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Author Topic: Why Are The People Of Pennsylvania Not Being Paid For Getting Fracked? Back to Topics
SemiSteve

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Tampa

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Message Posted: Dec 6, 2012 7:21:03 PM

Alaska charges oil companies a royalty which is then dispersed to the residents. This can amount to thousand per person. Every man, woman and child. Seems fair. Why should the oil companies get all the profits of oil pumped from land they lease? Oil which lies beneath the State. It has been a boon to residents. And it has helped the State to not only balance its budget but to have a surplus. Shared wealth derived from exploitation of common natural resources.

Pennsylvania is exploiting common natural resources too. Well sort of. Corporations are doing it in the State. That State has been seeing a lot of fracking since the economics have made it so profitable. Residents have been putting up with issues of questionable water quality, tremendous water usage in the fracking process, water resource depletion, pollution, and industrial impact on their communities. In short, they have put up with a lot because of fracking. There have been protests. But industry has largely won and the gas is flowing and making some very rich. Pennsylvania is the only state without taxation on gas drilling.

It only makes sense that if the people are putting up with all this impact that they should at least be getting something in return. A gas royalty check such as the type each resident of Alaska gets for oil would be appropriate.

Shale tax comes up dry for third year



[Edited by: SemiSteve at 12/6/2012 7:27:03 PM EST]
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2013 4:26:34 PM

HEALTH ALERT

I did not know this.....

When you drink Vodka over ice, it can give you
kidney failure,

When you drink Rum over ice, it can give you liver failure,

When you drink whiskey over ice, it can give you heart problems,

When you drink Gin over ice, it can give you brain problems.

Apparently, ice is really bad for you. .
.
.
.
.
.

.
.
.
.
.I wonder if this was brought to us by the same folks who say fracking is bad?
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 3, 2013 4:11:09 PM

Hey cousin - this will make it all better...
.
>>>Fracking has made it possible to tap into energy reserves across the nation but also has raised concerns about pollution, since large volumes of water along with sand and hazardous chemicals are injected underground to free the oil and gas from rock.

CleanStim is a product by energy giant Halliburton Inc. that uses only food-grade additives. The company says it is working to reduce safety and environmental concerns for both workers and the public.

Two environmental groups say they welcome the development, but still have questions about other issues caused by drilling.<<<

All this talk about long ago relatives - I bet some of mine were Hessians and were over here too.
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Hiram 615
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 10:45:17 PM

"Well cousin --- I bet he didnt do the changing of the laws all by himself did he."

You are correct, cousin. He was aided by his Republican led legislature. Proving once again, Republican politicians have little regard for the public interest vs the interests of their corporate benefactors.



AC-302,

I am proud to say that my GGGG Grandfather served as a sergeant, with the 8th Pennsylvania Regiment, at the battles of Brandywine and Germantown.

[Edited by: Hiram 615 at 2/2/2013 10:49:18 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 8:13:49 PM

Hiram said: "I have lived in this state all my life. My family has owned their land since the Revolutionary War. It was actually received in payment for sevice to the Continental Army. It is located among the early oil fields north of Pgh., near the town of Petrolia, PA."

--Really, how cool is that? I also have about a dozen ancestors who fought in the revolution. I also am a distant, distant cousin of a man whose name appears on the list of 50 "Tories" wanted by the US as traitors AFTER the Revolution was over.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 7:50:33 PM

Well cousin --- I bet he didnt do the changing of the laws all by himself did he. But cheer up you can fix it all after the next election. Just get enough of them other guys in power and change it.

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Hiram 615
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 4:33:12 PM

Flyboy,

I am saying that regulations were in place regarding -----> Marcellus Shale Drilling, and the Corbett Administration REPEALED them in favor of the industry (who btw, were his largest campaign contributors), contrary to the public interest.

I can assure you, Corbett's pouplarity in this state is now very, very low, due to a multitude of missteps.





[Edited by: Hiram 615 at 2/2/2013 4:37:28 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 4:30:07 PM

Hiram - now that would be a real hoot....

