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Author Topic: Do you think the "rich" should be paying more in taxes? Back to Topics
101Speedster
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Ventura

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Message Posted: Aug 20, 2005 3:12:20 PM

If so, how do you define rich?
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 2:04:24 PM

"Do you think the "rich" should be paying more in taxes?"

No.

I know it.
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 1:29:23 PM

"So you're operating under three basic misconceptions.

1) That BO is either an exponent of "mainstream leftest dogma" or an "icon of the left" (except through political necessity).

2) That you have any actual idea what "mainstream leftest dogma" is.

3) That anyone who doesn't agree with you must be a "liberal", whatever that means to you."

Seems there are quite a few on the right that are suffering this diagnosis (and yes, you can find examples from the left as well although they seem fewer in number these days)... Which is too bad because they detract from real, honest discourse.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 7:21:03 PM

mudtoe - "a position which is also mainstream leftest dogma, my beliefs are elevated to far more than a pile of straw, regardless of whatever an insignificant Iowa liberal says to the contrary."

So you're operating under three basic misconceptions.

1) That BO is either an exponent of "mainstream leftest dogma" or an "icon of the left" (except through political necessity).

2) That you have any actual idea what "mainstream leftest dogma" is.

3) That anyone who doesn't agree with you must be a "liberal", whatever that means to you.

Any one of those could be enough to mean that your position is built on a pile of straw. All three....

[Edited by: rjhenn at 2/17/2015 7:21:58 PM EST]
teacher_tim
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 6:20:42 PM

Tithing works for me. Charge every single person or corporation 10% for every single thing they buy, from toilet paper and medicine to shares of stock and skyscrapers. Nothing is exempt for anybody, especially government officials.
mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 5:32:10 PM

rjh: "Which doesn't mean that your beliefs aren't built on straw."


Sure it does. When the President of the United States, arguably the single most powerful individual in the world, as well as an icon of the left, whether a buffoon or not, says that the more important purpose of taxes is to enforce someone's idea of "fairness" rather than fund government, a position which is also mainstream leftest dogma, my beliefs are elevated to far more than a pile of straw, regardless of whatever an insignificant Iowa liberal says to the contrary.

mudtoe

[Edited by: mudtoe at 2/17/2015 5:32:39 PM EST]
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 4:07:35 PM

mudtoe - "Doesn't matter. A buffoon with power is just as dangerous and just as relevant, if not more so, than someone with power who knows what they are doing."

Which doesn't mean that your beliefs aren't built on straw.

mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 2:56:49 PM

rjh: "Well, since you're making the completely unwarranted assumption that BO knows what he's talking about...."


Doesn't matter. A buffoon with power is just as dangerous and just as relevant, if not more so, than someone with power who knows what they are doing.


mudtoe
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 1:57:49 PM

mudtoe - "I think we all know who the big pile of straw is...."

Well, since you're making the completely unwarranted assumption that BO knows what he's talking about....

rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 1:56:27 PM

SoylentGrain - "That big pile of straw you just referred to has been the basis of your argument for higher taxes."

And you, too, are imagining things.
mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 9:29:20 AM

rjh: "Nope, just a big pile of straw. "


I think we all know who the big pile of straw is....



mudtoe
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 9:16:56 AM

"Nope, just a big pile of straw."

That big pile of straw you just referred to has been the basis of your argument for higher taxes.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2015 2:09:31 AM

mudtoe - "Really? Just read socialiststeve's rants about the rich and then you tell me. For extra credit, remember Obama's statement acknowledging that higher taxes on the wealthy don't necessarily result in more revenue to the government, but that's not the point because it's about "fairness". I'd say that when the President of the United States says that taxes are about "fairness" rather than funding government, it's quite a bit more than a "pile of straw"."

Nope, just a big pile of straw.
SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 4:51:10 PM

"Steve just how long do yo think we can afford to allow the govt to double the entire national debt every 6-8 years without consequences? "

I endorse a policy of taxing the rich more to pay down the debt.

After all. They set the policy that made them rich in the first place.
flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 3:19:44 PM

Yes it probably would Steve ---- but how much more will it hurt if our lack of spending control and lack of inflating the money supply results in an economic meltdown. What do yo think will happen to all of us if the dollar is no longer looked at as the worlds go to currency?

Steve just how long do yo think we can afford to allow the govt to double the entire national debt every 6-8 years without consequences?
SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 2:36:22 PM

Your plan would cause great hardship and impact the economy negatively, fly.

But the good part is it has a zero chance of passing.

So, dream on.
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 11:01:58 AM

"Really?"

Yes, really...
flyboyUT
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 10:57:20 AM


Steve you said --- "Everybody knows the debt is too great to be effectively reduced by the conscientious efforts of magnanimously concerned individuals. It needs to be policy change to tip the scales, which is why so many advocate for that. We got into this debt together; and together we can work our way out of it."

