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Author Topic: Should the government be encouraging cars that never need gas? Back to Topics
101Speedster

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Message Posted: Dec 5, 2010 11:08:05 AM

Cars that never need gas. Maybe our tax dollars should be going to solar, wind, and other alternative energy companies than to the major oil companies

>>There are hybrids. There are electric cars that plug into a wall and get their juice from whatever mix the electric company is offering. And then there are electic cars that are charged by solar panels on the roof of one's house. They never need gas, and the power is free after the set-up cost . . .

. . . Asked how long it will take for the PV system to pay for itself, Dickey replies: ". . . the instant I turned my system on." Dickey had been paying $75 a month for electricity. He took a loan out to buy the PV system, and pays $70 a month toward that loan. "My electricity and gasoline bills are now zero, and next year when my loan is paid off, this investment will be paying me probably for the rest of my life. My PV system covers the power for my home and my car. It displaces $90 worth of electricity and over $100 worth of gasoline every month. So my estimate of how long until the system pays for itself is no time at all!"<<

Other links mentioned in the article above:

evnut.com
eaaev.org
pluginamerica.org

[Edited by: 101Speedster at 12/5/2010 11:10:17 AM EST]
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 8, 2014 3:29:00 AM

Oil pan 4's tow and charge service will be up and running soon.
Got the 7kw genset, its ready to go and the 18ft long 3 ton trailer is almost done.
Electric car buying fools deserve to be parted from the rest of their money.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 8, 2014 1:19:56 AM

"Wrong answer speedy. The Prius never received a $7500 handout from the taxpyer upon purchase,.... "

But, the Prius did fall under a program for tax credits and long vefore the Volt came on the scene. Furthermore, the Prius plug is under the same tax category as the Volt.
Prius Tax Credit

It's amusing, shockjock, you refer to tax credits as a "handout from the taxpyr" as if it were your money. It's a reasonable bet that someone buying a $60,000 to $100,000 car is paying more than the average person in taxes, even with the tax credit.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 7, 2014 7:25:25 PM

"The handout for the Prius has expired because of the number of them sold. When the Prius was new, the "handout" was the same as the one for the Tesla."

Wrong answer speedy. The Prius never received a $7500 handout from the taxpyer upon purchase, neither did Toyota receive hundreds of million so dollars woth of taxpayer backed loans as did Tesla....

BTW, I see that Tesla sales have stalled and/or declined over the last few months...
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Jun 7, 2014 12:58:54 PM

>>The big difference between the prius and any tesla product is the prius is actually affordable and usually doenst come with a huge tax payer hand out.<<

The handout for the Prius has expired because of the number of them sold. When the Prius was new, the "handout" was the same as the one for the Tesla.
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teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: May 8, 2014 1:34:48 PM

We don't have the infrastructure to handle very many electric cars.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 8, 2014 1:30:42 PM

Tesla Motors Inc. reported a first-quarter loss and said sales of its Model X sport utility vehicle will be delayed until next year.

This despite the government's "encouragement"...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 5/8/2014 1:32:17 PM EST]
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TimEum
Champion Author Huntsville

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 2:22:34 AM

I think that the more we can do to become energy independent and not reliant on foreign oil is not only good economically but good for national security.

My next car will probably be a Toyota Prius, Ford C-Max, or other hybrid.

However, I do not believe the government should provide tax breaks, subsidies, or spend any money to promote or hinder the industry.

Simply allow market forces to work.

If hybrids and/or all electrics make sense they will prosper without government intervention. If they really do make sense, then the government should consider buying some for government transportation use, perhaps even military use.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 5:57:45 PM

"You need to get out of your liberal academia world, Shock, and come join the real world."

The only one living in a fantasy world seems to be you speedy...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 5:56:32 PM

"How exactly does Shock driving a Prius make him a hypocrite?"

I too would like an answer to that...
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2014 11:32:57 AM

"You are a typical hypocrite driving your little Prius."

How exactly does Shock driving a Prius make him a hypocrite? It would seem just the opposite.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2014 10:57:09 AM

The big difference between the prius and any tesla product is the prius is actually affordable and usually doenst come with a huge tax payer hand out.
Where the tesla has the huge tax payer hand out and still isnt affordable.
Any one that buys there stock above $240/share will learn a fool and money are soon parted.
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2014 10:34:26 AM

You need to get out of your liberal academia world, Shock, and come join the real world. You are a typical hypocrite driving your little Prius.

[Edited by: 101Speedster at 3/10/2014 10:35:11 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2014 1:18:56 PM

BTW speedy, I see your buddy Obama wants to increase the taxpayer handout from $7500/auto to $10,000/auto.

Your liberal wet dream continues...



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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2014 1:16:00 PM

How many Tesla (or EV's) do you own Speedy? On that's right, you don't own any, in fact you own a gas guzzler. Why is that?

Don't you believe in putting you money where your mouth is?

For all your praise speedy, Tesla has yet to make a substantial profit of any sort.