I did read your posts. But it seems like your saying all the laws regarding O&G were done by one administration. Really????

I dont understand why the present bunch you have in power there are doing whatever they are doing. Toss them out of office if you like.

Sure does make living in the desert look better and better every day.

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Hiram 615
Champion Author Pittsburgh

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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 4:25:41 PM

I knew you couldn't admit that you were wrong. Did you even read what was posted? Corbett REPEALED what was done and proceeded to work against the public interest in favor of the O&G industry. Hard to believe but true. It is from the same source that YOU used.

----
"Had a father in law who was born and raised there though. His dad was a wildcatter in the western part of the state."


Perhaps we have a mutual relative. Who knows? :)





[Edited by: Hiram 615 at 2/2/2013 4:30:26 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 4:19:33 PM

Heck no I dont live in PA. Had a father in law who was born and raised there though. His dad was a wildcatter in the western part of the state.

Now this guy you dislike so much has been in office how long now? And drilling for O&G has been going on for how long now? And who was the guy in the office just a short time ago?

Maybe you folks should really shake up your whole government back there -- but trying to blame all your troubles on very recent history is kind of silly.
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Hiram 615
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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 3:53:47 PM

Flyboy,

From your link, click on Corett's link:

Natural gas

As governor, Corbett maintains that Pennsylvania should not tax the natural gas industry.[24][25] In February 2011, Corbett repealed a four month old policy regulating natural gas drilling (including hydraulic fracturing) in park land, deeming it "unnecessary and redundant" according to a spokesperson. The Pennsylvania Democratic Party called the repeal a "payoff" to oil and gas interests which donated a million dollars to Corbett's campaign.[26] According to Corbett, "had they not given me a dime, I would still be in this position, saying we need to grow jobs in Pennsylvania".[27]

On February 14, 2012, Corbett signed The Marcellus Shale Law (House Bill 1950).[28] The law changes the zoning laws applicable to Marcellus Shale well drilling, which is more commonly known as hydraulic fracturing. Some of its provisions are that all municipalities must allow Marcellus Shale well drilling in all zoning districts, including residential and municipalities may not limit hours of operation. Water and wastewater pits must also be allowed in all zoning districts, including residential. Compressor stations must be allowed in industrial and agricultural zoning districts and towns may not limit hours of operation. Gas processing plants are allowed in industrial zoning districts and hours of operation cannot be limited. Gas pipelines must be allowed in all zoning districts, including residential.[28] The law helps gain access to land for new pipelines,[29] one of which will transport natural gas from Pennsylvania to export terminals in Maryland,[30][31][32][33] from which it will be shipped to Europe and Asia.[34][35] Others contend that the pipeline's purpose is to transport the gas to Maryland and D.C. markets.[30][36] There are also concerns that exporting natural gas will result in more jobs going overseas, leading to increased unemployment in Pennsylvania and other states as gas prices rise globally.[37]

The Marcellus Shale Law (House Bill 1950) also contains a provision that allows doctors in Pennsylvania access to the list of chemicals in hydraulic fracturing fluid in emergency situations only, but forbids them from discussing this information with their patients.[38] The information can only be used for emergency medical treatment, and the doctor must immediately verbally agree to keep the information confidential and later sign a document to that effect.[39] The bill also reduces the legal responsibility of vendors, service providers, and operators regarding the identity and impact of contents of the hydraulic fracturing fluid they use.[39]

----

Flyboy,
This is not an example of government looking out for the better interests of the public. IMHO

Thanks to the Corbett Administration!

Perhaps now, you will admit that you know not of what you speak in regards to PA! ...but I doubt that will happen. :)

[Edited by: Hiram 615 at 2/2/2013 4:00:11 PM EST]
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Hiram 615
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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 3:42:33 PM

"Are you real sure you family still owns the subsurface rights? Have you ever done a title search?"


Absolutely!


FYI: As I have stated, The deal was made by the Corbett Administration! You would know that if you were from the Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania!

