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Author Topic: Now we'll see the True Costs of Obamacare Back to Topics
teacher_tim

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Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2012 9:38:22 AM

Since Obama won the election, he's going full-tilt to implement ObamaCare, even though a majority of Americans oppose it. This is hardly a surprise as this is his signature legislation and viryually the only thing he can point to as a success in his first term, along with giving the nod to pulling the trigger on bin Laden. But what are the real effects and costs of this healthcare provider-designed monstrosity? Here's one obvious example, but feel free to post more that you find:

"The CEO of popular pizza chain Papa John's says his employees may face reduced hours and he expects his business costs to rise because President Obama's re-election most likely insures the president's health care reform law will be implemented in full.

NaplesNews.com reports John Schnatter made the remarks to a small group at Edison State College's Collier County campus the day after the election.

Schnatter, who supported Mitt Romney in the election, said all Americans having health insurance under ObamaCare is a good, but estimates the change will cost Papa John's $5 million to $8 million annually.

Schnatter estimated that these rising costs could adversely affect his workers. Since only full-time employees working 30 hours or more must be covered under the new law, he said he expects franchise owners will be forced to cut employees' hours because they can't afford the costs of health insurance plans.

"That's probably what's going to happen," he said according to NaplesNews.com. "It's common sense. That's what I call lose-lose."
link to story

Expect to see impending shortages of doctors as well when you balance the pay cuts against the rising costs of college and medical school.
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 11:43:11 PM

States and companies are scrambling now that they know Obamacare will be implemented, at least in part. So what happens when it's cheaper to pay the fine and keep the company solvent than provide healthcare and layoff employees or close?
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nraacct
Champion Author North Carolina

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 2:51:03 PM

"will the Obama apologists continue their unbridled defense of this utter devastation from Obama Care?"

This will continue to be pushed as good for the country, not to mention the legacy of the Obama presidency. If if falls apart, then either Bush or the evil Republicans will be blamed.
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 1:48:02 PM

When all of this begins to unravel in 2013 and 2014 and millions are FORCED in to the exchanges and their choice for healthcare has been eliminated, will the Obama apologists continue their unbridled defense of this utter devastation from Obama Care?
Of course should they somehow come to their senses it will be too late.
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I75at7AM
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 12:45:36 PM

Much has been written and spoken about the "top 1%" of earners, the "99%" who presumably have wealth envy of that 1%, and the 47% that Romney referred to.
Well, it's time for another number and you are going to hear this one a lot. Trust me.
The number is "29"

29-hour work week coming? - Employers looking to escape Obamacare mandate

Obamacare and the 29-Hour Ceiling
"Obamacare] requires employers with 50 or more full-time workers to provide health insurance for those workers. At the same time, no company has to buy insurance for part-time employees, defined as those working less than 30 hours a week.” In other words, under Obamacare, get ready for the prominence of the 29-hour work week — with corresponding pay."

Welcome to life in Obama's America, you 29'ers. How many of you voted for the guy, anyway?



[Edited by: I75at7AM at 11/13/2012 12:50:02 PM EST]
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 12:41:11 PM

mj: "Many jobs once performed by 2 or 3 workers are now performed by a single higher performing, multi-tasking worker with multiple duties."


That's also true, but those people will be better educated and better motivated than those who they are replacing, not to mention as you said being able to pass a drug test, background check, etc.

Just thinking about this, I suspect it won't be long until in places like California, drug testing, starting with pot, will become illegal (because it's discriminatory) except for jobs involving safety.

I think we are embarking upon a protracted period of open class warfare and warfare between capitalism and socialism, as the producers try to keep the fruits of their labors, and the takers and government, as the economic situation gets ever more dire, try harder and harder to pry the fruits of that labor out of the hands of those that produced it. It will become fashionable to call those who resist tax increases outright thieves and robber barons. We saw a preview of this with the Bain Capital attacks on Romney. Robin Hood will become the role model of the day.

mudtoe

[Edited by: mudtoe at 11/13/2012 12:43:32 PM EST]
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Guitar_Man
Champion Author Colorado Springs

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 12:08:30 PM

Remember Obama saying with Obamacare we can keep our doctors?

A lie...over 170,000 US Military veterans are soon to lose their Tricare Prime insurance....VERY sad for elderly and disabiled veterans on fixed incomes already.171,000 May Soon Lose Tricare Prime
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MarkJames
Champion Author Albany

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 11:29:36 AM

"This will be especially true in the retail space. Look to see far fewer clerks, and far more kiosks where you can self checkout"

One of our cousin's daughters that works at a grocery store often works the self scan/check-out area.

One single employee watches 2 lanes with 6 self check-outs (they're adding 2 more) which eliminates the need for many cashiers and baggers.

The store now uses motorized grocery cart pushers which eliminates the need for as many cart wranglers.

The store she woks for also uses engineered labor standards, so poor performers are written up, suspended or terminated quickly.

Besides the elimination of jobs due to automation, computerization, communications, self-service, specialized tools, specialized equipment, outsourcing, offshoring etc, many employers will demand much better performance from existing employees when costs increase.

