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Author Topic: Does Israel have the right to strike back at Gaza? Back to Topics
jacka123

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Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2012 6:04:45 PM

Much to my surprise, only 41% of democrats said yes, that Israel's military action against Gaza is justified, according to a report on CNN. 74% of Republicans said yes, and 59% of Independents said yes. I can't understand why the democrats would not support Israel, kind of tells me, they must be a little out of touch with foreign affairs, and I guess that really doesn't surprise me too much.



[Edited by: jacka123 at 11/19/2012 6:09:34 PM EST]
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owt
Champion Author Tennessee

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Message Posted: Dec 2, 2012 3:21:05 PM

YES, why not, if someone is attacking me.....not just going to stand there, look for a fight.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Nov 29, 2012 12:23:02 PM


freedom27, "One of the two countries has to be the bigger one and not retaliate"

Up to this point that has been the Jews - they have suffered thousands of rockets from Gaza without retaliating and have only retaliated when the buildup of Palestinian armaments has reached a critical mass or when they have been armed with more dangerous weapons like the long range Iranian rockets recently.

The Israelis stopped their building activity in their own areas and tore down Israeli settlements in disputed areas to encourage peace talks, and got only more attacks and a halt in negotiations as a result.

The war will not stop until the Arabs lose their hatred for the Jews and their wish to exterminate them.

The Arabs have never given an inch, and likely will not in this life until they get the kind of shock the Japs got in WWII. The pain must be overwhelming before it will moderate their hatreds.

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LTVibe
Champion Author Orlando

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Message Posted: Nov 29, 2012 11:30:18 AM

As long as Hamas rules the Palestinians, there will never be permanent peace in the Mideast:

The Hamas Charter

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it; just as it obliterated others before it…The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Resurrection Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up…There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

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freedom27
Champion Author Calgary

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Message Posted: Nov 29, 2012 11:20:11 AM

One of the two countries has to be the bigger one and not retaliate. They have accomplished nothing for decades of bloodshed.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Nov 29, 2012 11:08:01 AM


AC-302, "But then again, Arafat himself said to his own people to ignore anything he says in the English press. The Arabic press is where his truth would be laid out"

It might be useful for YDraigGoch to bear this in mind when speaking to his Palestinian friends:

"Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good'.

Unfortunately, when dealing with Muslims, one must keep in mind that Muslims can communicate something with apparent sincerity, when in reality they may have just the opposite agenda in their hearts. Bluntly stated, Islam permits Muslims to lie anytime that they perceive that their own well-being, or that of Islam, is threatened.

The principle of sanctioning lying for the cause of Islam bears grave implications in matters relating to the spread of the religion of Islam in the West. Muslim activists employ deceptive tactics in their attempts to polish Islam's image and make it more attractive to prospective converts. They carefully try to avoid, obscure, and omit mentioning any of the negative Islamic texts and teachings.

An example of Islamic deception is that Muslim activists always quote the passages of the Quran from the early part of Mohammed's ministry while living in Mecca. These texts are peaceful and exemplify tolerance towards those that are not followers of Islam. All the while, they are fully aware that most of these passages were abrogated (cancelled and replaced) by passages that came after he migrated to Medina. The replacement verses reflect prejudice, intolerance, and endorse violence upon unbelievers

In conclusion, it is imperative to understand, that Muslim leaders can use this loop-hole in their religion, to absolve them from any permanent commitment. It is also important to know that what Muslim activists say to spread Islam may not always be the whole truth. When dealing with Muslims, what they say is not the issue. The real issue is, what they actually mean in their hearts"


[Edited by: Panama19 at 11/29/2012 11:10:06 AM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 29, 2012 8:37:38 AM

Ydraig - LTVibe's post immediately beneath mine shows what I'm trying to point out. Sure, the Israelis will attack known radicals who are fomenting terror (hint: they get good intel from other Palestinians). They will also attack sites where missiles are shot off. But the Palestinians will blow themselves up in marketplaces, snipe at WOMEN AND CHILDREN who are minding their own business walking down the street, and even attack innocent individuals in their own homes. Understand that when you make responses indicating that Israel is at fault and the Palestinians are "good guys", this is EXACTLY what YOU are DEFENDING. Sorry, friend. The Palestinians do NOT have a moral cause, and are not using moral methods to further their cause of "peace" (I use quotes and true and lasting peace with their neighbor seems to be exactly what they DON'T want). Actions speak louder than words. But then again, Arafat himself said to his own people to ignore anything he says in the English press. The Arabic press is where his truth would be laid out.
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LTVibe
Champion Author Orlando

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Message Posted: Nov 29, 2012 8:29:53 AM

The conflict on a smaller scale...