Of course you and your Liberal friends think handying over taxpayer funds to keep them in business is a good idea...
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2014 11:23:42 AM



Motley Fool was VERY high on Tesla.

Now they have changed their minds and recommend AGAINST buying Tesla stock.

They call the cars 'toys for billionaires'.

;-)

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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Mar 5, 2014 11:15:34 AM

Please tell me, Shock, that you shorted Tesla Motors (TSLA) stock. :)
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Feb 28, 2014 4:58:38 PM

>>Didnt GM buy up part of tesla?<<

Never heard that one before.

Tesla's stock had a bad day today. Tesla's stock is down to $244.81 per share today. ;)
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Feb 28, 2014 4:56:52 PM

That's good to know, Shock.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2014 3:25:53 PM

"I guess this topic is now a dead issue since it is my understanding all of the government tax credits for electric vehicles expired on December 31, 2013."

As usual speedy, you are wrong.

"The qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle credit phases out for a manufacturer’s vehicles over the one-year period beginning with the second calendar quarter after the calendar quarter in which at least 200,000 qualifying vehicles manufactured by that manufacturer have been sold for use in the United States (determined on a cumulative basis for sales after December 31, 2009)"

The handout will continue for some time in order to reach the 200,000 sold mile marker...
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2014 3:00:55 PM

Didnt GM buy up part of tesla?
Of course their stock will do well now that they are part of good ole "too big to fail" GM.

A companies stock price is not the loan indicator of a companies health.
Proof? The dot com stock market bubble bursting in the late 90s.
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2014 2:52:23 PM

I guess this topic is now a dead issue since it is my understanding all of the government tax credits for electric vehicles expired on December 31, 2013.

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101Speedster
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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2014 2:37:50 PM

Just saw on CNBC that used Tesla Model S's are worth more than new ones.

Also, take note that Tesla Motors stock is at new record highs.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2014 12:10:05 PM

Batteries will always remain too expensive so long as fossil fuels don't become insanely expensive.
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PopcornPirate
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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2014 10:45:01 AM

Battery technology is not there yet.Still too expensive.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jan 15, 2014 10:35:59 AM

The "affordable" EV that Tesla promised as being "just around the corner" is still at least three years away...

$35,000 EV 3 years away
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 11, 2014 10:30:50 AM

No problem. They should develop a standard icon to denote sarcasm...
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Jan 10, 2014 1:04:42 PM

Sorry. It's hard to see sarcasm with just text.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 10, 2014 12:20:22 PM

I was being sarcastic...

AOL is not much of a player today, so I don't see how their opinion has much significance..
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Jan 10, 2014 11:46:54 AM

America Online. Used to be significant during the dial-up internet era.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 10, 2014 11:36:14 AM

Who or what is AOL???
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Jan 10, 2014 10:38:54 AM

AOL Bestows Tesla’s Supercharger With Its Top Tech Honor

>>So what makes the Supercharger such an engineering feat, deserving of such an intense name? For one, it charges a ModelS 20 times faster than most public charging stations: 80 percent of the car’s charge can be had in 40 minutes.<<
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Dec 31, 2013 10:30:50 AM

Oh great now tesla will be too big to fail...

But which is the lesser of 2 evils:
Tesla+GM
or
China buys tesla.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Dec 30, 2013 9:17:15 PM

"Heard something the other day on CNBC about GM possibly buying Tesla Motors. I don't think Elon Musk would go for that"

Whats that got to do with the topic: Should the government be encouraging cars that never need gas?
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101Speedster
Champion Author Ventura

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Message Posted: Dec 30, 2013 1:51:56 PM

Heard something the other day on CNBC about GM possibly buying Tesla Motors. I don't think Elon Musk would go for that.
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2013 1:16:06 PM

"Our grid system is badly in need of maintenance and is near capacity. Pointless to waste money encouraging people to further strain it. "

Unless that was the plan all along....
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teacher_tim
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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2013 12:29:15 PM

No, I don't want the government spending one penny of my tax dollars encouraging coal-powered [electric] cars. Our grid system is badly in need of maintenance and is near capacity. Pointless to waste money encouraging people to further strain it.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 2:19:04 PM

"What appears impossibly to many is simple to some. It's just a matter of having the skill and desire to develop those ideas."

No, accomplishing some things IS impossible. What seems simple to some, others are smart enough to know cannot be done; if it seems simple to you, but nobody else thinks so, you're probably missing something important. Other ideas are technologically feasible, but are not economically feasible, and have no chance of becoming economically feasible in the near future. Spending time and effort attempting things that violate the laws of physics is a wasting that time and money. Developing technologies that are not economically feasible is also a waste.
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 11:25:26 AM

"Sure, but do you know how big and how many more generators you would need in a base camp to be able to provide enough power to recharge a motor pool of vehicles?"

The bases I have been to that generate their own power could handle some electric vehciles being plugged in.
The generator system I set up at my tent city were utlized at between 10% and no more than 60% capacity.
All that power was generated with diesel. So what would be the point of going electric? Its cheaper just to bring a diesel gator from home or go into town and buy a diesel toyota pickup.
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SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 10:09:23 AM

"That has to be the dumbest thing you've said, SoylentGrain."

