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Author Topic: SOLAR PANELS: Do you have any on your house? Back to Topics
101Speedster

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Ventura

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Message Posted: Oct 19, 2008 12:12:22 PM

Got solar? Got wind?

Do you think that the government should be subsidizing the cost of solar panels for homeowners that want them on their houses? How about windmills?

If you have them, how many do you have? Do they cover all of your electricity usage?
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2015 5:12:31 PM



flyboy, "But you have decided to take your money and the money of others and "invest" it in a system that will need to be replaced in a few years. Economically it does not make sense to me."

And that is progressive liberalism summed up, isn't it?

Steal OTHER people's money to advance some false cockamamie scheme that doesn't have a snowball's chance of succeeding and line your own pockets with it.

It is what liberal's are all about!

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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2015 5:11:22 PM

Sounds like you're doing OK, then, flyboyUT. I have a lot of computers that run up my electric bill a lot.

In any case, solar panels are about the LAST thing anyone should do to save money on their electric bill. By far the cheapest and most effective thing is a tube of caulk. Plug any air leaks that you can find. A drafty house is an expensive house to heat and cool.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2015 4:37:07 PM

chiffey did yo follow the math in my last post.

Take $55,000 that may or may not have been your "investment" in your solar system. Invest it in a good growth and yield mutual fund. Historically they have returned about 8% but for the sake of argument lets use a return of 6.5%. That will yield roughly $3,575 per year. Now even you should be able to divide 12 into that and see something close to $300.

But that really isnt too accurate as my investments over the last 35+years have returned (after taxes) about 7-8%. So for the sake of argument lets use 7.5%. Then your monthly return starts to look like $344.

But Chiffey if you were to take what your system actually cost based on your previous posts of somewhere around $80,000 plus than at the 7.5% return you would get about $500 per month return ----- and still keep the $80,000.

But you have decided to take your money and the money of others and "invest" it in a system that will need to be replaced in a few years. Economically it does not make sense to me.

Personally I would rather pay my small monthly power bill and take the money I could have "invested" in solar power and keep on putting it in the mutual funds.

Do some math chiffey and see who will have more of an estate in another 30 years. Here chieffy - this might help you understand what I am saying.....
.
.
>>>During the 20th century the stock market returned an average of 10.4% a year. Just $1,000 invested in 1900 would be worth over $19.8 million by the end of 1999. At 15% average return per year, it only takes 30 years to turn $15,000 to $1 million.<<<
.
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Using the calculator in this link chieffy lets set a time from say 1980 to present and adjust the outcome for the effects of inflation and assume you will reinvest the dividends.
.
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>>>

Compound Annual Growth Rate (Annualized Return)

A problem with talking about average investment returns is that there is real ambiguity about what people mean by "average". For example, if you had an investment that went up 100% one year and then came down 50% the next, you certainly wouldn't say that you had an average return of 25% = (100% - 50%)/2, because your principal is back where it started: your real annualized gain is zero.

In this example, the 25% is the simple average, or "arithmetic mean". The zero percent that you really got is the "geometric mean", also called the "annualized return", or the "CAGR" for Compound Annual Growth Rate.

Volatile investments are frequently stated in terms of the simple average, rather than the CAGR that you actually get. (Bad news: the CAGR is smaller.)



CAGR of the Stock Market

This calculator lets you find the annualized growth rate of the S&P 500 over the date range you specify; you'll find that the CAGR is usually about a percent or two less than the simple average. <<<
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So chiffey I plug a date range of 1/1/80 to 12/31/14 into it and tell it to adjust for inflation and include dividends and it spits out a "True CAGR" of 8.35% and says that each dollar invested in 1/1/80 is worth about $16.56 now. But that isnt the real story if you had been investing say a fixed or increasing (inflation adjusted) amount each month. Then suddenly your "solar investment" begins to really look sick.

But by all means dont believe me - go ask a financial advisor who you trust....
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2015 11:29:46 AM

Flyboob
Gee, you have a $70.00 electric bill. My first bill in this house was $365.00 for 1 month. That's over 5 times what you say your average is.
Oh, tell me your magic investment that nets over $300.00 per month. I have a little set aside, I may be interested?
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flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2015 10:29:19 AM

idheinz - believe it or not I actually keep track of my electric, water and gas usage by month and year in a spreadsheet I use. It started as kind of a joke but I have kept it up for about 8 years now. My average electric use per month has been about 722 KWH for that length of time. It will bounce around month to month with the highest being in the heat of the summer and the least being in the winter. But when its cooler here the gas goes up to offset the reduced electric so it all balances out. My average electric bill is less than $70. That is before they add in all the "fees, taxes, surcharges and assessments " etc. Where I live you pay for your electric and water and all other stuff except gas on one bill. FYI - I have already added extra insulation in the attic - did it 20 years ago.