Mother of four fends off intruder from Gaza

"A disaster was averted on Monday when a mother of four managed to fend off a Palestinian attacker who had broken into her home after infiltrating Israel from the Gaza Strip. The attacker was shot and killed by Israeli soldiers after he fled the woman's house in the Gaza border community of Sde Avraham."

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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 27, 2012 10:12:36 PM

Ydraig argued, falsely: "The intransigence of the Israelis is the cultural problem. The average Palestinian wants to live in peace, and would welcome some sort of sign from Israel. But building settlements on PALESTINIAN land is not the sign they are looking for."

--OK, so are you saying that the very basis for Israel is a false one? Hmm... who's land is it, historically? Hmm.. Jewish folks have lived there for at least 4000 years. The Palestinians? Well, their language is linguistically like that of Syria, so I have to believe they were infiltrators, in fact. If the average Palestinians wants peace and to live in peace, then why did they vote Hamas in in Gaza? And why do they send rockets into Israel when they haven't been attacked? Nope, your arguments don't wash. And why do the so-called "Peace loving" Palestinians not marginalize their radicals, rather than revering them? I think until the Palestinians agree and become enamored with life, rather than death, then the problem will continue. And as BTC1 pointed out, all the intelligent Palestinians who could get out, already got out.
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LTVibe
Champion Author Orlando

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Message Posted: Nov 27, 2012 9:55:58 AM

>>>The same Persian nation that was a close ally of Adolf Hitler. And they are supplying weapons to Arab culture, which also supported Hitler in WWII.<<<

Admiration for 'der Führer' is still alive and well:

Extremely disturbing Facebook posts

"...Hitler and his genocide are wildly popular in countries like Turkey and Egypt, where Mein Kampf is a perennial bestseller."

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ihuey99
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:58:45 PM

Of course... Israel has every right to defend herself against attacks.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:40:07 PM


YDraigGoch, "Man, talk about anti Semitism. Not to mention the ignorance of right wing politics. It is the PERSIAN culture that currently is supplying Hamas with weapons and political support"

The same Persian nation that was a close ally of Adolf Hitler. And they are supplying weapons to Arab culture, which also supported Hitler in WWII.

"During World War II he [Muhammad Amin al-Husayni] actively collaborated with both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, meeting Adolf Hitler personally and asking him to back Arab independence. He requested, as part of the Pan-Arab struggle, Hitler's support to oppose the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish national home"

Splitting hairs semantically to try to prove that the Arab culture is not at the heart of the problems in the Mideast is foolish, but it is a ploy commonly resorted to on the left.

The Israelis have consistently given more to the cause of peace than anyone in the area, but have been met with the Arabs' (and Persians') implacable hatred over many years.

The amazing thing to me is the way the left is attracted to the thinking of the Nazis and against the victims of the holocaust - even to the point of blaming the Jews for the problems in the area.

Birds of a feather, one assumes.

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turbosaab
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 7:27:53 PM

YDG: "The intransigence of the Israelis is the cultural problem."

Horse excrement.

""Palestinian refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state stands at the root of the struggle and behind every so-called core issue, from determining borders to resolving the dispute over Palestinian refugees." Since signing the Oslo accords, they explain, the Palestinians have pursued "two complementary approaches" to dealing with Israel, "one that rejects Israel outright and another that accepts Israel as a political entity but continues to refuse to accept its character as the homeland of the Jewish people." In other words, the Palestinians have, on parallel tracks, pursued an explicitly rejectionist approach and an implicitly rejectionist approach."

YDG: "The average Palestinian wants to live in peace, and would welcome some sort of sign from Israel. But building settlements on PALESTINIAN land is not the sign they are looking for."

