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Author Topic: Are right to work states better off? Back to Topics
btc1

Champion Author
Lexington

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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 9:43:55 AM

Quality of life and income better in non-right-to-work states.

" Recently The Republic published an editorial extolling the virtues of the proposed “right- to-work” legislation that Gov. Daniels hopes to pass in the next session of the Indiana General Assembly. Quoting from the editorial, “Additional jobs and investment mean more revenue, more opportunities and a higher quality of life.”

Easily available data, mostly from the Census Bureau and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, clearly demonstrates that the citizens of right-to-work states are not experiencing the benefits that proponents promise.

By any number of relevant measures, the 22 right-to-work states do not fare nearly as well as the 28 states without right-to-work legislation."

To answer the topic question, it seems not so better off.
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daylily2009
Champion Author Fayetteville

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2013 11:10:31 AM

yes
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daylily2009
Champion Author Fayetteville

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Message Posted: Jan 6, 2013 3:51:07 PM

I think so!
Why wouldanyone want to give money to union thugs to pass on to the democrats(guess my party)
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daylily2009
Champion Author Fayetteville

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Message Posted: Dec 14, 2012 8:18:12 PM

I think so
The thughs union leaders!
uses money to support a cetain party!!
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Hiram 615
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 9:33:34 PM

" worked as a Senior Electronics technician, a skilled job that requires a LOT of schooling."

Do you believe you were underpaid? Didn't you say, the following?

"Competent people bargain for their own wages. They get what the market bears. If they are good, the company will pay them more to keep that talent. This is the way capitalism works."

"Right to work states will be the place where big business behaves itself. Without a union to blame, complaints will have to be addressed."

...We will see....
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YDraigGoch
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 8:27:16 PM

Unions set the rule of paying dues. Fine, if you join the union. But what in the world gave them the idea that you MUST join a union in order to work?

Competent people bargain for their own wages. They get what the market bears. If they are good, the company will pay them more to keep that talent. If they are poor workers, the company will keep raises to a minimum. This is the way capitalism works.

When I was still in school, I worked as a Senior Electronics technician, a skilled job that requires a LOT of schooling. Yet union people stacking shelves at the grocery store made more than any technician because the union could extort those high wages.

Unions had their day. They did a lot of good. This is no longer the 1920s. Time to move on. If Big Business wants to pull the same old garbage as before, unions will simply supply them with an excuse to get even nastier, without being able to stop the trend.

Right to work states will be the place where big business behaves itself. Without a union to blame, complaints will have to be addressed.

Of course, inCompetent and mediocre workers will have to fend for themselves. Without the union to back them up, they may have to resort to improving their skills. Heaven forbid!
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noseatbelt
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 6:35:13 PM

unions, are losing the respect of many people, and their actions in detroit are one of the main reasons. My neighbor, was a member of the uaw for more than 30 years, and he says he can't believe how low they have sunk in the last few years.
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johnnyg1200
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 1:02:39 PM

I am prolife the union I worked for constantly gave union money to prodeath politicians.

I am in favor of smaller government and the union constantly gave money to politicians that want bigger and more government.

I am against Obamacare and the effect it will have on my health insurance. The union I worked for gave money to every pro Obamacare candidate there was.

I think if you have failed you second random drug test in a safety sensitive job you should be fired. The union will take every termination to arbitration even when they know they can’t win. By the way that costs is not cheap.

I think if an employee can’t get to work and when he does he can’t get there on time he needs to find a new job. My union has gotten one clown his job back twice because an arbitrator felt sorry for him.

The union was using the money it collected from me of help politicians I opposed. I believe in free speech but not forced speech.

The fun part was watching the faces of my employees when the union was forced to add a $50 a month deduction to their paycheck, in addition to the normal union dues, because they couldn’t afford the cost of arbitrations. This was not voted on it was just added because they couldn’t afford to cover the cost of arbitrations.

If we get right to work in Missouri I would bet that ¾ of my mechanics would leave the union and the drivers will lose their only skilled labor. Mechanic pay will go up for those that leave the union and the unionized professional steering wheel holders pay will go down.

By the way the union is leasing a Lincoln Town Car at $500 a month for the union president. He needs to drive around in style.