Many jobs once performed by 2 or 3 workers are now performed by a single higher performing, multi-tasking worker with multiple duties.

Besides engineered labor standards, probationary periods, labor assessments etc, many employers have a much tougher initial culling process as well.

Many job seekers can't pass drug testing, background checks, credit checks, DMV checks, aptitude tests and physical fitness assessments let alone 2nd/3rd interviews, probationary periods, engineered labor/safety standards.

The demand for top performing multi-tasking workers has also caused more employers to hire younger, fit and healthier workers.
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2012 8:26:17 AM

Does it really matter to the 47%ers?
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noseatbelt
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2012 5:20:05 PM

If obamacare isn't changed, and changed a lot it will be a major cause of unemployment, or under employment we have ever seen, plus being a major hit on the economy. And now, obama has another four years to wreak havoc on our country, what a shame.
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2012 3:31:17 PM

mj: "A Part-Time, Low-Wage Epidemic "


That is exactly where we are headed. Taxes and Obamacare will simply hasten this process and turn what was a trend, into a raging torrent. Government will try to retaliate somehow, like lowering the hourly threshold for Obamacare. At that point companies will look to replace workers with automation. This will be especially true in the retail space. Look to see far fewer clerks, and far more kiosks where you can self checkout, order merchandise, or open a chat session with a sales clerk in India if you have questions. There will also be a new category of smartphone apps that let you do the same thing from your phone while in the store. The stores will add wireless capability to support this.

This is how they will compete with the Amazon's of the world. If any of you remember a company called Service Merchandise from the 1980s, who had terminals in the store and you ordered from the terminals and then went to a central area to pick up your purchases, that is the model retail will be going to. Only really high end stores will have significant quantities of salespeople to answer questions and help you select a product.

This is a battle government can't win.


mudtoe
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2012 2:28:43 PM

hep,
You can't run a company on patriotism, you need profit to make payroll and taxes. I predict that you will see a wave of people with TWO 29.5 hour jobs to make ends meet and STILL on the Government Health Program. It will also be an incredible coincidence that there are SO MANY 49 employee small businesses, of those that survive.
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hep0950
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2012 1:45:31 PM

Companies have been cutting workers and putting more on part time for years, since back in the 80s. And where are all the jobs from the last tax cuts? They never happened. I guess we are to let coporates blackmail the country to get what they want? Where is their patriotism? What would have happened if they thought that years ago. Yes, victimise the people who have lost their jobs but make excuses for those who put them there. Grea logic and common sense there.
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MarkJames
Champion Author Albany

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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2012 1:00:43 PM

The transition to more and more part-timers, temps and on-call/as needed unscheduled workers has been happening for a long time.

Obamacare will just give employers more incentive to eliminate workers and full time workers.

==========================================================================
A Timely Article on the subject.

A Part-Time, Low-Wage Epidemic

As Americans head to the polls, they face a disastrous new normal: For the first time, the U.S. economy has shifted in the direction of a part-time, low-wage workforce.

The number of Americans now working part time has soared to 8.3 million—up 313,000 in the past two months alone. With economic growth declining or stagnant for quarter after quarter, many companies feel it is too risky to take on people full time.

This has created an army of "underutilized labor." America's narrow unemployment rate is 7.9%, but it is 14.6% when accounting for involuntary part-time workers. The number of Americans working full time has declined by 5.9 million since September 2007, while the number working part time has jumped by 2.6 million.

Over the same period, according to the National Employment Law Project, low-wage occupations have grown nearly three times as fast as mid-wage and higher-wage ones. Whereas lower-wage jobs were 21% of losses during the recession, they have accounted for 58% of new jobs since—and these have the highest proportion of part-time jobs. By contrast, mid-wage occupations were 60% of recession losses but have been only 22% of recovery growth. Higher-wage occupations were 19% of jobs lost and have been 20% of jobs recovered.

The lower-wage occupations that have seen the most growth include retail salespersons, food-preparation workers, laborers and freight workers, waiters and waitresses, personal- and home-care aides, office clerks and customer representatives. Over the past two years, the food service, retail and employment-services industries have added a total of 1.7 million low-wage jobs, fully 43% of America's net employment growth.

Meanwhile, the better-paying manufacturing, finance, insurance and real-estate industries have seen no growth or not enough to make up for recession losses. And steep cuts in state and local government jobs have hit mid-wage and high-wage employees hardest.

Then there is the matter of wage growth and decline. For those in lower-wage and mid-wage jobs, pay has declined over the past year by 2.1% and 2%, respectively. In higher-wage occupations, pay has increased 4.1%.

This underscores the difference between job quantity and job quality. When low-wage jobs are growing in number, mid-wage jobs are disappearing and higher-wage jobs are paying more, the result is a hollowed-out middle class.

Looking ahead, the industries expected by the Bureau of Labor Statistics to add the most jobs by 2020—health care, social assistance and retail—are notorious for low-wage and insecure work. Many don't offer even minimum wage or overtime protection.

