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flyboyUT Champion Author Utah Posts:22,783 Points:1,007,635 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 5:47:57 PM Ignore flyboyUT Report Abuse These people honestly have a real problem with reality it seems. But being liberals that is a prerequisite. . >>>But, to the technocrats in the federal government, the tax you don't have to pay on the value of rent you don't have to pay because you own your home is a loophole. Read that last sentence again. Its called "The Imputed Net Rental Income on Owner-Occupied Housing" and the feds include it in their annual list of "tax expenditures." That term is how Washington officially refers to credits, deductions and exemptions. Here's how the federal government describes it: Under the baseline tax system, the taxable income of a taxpayer who is an owner-occupant would include the implicit value of gross rental income on housing services earned on the investment in owner-occu-pied housing and would allow a deduction for expenses, such as interest, depreciation, property taxes, and other costs, associated with earning such rental income. In con- trast, the Tax Code allows an exclusion from taxable in- come for the implicit gross rental income on housing ser- vices, while in certain circumstances allows a deduction for some costs associated with such income, such as for mortgage interest and property taxes. Let's say you own a home and your mortgage is $1,000 a month. If, however, you instead rented the home from a landlord your rent, let's say, would be $2,000 a month. To the mandarins at the IRS, you are "earning" an implied $1,000 a month because you own and not rent, and that "value" should be added to your taxable income. If you own your home out-right and don't have a mortgage at all, you would be "earning" $2,000 a month which the IRS thinks should be added to your taxable income. I have no doubt there is an elaborate, overly complicated theory for how this makes sense. But elaborate, overly complicated theories are also often silly. I own a car. If I didn't, I would have to rent one from a rental firm, which would be considerably more expensive. Is the difference between my car payment and hypothetical rental fees something I "earned" which should be added to my taxable income? Yes it is, say the bureaucrats in Washington.<<< So all those folks who actuall own their homes adn cars adn clothes and stuff are now going to have to pay income taxes based on what the rent should be for that stuff. OOOOOOOKKKKKK which way is the loony bin.

flyboyUT

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Utah

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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 5:47:57 PM

Ignore flyboyUT Report Abuse

These people honestly have a real problem with reality it seems. But being liberals that is a prerequisite.
.
>>>But, to the technocrats in the federal government, the tax you don't have to pay on the value of rent you don't have to pay because you own your home is a loophole.

Read that last sentence again. Its called "The Imputed Net Rental Income on Owner-Occupied Housing" and the feds include it in their annual list of "tax expenditures." That term is how Washington officially refers to credits, deductions and exemptions. Here's how the federal government describes it:

Under the baseline tax system, the taxable income of a taxpayer who is an owner-occupant would include the implicit value of gross rental income on housing services earned on the investment in owner-occu-pied housing and would allow a deduction for expenses, such as interest, depreciation, property taxes, and other costs, associated with earning such rental income. In con- trast, the Tax Code allows an exclusion from taxable in- come for the implicit gross rental income on housing ser- vices, while in certain circumstances allows a deduction for some costs associated with such income, such as for mortgage interest and property taxes.

Let's say you own a home and your mortgage is $1,000 a month. If, however, you instead rented the home from a landlord your rent, let's say, would be $2,000 a month. To the mandarins at the IRS, you are "earning" an implied $1,000 a month because you own and not rent, and that "value" should be added to your taxable income. If you own your home out-right and don't have a mortgage at all, you would be "earning" $2,000 a month which the IRS thinks should be added to your taxable income.

I have no doubt there is an elaborate, overly complicated theory for how this makes sense. But elaborate, overly complicated theories are also often silly. I own a car. If I didn't, I would have to rent one from a rental firm, which would be considerably more expensive. Is the difference between my car payment and hypothetical rental fees something I "earned" which should be added to my taxable income?

Yes it is, say the bureaucrats in Washington.<<<

So all those folks who actuall own their homes adn cars adn clothes and stuff are now going to have to pay income taxes based on what the rent should be for that stuff. OOOOOOOKKKKKK which way is the loony bin.