[Edited by: Hiram 615 at 2/2/2013 3:44:16 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 3:33:28 PM

Hiramjust because the state owns some lands taht are presently covered by forests does not automatically mean they own the subsurface rights. Nor does it mean they own all the surface rights. Are you real sure you family still owns the subsurface rights? Have you ever done a title search?

The right to occupy the surface to drill for O&G is separate from the rights to who owns the O&G. The permission to occupy the surface can be granted by the state officers for lands the state owns surface rights on but once more that does not speak as to who actually owns the subsurface rights.

If you think the elected officers are not getting a good deal for you take it up with them. But it does kind of look like you have had a good balance of each party in ofice.

I'm waiting for you to vilify them Democrats who have also been in power.
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Hiram 615
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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 2:09:28 PM

PA State law on mineral rights is being litigated.


"In the current case from Susquehanna County, the local court found, in effect, that the Marcellus Shale is a mineral and that any gas flowing from it also is the property of the mineral owner.

The Superior Court, however, found that state law and the Dunham Rule applied to conventional gas available at the time, rather than to unconventional gas fields such as the Marcellus Shale. It required the lower court to determine whether the Marcellus Shale is a mineral, whether the gas it produces is akin to conventional natural gas, and whether the shale is akin to coal. For coal the rule is that whoever owns the coal owns the methane found with it.

Due to the huge role gas has assumed in the state economy, and the likelihood that the losing party will appeal the decision, the courts should authorize expedited appeals to resolve the matter.

Meanwhile, the case stands as another example of ----->the state government's failure to protect the public interest<------- - in this case in land and mineral rights - before plunging blindly into a major extraction enterprise."


State law still fuzzy on vital mineral rights

Is Marcellus Shale a Mineral? Pa. Court’s Answer Will Affect Gas Rights
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Hiram 615
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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 1:16:24 PM

Flyboy - "Hiram I ask once more - who owns the O&G rights and who owns the Mineral rights? What are the specific laws in that state as to what payment goes where? Supposedly you live in that state - do you know what your laws are?"



"Supposedly"? I have lived in this state all my life. My family has owned their land since the Revolutionary War. It was actually received in payment for sevice to the Continental Army. It is located among the early oil fields north of Pgh., near the town of Petrolia, PA.


FYI:
Depending on the individual property, O&G rights and mineral rights could be owned by different people, as rights to coal seems and shallow O&G wells have been sold or leased in some cases, many years ago.

Personally, my family owns both.

However, In my post, I addressed the state forest land which has been owned by the state.
In case you missed it, ------>"regarding "Who owns the stuff". The residents of PA own the millions of acres of state forests, in which the O&G interests are drilling,..." <---------
Leases for O&G and/or mineral rights have been negotiated with the Pennsylvania Governor and approved by the Legislature.

As I have stated,

"Thanks to the Republican Governor and Legislature, the "poor slobs" in PA getting checks ala Alaska was never a consideration. Gov. Corbett's main concern was keeping the oil and gas industry profitable in the hopes of getting more jobs. (as if taxing the industry in Alaska cost Alaska jobs. What a joke this Governor is!). That is the kind of government you get when you elect Republicans."



I have not villified any companies, just the Republican Gov. and Legislature who have seen fit to give them a sweetheart deal that even Conservative Alaska didn't give them. ...But that is what you get when you elect Republicans.

[Edited by: Hiram 615 at 2/2/2013 1:25:19 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 12:23:01 PM

At one time anything west of Plymouth Rock was western wilderness too but that doesn't change what the maps of the present US show.

They have been using fracking for a long time.
.
>>>When it comes to hydraulic fracturing, or “fracking”, one size does not fit all with respect to regulation, and moratoriums. Most people caught up in the frenzy of opposing fracking, especially in New York, may not realize that there are thousands of wells drilled in New York State, right now, that are fracked every year, and have been going back for the past 60 years. And with no cases of groundwater contamination.<<<

But this topic is on the subject of Steve's allegations that the people who own the O&G rights in one state are not being paid for what they have. I sure do wish Steve woudl come back and try and defend his outlandish accusations.
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 11:03:36 PM

FlyboyUT
Don't forget at one time anything west of ST louis was the west.
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 11:01:24 PM

FlyboyUT
I have no mention of blaming the present folks. The lack of proper regulation in the early part of the last centry is to blame.

