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Author Topic: The CONSERVATIVE STATES of AMERICA as a new nation Back to Topics
gocatgo

Champion Author
South Carolina

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2012 10:34:51 AM

With so much talk about states seceding from the Union, how would a Conservative States of America (CSA) differ from the USA?

As a loyal American I would fight any attempt of dividing America. However, that being said there are many on the right that feel differently. Here is your chance to give your opinion and description of America divided into two separate nations and the changes that would happen.

REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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Michiganian
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2013 6:20:46 AM

>> Remember who Abe Lincoln was? If I'm not mistaken, a higher percentage of republicans voted for the 1964 civil rights act. I don't think institutional racism was ever a part of the Republican party. Just the opposite. <<

That changed with Richard Nixon's "Southern strategy".
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2013 1:49:07 AM


sgm4law, "Why, I believe that's the nicest thing you've ever said about Democrats on this forum! How sweet!"

Well, it is certainly sweeter than what you implied about the GOP.

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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 12, 2013 12:32:47 AM

"Why, I believe that's the nicest thing you've ever said about Democrats on this forum! How sweet!"

Hehehehe...
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 11, 2013 3:06:36 PM

"Just as oddly, the communists, terrorists, anarchists, and totalitarian dictators of the world align with the Democrat Party here."

"This does not reflect our current Democrat Party any more than the KKK reflects the GOP."

Why, I believe that's the nicest thing you've ever said about Democrats on this forum! How sweet!
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 10:24:19 PM


sgm4law, "It's interesting that the website of the kkk, http://kkk.bz/, has news reports whose viewpoints generally align with the farther right wing Republicans. Oddly enough, they don't seem to report any Democratic positions with sympathy"

Just as oddly, the communists, terrorists, anarchists, and totalitarian dictators of the world align with the Democrat Party here.

This does not reflect our current Democrat Party any more than the KKK reflects the GOP.

Both the extreme right and left ends of the political spectrum are inhabited by irrational extremist fanatics.

Our country is deeply divided along generally capitalist and socialist philosophical lines and we see quite different "solutions" to our common problems, but we have not yet degenerated as a nation into the insane wings of the political spectrum.

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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 10:14:06 PM


BabeTruth, 'It was a little bit more serious than just the political climate turning against them. In many cases they were driven out because of extreme prejudice to the point that they were no longer able to make a living and in some cases even to the point of fearing for their lives"

Extreme prejudice qualifies for the political climate turning against them.

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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 5:56:29 PM

"In many cases they were driven out because of extreme prejudice to the point that they were no longer able to make a living and in some cases even to the point of fearing for their lives."

In the case of the strife from 1775 to 1783, it was not only a rebellion against the British but simultaneously a civil war. Neighbor against neighbor. (I know a person whose ancestor was killed in upstate New York during that time by armed UELs.) Unlike after the second US Civil War, there was no Abraham Lincoln around to welcome the losing side to remain in the USA to fight another day. The UELs had chosen their side and lost. So, it was time for them to go where their loyalties lay -- and that was not in the USA.

If it comes to a third civil war in the USA, I expect the losing side to be deported as in the first civil war, not invited to hang around to scheme their revenge.

So, it would be much better to part company peacefully, by splitting into Red States and Blue States, than to go through yet another armed domestic conflict.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 2:18:15 PM

They call their political branch "The Knights Party."

Here is their platform [my comment in brackets]:
The Knights Party Platform

The recognition that America was founded as a Christian nation.
The recognition that America was founded as a White nation.
Repeal the NAFTA and GATT treaties.
Put America FIRST in all foreign matters
Stop all Foreign Aid Immediately
Cut off trade with countries that refuse to establish strict environmental laws. [this one sounds almost like the Democrats could support it because it sounds environmentally friendly, except it's really a way to stop trading with nonwhite nations]
Abolish ALL discriminatory affirmative action programs
Put American troops on our border to STOP the flood of illegal aliens
Abolish all anti-gun laws and encourage every adult to own a weapon
Actively promote love and appreciation of our unique European (White) culture
Outlaw the purchase of American property and industry by foreign corporations and investors.
Drug testing for welfare recipients
Repeal the Federal Reserve Act.
Balance the budget
Rehabilitate our public school system.
A flat income tax should be introduced to allow for the funding of community, state and federal projects.
Abortion should be outlawed except to save the mother’s life or in case of rape or incest.
We support the death penalty for those convicted of molestation and rape
We support a national law against the practice of homosexuality
We support the placing of all persons HIV positive into national hospitals
Restoring individual freedom to Christian America.
We support the voluntary repatriation of everyone not satisfied with living under White Christian rules of conduct back to the native lands of their people
Everyone who can work should work
We support a return to parental authority without government interference in the raising of our children
We respect the right of homeowners and that no one should ever be forced from their home for the non payment of taxes
We support state sovereignty resolutions
We advocate a strong defense department to safeguard American citizens
We support all U.S. veterans
We should find those that are missing and take care of those who have come home.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 2:10:33 PM