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MahopacJack
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 12:06:04 PM

Ladygator2007, >>... Somewhere along the line something happened. It became about money for some and getting away with things for others. I know there are still very decent people in unions but the idea of forcing people to pay union dues is no different than the mob or gangs charging people protection money<<
***
Unions began the descent when the Union Leaders changed their priorities from helping the worker to helping themselves to trappings of power.

I too grew up in a pro Union family. I was also once a Shop Steward. I saw first hand how Unions do not look out for their members as my mother was denied a Teamsters pension because of a technicality. My father, who had worked for a company for over 30 years passed away 4 months before he became pension eligible at the age of 62. Things such as this no longer happen as a result of Senators Javits (R) leadership in passing ERISA in 1974.
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 11:38:33 AM

After watching those videos, I'm wondering how unions are hoping to attract new young workers to join them? I certainly wouldn't want to be associated with people acting like that.
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WES03
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 8:54:11 AM

It seems to me that all the stereotypes of union thuggery were personified in the videos out of Mich. yesterday.
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Tru2psu2
Champion Author Winston-Salem

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 7:22:15 AM

I believe we are here in NC.....I dealt with the UAW back in Peoria...
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Bell30012
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 6:27:10 AM

The union at one time served a good purpose. Through the unions we wound up getting 40 hour work weeks, overtime and workplace safety. But now we have the Department of Labor, LRB, OSHA. The government will take care of all that. The unions have outlived their own usefulness. Rather than continuing with a slow decline they go full out and wind up loses ground in each major battle.
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Ladygator2007
Champion Author Florida

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 6:21:17 AM

I grew up in a union family back when the unions main concern was the workers welfare. Getting them a decent wage and safe working conditions. When if came time to join the work force everyone wanted to be in a union. Somewhere along the line something happened. It became about money for some and getting away with things for others. I know there are still very decent people in unions but the idea of forcing people to pay union dues is no different than the mob or gangs charging people protection money.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 1:12:19 AM

nst - I'm pro choice on both accounts.
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nstrdnvstr
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:58:36 PM

btc, "Representation, en masse, is the best way to get a point across."

Yeah, I "got the point". The union president herself threatened my job, in public because I didn't agree with the union about politics OR the health insurance plan they (the union) plan offered to us.

They told us members that a $300,000 lifetime cap health insurance policy is great. I disagreed and said so.

The point was, don't tell the members the truth about what the union promises or they will get you fired.

[Edited by: nstrdnvstr at 12/11/2012 5:59:50 PM EST]
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nstrdnvstr
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:45:48 PM

To all you liberals, why is it that you are "pro-choice" when it comes to having an abortion, but are anti-choice when it comes do belonging to a union?
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nstrdnvstr
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:44:38 PM

worryfree, "Many young workers and voters have forgotten all the good things unions have done for workers"

Yeah, like getting one fired because you don't agree with them on issues. That is a good thing, right worryfree?
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:40:02 PM


worryfree, "Many young workers and voters have forgotten all the good things unions have done for workers"

That was 3-5 generations ago. Now unions have become the oppressive force they originally were formed to fight.

Violent Mob Destroys Americans For Prosperity Tent in Lansing, Michigan Protest

Fists and clubs to enforce their rules were the abuses of the company owners that unions formed to fight against for self-protection.

Today the only ones using fists and clubs to get their way are the union goons.

Not something decent people want any part of.

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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:36:49 PM

If you look at the employment and population trends in right to work states as compared to union states, you will see a big difference. While some of the right to work states are historically rural and poor, especially in the south, their fortunes are on the upswing. On the other hand the union states are headed downhill as people and jobs leave those states.


mudtoe
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noseatbelt
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:27:23 PM

Worry, how can worker safety go down the drain, isn't that what we have thousands of government regulations for, and thousands of new ones every year? The only thing unions are good at is shovelling millions of dollars, of dues money, to the democrats, and many of their members don't like that.

Unions are loseing power, and they only need to look at their actions to see why.
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 3:37:23 PM

So why are there jobs to be had in RTW states and not in those without? My wife's company decided to expand in Indiana... right after they became RTW.

The OP is an editorial. I'd like to see the source material.