Fracking is a new procedure I have no problem with it as a whole but in reality like the abondoned mines, hopefully it is being done with the fore sight of not creating future problems that the folks of P.A. get stuck with.

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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 10:54:50 PM

Streetrider - If the inspectors didnt do thier job in the past why does it seem your blaming the present folks. Just an impression I got.

Yeah I kind of snicker at the name mid west for them. Like when I was a kid in Minnesota they said they were the northwest too.

Like I said if you look at the map it tells the truth. Utah is really the most 'mid western' state. As in being in the middle of the western half of the US states.... Snicker snort chuckle.....
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 10:39:55 PM

FlyboyUT
Dont tell the folks here we are not the mid west. You are right the companies broke the law by the time it would get discovered they would be long gone or emerge as a new company.

For this reason there are now stricter regs and more inspectors.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 10:26:27 PM

Streetrider - thanks for confirming that it is the individual state law that governs. By the way if you look at a map Indiana is not really mid west except to anyone who lives there. In fact this map puts it clearly as mid east - you know in the middle of the eastern half of the US

But if in some states they had laws on how coal mining was to be done and some company broke the law - two questions - where were the state inspectors and why was the company not required to rectify the damage they supposedly did?
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AC-302
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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 10:17:38 PM

SemiSteve crabbed: "I just found it interesting that the good people of Alaska get checks but the poor slobs in PA get fracked."

--By the way, are you aware that Alaska has it in their constitution that they cannot run a surplus? To that end, everyone in AK (men, women and children) gets a mineral rights surplus check. Does PA have a "no surplus" law? And I'm not aware PEOPLE are getting "fracked" as you put it. I prefer to use the correct term of "hydraulic fracturing". And again, so a person who OWNS LAND allows the drilling company rights to their surface and their mineral rights for a fee. What business is it of yours if, say, I choose to allow this. And if I make a buck doing it, isn't that my business??

Also, other than fishing and mineral extraction, what real industry do they have in Alaska? And would you think they have a huge social welfare bureaucracy up there - in a state that has, what? 400,000 people?
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 9:47:37 PM

FlyboyUT
Indiana is not in the eats it is considered the mid west. Yes when you buy land here you own it all.

There will be nobody boreing a coal mine under your property.The land scheme is that many folks dont know what that means is states like P.A. many houses are sitting on top of coal mines and yes they do fall in sink holes.

The coal mines were always to leave a safety layer between the topical earth and the shaft roof. Many mines as they were closing down pulled back out scraping the ceilings bare removing the safety layer.

They went out of business and knew that the wood ties would take years to give in and they would all be long gone.

Now thats a real scheme.
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 9:42:31 PM

Hiram I ask once more - who owns the O&G rights and who owns the Mineral rights? What are the specific laws in that state as to what payment goes where? Supposedly you live in that state - do you know what your laws are?

All this indignation as to some assertions of something being unfair is a bunch of hogwash. Are you and Steve saying the companies are not abiding by state law? Are you saying they are not obeying all the laws and regs place on them by the feds? If they are not why doesn't the state or federal regulators do their job?

But this vilification of companies and an industry without anything but unproven 'feelings' is dumb.
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Hiram 615
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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 8:32:52 PM

"I just found it interesting that the good people of Alaska get checks but the poor slobs in PA get fracked."

Thanks to the Republican Governor and Legislature, the "poor slobs" in PA getting checks ala Alaska was never a consideration. Gov. Corbett's main concern was keeping the oil and gas industry profitable in the hopes of getting more jobs. (as if taxing the industry in Alaska cost Alaska jobs. What a joke this Governor is!). That is the kind of government you get when you elect Republicans.

By the way Flyboy, regarding "Who owns the stuff". The residents of PA own the millions of acres of state forests, in which the O&G interests are drilling, in addition to private lands.