I never said morons were going to pave the way to the future. What appears impossibly to many is simple to some. It's just a matter of having the skill and desire to develop those ideas.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 9:41:04 AM

"What can be accomplished is limitless."

That has to be the dumbest thing you've said, SoylentGrain. Of course there are limits to what can be accomplished; the laws of physics apply, whether you want them to or not, and they place limitations on everything we build. Energy density for batteries, in particular, has limits, which is the one that EVs are running up against.

"Batteries have become more powerful, lighter and cheaper."

...and yet, still cannot compete with petroleum fuels for energy density, nor ICE-powered vehicles for cost.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 9:28:50 AM

"every unit in the U.S. Army carries generators and tents for their base camps"

Sure, but do you know how big and how many more generators you would need in a base camp to be able to provide enough power to recharge a motor pool of vehicles?

Plus these EV's would not be staying just at base camp, then you have the issue of having to pull these generators to wherever your short ranged EV's need to go away from the camp...

So when you consider there is no fuel savings and you make things much more complicated, what's the point?



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 12/9/2013 9:30:08 AM EST]
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SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 8:56:14 AM

Good point Tim. What can be accomplished is limitless. In most cases,, the resources and answers are right in front of you. just, no one has put the pieces together, yet.
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TimEum
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 3:43:09 AM

I am surprised by the skepticism over the future of electric vehicles given the progress we have seen over the last ten years. Batteries have become more powerful, lighter and cheaper. Performance has improved greatly. We are seeing more and more manufacturers produce electric/hybrid vehicles. Some even have racing car performance. And this is just the first ten years. We can expect even better in the next generation. Past failures with old technology does not necessarily predict outcomes for newer technology. If that were the case all the failures in attempting to build flying machines would have always failed -- but today it is commonplace to fly. I believe that this is one technology that has actually reached a mature enough level to make a good business case where investments will yield success in the near future. By the way, I was a logistics officer in the U.S. Army and later a civilian in the Defense Energy Suppy Center (the part of the Defense Logistics Agency that supplies fuel to the DoD military services) and every unit in the U.S. Army carries generators and tents for their base camps.
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2013 11:06:58 PM

"adding electric motors and batteries big enough to effectively drive these vehicles would take up valuable space, space that could be used to haul munitions or food."

I think that is why the army lost interest in the hybrid hummer.
All the extra electric stuff took up room, reduced carry capacity and reduced reliability.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2013 5:59:08 PM

"By the way hybrid vehicles don't need to rely on generators"

Most vehicles used during an assault are massive, and adding electric motors and batteries big enough to effectively drive these vehicles would take up valuable space, space that could be used to haul munitions or food. Sounds impractical to me...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2013 5:55:47 PM

"It would take a lot less fuel to power generators than would go into all the trucks, tanks, and other things requiring fuel"

It would probably take MORE fuel to run the generators then all trucks, tanks, and other things. After all you will have losses as the mechanical action of the generator is turned into electricity, losses as you recharge the battery, losses as the battery discharges, plus you would be hauling extra weight around in the form of batteries. so the amount of fuel you use would not decrease it would increase...

" Generators are already part of the supply chain and so using them does not add complication to the logistics effort"

Transportation and tank units don't use generators so having to have them to keep these vehicles charged do indeed add to the logistics problem. You also have the added problem of hauling all the generators around as the units advance...
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TimEum
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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2013 1:00:02 PM

By the way hybrid vehicles don't need to rely on generators. Hybrid vehicles could also operate normally for most of their travel and yet go all electric for the last mile (into contact with the enemy) where the "quiet" operation becomes a real tactical advantage.
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TimEum
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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2013 12:51:50 PM

It would take a lot less fuel to power generators than would go into all the trucks, tanks, and other things requiring fuel. So yes, fuel would still have to be supplied, but overall the amount would be reduced significantly. Generators are already part of the supply chain and so using them does not add complication to the logistics effort. There has been a lot of technical advances over the last 10 years and so I'd believe that a relook at creating tactical vehicles with electric engines or hybrids is deserved. Another advantage is that electric vehicles are much more "quiet" than combustion engines --- that in itself would be a tactical advantage.
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2013 10:11:05 AM

" I would love seeing more military vehicles become powered by electricity rather than by gasoline or diesel or at least become plug-in hybrid. It even makes tactical sense"

The army doesn't think so. Several years ago they tested a vehicle that was dubbed the "hybrid hummer". It never went any where.

I have been places where they run vehicles 24 hours a day. When you going to charge it if you have to use it continuously all day and all night long?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Dec 8, 2013 9:55:01 AM

"It even makes tactical sense -- it would be easier logistically to set up generators than to transport and distribute fuel in remote areas"

????

You would still need fuel to power the generators, so all you are doing is adding another link to an already very long, complicated logistical chain...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 12/8/2013 9:55:00 AM EST]
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