[Edited by: teacher_tim at 12/11/2012 3:40:48 PM EST]
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worryfree
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 3:14:07 PM

Many young workers and voters have forgotten all the good things unions have done for workers. I guess they need to relearn the hard way as RTW becomes more common and wages, benefits and worker safety go down the drain. RTW is all about reducing wages and benefits so the owners of companies can make more money. Just about every RTW state pays their workers much less than non RTW states. To deny this is totally disingenuous.
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Bell30012
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:34:10 PM

The number one killer of union membership over the past decade has been the unions themselves. As the unions bankrupt companies those jobs go away. As other companies move to Right - to - Work states there go the union members. Face it, unions won't survive if they can't FORCE people to join and SEIZE the dues from their checks. When given a choice, people opt out. Unions hate people to choose.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:13:18 PM

Oh, have some facts.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 10:11:00 PM


worryfree, "Industry and Reagan have been doing their best to kill unions"

Only the workers fleeing unions can kill unions.

As they have been doing whenever they get the opportunity.

This is the reason unions want "Card Check" to be enacted - so that they can threaten those workers that don't want to join the union.

The mob is the mob and will never change.

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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 6:57:33 PM

Worry - unions have been doing their best to move jobs and industries offshore adn to destroyt companies here for years. Just ask Hostess - they did a fantastic job of destroying a company there. Check out how great Detroit is doing these days. Union and democratic leadership is really doing a number for them aint it.
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worryfree
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 6:51:05 PM

Industry and Reagan have been doing their best to kill unions.
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noseatbelt
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 5:57:08 PM

If unions, are so great, why do they represent such a small percentage of workers, and why do many union members want out?
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 11:06:04 AM


AC-302, "Instead of the companies hurting workers, you now have UNIONS hurting them and treating them arbitrarily"

This is not a new thing. In the '60s I worked in a closed shop state, and had union members offer to break my legs for me if I didn't go to their strike meeting and vote the way they told me to vote.

In the '70s and '80s I saw union members killed in Western Pennsylvania for crossing union picket lines. We also had a driver almost killed when teamsters dropped a cement block from an overpass on the interstate through the windshield of our company van when the Teamsters were on strike.

It is no accident that the mob is involved in union leadership; they are the past masters at extortion, which is the fundamental basis of union functioning:

"Give us what we demand or we will destroy what you have built".

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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 10:59:49 AM

gocat: "Afs, the real question is why are cons set on blue collar workers making less money and getting fewer benefits."


If the unions are so good for workers then they will remain in the unions. Right to work doesn't make unions illegal; it just makes them voluntary. What's your objection to voluntary? Shouldn't the workers themselves have the right to decide for themselves whether or not they want to belong to a union and if the dues required are worth whatever benefits they may get?

The only reason I can see to object to workers having the freedom to decide for themselves whether or not to belong to the union, is if you believe that benefits of membership aren't worth the cost and are afraid that workers have figured that out too. Also, that belief only makes sense if you are in union management, or believe that those dues union members are currently being forced to pay, whether they want to or not, are somehow being used to support causes you believe in (as in the democrat party), and you want the forced contributions from others to your causes to continue.

Just out of curiosity gocat, which category are you in? Are you a union boss benefiting directly from union contributions, or are you such a died in the wool democrat that you want to see other people forced to contribute to the political party you believe in?


mudtoe


[Edited by: mudtoe at 12/10/2012 11:00:28 AM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 10:38:15 AM

AFSNCO - your point is very well taken.

But I think the reason why is since labor unions donate to liberal, Democrat candidates and causes, they don't want to lose that source of funding. And even the lib-dems here recognize that. I don't think they REALLY give a "spit" about the average everyday worker being taken advantage of. If they did, they would also decry the corruption and dysfunction of most labor unions today. Instead of the companies hurting workers, you now have UNIONS hurting them and treating them arbitrarily. Liberals - tell me exactly how that is a better situation?