Horse excrement.

"Over 60 percent reject “two states for two peoples.”
A one-state Palestinian solution is favored by a majority.
Two-thirds believe the real goal should be to move to a single Palestinian state.
Seventy-two percent think it is right to deny a Jewish presence going back thousands of years in Jerusalem.
Sixty-two percent favor kidnapping Israeli soldiers and holding them hostage.
Sixty-one percent approve naming streets after a suicide bomber.
Fifty-three percent favor teaching songs and chants to schoolchildren that talk about hating Jews.
Only a plurality thinks the Itamar killings were wrong; 29 percent think they were right.
Ninety-two percent think Jerusalem should be the capital of Palestine; only 3 percent favor a joint capital."

YDG: "Want to stop Hamas? Make peace with the Palestinians, and neutralize the only reason Hamas exists in the first place."

So, you think that the elected representatives of the Israeli people should by-pass the elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people to eliminate the reason for the elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people to exist? Horse excrement.

"The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take.""


[Edited by: turbosaab at 11/26/2012 7:31:10 PM EST]
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YDraigGoch
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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 6:44:44 PM

The Arab culture must be destroyed one way or another.

Man, talk about anti Semitism. Not to mention the ignorance of right wing politics.

It is the PERSIAN culture that currently is supplying Hamas with weapons and political support. Look it up.So, the people who have lived there for 12000 years are to be destroyed so that your favorite invaders can live in peace? That sounds like what Edward and the English invaders did to my people some centuries back.

The intransigence of the Israelis is the cultural problem. The average Palestinian wants to live in peace, and would welcome some sort of sign from Israel. But building settlements on PALESTINIAN land is not the sign they are looking for.

Want to stop Hamas? Make peace with the Palestinians, and neutralize the only reason Hamas exists in the first place.

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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 6:21:25 PM


sgm4law, "So, Panama, are you advocating genocide?"

Consider the Japanese solution in WWII; it was short of genocide, but the warrior culture was destroyed along with the will to resist.

In the case of the Palestinians this would mean the end of self-rule and the imposition of a peaceful culture against their will for at least three generations.

The present day terrorist culture is beyond reform and must be held in captivity until it dies out; the second generation will also be incapable of self-rule, as they will be likely to slip back into terrorism. The third generation, if the society is held in peace and prosperity until they are adults, will have some potential of self-rule as the memory of anti-Semitic hatred dies out with the previous generations and the people have too much prosperity that they are unwilling to lose in endless war against their Jewish neighbors.

In any case, for peace to come to the area, the Arab culture must be eliminated one way or the other. Genocide would also do the trick.

The alternative to eliminating the Arab culture will be WWIII when the Arabs gain nuclear capability and make nuclear suicide attacks on Israel.


[Edited by: Panama19 at 11/26/2012 6:28:50 PM EST]
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jeskibuff
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 5:55:42 PM

sgm4law said: "So, Panama, are you advocating genocide?"

All you have to do to answer that question is to read what Panama19 wrote earlier: "I think that the result of opening the borders with the Palestinians would be the same as opening the gates of a maximum security prison and letting the prisoners run freely in society. Good for the prisoners, bad for everyone else."

In other words, until the attitudes change, the Palestinians will need to be confined to their "prison". If their anti-Israel hatred persists (and it will) and their armaments increase to the point of being a serious threat to Israel, then harsher action will need to be taken. The Muslims don't seem to get it, so those harsher actions will most likely eventually materialize.
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turbosaab
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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 5:26:17 PM

NickHammer: "Turbo, can you please show us this "smaller footprint" compared to what Israel was "originally promised"?"

Let's start with the 1920 Mandate for Palestine.

Between 1920 and 1947, more than 80% of that promised land was taken away, but it was still larger than it is today.
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LTVibe
Champion Author Orlando

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 11:39:34 AM

>>Considering that the existence of the Palestinian culture is the source of the problem...<<

I would have said 'Islamic' instead of 'Palestinian'. Using the word 'Islamic' would include all of Shia and Sunni Islam, not just the Palestinians.

Anti-Semitism is rampant in Islam throughout the Mideast.