First sentence - not everybody even know that we as a nation have a debt much less has any idea of the size of it. Yes I can agree that there needs to be a serious policy change. We need to change our present socialist govt policies of giving money away to everyone and the govt being the source of funds to get back to what it was a long time back. As far as so many advocating for it - that day has not come yet. It will not come until the govt finally can no longer print/borrow money to buy votes and feel good promises.

As far as working our way out of it - I know of a way and it is rather draconian and not many folks will like it. Force congress to pass a law that says regardless of what the money is allocated for there will be one percent less to spend each year in total until two things happen - total expenditures,regardless of reason, equal total income from all sources. Then the one percent cut continues until we have reached the point where the actual federal debt is being reduced. At this point the cuts can stop until the debt is completely paid off. After the debt is paid off the spending may rise as approved by a super majority of the people.

Now will tis have huge implications - for sure it will. Life as we now know it will come to a rather abrupt halt. No more will govt agencies continue to expand to fill the dreams of govt employees and politicians. No more will politicians as influenced by donations of rich folks continue to spend ever more money that we really dont have.

The politicians will actually have to do one of the things they are paid for - make a budget and see it is implemented and followed.

Hey maybe we will actually start to see just what is really important and what isnt. Maybe we will find out if research on how fast shrimp can run on a treadmill is more important than defending the country.
SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 10:20:03 AM

I can see why.
mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 10:17:20 AM

rjh: "What a huge pile of straw. "


Really? Just read socialiststeve's rants about the rich and then you tell me. For extra credit, remember Obama's statement acknowledging that higher taxes on the wealthy don't necessarily result in more revenue to the government, but that's not the point because it's about "fairness". I'd say that when the President of the United States says that taxes are about "fairness" rather than funding government, it's quite a bit more than a "pile of straw".


mudtoe

[Edited by: mudtoe at 2/16/2015 10:18:28 AM EST]
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 9:00:59 AM

I don't believe in luck.
SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 8:57:33 AM

You're guessing.

And doing badly at it.

Don't go to Vegas with luck like that.
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 8:53:07 AM

"We got into this debt together; and together we can work our way out of it. "

....with other peoples' money, not yours.
SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 8:49:51 AM

"The conscientious super rich think they should be paying higher taxes."

Fly: "They already can Steve - they choose not to do so.

But you can also pay more taxes any time you wish - are you doing so and if not --- why not? Don't you believe in what you say or is it just that the other guy is supposed to do what you say?"

Everybody knows the debt is too great to be effectively reduced by the conscientious efforts of magnanimously concerned individuals. It needs to be policy change to tip the scales, which is why so many advocate for that. We got into this debt together; and together we can work our way out of it.

[Edited by: SemiSteve at 2/16/2015 8:55:21 AM EST]
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 2:27:28 AM

mudtoe - "From the left's perspective the mere fact that these people have the money to pay the taxes is proof that they aren't paying enough. Their goal for the tax code is to take these people's wealth and prevent others from ever accumulating that much in the first place. Funding government places a distant third or fourth behind wealth redistribution and social engineering for the left as far as the purpose of the tax code is concerned. Once you understand that, then everything they are doing and support makes perfect sense in that context."

What a huge pile of straw.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 2:26:11 AM

theTower - "aren't you conscientious and forking over more of your money?
LOL...
I don't think so.
But you certainly have no problem wanting others to do it because you think its the right thing to do.
Do as I say Not as I do liberalism at its finest."

So what makes you think that Steve is "super rich"?
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 2:25:51 AM

AnotherOne - "Other than their own progressive liberal GREED."

So you're saying that, at root, the "conscientious super rich" are no different than the greedy conservative super rich.

I tend to agree.

So why do you support one set of greedy bastards over the other, when both are focused on sucking as much out of you as they can?
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 2:24:12 AM

BigJake - "You missed what he was saying or you are trying to twist it into something else. Mudtoe's comment was about what customers want and are willing to pay to get it - Consumer's determine the quality necessary to sell a product every time they buy something."

And you're missing what I'm saying: as long as employers are only willing to pay for low quality and cheap labor, they're not going to see much growth in their business, because too few of their potential customers can afford to buy their product.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 2/16/2015 2:24:30 AM EST]
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2015 2:23:42 AM

SoylentGrain - "Has it occurred to you that Costco doesn't manufacture anything. They move, literally, boatloads of product that others make. The bulk of their business cost is not labor, but product."

Which, depending on what they're manufacturing, is also true of a lot of manufacturers.

"I know two people who own companies that supply Costco. One of them makes a product a majority of folks buy every time they enter the store. They both use near minimum wage labor to produce their product."

And both are 'contributing' to a stagnant economy.

"Sorry to burst your balloon, so to speak."