RTW is the way to go. Let the unions PROVE that they are relevant to workers and companies today.
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gocatgo
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 10:33:48 AM

Afs, the real question is why are cons set on blue collar workers making less money and getting fewer benefits. That is the real fight for unions.
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AFSNCO
Champion Author Montgomery

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 10:20:42 AM

Why are liberals so set on forcing people to pay to have a job?
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daylily2009
Champion Author Fayetteville

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 7:32:56 PM

Yes ask former Governor perdue!!
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Bell30012
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 6:07:01 PM

Right to Work simply forces the union to up its game. There are many unions even in right to work states, you just have the choice to join or not to join. Yes, not being able to force people to join unions makes the unions job harder. They grew very complacent with mandatory membership. Now they will have to preach the positives of being in a union.

I wonder what the Hostess employees think of their unions right now. Merry Christmas.
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owt
Champion Author Tennessee

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 5:56:43 PM

I live in a right to work state,,,,,,answer YES. Workers should have the right to chose to be in a union or not, around here most chose NOT.
The unions served their purpose earlier in their life but now they are just another big business that is after the workers money... and they take it.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 5:01:28 PM

Hey AC - I second the motion on a National Right To Work Law. All in favor say aye aye Captain.

Just think how much things would change is all of a sudden the governmental unions suddenly lost their guaranteed slush fund. Happy Days Are Here Again.......
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 2:33:56 PM

But, btc1 - are most union jobs in large, huge corporations? Or are most union jobs in small to medium shops? I would venture a guess that it is the latter, but I don't know that for a fact.

I worked at a factory once - oh.. probably 100 - 125 people total. Probably 70%, maybe a bit more were covered by the UAW. They did have a strike once. It lasted some months. They had others (front office people, R&D people) come in and start running it. They got a number of the product lines up and running before the strike ended. But again, management was there to listen to their concerns, though it wasn't privately owned.

I've also seen machine shops, many of them with anywhere from 10 to 50 guys working on lathes, mills and grinders who were unionized. And this was a privately held business. Did they really need a union? I doubted it. It would seem to me that most small businesses, like yours, strive to treat their employees fairly. If they don't, they get a repuatation quickly and only get bad employees. And again, I think your characterization of RTW states as "worse" is one dimensional at best, and inaccurate at worst, as both Flyboy and P19 pointed out.

But again, let the unions PROVE that they benefit both the workers AND the companies they supposedly serve. If they can do that, then they will no doubt survive and flourish. Since they haven't figured out how to do that yet, they will ultimately continue their slow death spiral. Meanwhile, I think we ought to have a national Right to Work law. That will also keep unions more honest in that they can't just take dues off of people and not provide services. And, gocatgo, you can't tell me that doesn't happen, because I've seen it myself. I've seen plenty of examples where the union leaders are using the unions to enrich themselves at their memeberships' expense.
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btc1
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 2:01:17 PM

AC, it is a tax office. It is seasonal. My partner and I plus a couple of preparers work in it during the tax season. Our preparers are treated very well. They get fifty percent of the taxes they do for the clients they bring in. They get 25% on the rest. They see no need to change. If they have a concern about anything they take it to one of the owners, us.

Do employees have that direct communication in large corporations? Not often.

What the article is saying is even in this last recession, the right-to-work states faired better. Michigan is an exception due to its' dependency on the auto industry alone. What would Michigan have been like without the bailout? An economy cannot be dependent on only one sector of the workforce.

[Edited by: btc1 at 12/9/2012 2:04:18 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 1:22:03 PM

Here's a clip from the article: "For an even more inclusive picture of economic vitality, what about looking at the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) for the states in 2010? If we do that, we find that eight of the 10 states with the highest GDP per capita are non-right-to-work states. And when we look at the percent change in GDP in 2010, we discover that of the 10 states with the largest percentage increase, seven were non-right-to-work states. And conversely, seven of the 10 states with the lowest percentage increase (or with a loss) were right-to-work states."

--OK, the "highest GDP per capita".. but I wonder about that. Aren't the labor union states also both more populated AND somewhat more industrialized than the right to work states? And also, are't union states also ones with a higher cost of living, generally, than the non-union, RTW states? Hmmm... I think your argument doesn't work out.

Oh, and, hey, btc1 - if you so beleive in labor unions, why don't you either join one, or invite your employees to unionize? I thought you might have said you have a small business (beyond repairing cars and selling them). If unions are so good, why don't you have one?
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MahopacJack
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 12:59:07 PM

According to a study in 2010, your, "... it seems not so better off" is not correct.