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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:52:46 AM

<<Considering that the existence of the Palestinian culture is the source of the problem, the elimination of that culture - by war or by peaceful means - is the only road to peace in the region.>>

<<And peaceful means have shown not a whit of hope in the past 64 years, and they show no more hope in the future.>>

So, Panama, are you advocating genocide?
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NickHammer
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:36:32 AM

>>As Israel continues to grab land that does not belong to them...<<

YDG, can you please show us all the land that Israel "continues to grab"?

>>Israel is a sovereign nation and a member of the United Nations. She now exists on a smaller footprint than she was originally promised.<<

Turbo, can you please show us this "smaller footprint" compared to what Israel was "originally promised"?
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:10:14 AM


LTVibe, "Yes it was. Too bad the cease fire agreement didn't mention anything about Iran rearming Gaza..."

Don't be surprised if the shipment blows up enroute.

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KansasGunman
Champion Author Kansas

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 8:55:08 AM

Israel being a sovereign nation doesn't have to ask permission from anyone in defending itself.

Muslims aught to be down on their hands and knees kissing the dessert facing Mecca with their backside in the air pointing to the Eastern Star thanking Mohammad that I'm not in charge.

For every rocket launched into Israel I'd obliterate a Mosque...there would be chunks Muslim cleric raining from the sky over Gaza and I'm betting it wouldn't take too long for them to figure things out.
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LTVibe
Champion Author Orlando

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 8:20:16 AM

Panama19: "...it was the long range Iranian rockets in Gaza that brought on the latest Israeli bombing strikes to get rid of them."

Yes it was. Too bad the cease fire agreement didn't mention anything about Iran rearming Gaza...

Satellites show Iran moving quickly to rearm Hamas

Oh, and Iran's 'Führer' is shooting off his mouth again...

Ahmadinejad again calls to "wipe Israel off the map"

"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that resolving the Palestinian issue does not need war, but requires a unified Islamic decision to remove the Zionist entity off the map."

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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 4:14:00 PM



AC-302, "That's just silly, liberal propaganda, that is not backed by reality"

Isn't that statement triple redundant?



[Edited by: Panama19 at 11/23/2012 4:18:28 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:26:27 PM

ydraiggoch also said: "Heck, many of you don't even want to see the other party have a say in things, let alone a horde of foreigners."

--Yeah, you're right. The Democrats, particularly the liberal Dems are trying like crazy to shut out any republican influence from anything. Just look at ObamaCare. Republicans were literally locked out of the committee rooms. And why cannot or will not Harry Reid allow a budget to be voted on from the Senate? And isn't that against the law?

But back to point - the representatives of the Palestinians do their people a disservice. They seem to be propagating war for the purpose of enriching themselves (the "leaders", that is). And the other thing you seem to be ignoring is the morality of the cause. The Israelis have always said: "Come live with us in peace and be our neighbors and fellow citizens." The Palestinians have said: "Nope, you go away. And not only that, we're going to kill all Jews everywhere." Peace could have happened ten times over, but for the Palestinian intolerance of even the existence of Jewish Israelis. And their religious beliefs seem to fan the flames of hatred. I've heard no such thing from Jewish folks against Muslims nor Palestinians.

I get the liberal and American tendency to want to favor and root for the underdog. I get it. But do not confuse being the underdog in this case with that underdog having a moral cause. In this case, their cause is not moral, and this is one reason they are the underdog.

[Edited by: AC-302 at 11/23/2012 2:34:42 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:23:49 PM

ydraig - I agree with turbosaab. Your comment shows that you have no concept of what is going on. If Israel were expansionist, and they are not, then why did they give Sinai back? Why did they basically vacate both Gaza and the West Bank and allow for local control?

Now, you could make an argument for the Golan heights. However, TWICE (or perhaps thrice) Syria used that land to shell Israel. Israel couldn't allow Syria to have control of that land, because they would militarize it and pound Israel from it, much like Hamas does from Gaza. They had to be stopped and taking that land out of Syrian control was the only way to do it. There are also some adjacent lands called the Shabaa Farms, that originally were part of Syria, but now Syria wants to claim that it's Lebanon, and now the Lebanese are saying the same thing. That probably can be returned, and at some point will be. But again, how can you claim Israel is expansionist when they have never sought to expand their territory? That's just silly, liberal propaganda, that is not backed by reality.
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turbosaab
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 12:54:13 PM

YDG: "As Israel continues to grab land that does not belong to them, the question really becomes "Do the Palestinians have the right to strike back at Israel?""