[Edited by: Hiram 615 at 2/1/2013 8:40:18 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 8:07:06 PM

Steve does it make any difference at all to you that who gets the money for production of minerals and O&G is dependent on who owns the stuff and what the state laws are? DOES REALITY EVER MATTER TO A LIBERAL????????

It seems you would rather just make unfounded statements and then say we are messing up the world.

Before you say the natives were doing such a great job look at how many were here and based on how they managed their environment how many could it support and what was the quality of their life.

I assure you that the Chippewa who inhabited Central and Northern Minnesota did not fare too well in a birch bark hut breathing smoke, not bathing for months on end and freezing in -40 degree winters. If they had it so good why was the population so low and average age at death so low.

You are living in the highest standard of living the earth has ever seen and you still whining - crazy. By the way we have heard the doom and gloomers squealing for hundreds of years and we are still here and more of us are living better longer lives than ever.
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 7:44:07 PM

I just found it interesting that the good people of Alaska get checks but the poor slobs in PA get fracked.

Of course we all get fracked, too, because the more fossil fuels we extract and burn the more of our habitat we destroy.

Maybe Native Indians weren't so stupid to live in harmony with the land.

The real problem that nobody wants to admit is that there are already too many people on the planet. We are depleting so many of the things that allow our cushy lives that our way of life is not sustainable.

We have a lot of work to do.

We have to stop expanding human population. We need to pick a number that we think the planet can realistically support. Then we curb birth and allow those who are living now to live out their lives as we approach our magic number.

Then we need to continue heavy science learning and research to learn how to recycle every single thing until we can stop extracting things from the ground and instead make them go full circle.
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wbacon
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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2013 6:40:43 PM

why should this guy care????
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2013 6:35:12 PM

Whatever you do dont use fossile fuels - use biofuels and renewables - they are so muych more ecofriendly - NOT!
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>>>Governments around the world have been pushing policies to lessen dependence on fossil fuels to curb global warming. Yet new research shows that making biofuels from palm tree oil could actually accelerate the effects of global warming.

A team of international scientists examined deforestation of Malaysian peat swamps to make the land suitable for planting palm oil trees which is releasing carbon that was trapped for thousands of years. The carbon becomes penetrated by microbes and release carbon dioxide is released, which is believed to be a major cause of global warming.<<<

Whoops ---- once more he treehuggers are found to have caused more harm than good. I wonder if they will ever learn?
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nstrdnvstr
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2013 11:30:53 PM

If the oil companies are leasing the land, who is getting the lease money, SemiSteve? SOMEONE is getting paid!
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2013 10:44:26 PM

Streetrider - what land scheme are you talking about? The selling of parts of the bundle of landownership rights by previous owners of the land to someone else?

By the way you live in the eastern US - do you own the water rights to your land assuming you own any land? Back east in most cases the water rights have not been separated from the surface rights. Out west in almost all cases water rights are not part of the other rights to the land. I have seen many cases of a nice spring on land where the water rights to the spring are owned by someone else miles away but the guy who owns the land where the spring is cant use any water from it.

In most states the mineral rights and O&G are owned by people other than those who have the surface rights.

Thats the law and how things are - it has nothing to do with some kind of scheme of any kind.

FYI the Indians didnt own the land - they occupied it until someone else threw them off. That someone else might be other tribes or other nations. When people first tried to buy land from them they thought the people were nuts.

[Edited by: flyboyUT at 1/30/2013 10:47:02 PM EST]
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2013 10:30:10 PM

flyboyUT
I am not surprised at all about the great land scheme.
The indians were the last ones to own what they occupied.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2013 5:39:04 PM

Steve if you would put aside your Progressive blinders for a few minutes you might find out that the laws concerning oil and gas rights and ownership along with mineral rights and other landownership rights in states predate any sitting governor.

Do yourself a big favor - know what your talking about before you spout off. This is a good start Steve.