What makes you think you burst anything?
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 15, 2015 7:34:34 PM

"What the heck - everyone should make loads more money and have to pay a lot more tax... See problem solved.... "

I agree with you there. When that happens, and I hope it does, you would see people calling for lower tax rates all over the place. You are right, "problem solved."
flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Feb 15, 2015 4:26:34 PM

What the heck - everyone should make loads more money and have to pay a lot more tax... See problem solved....
mudtoe
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Message Posted: Feb 15, 2015 3:44:49 PM

cd: "As I (and others on this thread) have pointed out before, the US has the MOST PROGRESSIVE INCOME TAX system of any first-world country. Much more so than those paragons of "fairness" in Europe. "


From the left's perspective the mere fact that these people have the money to pay the taxes is proof that they aren't paying enough. Their goal for the tax code is to take these people's wealth and prevent others from ever accumulating that much in the first place. Funding government places a distant third or fourth behind wealth redistribution and social engineering for the left as far as the purpose of the tax code is concerned. Once you understand that, then everything they are doing and support makes perfect sense in that context.


mudtoe

[Edited by: mudtoe at 2/15/2015 3:45:28 PM EST]
Cirdan
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Message Posted: Feb 15, 2015 2:28:46 PM

I pulled some data from the IRS website for tax year 2014.

Income > $200K constituted 3.8% of returns and paid 54.15% of total income taxes. Average (not marginal) tax rate 23.4%.

Income < 40K comprised 56% of returns, and paid 3.87% of total income taxes. Average tax rate was 3.8%.

The much attacked 1% (actually 0.7% of people with AGI > $500,000) paid 33.57% of income taxes.

15% of people reported incomes >$100K, and paid 77.2% of taxes

The 30% (29.1%) between 40K and $100K paid 18.9% of total income tax revenues.

As I (and others on this thread) have pointed out before, the US has the MOST PROGRESSIVE INCOME TAX system of any first-world country. Much more so than those paragons of "fairness" in Europe.
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Feb 15, 2015 12:40:33 PM

"...and when unemployment was higher."

Unemployment was in the 4% range towards the end of W's term?

reb4
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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 2:45:24 PM

"The conscientious super rich think they should be paying higher taxes."






Actually, many of the super rich, (whatever that means) can easily pay more money... Though most choose to directly donate to cause and avoid "taxes" and the middleman......


[Edited by: reb4 at 2/14/2015 2:47:16 PM EST]
mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 11:13:29 AM

SocialistSteve: "The conscientious super rich think they should be paying higher taxes. "


But they never just sit down and write that extra check to Uncle Sam, do they? They are just so busy that they don't have time for a 2 minute phone call to their accountants to tell them to cut a check.

So what does this mean? There are only two possibilities:


1). They are lying, likely in order to keep the liberal left off of them for being rich by acting like they support the left's goal of higher taxes on the rich when they really don't.

2). They think some other rich people need to pay more, but not them.




mudtoe



[Edited by: mudtoe at 2/14/2015 11:14:46 AM EST]
flyboyUT
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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 10:35:48 AM

"The conscientious super rich think they should be paying higher taxes."

They already can Steve - they choose not to do so.

But you can also pay more taxes any time you wish - are you doing so and if not --- why not? Don't you believe in what you say or is it just that the other guy is supposed to do what you say?
AnotherOne
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 10:32:47 AM



SemiSteve, "The conscientious super rich think they should be paying higher taxes."

As Tower already said, they CAN! But they DON'T.

SemiSteve, your "conscientious super rich" are nothing more than dishonest and mindless progressive liberals.

They spout their dishonest progressive liberal platitudes simply to make themselves FEEL better.

They are dishonest because they do not DO what they spout.

They can pay ALL that they want.

NO ONE is stopping them.

Other than their own progressive liberal GREED.

SMH



[Edited by: AnotherOne at 2/14/2015 10:33:45 AM EST]
theTower
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 10:23:55 AM

"The conscientious super rich think they should be paying higher taxes."

They already can. If they are as "conscientious" as you claim they are, they should already be paying higher taxes.
Why don't they semisteve?
Gifts to the United States U.S. Department of the Treasury Credit Accounting Branch 3700 East-West Highway, Room 622D Hyattsville, MD 20782
"Money deposited into this account is for general use by the federal government and can be available for budget needs. These contributions are considered an unconditional gift to the government."

aren't you conscientious and forking over more of your money?
LOL...
I don't think so.
But you certainly have no problem wanting others to do it because you think its the right thing to do.
Do as I say Not as I do liberalism at its finest.
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 10:16:18 AM

"To the topic, rolling back the W era tax cuts for the rich to levels that were being paid when the economy was strong is not a bad thing. "

....and when unemployment was higher.
SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 10:06:15 AM

The conscientious super rich think they should be paying higher taxes.
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 10:02:38 AM

"Mudtoe's comment was about what customers want and are willing to pay to get it - Consumer's determine the quality necessary to sell a product every time they buy something."