I continually chuckle at chiffey who says I need to "invest" 30-80 thousand dollars (depending on what day he is trying to tell us how much his system cost) to save 70 bucks a month. He just will not accept that people can take that same (lets average it out) 55K and invest it and get a net monthly return of in excess of 300 bucks. So he really does think it makes sense to lose over 300 a month to pay a 70 buck bill.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2015 9:51:23 AM

"Shockie. What about your "power bills will skyrocket"?"

Chief my bill would have to go way way WAY up before Solar power would be economical. If it ever gets to that point, then I would consider solar. However I am not going to install an uneconomical power system, rely on the taxpayers to help me pay for it, then try to make silly claims about how much money I've saved, unlike some less then honest people...
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2015 4:44:22 AM

Check for drafts & consider a thermal imaging camera.
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2015 4:41:46 AM

I use about 800 kWh/month. Have you tried using a clamp ammeter to find out where the power goes? My guess is that water heater and pump is taking a lot.
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EZExit
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 25, 2015 2:20:26 AM

A typical home in Phoenix has R-13 walls (2x4 construction) or R-19 walls (2x6 construction), while having R-30 in the attic, and R-38 if they upgraded.

I can't help you understand Chief's case, as it appears he doesn't even understand his own to communicate it to us, but in my case I will offer you my own electric use stats...

My home is 2x6 construction, R-19 plus R-5 foam sheathing on the walls, and R-38 in the 10' tall ceilings (12' tall in kitchen, living room, dining room, & family room). It is a 3,600 square foot single level home, with another 1,600 sq. ft of garage space. One 80 gallon electric water heater with circulation pump, electric dryer, electric double oven, electric 6 burner cook top, one freezer, two refrigerators, a wine fridge, and three 3.5 ton heat pumps.

Looking at my bill right now, I used 1,614kWh in March 2014 (the lowest use), and 3,766kWh in August 2014 (the highest use). My lowest bill is about $175 (electric rates per kWh are also lowest during the winter), and about $590 in the summer (they crank the rates during the summer too).

Average daily use from my last bill from December was 80kWh. I can't find a bill from August right off hand, but needless to say, it has considerably higher usage.

***************

LDHeinz, FYI, I am quite familiar with Chicago (and high electric bills), I was born and raised there, at least it was in the south suburbs (Tinley Park).
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 11:42:03 PM

flyboyUT, if you have a $400 electric bill, it doesn't matter how much insulation you have, you need more. Even in Chicago, I pay more for electricity than I do for natural gas. Insulation works to keep heat out just as much as it keeps heat in. My insulation is to keep my A/C bills down MORE than it is for keeping my gas bills down.
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 11:24:01 PM

idheinz----- while I realize it doesnt make a lot of sense in one respect even though we live in warmer climates - we just dont need as much insulation as when I was a kid in Minnecolda.

Lets say its 50 below (which I saw all too often in Minnecolda) and your trying to keep the house 65 degrees on the inside. That means you have a temp difference of 135 degrees - huge difference and it takes a lot of insulation to deal with it.

Well when its 115 here in the summer and I'm only cooling to 84 inside the differential is only 31 degrees. Just as if it was a fall day of 34 degrees outside and you were still trying to keep it at 65. Now if it seldom if ever got less than 34 degrees outside would yo still build the very highly insulated homes?

Now I have something like R40 in the ceiling and R 20 in the walls and double pane thermopane windows - its enough for here.

But I still dont waste my money and the money of others on solar systems......

[Edited by: flyboyUT at 1/24/2015 11:24:30 PM EST]
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 10:29:35 PM

EZExit - "Out here in a more "temperate" climate, many homes are all electric, so when you heat your water, heat the house, cool the house (in 110 degree summers), and use electric stoves to cook with, you use more electricity than you might in Chicago. Then there is the pool equipment, if one has a pool."