[Edited by: flyboyUT at 1/30/2013 5:40:03 PM EST]
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2013 5:20:14 PM

"Probably because the drillers have a friend in the Governors office. "

--Bing! I think we have an answer...
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Jan 29, 2013 10:15:39 PM

Come to think of it, I wish I were getting bopped...
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Jan 29, 2013 9:42:32 PM

Topic: Why Are The People Of Pennsylvania Not Being Paid For Getting Fracked?

--As soon as I glanced the title I thought: "This sounds like yet another SemiSteve topic.." And I wasn't wrong.

Hmm.. Why is the state of PA not getting paid. Well, have you thought that much like the state of North Dakota, that the places where gas is being extracted are on PRIVATE lands, not public lands? That my be why AK is getting $$ paid to the state and PA is not.
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DriverMatt
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Message Posted: Jan 29, 2013 9:15:42 PM

Probably because the drillers have a friend in the Governors office.
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AFSNCO
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Message Posted: Jan 29, 2013 7:11:25 PM

"If you were to come out west here you would find that water rights are also not part of what most people buy when they buy land."

You beat me to it...was going to say exactly the same thing.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jan 29, 2013 6:26:42 PM

Streetrider - you may be surprised to find out that the mineral rights are held separately in many many states. If you were to come out west here you would find that water rights are also not part of what most people buy when they buy land. The 'bundle' of land ownership rights are all severable depending on what the laws are in the area you live in.

In some areeas you may own the surface rights but if someone else owns the mineral rights they may occupy or move the surface at will. Just depends on what rights you really own and what the laws are.
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Jan 29, 2013 5:31:53 PM

P.A. is one of those states when you buy property you automatically get fracked as you only own the top surface and not the mineral rights unless you also buy them.
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Jan 29, 2013 2:23:27 PM

Wow! You mean that the companies taking oil out of PA haven't paid royalties or taxes on it? How did THAT happen?

Or is the PA government spending it as it comes in?
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streetrider
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Jan 28, 2013 4:38:04 PM

SemiSteve
Said "If Germany can have a day where 50% of thier energy usage is being powered by solar then we can to."

Dont forget the AutoBahn was built in the 30's we didn't get the interstate highways till the late 50's.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

Posts:18,883
Points:395,155
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 3:43:02 PM

AC-302, my biggest objection to fracking is simply that here we are extracting more carbon-laden fossil fuels and burning them because it is easy. We are so drunk with cheap energy that we can't stop to even wonder if it is a good idea in the long run. I think it is not. I have seen the damage of human-caused global warming first hand. If we want to have this many people on the planet (which I also think is a bad idea) we need to get smarter about how we power our conveniences. If Germany can have a day where 50% of their energy usage is being powered by solar then we can do it too.

And please spare me the motive power lecture, OK? I have never once advocated for ending all fossil fuel use. Besides. If you run into to someone who does advocate for that I think you would have a better argument talking about how to power airplanes.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

Posts:18,883
Points:395,155
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Dec 10, 2012 12:43:15 PM

fracknsave,

The site rules covering abuse clearly talk about making personal comments about other GB posters. Jill Kelley is not a GB poster. She is the subject of numerous public news stories. My topic/comments about her may have been seen in poor taste but were not a site rule violation. And, after I was informed by others here that those posts were not well received I broke off posting to that thread.

And even if you thought my posts were a site violation how does that make it suddenly OK for you to also violate site rules? Just because there has been one perceived instance of a rule violation that does not make the rule null and void. Any such reasoning would have to conclude that two wrongs make a right.

There is no way to justify attacking other posters.
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

Posts:30,381
Points:3,360,595
Joined:Aug 2004
Message Posted: Dec 7, 2012 11:32:50 PM

SemiSteve said: "AC-302, I'm not sure why you're even wondering how well I could survive living in AK. I don't recall that being an issue."

--I'm finding your fake indignation to be somewhat humorous. But to answer your question, my point was that you could go up to Alaska, establish residency, and claim your fair share of the profits. But then again, it can get awfully cold up there. It seems to me that the disbursement is, in part, a sweetener to keep the population there.

