughout the country rather than by the small percentage of our population represented by law enforcement officers, the numbers are quite different. Breitbart News previously reported that a low estimate of DGUs is “760,000” annually. That works out to about 14,615 DGUs a week and about 2,082 DGUs a day.<<<

Liar = liberal it appears again.......
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2015 11:27:35 AM

"Even I would not allow them to bring any weapons into the chambers of the Washington House gallery.
There would be too much temptation to down some fat cat politicians."

Didn't you say something earlier about being in favor of public executions?
MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2015 11:24:12 AM

"There would be too much temptation to down some fat cat politicians."

QED
PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2015 10:14:06 AM

STUPID.
Even I would not allow them to bring any weapons into the chambers of the Washington House gallery.
There would be too much temptation to down some fat cat politicians.
MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2015 9:08:01 AM

No Arrests As Planned Washington State Capitol Protest Fizzles


The plan was for everyone carrying a gun into the chambers of the Washington House gallery on Saturday to get arrested — an antigovernment act of civil disobedience to call attention to the state’s new gun control law. But as the crowd of about 50 antigovernment gun owners gathered in the drizzle, waiting for the right moment to go it, the plan hit a snag.

The legislature was not in session. The governor was gone. The House gallery was closed and the doors to it locked. In other words, there was nothing there that the gun owners — who toted a variety of weapons to the protest — could do as an act of civil disobedience to protest a ban on citizens bringing weapons in the state House and Senate chambers.

“What’s the world coming to when there are people who want to break the law and they won’t let you do it?” Dave Grenier, 58, of Tumwater, a protest participant, told the Associated Press.



Tsk... rain on the yahoo parade.

Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2015 12:49:52 AM

Not agreeing with his proposal, just expressing surprise someone like that is willing to admit that violent crime is associated with specific demographic groups.

Bubba with his confederate flag, guns, and a pickup truck is not that dangerous.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2015 2:01:02 AM

"Bloomberg claimed that 95 percent of murders fall into a specific category: male, minority and between the ages of 15 and 25. Cities need to get guns out of this group’s hands and keep them alive, he said."

No, society needs to see that they get an education and improve themselves.
Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2015 11:58:48 PM

Bloomberg claimed that 95 percent of murders fall into a specific category: male, minority and between the ages of 15 and 25. Cities need to get guns out of this group’s hands and keep them alive, he said.

. . . .

At one point, the former mayor brought up New York City’s stop-and-frisk practices, which gained national attention in 2011. Bloomberg said that during his last year in office, a minister at a Baptist church in Harlem invited him to speak.

“While I’m sitting there waiting for him to introduce me, he said to his congregation, ‘You know, if every one of you stopped and frisked your kid before they went out at night, the mayor wouldn’t have to do it,'”

Two GREAT points.

[Edited by: Cirdan at 2/8/2015 11:59:05 PM EST]
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2015 3:48:39 PM

The truth comes out - this arch liberal is a closet racist who is coming out of the closet.
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>>>He is rabidly against the private ownership of firearms by less-wealthy American citizens… especially if they are young minority males:

Bloomberg claimed that 95 percent of murders fall into a specific category: male, minority and between the ages of 15 and 25. Cities need to get guns out of this group’s hands and keep them alive, he said.

“These kids think they’re going to get killed anyway because all their friends are getting killed,” Bloomberg said. “They just don’t have any long-term focus or anything. It’s a joke to have a gun. It’s a joke to pull a trigger.”

At one point, the former mayor brought up New York City’s stop-and-frisk practices, which gained national attention in 2011. Bloomberg said that during his last year in office, a minister at a Baptist church in Harlem invited him to speak.

“While I’m sitting there waiting for him to introduce me, he said to his congregation, ‘You know, if every one of you stopped and frisked your kid before they went out at night, the mayor wouldn’t have to do it,'” Bloomberg said. “And so I knew I was going to be okay with that audience.”

The history of arms control on Earth is the history of those in power attempting to disarm a minority that they want to control and/or exterminate.

R.J. Rummel’s research into Democide (the mass murder of populations by their own governments) is a study in the disarmament and then slaughter of minority populations. 262 million people were murdered by their own governments in the 20th century alone.

Every single one of these democides was carried out be men who held the belief that the world would be better off if they were simply allowed to disarm and then “deal with” the “undesirables” in their cultures.

I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that Mr. Bloomberg is that sort, however, just because he wants to disarm minorities and tell them how to live.<<<

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Does anyone wonder why it always seems its the Democrats and liberals who want to disarm the minorities. Do black lives matter at all to them? Does the ability to defend yourself matter to them? I guess that the only reasonable answer is no they just dont care as long as "those people" dont get guns.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2015 8:15:09 AM

"The NRA does not advocate improper storage or handling of firearms."

You are 100% correct there.

It does seem, however, that they do advocate that all should bear arms, meaning an increase in said events where gun safety is lacking. Putting something on paper (like the rule you referenced) doesn't equate to a tangible impact out in the real world regarding an increase in safety...
Cirdan
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2015 12:28:17 AM

NRA haters don't realize that the organization is one of the leading advocates of gun safety and gun training around.
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Joined:Aug 2008
Message Posted: Feb 2, 2015 5:57:00 PM

YOur absolutely right weasle - but there is one minor little problem with what yo said. The NRA does not advocate improper storage or handling of firearms. They do not say that leaving a firearm where a toddler can access it is wise. IN fact the NRA says just the opposite. Look again at the rules for safe gun handling -

like this rule weasle----
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>>>Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.
Many factors must be considered when deciding where and how to store guns. A person's particular situation will be a major part of the consideration. Dozens of gun storage devices, as well as locking devices that attach directly to the gun, are available. However, mechanical locking devices, like the mechanical safeties built into guns, can fail and should not be used as a substitute for safe gun handling and the observance of all gun safety rules.<<<

The reason those two people got injured is not because of the NRA's idea - its because the people involved DID NOT FOLLOW THE NRA'S IDEAS ON SAFETY!
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