Actually, it's been my experience that people in milder climates don't take weatherstripping and insulation seriously. Chicago has some of the highest electric rates in the country, and my summer (central A/C) bill rarely exceeds $100. This is because even when it hits 100 degrees the A/C doesn't run very much. It's because of R-50 ceilings and R-30 walls, triple pane windows, and no air leakage. From inside, I really can't tell if it's 50 degrees or 10 degrees outside without looking out to see if stuff is frozen.
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 10:17:25 PM



Well, IQs of 40 obviously have a problem understanding what was actually said.

ROTFL

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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 10:01:28 PM

Anotherwhat
So you admit to a 40 I.Q. Thought you would never admit it. To bad!
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 6:48:13 PM



ChiefAZ, "An I.Q of 40 is not going to get you any place?"

Is someone admitting why he cannot answer simple questions?

Let me repeat the questions slowly for you.

text deleted

Even IQs of 40 can answer that.

;-)

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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 6:43:38 PM

borsht
Another 40 I.Q. chiming in?
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 6:40:51 PM

Anotherwhat
"Oh, Chief, J am wise enough for now"
An I.Q of 40 is not going to get you any place?
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 5:22:07 PM



ChiefAZ, "Wise up and shut up!"

Oh, Chief, I am wise enough for now.

And I am sure you want EVERYONE to shut up and not expose your li..... errrrrr, your negative truth.

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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 3:29:25 PM

AnotherWhat
If you had read below my entry you would have seen the Shockie quoted Obama
on the "your power bill will skyrocket".
I was referring to Shockie's entry.
Gee, you only read one entry at a time and play games with it. You must have had the same teacher for readings as you had for understanding.
Wise up and shut up!
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 3:24:13 PM

EZpleaseExiit
"So it's either he's lying or he lives in a refrigerator".
So cute and so dumb;
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 1:50:47 PM

Hello Chiefaz ;
Are you reporting your 'profit' to the IRS? Since you claim you're making a profit on it.
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EZExit
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 12:09:14 PM

OK, so we can eliminate batteries off the grid...

So it's either that he's lying, or in the refrigerator box.
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 11:59:42 AM



ChiefAZ, "If you read below the price of my system is plainly stated."

No it isn't.

It is becoming VERY obvious why you refuse to give figures and why you continue to try and confuse.

And when confusing doesn't work for you, it is obvious why you over and over just make personal attacks on people.

VERY telling!

SMH

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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 11:54:32 AM

EZpleaseEXit
Another slow learner.
I do not have batteries as said way back when. I feed enough power into the
grid to cover what I use plus a surplus. As stated numerous times, I make enough power annually to cover my usage and get a small Christmas check.
Any other questions, Oh slow one?
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 11:51:19 AM

Anotherwhat?
You still have trouble reading. I stated my power bills are Zero. That means I make enough power during the day to cover my power usage tomorrow. This takes into fact that I am making more power than I use tomorrow. I make enough power to coverage my usage and have a little left over for a little Christmas bonus.
If you read below the price of my system is plainly stated.
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 11:49:06 AM



ChiefAZ, "What about your "power bills will skyrocket"? You don't even believe your own statements."

Now you are quoting Obama's PROMISE!

Obama is the one who said HE will make your power bills SKYROCKET!

Also,ChiefAZ, you STILL don't give simple figures of how much the total cost of your system was, who paid what, etc.

Why is is so HARD for you to be honest with everyone here and give actual hard numbers?



[Edited by: AnotherOne at 1/24/2015 11:50:23 AM EST]
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 11:44:34 AM

Shockie. What about your "power bills will skyrocket"? You don't even believe your own statements. Why should anyone believe what you say.
You say my power bills will never be zero. My system has paid for it self and I am still getting enough power to cover my power usage per year. Your point???????/

[Edited by: Chiefaz at 1/24/2015 11:46:23 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 11:00:48 AM

"And when your power bill skyrockets to $1,000.00 a month my power bill will still say "Zero"."

For one Chief, you power bill never has and never will be "zero". Secondly, I highly doubt my electric bill will ever be $1000 a month. But you go ahead a keep making up figures. You obviously have a lot of practice making up figures that just don't add up...
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 12:14:58 AM


CHiefAZ, "And when your power bill skyrockets to $1,000.00 a month my power bill will still say "Zero". Save you didn't use your "expertise" to solve your problem before that happens. Again to all you naysayers, ZERO POWEER BILL!"

So now you are claiming that your solar panels provide 100% of your power, 24 hours a day.

Yeah right!

ROTFL

Tell us another one.

Also tell us ChiefAZ why you can't answer simple straight forward questions about the total cost of your system and who paid what.