Israel is a sovereign nation and a member of the United Nations. She now exists on a smaller footprint than she was originally promised. Since 1967, Israel has only expanded her borders as a result of wars of aggression *against* her. Furthermore, Israel has returned land in the mistaken belief that it would lead to peace. Gaza is Jew-free! Please tell me where "Israel continues to grab land that does not belong to them". You have absolutely no concept of history or fairness.
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YDraigGoch
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 10:35:07 AM

As Israel continues to grab land that does not belong to them, the question really becomes "Do the Palestinians have the right to strike back at Israel?"

If the UN decided to take pity on millions of starving Africans and give them half of the United States, how many of you would sit back and meekly accept it?

Heck, many of you don't even want to see the other party have a say in things, let alone a horde of foreigners.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 9:41:28 AM


MrCyclist, "I have yet to meet a Palestinian who thinks the way you present them. I'm fluent in Arabic and have had lengthy conversations in both languages with Palestinians of all ages, most of them second generation or ex-pats. They are a peace loving people, at least in my experience"

There is a vast difference between talk and actions, if this is the case. In practice, the only peace that they love is the peace of the grave.

We love death more than you love life!

"Hassan Nasrallah employed the phrase in a 2004 interview to explain why Hizballah, the organization he heads, is destined to prevail over Israel:

'The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.' How to understand this macabre sentiment? Martyrdom has played an important role in Islam since its inception, and a number of chapters in the Quran mention the rewards of those who fight and die for God"

And this from their own mouths - not words we put into them.

"As phoenix pointed out, the Israel - Palestine situation is a self perpetuating problem, though obviously napalming the region is not the solution, and just makes you sound ridiculous"

Considering that the existence of the Palestinian culture is the source of the problem, the elimination of that culture - by war or by peaceful means - is the only road to peace in the region.

And peaceful means have shown not a whit of hope in the past 64 years, and they show no more hope in the future.

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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 9:23:45 AM


michaelphoenix2, "However you have to realize its a self perpetuating cycle. The Israelis blockade Gaza, Hamas retaliates because of the blockade, Israel sends bombers, Gaza gets more desperate and launches more attacks against civilians, Israel launches a ground invasion, etc....

Where does it stop. How can you say its ONLY Hamas. Both sides are at fault for their never ending hatred for each other and NEITHER side actually wants to see it stop"

Consider the alternative for Israel - to open the borders and allow the Palestinians to import all of the weapons they wish, paid for by their Arab neighbors with all of the oil wealth at their disposal.

Do you seriously think that this would end better for the Israelis, or would it be more likely to end with a second holocaust?

I think that the result of opening the borders with the Palestinians would be the same as opening the gates of a maximum security prison and letting the prisoners run freely in society. Good for the prisoners, bad for everyone else.

Arab hatred is behind the troubles in the Mideast, and peace will never occur as long as that is the case. The Arabs backed the Nazis in WWII and haven't changed their thinking in the intervening years.

Unfortunately for the Israelis, that is the neighborhood they live in.


[Edited by: Panama19 at 11/23/2012 9:25:37 AM EST]
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jeskibuff
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Nov 22, 2012 6:16:01 AM

michaelphoenix2 said: "NEITHER side actually wants to see it stop."

How wrong you are. Israel has tried for decades to live in peace with her neighbors, but all those neighbors want to do is exterminate her. Every time Israel decides to give the Arabs concessions, it backfires on them. The latest such move was getting out of Gaza. You can see how thankful the Palestinians were for that! They even destroyed infrastructure like greenhouses that Israel left behind for their own benefit. The Palestinians have been bred from infancy to hate Israel. They have created their own perpetual self-destruction mechanism.
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jeskibuff
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Nov 22, 2012 6:09:00 AM

Panama19 said: "If they vote for terrorists, doesn't that say something about the Palestinians themselves?"