When you adjust the income for Cost of living, your quote does not hold up. Granted this study was done in 2010, but it does show the Right To Work states were much better off than the FORCED Union Membership states during downturn in the economy.
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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 12:33:45 PM

""Between 1995 and 2005, private-sector jobs in Right to Work states increased by a net
20.2%."

I'd be interested to see statistics on how much industrial production intended for export increased during that same period in Communist China. Our economic traitors appear to have been having a field day since their lobbyists persuaded our government to allow them to offshore production on a wholesale basis.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 11:31:06 AM


btc1, "Still, what we are speaking of here is how better off the entire state and its' population is in a non-right to work state. Overall, these states fair better"

See my links below. The population is not better off unemployed at high hourly rates than it is employed at lower hourly rates.

The key is employment.

And Right-To-Work states are better off with regard to employment.

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btc1
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 9:33:19 AM

nstrdnvstr, "btc, so you are NOT pro choice when it comes to "joining" a union?"

It depends. I have been places where unions are needed and then those where it is not needed. Employees are smarter than most give them credit for. If a workplace is so overburdened and is not giving attention to what employees are there for, a better way of life, someone needs to represent them with the employer. Representation, en masse, is the best way to get a point across. Why does each one of us work? To be better off. It does not necessarily have to be a union, but, some sort of a collection of employees. AND, guess what? Unions are not perfect.

Still, what we are speaking of here is how better off the entire state and its' population is in a non-right to work state. Overall, these states fair better.

[Edited by: btc1 at 12/9/2012 9:34:25 AM EST]
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nstrdnvstr
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 8:29:30 AM

btc, so you are NOT pro choice when it comes to "joining" a union?
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e_jeepin
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2012 1:49:49 AM

How about this

The formerly mothballed Lake Orion assembly plant here in Michigan is now home to Chevy Sonic production.

In an agreement with the UAW, it has a mix of traditional UAW workers and approximately 150 part timers who start at about $15 hour.

When the application doors were thrown open, thousands applied for those 150 positions. So telling us that lower wages is bad is total BS. It landed an operation plant vs. not having the plant (and jobs).

Believe it or not, Sonic is the first subcompact car built in the US (for any car company). UAW is starting to use their heads and "NO!" isnt the standard answer anymore.

The UAW may start saying "what do we have to do to open a new plant in Michigan?"


[Edited by: e_jeepin at 12/9/2012 1:53:26 AM EST]
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 11:22:03 PM


KatmanDo, "What about those revered 'job creators', though? Aren't they the ones most likely to make sizeable political donations?"

Speaking of job creators, Right to Work States’ Job-Growth Advantage Widens

"Between 1995 and 2005, private-sector jobs in Right to Work states increased by a net
20.2%. That’s a 79% greater increase than the relatively small increase in private-sector jobs experienced by non-Right to Work states over this period.

But over the five years from 2000 to 2005, private-sector jobs in forced-dues states did not increase at all. Instead, they decreased by 0.8%, with growth since 2002 insufficient to make up for the losses incurred during the recession of 2001. Meanwhile, private-sector jobs in Right to Work states increased by 3.3% between 2000 and 2005"

Right to Work States’ Job-Growth Advantage Widens

"Private-Sector Employment in Forced-Union-Dues States in 2005 Was Still Below 2000 Level"

Evidently, unions protect workers from actually working.

One suspected as much for years, but now it is documented.

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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 10:10:43 PM

"the citizens of right-to-work states are not experiencing the benefits that proponents promise."

Probably not. What about those revered "job creators", though? Aren't they the ones most likely to make sizeable political donations? In some circles, that's what matters the most.
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Wanda127
Champion Author Florida

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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 10:01:16 PM

"All Right to Work says is that you can't be forced to join a union as a condition of taking the job. I thought being able to choose was American."

You right "Bell30012"

Also the Unions were good back in the 60's & 70's but now the states have the laws that protect us & they are not needed like they once were. They just mainly take your money & bully companies now.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 9:28:38 PM


Are people better off in freedom or in bondage?

How does such a question even occur to you?

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