It's interesting that the website of the kkk, http://kkk.bz/, has news reports whose viewpoints generally align with the farther right wing Republicans. Oddly enough, they don't seem to report any Democratic positions with sympathy.

I wonder if things have changed since 1964? Hmmm.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 1:13:07 PM

"Most seem to forget that at one time the Gop was not as conservative as the dem party before 1960. Many of the hate filled racist dems were welcomed into the Gop by Barry Goldwater with open arms."

Remember who Abe Lincoln was? If I'm not mistaken, a higher percentage of republicans voted for the 1964 civil rights act. I don't think institutional racism was ever a part of the Republican party. Just the opposite.
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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2013 9:35:59 AM

KatmanDo, "Some of the United Empire Loyalists went north, but others went elsewhere in the British Empire, including to some Caribbean islands"

Panama19 "True, but the point is that they relocated when the political climate turned unfavorable to them."

It was a little bit more serious than just the political climate turning against them. In many cases they were driven out because of extreme prejudice to the point that they were no longer able to make a living and in some cases even to the point of fearing for their lives.

Are you suggesting that the political climate in the US has gotten to such a low point that you would fear for your life or that you would threaten the life of somebody who disagrees with you politically?
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 6:20:06 PM


gocatgo, "Most seem to forget that at one time the Gop was not as conservative as the dem party before 1960"

This is not true. The GOP has been the conservative Party during my lifetime.

There was a time in the '50's and '60s when the Parties were not as far apart as they are now, but there never was a time since WWII that the Dems were more conservative than the GOP.

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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 5:10:01 PM

"the point is that they relocated when the political climate turned unfavorable to them."

True enough. Why remain put after you realize that your views will be in the political minority for the foreseeable future? Either you move, be satisfied to become merely a political thwarter of the majority or lose your interest in politics altogether.

In U.S. history, there has been an ethnic group unhappy with the status quo back in Europe, so they abandoned ship and moved to the wilderness in North America. As population increased around them or their descendants in North America, they moved to more sparsely-populated areas of the continent. This pattern continued for many generations. So, it would seem unlikely that they'd abruptly change a centuries-old behavior pattern and merely become content to be figuratively fenced in.
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gocatgo
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 12:07:29 PM

Soy, the previous generation from the kkk were dems, most of which were Conservatives. You forgot to mention Dixiecrat Prez candidate Strom Thurmond of SC.

Most seem to forget that at one time the Gop was not as conservative as the dem party before 1960. Many of the hate filled racist dems were welcomed into the Gop by Barry Goldwater with open arms.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 10:12:23 AM

My mistake. Robert Byrd, Democrat, KKK Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops of his local chapter, served until 2010.
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Michiganian
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 9:21:29 AM

That was then, SoylentGrain. They were thrown out by the 1970s. The Democrats now.

[Edited by: Michiganian at 2/9/2013 9:26:47 AM EST]
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 1:15:00 AM


KatmanDo, "Some of the United Empire Loyalists went north, but others went elsewhere in the British Empire, including to some Caribbean islands"

True, but the point is that they relocated when the political climate turned unfavorable to them.

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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2013 1:12:44 AM

"And the Tories went to Canada."

Some of the United Empire Loyalists went north, but others went elsewhere in the British Empire, including to some Caribbean islands.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 12:15:07 PM


BabeTruth, "India and Pakistan did it in 1949. And then Pakistan split again with Bangladesh"

And the Tories went to Canada.

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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 12:09:28 PM

What's your point, sgm4law? The KKK members of congress in the previous decade were Democrats. Furthermore, most KKK members were Democrat.
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gocatgo
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 10:35:02 AM

Pop, compromise "tell that to Obama". So now suddenly cons are for compromise, Lol. Maybe you forgot about the 10 for 1 deal that cons refused to compromise on.
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sgm4law
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 10:02:31 AM

This sort of stuff will be confined to the New CSA, for sure. :)
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 9:28:33 AM

""Whatever the problems are in America, they should be worked out which will mean compromise.""