REPLIES (newest first)Ignore Short Messages

AC-302 Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:26,541 Points:2,898,095 Joined:Aug 2004	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 1:49:38 PM Ignore AC-302 Report Abuse I'm not sure how paying a mortgage is "hidden income"? Or is this an intended "fairness" mandate so that non-home owners can write off their rent payments? If that is so, it will have the unintended consequence of increasing rents. Why so? Because landlords will now know that they can squeeze the amount of a tax break out of new tenents. But the mortgage interest deduction has an intention. That intention is that they are trying to encourage home ownership in order to keep neighborhoods stable and presumably safe. Hey, here's a possible loophole. What if you set up a trust or a company that bought the home, then rented it to yourself? Could you then take that rental deduction, and claim losses on your corporation from which you're renting from yourself?
MiddletownMarty Champion Author Connecticut Posts:17,535 Points:268,635 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 1:37:02 PM Ignore MiddletownMarty Report Abuse "Marty you can always tell when folks get all bent outa shape - they start going all potty mouthed again - why do you continue to do that?" I do it so you'll have something with more substance than a Breitbart article to whine and whimper about. "If your losing the discussion and get frustrated" I'm not. Read the facts and get slapped again if you wish. "Marty Obama hasnt let little things like precident or the Constitution stop him from attempting other things" Obama isn't mentioned in the OP. He isn't even mentioned in the linked article. [Edited by: MiddletownMarty at 12/9/2012 1:37:56 PM EST]
flyboyUT Champion Author Utah Posts:22,783 Points:1,007,635 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 12:51:36 PM Ignore flyboyUT Report Abuse MJ in one sense I can understand the taxing of 'hidden wages'. After all the value of your retirement, vacation days, sick leave, health insurance etc that are paid for as part of working are part of your compensation arent they? The easiest thing to do is to make the whole tax structure more 'fair' for all. Throw it out and start over. Lets have no more company paid for and hidden wages. No union paid for retirement of bennies. Hey if its of value and you get it its income. Same with dividends and increase in value of investments. Its of value then its part of your income. The capital gains need to reflect inflation and the dividends need to only be taxed once. Lets remove all taxes of any kind on business and have just taxes on individuals. We all benefit from government so all pay the same rate. 20% of $30,000 is a lot less than 20% of 30 million of income. Fair is fair - fair is defined as we all pay the same rate.
MahopacJack Champion Author New York Posts:7,999 Points:1,579,755 Joined:Feb 2008	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 12:37:18 PM Ignore MahopacJack Report Abuse Fly, Another excellent post. Unfortunately this tax on Phantom Income already exists and this particular example may eventually come into being as we subject ourselves to allowing the Tyranny by majority rule (the strategy of the Progressive movement) to advance. IOW, the minority in this country have been losing property (and consequently freedom) to those who declare it is the right thing to do. An example of the Phantom Tax is, the IRS has deemed the costs of running Dividend Re-Investment Plans are taxable to the people who forego taking their dividends and investing them. The reason this exists (IMO) is, not many people take do this so it is FORCED upon those who plow back their dividends into their investments. Yes, it is a small amount but eventually the IRS would consider (IMO) taxing things such as employee benefits. John McCain had already mentioned the taxing of Medical Insurance paid by employees.
101Speedster Champion Author Ventura Posts:30,401 Points:2,714,620 Joined:May 2005	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 11:55:15 AM Ignore 101Speedster Report Abuse I'm getting the feeling that someone is trying to figure out how to pay for Obamacare and more government entitlements.
sgm4law Champion Author Maryland Posts:18,780 Points:2,374,550 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 11:45:21 AM Ignore sgm4law Report Abuse The concept of imputed income has been around a long time. I first heard about it from a conservative tax law professor. It Irked me at the time. theoretical tax is a bizarre area; tax expenditures in general try to show the inherent biases of our tax system, compared to a flat tax.