The world's nations seem to be on a binge of electing extremely poor choices. The Palestinians chose poorly. France chose poorly. Venezuela chose poorly. The U.S. has chosen poorly. There goes the neighborhood!
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MrCyclist
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Nov 22, 2012 12:52:10 AM

Well I really don't have much more to say on the issue as many of the points I would have brought up have already been brought up. Entertain me for a moment while I tell you about an anecdote. I have yet to meet a Palestinian who thinks the way you present them. I'm fluent in Arabic and have had lengthy conversations in both languages with Palestinians of all ages, most of them second generation or ex-pats.

They are a peace loving people, at least in my experience. The problem is that all we ever see of the Palestinian people is presented through the filter of Hamas or the PLO. I have problems with both organizations, though much more so with Hamas. I don't agree with their methods, and I think Israel has ever right to strike back and cripple Hamas. They are not representative of the Palestinian people. As phoenix pointed out, the Israel - Palestine situation is a self perpetuating problem, though obviously napalming the region is not the solution, and just makes you sound ridiculous.

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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 11:00:31 PM

I agree that the fool Palestinians need to decide as a people to 1)marginalize their radicals and 2) take after the Northern Irish people and decide that they're sick of killing and being killed. If that happens, peace will break out all over, and won't that be a glorious day for everyone?

mp2 - NO, you're completely and totally wrong. Israel does not "utterly hate" the Palestinians. Neither do Jews in America hate the Palestinians. In fact, there's a heck of a lot of sympathy for them both here and in Israel. Obviously they're being misrepresented by their leadership, who use that "economic development" money to enrich themselves. Arafat had it socked away in Swiss banks. But getting back to your point - Israel has all kinds of interest in making peace with all of their neighbors. It's called "survival". They have ALWAYS been interested in peaceful coexistence in their neighborhood, but the bullies around them have been the problem. And they're more than willing to stand up to the bully and "knock their block off", if that's what it takes. But, no. If Israel hates Palestinians, then why are there so many of them that live in Israel as full citizens, with voting rights?

Here now. Did you know that there are basic math textbooks out there that the Palestinians have printed that have word problems such as: "If you take 7 Jews hostage, and kill three, how many are left?" Do you think you see any such thing for Israeli math texts? And again, Panama19 is telling you the story, if you're willing to listen. If not for the suicide bombers, the security fence would never have been built. And if not for the terrorism and attacks, Gaza wouldn't be blockaded, the could have set up a port complex, and they could have set up trade. The problem is that they have brought in munitions and chosen to attack Israel without real provocation. Israel has the right to protect itself from Gaza, and their sea access is also under Israeli territorial waters. Sure they have the right to blockade, and I'm glad they do. But for that, Hamas would have already got a nuke, or maybe larger rockets or naval guns, and shot them off at Israel.

Say, wouldn't it be ironic if the Hamas fools managed to send one of their rockets right into the Al Aqsa mosque on the Temple Mount? If that mosque falls, it will immediately become the site of the new Hebrew 3rd Temple. In one sense, it would be poetic justice if the Palestinians did it to themselves!
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michaelphoenix2
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 10:47:17 PM

Panama you are correct.

However you have to realize its a self perpetuating cycle. The Israelies blockade Gaza, Hamas retaliates because of the blockade, Israel sends bombers, Gaza gets more desperate and launches more attacks against civilians, Israel launches a ground invasion, etc....

Where does it stop. How can you say its ONLY Hamas. Both sides are at fault for their never ending hatred for each other and NEITHER side actually wants to see it stop.
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Panama19
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 10:42:09 PM


michaelphoenix2, "HOWEVER Israel is not entirely innocent in the whole matter. They have had the entire region under blockade for years"

They have had the area under blockade in order to stop the shipment of weapons into the Palestinian areas that would be used against Israel. Even with the blockade the Palestinians tunnel under the border to bring weapons into Gaza; it was the long range Iranian rockets in Gaza that brought on the latest Israeli bombing strikes to get rid of them.

The wall erected between the West Bank and Israel was built to keep Palestinian suicide bombers out of Israel. The Israeli check points that keep the Palestinians from freely moving about serve the same purpose.