One of those problems is deficit spending. In a marrage, if one spouse continued to charge on the credit card more than what your total income was, you would cut up the credit cards. If that didn't work, you get a divorce.

A majority of voters chose not to divorce Barack Hussein Obama last November and we are paying the consequences. If the government reaches a point where it can't print any more money, maybe it's time for the spending states to go on their own.
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PopcornPirate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 8:14:28 AM

""Whatever the problems are in America, they should be worked out which will mean compromise.""

Tell That to Obozo & all the liberals in DC that want to spend more money then we possibly have.
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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2013 7:14:06 AM

Well Katmando, at least if we encourage them as you suggest we'll know who they are and be able to start a list. (As if TP's need any more reasons to be paranoid)
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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 5:36:38 PM

"This discussion is based on the hurt feelings of the poor losers from the last elections."

Talk like the above only tends to undermine the confidence of those who agree splitting up might be a good idea. I say, "Fly, Little Birdies, fly! You can do it; if only you believe in yourself!"

It's not like folks are going to change their deep convictions any time soon. So, what benefit would there be for this unhappy couple to remain together now? Remember Sears & Roebuck? Today Roebuck's out of the picture. Life goes on nevertheless.

[Edited by: KatmanDo at 2/7/2013 5:40:07 PM EST]
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gocatgo
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 11:50:36 AM

Kat, "boats allowed access down the Mississippi from Chicago". You of course understand that did not work too well for the old Csa.

green, "(blacks) would not wish to remain in the south" that happened in 1861-65 too. But the blacks came back to the South in blue uniforms and it did not go so well for the south. The "what ifs" are in the delirious heads of some cons. The "unhappy people out there" are made up of about 99.9% cons having problems dealing with the reality of the election results. This nearly mirrors the feelings of those that lost the 1860 election. "Those that cannot remember the past" should read some books on the Civil War. Whatever the problems are in America, they should be worked out which will mean compromise.

Pan, "the liberal mind is breath taking" compared to the con dreamers wanting to secede from the Union? Surely you jest.

Babe, "poor losers & strange minds" sounds like they have been smoking too much weed.

Soy, "what's wrong with liberals leaving the union"? Which liberals on this topic want to leave the Union, how about None. This discussion is based on the hurt feelings of the poor losers from the last elections.
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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 10:18:12 AM

Panama19 “The dysfunction we see in Washington today will get even worse over time; both sides are becoming ever more set in their divergent positions.”

Fueled by people on both sides who are absolutely 100% intransigent and won't even consider the other side's POV. In fact, they won't even discuss the other side's POV without either insulting them or ridiculing them.

“This will most likely lead to sequester in the short term, which will result in the hollowing out of our military while the despots and terrorists of the world are gathering strength.”

Oh yes, and one side at least seems to be constantly paranoid but in fact their actions often push more people into hating us here.

“With the barbarians at our gates we are busily disarming.”

Barbarians aren't going to be stopped by nuclear subs and huge task forces. You can't fight guerillas with conventional weapons. That was one of the hard lessons of Vietnam.

“History is replete with examples of what happens next; and it will not involve our intentional choice.”

Actually, it is our intentional choice. It's just that most people are too full of false 'patriotism' to allow themselves to see it.

Just like Rome, we're defeating ourselves from within and the barbarians really don't have to do much but wait.
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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 10:10:24 AM

I'm think I'm with you on that greentre. It's just a bunch of whiners and spoiled brats acting out because the election didn't go the way they wanted. But they don't really have the %*&&s to stick to it.

But if any split did happen, there'd be no problem with the people being mixed. People are portable.

India and Pakistan did it in 1949. And then Pakistan split again with Bangladesh.

So it CAN be done. But only if there's a will, which I don't believe there is.

As far as people voluntarily moving, if they felt strongly, they would. If they didn't, then it wouldn't matter. But if they thought things were really as bad as they're saying, then they would move.
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greentre
Champion Author Pensacola

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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 8:58:28 AM

True. Hey there's another business for the CSA! Tourism! LOL!

So Kat, are you coming down to 'visit' if everything goes south? (pardon the pun)
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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 12:26:17 AM

"Besides I like warm weather, that's why I live in Florida! ;-)"

So do many yankees prefer warmer climes -- at least in the winter months. So, I don't expect any substantial falloff in the volume of snow birds who migrate south in the winter, whether their destination happens to be within the USA, the CSA or even the United Mexican States. A warm winter destination by any other name feels just as comforting.