But if you want to discuss the merits of hydraulic fracturing in mineral extraction, they are many. Fracturing of the formations is used to "stimulate" oil and gas wells. In places like Saudi Arabia, and even in the Permian Basin in Texas, the oil is found in open geological formations - effectively CAVERNS of oil. In place like, say, PA, or even in ND, the formations tend to be "tight". In order to extract the mineral you're looking for in an economical fashion, you need to "break up" the formation. Sometimes it's done with explosives, but more often it's done via putting weight and pressure down the well. And that happens using heavily weighted drilling fluids (supersaturated solutions of compounds like barium sulfate), and what amount to jet engines mounted on trucks. You want those heavy fluids because, despite what you saw in the movie "GIANT", and others, you DO NOT want a gusher. It's wasteful, dangerous (can easily ignite), and environmentally unfriendly.

I think the technique of horizontal drilling has revolutionized the drilling and extraction industry. One well, many pockets of oil or gas. Can't beat that! But back to fracturing - as long as the well casings are built to handle the hydraulic pressures, the water table should never, ever mix wit the oil/gas table. Oil and gas are usually thousands of feet below the water table anyway. Anyway, technology can mitigate this risk.
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fracknsave
Champion Author Grand Rapids

Posts:1,666
Points:58,000
Joined:Mar 2012
Message Posted: Dec 7, 2012 10:11:00 PM

Insult & berate, I'm surprised that words like handout and redistribution and entitlement aren't worn as badges of pride for those who worship such, instead of necklaces of insult and beration.
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michaelphoenix2
All-Star Author Tucson

Posts:887
Points:12,080
Joined:Nov 2012
Message Posted: Dec 7, 2012 9:21:03 PM

fracknsave---how many public forums have you visited (other than 4chan) that you can berate and insult a poster specifically?

He is right....attack his argument NEVER the poster
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fracknsave
Champion Author Grand Rapids

Posts:1,666
Points:58,000
Joined:Mar 2012
Message Posted: Dec 7, 2012 8:42:06 PM

Me thinks a certain somebody can dish it out but can't hack it.

"Gotta Have A Jill Kelley Thread. We Owe It To Ourselves. Diplomatic Immunity? Ha Ha Ha!"

What is one to do when that certain somebody starts a thread about a 'person'ality of that certain somebody? Seems like he has opened the door to discussions of this person, no?

"Why I Am Voting For Obama - Straight Talk, No BS."

Also, you may have discussions with your lib buddies, but since your views of the political climate in the US remains unchanged based on the incessant references to handouts, redistribution, and entitlements, you merely have debates, replete with your talking points when having your 'discussions' with those whom you disagree.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

Posts:18,883
Points:395,155
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Dec 7, 2012 6:41:02 PM

fracknsave, By talking about me and taking it upon yourself to make up names for me you have just made it personal. Personal attacks are not permitted on this well-moderated site. Please refrain from making personal attacks. An apology would be in order here. I am not the topic. My GB handle is not the topic.

Since you have never attacked me before, I did not report this abuse this time. However, I did make a copy of your post and saved it to my files for future use. If this continues the subsequent abuse report will include all instances.

I would entertain a discussion about the merits of fracking and the distribution of the generated profits, but said discussion would have to entail ideas and thoughts within the topic at hand, NOT other posters.
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fracknsave
Champion Author Grand Rapids

Posts:1,666
Points:58,000
Joined:Mar 2012
Message Posted: Dec 7, 2012 3:52:03 PM

Looks like we're going to have to change SS to ES (Entitlement Steve) or RDS (Re-Distribution Steve) or HS (Handout Steve) You'd almost think that the Communism or Socialism Utopias would have a working model somewhere by now.
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Hiram 615
Champion Author Pittsburgh

Posts:23,658
Points:2,957,850
Joined:May 2004
Message Posted: Dec 7, 2012 2:16:57 PM

"Maybe because the citizens of the state dont want the tax on producers Steve. If they wanted it they could vote it in for sure."

The citizens of Pennsylvania had no referendum on the subject. Deals were cut with Gov. Corbett and Republican run government in Harrisburg. It was all a done deal.
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