However, if the Palestinians were not continually trying to kill Israelis none of these things would be necessary.

Israel has tried on numerous occasions to work out peace with its neighbors, and has given back much of the land it took when beating off Arab attacks in an attempt to exchange the land for peace. Unfortunately, they gave up the land but did not get the peace promised by the Palestinians.

The West Bank and Gaza are treated like prisons because of the behavior of the inhabitants. We have prisons in this country for the same reasons - for the protection of the innocents from the criminals that prey on them.


[Edited by: Panama19 at 11/21/2012 10:46:24 PM EST]
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 10:21:17 PM

Obviously Israel has the right to defend itself. Hamas is carrying out an illegal action by using rockets to target civilians. That's against the Geneva convention, not that they care about any UN sanctions against them. But the UN is terribly biased against Israel, and the Palestinians and Arab League use that to the fullest extent.

Now, as FlyboyUT points out, it is common practice for Hamas to place munitions storage in places like police stations, hospitals and even elementary schools. That way, if Israel does bomb them, they have more propaganda against them to report. And our fool media feeds right into it. Anderson Cooper was a PRIME example of media blindness and stupidity. And he refuses to admit on TV that he was duped and the Palestinians were lied to him.

And Mr.Cyclist - was it in '94 or '96 at Oslo, when Ehud Barak negotiated with Yassir Arafat? Both men negotiated and gave perhaps more than they should have - it would have been 98% of what the Palestinians wanted with the rest (Jerusalem) up for negotiation. Guess what? ARAFAT and the Palestinians walked away from the table. Why? I can guess that if Peace broke out, then Arafat would no longer have a job and would no longer have been prominent before his people. He would have made himself an anachronism. Like I say, the Palestinians could have settled this 20 years ago or so, had they wanted to. But instead, they seem to want war, rather than peace. That's sad for everyone on both sides.
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michaelphoenix2
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 10:14:38 PM

First off let me say this upfront Israel has every right to defend itself and attempt to stop attacks on its own civillian population even violently if need be. Hamas has NO RIGHT whatsoever to launch attacks on civillians.

HOWEVER Israel is not entirely innocent in the whole matter. They have had the entire region under blockade for years. The population is frustrated and cut off from the rest of the world. Eventually there has to be an outlet for that frustration and Israel is the cause of the blockade and the target for centuries of hate. The only natural response is through violence.

We are talking about two sides that have no real interest in seeking a true peace. Their only real common goal is their complete and utter hatred for each other.

As much as Hamas is completely out of line in attacking Israeli civilians, Israel is not completely innocent here either.

[Edited by: michaelphoenix2 at 11/21/2012 10:15:19 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 9:59:15 PM

Arent some things supposed to be over the top and not done - even in a terrorist lead war.
.
>>>There is only one thing worse than the image of a child killed by military conflict, and that is the image of a child killed by military conflict having deliberately been placed in the line of fire.

War is, by definition, a very nasty business, and invariably it is the innocents on all sides who bear a significant cost in lives lost, people maimed and communities traumatized.

But solid evidence now reveals how Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza have been deliberately placing their civilian population in mortal danger, choreographing a number of seemingly gory scenes, as well as releasing images from other conflicts, such as Iraq and Syria, and passing them off as dead Gazan civilians killed by Israeli missiles.

In an attempt to persuade the world that Israel is committing war crimes and to distract attention away from the illegal and immoral use of their own population as human shields, Hamas has resorted to staging a number of fake deaths and scenes of severely injured people right in front of international TV crews.

The BBC recently broadcast a news report showing a man being carried off by four others, seemingly the victim of an Israeli missile strike, only for him to reappear in the same clip a few seconds later wandering around completely unharmed. The same organization’s Jon Donnison yesterday re-tweeted a picture of the dead body of a young girl on a stretcher in Gaza with the headline "Heartbreaking," only for it to transpire that the girl had sadly been killed three weeks earlier in Syria.<<<

Oh yeah them Hamas lead 'freedom fighters' are the good guys - only on the planet Dumbo.
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rgpiccone
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 9:00:59 PM

Panama19: "As I recall, the Palestinians were out cheering in the streets and passing out sweets when the twin towers came down"

Unfortunately, you recall correctly. They were also dancing in the streets. They would undoubtedly cheer nuclear weapons detonating over our cities also. You can't appease them, you can't negotiate with them (at least not successfully). All we and Israel can do is fight back to contain them, and hope that their attitudes eventually change before World War III happens.
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Panama19
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 8:38:00 PM


MrCyclist, "Hamas is particularly popular among the electorate because of their social welfare programs"

Right. And men read Playboy for the articles.