[Edited by: KatmanDo at 2/7/2013 12:27:02 AM EST]
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greentre
Champion Author Pensacola

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2013 5:59:51 PM

Take a look at the map of the United States; now draw a line following the Mason-Dixon line out to Nevada then turn south. Count the number of states in the south.

Coincidence?
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greentre
Champion Author Pensacola

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2013 12:24:34 PM

Kat, what you say is true. It has been done before and we could do it again. I just don't see people having the wherewithall to do it. And then there is the current government who will not want to lose the tax base from several, or more, states leaving.

Like gocatgo says "[he] would fight any attempt of dividing America", I'm sure there are many with this sentiment. For me this is an exercise in 'what if', but IF it came down to it, I know which side of the fence I would be on.

I'm not a fan of increasing taxation to fund unwarranted spending. I'm not a fan of big brother nor of a bloated government. Besides I like warm weather, that's why I live in Florida! ;-)
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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2013 12:03:01 PM

"And if it did happen, the battle to re-establish the financial, legal and governmental systems would be great."

That sounds a bit like the adult child listing reasons for remaining under the roof of the parents -- or of the parents trying to undermine the confidence of the adult child considering moving out.

Will there be real challenges to splitting up? Sure. But both sides are now grown ups who are equal to the challenge. After all, the average U.S. citizen of today could probably run circles around the average citizen of 1785. They did it, so can we.



[Edited by: KatmanDo at 2/6/2013 12:04:07 PM EST]
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greentre
Champion Author Pensacola

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2013 8:35:32 AM

Panama19,

You are very right about history showing the primrose path the country is on and the failed finished product this all will bring about.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana, in his Reason in Common Sense, The Life of Reason, Vol.1

Even current events in other countries do not sway the masses.

[Edited by: greentre at 2/6/2013 8:35:59 AM EST]
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2013 12:42:16 AM


greentre, "I'm not sure though that enough are willing to go the distance to actually divide the country"

It most likely will not be a choice we make intentionally.

The dysfunction we see in Washington today will get even worse over time; both sides are becoming ever more set in their divergent positions.

This will most likely lead to sequester in the short term, which will result in the hollowing out of our military while the despots and terrorists of the world are gathering strength.

With the barbarians at our gates we are busily disarming.

History is replete with examples of what happens next; and it will not involve our intentional choice.

Others less considerate of our freedoms will be making the choices for us.

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greentre
Champion Author Pensacola

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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2013 4:12:54 PM

KatmanDo,

Inevitable? I don't know, maybe. There are a LOT of unhappy people out there. I'm not sure though that enough are willing to go the distance to actually divide the country. And if it did happen, the battle to re-establish the financial, legal and governmental systems would be great. Not impossible, as our Fore Fathers did it once before.

The country is also too well mixed with people from both sides living in the different sections surrounded by 'the other side' to have a definitive dividing line. Whether it be north/south or east/west. Even a diagonal cut would still leave pockets of either in 'enemy' territory.

I guess a 'gentlemanly' way to do it would be for each group to voluntarily move to the new designated region for their beliefs. Like that would happen either. Lol!
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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2013 4:01:57 PM

"The chances of the country dividing are so slim as to be non-existent."

On the other hand, I consider it inevitable. One way of looking at it is to consider the example of a nuclear family:

The parents call the shots while the children (ideally) do what they're told. Eventually, however, the children become adults with minds of their own. It's not healthy for them to continue to be treated like children, so something has to give. Sometimes the adult children are more than happy to strike out on their own, to make their own place in the world. However, sometimes they need a gentle nudge to do what's ultimately in their own best interest.

So, either way would be fine today. The Red States might form the CSA or the Blue States might form the LSA. What is obvious, however, is that neither side is going to willingly see things the same way the other does. Now it's either put up or shut up time -- and consistently stifling one's views is simply not healthy in the long run.
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greentre
Champion Author Pensacola

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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2013 3:40:48 PM

"Yes, it is an interesting subject to speculate on. It reminds me of the sorts of discussions I had as a college student on late nights when nobody wanted to study."

Yes, I spent many nights the same way. Especially "What if this happened/didn't happen in history?"
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2013 8:34:20 AM

"This is a bizarre topic"

Not as bizarre as the thread about the US Constitution not being relevant any more. Too many politicians feel the US Constitution is a hindrance. What's wrong with liberal states leaving the Union?
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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2013 7:24:57 AM

Since it was conservative minds who dreamed up the idea of secession because they were poor losers in the election, it shows just what strange minds conservatives have to now complain about discussing it.