flyboyUT Champion Author Utah Posts:22,783 Points:1,007,635 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 11:33:29 AM Ignore flyboyUT Report Abuse nstrdnvstr - check this out - if you itemize . >>>If you are self-employed and have a net profit for the year, you may be able to deduct (as an adjustment to income) the premiums you paid on a health insurance policy covering medical care including a qualified long-term care insurance policy covering medical care including a qualified long-term care insurance policy for yourself and your spouse and dependents.<<< and Medical care expenses include the insurance premiums you paid for policies that cover medical care or for a qualified long-term care insurance policy covering qualified long-term care services.<<< But as usual in any regulation/law there is a ton of yabuts and itdepends clauses.
flyboyUT Champion Author Utah Posts:22,783 Points:1,007,635 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 11:24:52 AM Ignore flyboyUT Report Abuse Marty you can always tell when folks get all bent outa shape - they start going all potty mouthed again - why do you continue to do that? If your losing the discussion and get frustrated - just stop posting - you dont need to act like a schoolyard kid and start cussin and stompin. {:-) Marty Obama hasnt let little things like precident or the Constitution stop him from attempting other things - like his demand to be allowed to set the debt limit himself or ignore it at will. Why would he and the rest of his prog buddies not try and find any new tax they can? After all Obamacare turned out to be a tax didnt it? Paxy - I posted the link to the article to provide a subject for adult discussion. Did I say that the source was correct? Did I say the source was wholly truthful? [Edited by: flyboyUT at 12/9/2012 11:25:55 AM EST]
Cliffisher Champion Author Wisconsin Posts:25,986 Points:3,132,650 Joined:Sep 2003	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 11:21:08 AM Ignore Cliffisher Report Abuse --Marty, You are now in trouble. You typed in "Crap". Shame Shame LOL
MiddletownMarty Champion Author Connecticut Posts:17,535 Points:268,635 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 11:14:58 AM Ignore MiddletownMarty Report Abuse "while health insurance premiums paid by the employer are to be reported on this year's W-2 forms, it isn't taxable, at least not yet...Form W-2 2012" No it isn't, but it should be.
EZExit Champion Author Phoenix Posts:10,370 Points:1,704,630 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 11:11:40 AM Ignore EZExit Report Abuse I stand corrected, while health insurance premiums paid by the employer are to be reported on this year's W-2 forms, it isn't taxable, at least not yet...Form W-2 2012 I originally got my information here in this regard:ObamaCare Tax Hikes and misread the portion about reporting employer premiums payments as income, sorry. ************ nstrdnvstr, I see you knew what I was trying to say anyway. I had meant health insurance premiums in my previous statement. If in your case you are self-employed, you can still deduct your insurance premiums pre tax, at least for now...
nstrdnvstr Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:36,828 Points:3,980,955 Joined:May 2001	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 8:25:54 AM Ignore nstrdnvstr Report Abuse EZExit, "Well, they started this year already counting the health care an employer provides as income to be reported on W-2s (you'll see that as part of your yearly income in a month or so)." First of all, most employers don't "provide health care", they provide insurance. They are two different things. Secondly, the reasoning for that is many people like myself pay for their own health insurance and get no tax write off for it, thus we use after tax dollars while workers that get health insurance through their employers get to use pre tax dollars. In my opinion, everybody should be able to use pre tax dollars.
MiddletownMarty Champion Author Connecticut Posts:17,535 Points:268,635 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 8:05:42 AM Ignore MiddletownMarty Report Abuse "Well, they started this year already counting the health care an employer provides as income to be reported on W-2s (you'll see that as part of your yearly income in a month or so)." First, that was a proposal made by John McCain (and denounced by Obama) during the 2008 Presidential campaign. Second, that claim is crap. Fact check Fact-slapped.
FluffyDogAttack Champion Author Riverside Posts:1,058 Points:93,775 Joined:Oct 2012	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 12:49:56 AM Ignore FluffyDogAttack Report Abuse Ahahahaha! I told you somebody would defend this nonsense. Love it!