It has been my experience that people buy what they can afford. If you cannot afford wood flooring, you buy laminate... I don't know many people that would desire laminate over wood flooring - although there is always an exception.

To the topic, rolling back the W era tax cuts for the rich to levels that were being paid when the economy was strong is not a bad thing.
BigJake
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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 9:53:13 AM

rj, 'you're satisfied with mediocre quality and mediocre growth.' - You missed what he was saying or you are trying to twist it into something else. Mudtoe's comment was about what customers want and are willing to pay to get it - Consumer's determine the quality necessary to sell a product every time they buy something.
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2015 9:25:45 AM

"Tell that to Costco."

Has it occurred to you that Costco doesn't manufacture anything. They move, literally, boatloads of product that others make. The bulk of their business cost is not labor, but product. Yes, Costco hires good people and pays them what they are worth. But the main reason you can buy good product at a reasonable price at Costco is they don't pay much for the product they sell.

Costco's model is like a big water balloon. You've got labor and overhead on one small end, product cost in the large middle, and profit on the other small end. Costco squeezes that middle portion to nothing. I can assure you, Costco might pay a employees higher wages and make money. But the people making their product are getting squeezed and are using low cost labor.

I know two people who own companies that supply Costco. One of them makes a product a majority of folks buy every time they enter the store. They both use near minimum wage labor to produce their product.

Sorry to burst your balloon, so to speak.



[Edited by: SoylentGrain at 2/14/2015 9:28:03 AM EST]
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Jan 16, 2015 3:04:48 PM

mudtoe - "There is only one person who is too dumb to see what's going on around them, and I'll clue you in, it ain't me, and it ain't all the other business owners."

Tell that to Costco.

"My reality (and a business owner's reality): People pay what they have to to get the goods and services that they want, including labor, and they don't believe it's in their best interests to pay more than they have to. They may pay more for better quality in some circumstances, but they won't pay more for the same quality they can get for less."

IOW, you're satisfied with mediocre quality and mediocre growth.
mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jan 16, 2015 10:39:57 AM

rjh: "Reality: according to you, everyone running a business is too dumb to see what's going on around them."


There is only one person who is too dumb to see what's going on around them, and I'll clue you in, it ain't me, and it ain't all the other business owners. My reality (and a business owner's reality): People pay what they have to to get the goods and services that they want, including labor, and they don't believe it's in their best interests to pay more than they have to. They may pay more for better quality in some circumstances, but they won't pay more for the same quality they can get for less.


mudtoe



[Edited by: mudtoe at 1/16/2015 10:48:31 AM EST]
PopcornPirate
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Message Posted: Jan 16, 2015 9:38:11 AM

NAFTA was suppose to battle the trade imbalance between the Americas & the Far East by strengthening our position to send more product there. It did not happen. US-Canada works maybe So-SO. US-Mexico is a nightmare of problems . On top of that it did nothing to balance out the trade deficit with the Far East.
Cirdan
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Message Posted: Jan 16, 2015 1:04:14 AM

I'm a politician's worst nightmare - I remember things. NAFTA was supposed to REDUCE immigration by providing jobs in Mexico.
MiddletownMarty
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Jan 14, 2015 12:55:59 PM

Maybe it's time to take a critical look at NAFTA to discern what role it has played (and is playing) in encouraging migrants to come here. It's not the whole story, but it's a good place to start.

I75at7AM
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Jan 14, 2015 12:21:30 PM

Marty......we agree !!! Don't forget Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador. Venezuela.

Actually things have improved somewhat in Mexico, and quite a lot in Colombia. A lot of Colombia's progress has been since the government squelched the cocaine cartels. Busted them up and shut them down. Everyday life for citizens has gotten better, more secure, and the local economies have improved.
Christmas lights in Medellin
Medellin Colombia offers an unlikely model for urban renaissance
‘Social urbanism’ experiment breathes new life into Colombia’s Medellin
Hoping that "social urbanism" is nothing like "urban socialism"......

[Edited by: I75at7AM at 1/14/2015 12:22:46 PM EST]
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Jan 14, 2015 12:20:35 PM

mudtoe - "Guess you will never know because nobody running a business is dumb enough to listen to you."

Reality: according to you, everyone running a business is too dumb to see what's going on around them.

"Liberalism and the left killed patriotism by constantly slamming the values upon which this country was founded and by increasingly punishing the success those values made possible."

The only value you're supporting appears to be greed.
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Jan 14, 2015 12:20:19 PM

SemiSteve - "So if conservatives had their way the USA would be undesirable to migrate to?"

Actually, the goal should be to keep the disaffected at home to create pressure for positive change back where they came from.

After all, that's how we got positive change here.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 1/14/2015 12:20:54 PM EST]
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