Oh wait! I see who the source is now. No wonder.
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Panama19
Champion Author Louisville

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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2013 1:33:30 AM


101Speedster, "This is a bizarre topic"

The liberal mind is a breath-taking thing, isn't it?

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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2013 1:08:12 AM

greentre, you're of course 100% correct that Miami is the center of blueness in the state, but it's also the largest center of population. So unless Florida broke up by county, it's a blue state at the moment.

How would the number of retirees there influence things though? Older people are more likely conservative, and less likely activist for things like secession.

You're also correct that the miners are the ones with the maps to the minefield, but I wonder how much minelayers would want to operate that far from their home (New Orleans?) and that close to 'enemy' territory. It would put them well within range of Florida patrols and minelayers aren't noted for speed. The Cubans might object too, but I don't know if that would count for much.

But why would the CSA want to mine those straights? That would hurt them much more than it would hurt the USA since it's the CSA that needs access to the Atlantic. Miami already has a straight run east to the open ocean.

From what I know about the auto industry, it would be hard to keep them in the south because the parts manufacturers and suppliers are concentrated in the north which would likely trump what incentives the CSA could afford.

Cotton and peanuts are definitely southern crops, wheat, not so much so. Hard to make national budget on peanuts though. Cotton might still be important.

Yes, it is an interesting subject to speculate on. It reminds me of the sorts of discussions I had as a college student on late nights when nobody wanted to study.

-

As for it being a bizarre topic 101Speedster, I think it was the bad losers among the conservatives that first started the petitions to secede from the Union. So does that mean that you're calling conservative ideas bizarre?
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2013 5:47:38 PM

This is a bizarre topic.
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greentre
Champion Author Pensacola

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Message Posted: Feb 4, 2013 5:43:21 PM

Ah, I wish I hadn't had to leave for this conversation.

sgm4law, "If you're going to make anti-black arguments, don't be afraid to just come out and say so."

I only found the map. It happens to show almost the exact same pattern as the other one for hand-outs. So it tends to reason that one follows the other. I personally don't care what color creed or otherwise it fits but since it did show the blacks then the reasoning after that that they would not wish to remain in the south also follows.

BabeTruth, "Greentre, being in Pensacola, I thought you'd know that Florida was a blue state, not a red one."

And by looking at the county by county breakdown you would see that only Miami and a couple of other locations are blue.

"And if you did mine the straights"

Mine fields are always mapped for the people setting the mines, of course the other side could do the same (mine the straights).

The car companies, of course they could pull up and move, or the south could make it a much more friendly environment to the corporate culture. The type of agriculture (wheat, cotton, peanuts, etc.) are an example, I'm not a farmer so this is not an area of expertise. I am sure there are other very profitable staples that would do well in the south though. The Panama canal I hadn't even thought about. The Mississippi River is one of the major channels for products coming down to the gulf and it could be bottlenecked by gun emplacements on either side. Another interesting thought.

But this whole thing is an exercise in 'what if's'. The chances of the country dividing are so slim as to be non-existent.

I do thank you for the interesting discussion.
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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Feb 2, 2013 12:31:33 AM

"I was thinking more along the line that if any boat, commercial or military, flying a US flag had attempted to pass say, Natchez, it would have been fired upon and never made it out to open water in the Gulf."

Well, certainly during an armed conflict that would be understandable. But I don't believe we're talking about a state of war here, just a peaceful coexistence of two neighbors. Much like the United Mexican States or Canada and the USA today.
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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Feb 1, 2013 9:17:47 AM

I was thinking more along the line that if any boat, commercial or military, flying a US flag had attempted to pass say, Natchez, it would have been fired upon and never made it out to open water in the Gulf.
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KatmanDo
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Jan 31, 2013 9:35:01 PM

"I seem to remember the last time there was a CSA there might have been some question as to whether boats from Chicago would have been allowed free access down the Mississippi to the Gulf."

Businesspeople today seem to be pretty much like prostitutes: You pay the money, you get the action. Back in the mid-nineteenth century there seemed to be the conviction that if the states were to divide, some hostile superpower would move right in and conquer first one part and then the other. Under such mentality, Canada would've been invaded and conquered long ago. The fact that Canada remains independent today demonstrates that such thinking was fundamentally flawed.
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BabeTruth
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Jan 27, 2013 1:47:58 PM

Probably gocatgo. But it's safer to humor them and let them dream instead of whatever else more harmful they might focus on.
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gocatgo
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Jan 27, 2013 12:40:49 PM

Mich, "setting up a Pc game" is exactly how all of the cession hot air comes with copious amounts of green whine.

Cons are dreaming.
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