Can you tell us?

SMH

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EZExit
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 24, 2015 12:04:36 AM

Chief, how many batteries do you have to collect power off of those arrays? If you have a zero power bill, thank I know you are either lying again, or, you are off the grid, and I underestimated the $81,000 you paid for your system, or you are living in a refrigerator box under a bridge by the river.
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 5:13:39 PM

Shockie
And when your power bill skyrockets to $1,000.00 a month my power bill will still say "Zero". Save you didn't use your "expertise" to solve your problem before that happens. Again to all you naysayers, ZERO POWEER BILL!

[Edited by: Chiefaz at 1/23/2015 5:21:42 PM EST]
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 4:38:02 PM



President Barack Hussein Obama, "Under my plan, electrical rates will NECESSARILY SKYROCKET!"

Progressive liberals, YOU DESERVE what you get.

Just don't damage all the rest of us with your insane progressive liberal ideas.

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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 4:07:04 PM

Installing solar is one of the main reasons that electrical is skyrocketing. So once again CHief, the liberal policies that you so earnestly embrace are one of the reasons others are paying higher prices, again subsidizing your uneconomical solution...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 1/23/2015 4:09:19 PM EST]
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 4:03:28 PM

Shockie
Electrical power skyrocketing is one of the reason I installed a solar system.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 3:45:17 PM

"If solar is sooo bad why is APS' parent company so willing to invest millions of dollars in it.."

It think that has already been pointed out Chief. Liberal government policies mandate that electrical utility companies have a minimum amount of alternative energy production on their grid or face heavy fines and or penalties. It's one of the main reason that electrical power is sky rocketing...

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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 11:44:58 AM

EZpleaseEXIT. Correction, payoff would be a little over 7 years not 5. My bad.
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 11:40:26 AM

EZpleaseEXIT
And I am not a Certified Financial Advisor. That takes mucho classroom and study time. I retired but not to school. I got my Class 7 license by study and testing.
Licensed, certified. Gee, you almost sound dirty.
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 11:33:47 AM

EZnotEXit
Your stupidity knows no bounds!
1.My contribution,as you call it, was $29,000 for both installations.
At your figures the pay back would be a little over 5 years.
2. I have never stated that I was an Electrical Engineer. I was an Electronic Technician in the Air Force. Where you got your statements are beyond me, pull them out of somewhere I guess.
If solar is sooo bad why is APS' parent company so willing to invest millions of dollars in it.. They must see a profit in it.
AND NO, not one dime of your money paid for my unit.


[Edited by: Chiefaz at 1/23/2015 11:34:41 AM EST]
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EZExit
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 11:19:58 AM

LDHeinz: <<<"Wow! Ever heard of CFLs?">>>

--Out here in a more "temperate" climate, many homes are all electric, so when you heat your water, heat the house, cool the house (in 110 degree summers), and use electric stoves to cook with, you use more electricity than you might in Chicago. Then there is the pool equipment, if one has a pool.

On the flip side, there is no gas bill...

[Edited by: EZExit at 1/23/2015 11:20:23 AM EST]
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Jan 23, 2015 8:31:57 AM

EZExit - "your average electric bill was probably $250 in the winter and $400 in the peak, or $3,900 a year."

Wow! Ever heard of CFLs?
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EZExit
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2015 10:20:53 PM

Chief, the government mandates to all utilities that they shall have "x" amount of alternative energy in their "grid", and they mandate how they shall do it in regards to residential systems such as your own. That is why the electric company had you sign over any "carbon credits" that you would have otherwise been entitled to.

Apparently, as a certified financial planner, you are somehow misguided as to what an "investor" is. I'll bet that you were inspired into financial planning while watching Marlon Brando's character in "The Godfather". What's your vision of a 401K? A lottery ticket?

But the truth is, that while solar energy is neat and cool, it's not financially prudent. You were told what you wanted to hear, and you were allured with tax credits and utility subsidies, that still left you upside down for 4.5 years of the expected 20 year life span of the equipment, or the whole time if you financed it.

Even though you are also a licensed electrical engineer, I don't believe that you even know what your system features, you already offered conflicting data on the system you have, who knows what it really is...

But if your system design was indeed for 8,000 watts (not volts mind you), and it was properly based upon your normal demand, your average electric bill was probably $250 in the winter and $400 in the peak, or $3,900 a year. Your portion of the $56,000 using those numbers won't equalize until after 14.35 years, and that is leaving out your other costs for maintaining a grid connection, the electric you use when the solar isn't working (at night), or when you exceed the capacity, and the inverter replacement after about 10 years use.