Today's part-time workers will have it particularly rough in the future if they don't receive training to boost their skills. America will need to create 1.8 million to three million new jobs every year just to absorb the labor force's new entrants. So competition for scarce jobs will be tough, especially when technology and globalization are wiping out many middle-class jobs in manufacturing and transportation, for example.

Won't the disequilibrium be corrected when the economy gets out of its rut? Alas, the long-term nature of these trends suggests they are more structural than cyclical. From academia to retail, government to warehouse work, employers are increasingly offering part-time work or nominally full-time jobs with lower wages and fewer benefits. ObamaCare will accelerate this trend starting in 2014, as the costs of insuring full-time workers will get so high that firms will have incentives to limit their weeks to 29 hours or fewer.

America's challenge is to avoid descending totally into a low-wage, part-time economy with stagnant growth and employers pressed to shorten workers' hours or ask them to take unpaid leave. If not—and if millions of workers feel that they are falling further and further behind—the result will be a stratified society.

Social mobility in America is already much less than we have long liked to believe. And disparities in income, education and social behavior are reinforcing themselves all the more, so future mobility might be lower still. Thus many Americans' gut feeling that the American dream is fading.

According to the Pew Research Center, one-third of Americans now identify themselves as lower class or lower middle class, up from one-quarter in 2008. This isn't surprising when 23 million Americans are unemployed or underemployed. They, and everyone else in the economy, want to know: When will America once again be the land of opportunity?

A Part-Time, Low-Wage Epidemic
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RockCity
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2012 9:55:55 AM

Wowsers, some old geezer said his cost will go up by 11 clams, to $30 bucks a pop next year. I pay $1300 per month for health insurance, and I sure hope that does not rise. I've already benefited by using the 26 year old can stay on my policy clause and the prior condition benefit will be nice, perhaps.
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2012 12:08:19 AM

So you add in the 30 million previously uninsured, the 12 million illegals covered under the next immigration reform and the "other" 12 million or so illegals who will magically appear and explain how medical costs won't skyrocket?
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2012 1:19:56 PM

flyboy: "Do you folks think these 'dreamers' will ever but EVER understand TANSTAAFL? "


They think the rich can be made to pay for it all. What they don't get is that first the amount of wealth required is far in excess of what the rich have, and second that the rich aren't going to just sit there and let what wealth they do have be confiscated. But hey, the mob makes the rules now, and mobs aren't very smart.


mudtoe
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2012 11:47:19 AM

Do you folks think these 'dreamers' will ever but EVER understand TANSTAAFL?
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AC-302
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2012 11:37:51 AM

This is obviously nothing more than a power grab. Make no mistake. Implementation of ObamaCare is the first big step towards socialized medicine ala Great Britain. When the system collapses under it's own weight (which it will do), the next logical step will be to place the hospitals and doctors under the auspices of the government. It will be the only way to "save it".

Something else that I don't get is why folks think everything will be free for all, and will not cost anyone any more money? We cannot offer unlimited care, as there is simply not unlimited money. The obvious and logical consequence of this is that their will be rationing of care. And if they do end up rationing care, what do you think will be the outcome? Obviously the elderly who are not paying into the system and no longer productive will end up at the back of the line.

Look at what GB does with their "NICE board". The NICE board is the group that rations care and hears appeals to the system. For example - if you have cataracts, they only will do ONE eye. Why? Because you don't need two to function, quite frankly. I also heard of a case where someone had an ocular condition that required an expensive eye-drop medicine. Well, they only give you enough for ONE eye, as you don't need that second eye. I also wonder if someone develops cancer not long after retirement, if they would be rejected from treatments. After all, prolonging their life is only going to cost the system more money it doesn't have. These are reasonable, logical and obvious consequences to the problem of not having enough money.

And some here beef about the cost of folks using the ER instead of one's primary care doc. OK great. But if it's going to take weeks to get an appointment, what other alternative will they have but to use ER or urgent care?
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2012 11:25:36 AM

Yup, 49 employees max for small businesses, and more under 30 hour part time employees with no benefits and fewer full time employees for large businesses. That's the Obamacare economic formula. How do you think that will affect the economy?

In a year or so there won't be any full time clerks or salespeople in retail stores, no full time people at all in service oriented businesses such as movie theaters and restaurants, except maybe a couple of managers. The same will be true in back end places like warehouse and shipping facilities. Basically any job that doesn't require a college education, some special skill, or involves danger, will become part time. The only exception of course will be unions and government, which will be the only full time work people without a college education will be able to get.


mudtoe


[Edited by: mudtoe at 11/11/2012 11:32:12 AM EST]
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theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Nov 11, 2012 10:20:57 AM

The true costs have always been known to those who wanted to listen and understand.
Sadly, those people are few and far between it would seem these days.
Obama himself said a gradual change away from employer based coverage was needed before we could get a system like Britain or Canada.
The end result of the failure of Obama Care is actually what they want. Its designed to put as many people into the exchanges as possible and away from their employer based coverage. Employers dropping coverage in the news is probably playing like Beethoven to Obama's ears.

[Edited by: theTower at 11/11/2012 10:23:03 AM EST]
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