EZExit Champion Author Phoenix Posts:10,370 Points:1,704,630 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 12:29:44 AM Ignore EZExit Report Abuse Well, they started this year already counting the health care an employer provides as income to be reported on W-2s (you'll see that as part of your yearly income in a month or so). Pulling an antic such as taxing your property based on potential income wouldn't surprise me a bit. This is part of the no increase in taxes promised to the poor and middle class. <sarcasm>
PappaVanTwee Champion Author Indianapolis Posts:14,634 Points:677,090 Joined:Feb 2003	Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 12:17:27 AM Ignore PappaVanTwee Report Abuse >>> This has to be some kind of a sick joke - doesnt it?? <<< The fact that you are quoting Breitbart like it's the bible? Yes, yes it is.
MiddletownMarty Champion Author Connecticut Posts:17,535 Points:268,635 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 9:57:36 PM Ignore MiddletownMarty Report Abuse None of your last post is relevant to the topic. You've been fact-slapped. I'm sure it stings, but it will pass. Get over it and move on. [Edited by: MiddletownMarty at 12/8/2012 9:58:39 PM EST]
flyboyUT Champion Author Utah Posts:22,783 Points:1,007,635 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 9:49:51 PM Ignore flyboyUT Report Abuse Marty remember Obama and all the times he promised and said that Obamacare wasnt a tax. Then he said well I guess it is. How do you define a liar/dishonest/deceitful person Marty?
MiddletownMarty Champion Author Connecticut Posts:17,535 Points:268,635 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 9:35:21 PM Ignore MiddletownMarty Report Abuse "Marty do you really think minor things like that will even concern these meglomaniacs in Washington today?" Clearly a minor thing like a 78 year old Supreme Court decision on the subject didn't concern Breitbart and the lemmings who take every word it publishes to be the truth. "It makes no sense that if we own a home, car, etc that we have to pay taxes as if it is rental income when it is being used by the owner." The crazy thing is you don't, but you can believe otherwise if you need something to whine and whimper about.
Panama19 Champion Author Louisville Posts:25,229 Points:2,538,560 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 9:26:27 PM Ignore Panama19 Report Abuse Never stand between the IRS and an untaxed dollar.
Wanda127 Champion Author Florida Posts:2,478 Points:910,985 Joined:May 2010	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 9:24:08 PM Ignore Wanda127 Report Abuse "So all those folks who actually own their homes and cars and clothes and stuff are now going to have to pay income taxes based on what the rent should be for that stuff. OOOOOOOKKKKKK which way is the loony bin." This is crazy!!! It makes no sense that if we own a home, car, etc that we have to pay taxes as if it is rental income when it is being used by the owner. [Edited by: Wanda127 at 12/8/2012 9:26:19 PM EST]
flyboyUT Champion Author Utah Posts:22,783 Points:1,007,635 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 9:19:13 PM Ignore flyboyUT Report Abuse Marty do you really think minor things like that will even concern these meglomaniacs in Washington today? Have they ever seen a tax they didnt like? Is there any spending that they couldnt justify somehow. After all we have studies involving shrimp on treadmills and we spent a grundle of money training some cops how to deal with a zombie invasion didnt we. Like tha lady council member in Detroit - its time for some Quid Pro Quo.
mudtoe Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:9,467 Points:1,285,340 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 8:42:00 PM Ignore mudtoe Report Abuse By this logic you owe tax every year on the rental value of everything you "own". Sort of a new twist on the communist idea that government owns all assets. Here you get to keep it on paper but have to pay government to use what you own. Nice.. mudtoe.
MiddletownMarty Champion Author Connecticut Posts:17,535 Points:268,635 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 8:32:38 PM Ignore MiddletownMarty Report Abuse The rental value of the building used by the owner does not constitute income within the meaning of the Sixteenth Amendment. --Helvering v. Independent Life Ins. Co., 292 U.S. 371, 378-79 (1934)
FluffyDogAttack Champion Author Riverside Posts:1,058 Points:93,775 Joined:Oct 2012	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 6:43:21 PM Ignore FluffyDogAttack Report Abuse And you know there will be plenty of kool-aid drinking Demo-bots defending this nonsense- probably right here on this forum too. There's just no reasoning with this bunch. It's not our leaders that are at fault, it's the masses that rubber-stamp their evil and then celebrate the buggering to come. We're doomed and they think it's awesome.