You have already demonstrated your lack of credibility, yet you keep coming back loosing even more, how come?
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2015 10:19:08 PM



So would you clearly state-

-how much your system cost
-how much you paid
-do you get only the $30 a month or do you get more
-who is APS
-do you get part part of the $90,000
-how much

Thanks for your answers, ChiefAZ.

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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2015 10:03:06 PM

AnotherWhat
You and all your know it alls did not pay for my systems. APS is a part of a large holding company. Their business is investing to make money. They invested in me. They are now looking for 3,000 homeowners to let them
mount solar system on their roofs oriented western to increase the late afternoon output. In return they will give the homeowner $30.00 off their monthly bill. Seems like APS and their parent company think solar is a good investment. They are wiiling to pay $90,000 a month to the homeowners for all the electricity generated. Where dos this leave all you know it alls?

[Edited by: Chiefaz at 1/22/2015 10:03:57 PM EST]
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2015 7:26:54 PM



ChiefAZ, "Now you say $56,000. Read down, my cost for both systems was $29,000."

That isn't the question.

What is the TOTAL cost of your systems?

SOMEONE paid for them even if you didn't!

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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2015 6:45:30 PM

Flyboob
Now you say $56,000. Read down, my cost for both systems was $29,000.
Redo you computations.
If only you could read.

[Edited by: Chiefaz at 1/22/2015 6:45:43 PM EST]
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flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2015 4:52:52 PM

Just think A1 - if he would have taken that same 56K and put it in a good investment that returned a net 8% per year for those 46 years he would have something on the order of 1.8 million dollars in the bank - But I guess that doesnt matter to chiffey - he saved money he says.
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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2015 4:23:35 PM



CHiefAZ, if your system cost (somebody) $56,000 and your electric bill is $100 per month, that means you could pay ALL of your electric bills for FORTY SIX YEARS with what you spent.

And STILL have money left over!

And you would have to completely REPLACE your entire system long before it was 46 years old!

MORE proof that solar power is still TOTALLY IMPRACTICAL.

SMH

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AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 22, 2015 4:20:43 PM



ChiefAZ, so let's see - $56,000, $39,000, $11,000, $17,000, $18,000, $11,000.

It is very hard to keep up with your numbers.

Do you run a carnival shell game sideshow as a parttime job?

ROTFL

ChiefAZ, "You and your ilk did not pay for my system. APS, out of profits and I from my bank account paid for over 90% of the first system. So buzz off all you know it alls (know as genius')"

ROTFL

WOW.

The generator is wound a little tight!

ROTFL

So you AND APS paid for your first system?

How much did YOU pay?

And how much did APS (I assume that is Arizona Power something or other) pay?

And WHY did APS pay anything out of their 'profits'?

THAT money should have gone back to consumers or shareholders who obviously OVERPAID if they have money to throw around like that.

So, everyone else AND I DID pay for your system.

Why should we do that, Chief?

Pay for your own!

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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:24,453
Points:2,911,865
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Jan 22, 2015 3:49:24 PM

"You and your ilk did not pay for my system. APS, out of profits and I from
my bank account paid for over 90% of the first system."

Then why the huger discrepancy in your numbers chief?

Just more proof that the truth is not what you are telling...
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

Posts:3,642
Points:1,534,445
Joined:Sep 2008
Message Posted: Jan 21, 2015 2:18:03 PM

Anotherone
Yep another know it all pops up.
You and your ilk did not pay for my system. APS, out of profits and I from
my bank account paid for over 90% of the first system. So buzz off all you know it alls (know as genius')
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:24,344
Points:3,086,005
Joined:May 2006
Message Posted: Jan 21, 2015 10:48:32 AM

EZExit - "I note your past occupations change daily too."

Yeah, a while back when we did the math showing how much better off he'd have been investing in the stock market instead of solar panels he was suddenly a retired investment manager as well.

EZExit estimated a while back of a cost of $81,000 for the system, which is probably about the REAL cost of the system, before subsidies. So we can see how much others have paid for this hobby.

However, the continuous changing of the stories makes me go back to Chiefaz really being a 10-year-old with dreams of greatness. Perhaps it's his dad's system, and he doesn't want to admit that his dad really screwed the pooch financially, spending his college money on an albatross.
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