As I recall, the Palestinians were out cheering in the streets and passing out sweets when the twin towers came down, and the Palestinians also revere those who strap on bombs and walk into public gathering places to set them off and kill as many women and children as possible.

The Palestinians raise their children on hatred of the Jews and there will never be peace in the region as long as this is the case.

The Palestinians elected Hamas because Hamas represents their thinking. The Palestinians are terrorists in their hearts and do not want peace as long as Israel exists.

And the "disputed territories" are only in dispute because the Arabs tried to exterminate the Jews and lost land in the process. Now they want the land back but they still want to exterminate the Jews.

The world would be a more peaceful place if the Israelis treated the Palestinians the way the Palestinians treat the Israelis. But the Israelis are too civilized to sink to that level, and so the nagging problem lives on.

One day the Arabs will bring on a nuclear holocaust that will involve the entire world.

Carpet bombing and napalm of Gaza and the West Bank would involve less overall loss of life than the world will see if it does not clean out that nest of vipers.

I just hope that WWIII waits until I am no longer around.

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MrCyclist
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 5:06:17 PM

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Palestinians in Gaza elect Hamas?

If they vote for terrorists, doesn't that say something about the Palestinians themselves?"

Hamas is particularly popular among the electorate because of their social welfare programs. The Palestinian authority simply didn't offer the same deal, and when you have nothing, having simply is awfully attractive. Programs include funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and they even offer a one time grant of $500 - $5000 dollars in the event their house is destroyed by the IDF.

I know exactly where you're going with that, and I ask, should we napalm them too?
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Panama19
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 10:52:52 AM


jeskibuff, "Oh, they're really nice people, deep down, Panama! You're just inappropriately judging them!"

It is amazing that the people who fire hundreds of rockets into neighboring cities then act as if they were unjustly attacked when those neighbors knock out their rocket storage dumps.

One is reminded of the man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan.

The truly most astounding comments have come from the Europeans who have criticized the Israelis recently for their "disproportionate response" in killing more Palestinian attackers than the number of Israelis that were killed by the Palestinian rockets.

The Palestinians make a good case for the need for napalm and carpet bombing, IMHO.

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sgm4law
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 8:37:13 AM

Yes, they do. Why did they wait so long?
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jeskibuff
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 6:53:17 AM

Panama19 said: "If they vote for terrorists, doesn't that say something about the Palestinians themselves?"

Oh, they're really nice people, deep down, Panama! You're just inappropriately judging them!
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Ladygator2007
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 6:24:30 AM

Of course they have the right to fight back.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2012 12:29:12 AM


MrCyclist, "I've also stated the Hamas is a terrorist organization that shouldn't be recognized as a legitimate Palestinian authority"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Palestinians in Gaza elect Hamas?

If they vote for terrorists, doesn't that say something about the Palestinians themselves?

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eldiablopoco
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2012 11:24:04 PM

They should Nuke each other then we can move on to more important things such as the economy!
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RNorm
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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2012 4:30:14 PM

"Much to my surprise, only 41% of democrats said yes, that Israel's military action against Gaza is justified, according to a report on CNN. 74% of Republicans said yes, and 59% of Independents said yes. I can't understand why the democrats would not support Israel, kind of tells me, they must be a little out of touch with foreign affairs, and I guess that really doesn't surprise me too much."




I think you should stop relying on polling and actually talk to real people.

I thought you would have learned from the recent election losses.

I guess old habits and preferred stereotypes are hard to break?
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nraacct
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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2012 4:18:08 PM

If you were being attacked, knowing that no help was coming, you would fight back.
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Cliffisher
Champion Author Wisconsin

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2012 4:16:32 PM

Hmmmm

Didn't the polls say that Romney would win?

How did that work for you?
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