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Author Topic: Do you think the "rich" should be paying more in taxes? Back to Topics
101Speedster

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Ventura

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Message Posted: Aug 20, 2005 3:12:20 PM

If so, how do you define rich?
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2014 7:20:02 PM

One reason why "the rich" pay the taxes they do.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 2:15:35 PM

"Hey, all you doubters? When was the last time you heard of American Food
manufacturers killed someone with impure food?
Happens daily with Chinese products. Hell, they even kill their own kids with adulterated food."

Another effect of unregulated Capitalism. But nothing to do regarding the question of the merits of asking the wealthy to pay more in taxes...
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Chiefaz
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 12:23:02 PM

Hey, all you doubters? When was the last time you heard of American Food
manufacturers killed someone with impure food?
Happens daily with Chinese products. Hell, they even kill their own kids with adulterated food.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 9:41:01 AM

"Actually, we're losing production to China because they'll let business exploit the worker a lot more than they're allowed to here."

An effect of unregulated capitalism - which is why labor unions came into existence in the US.

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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2014 12:16:35 AM

SoylentGrain - "Neither are free market economies, especially Russia. Ask McDonalds corporation. In both countries, you can do what the government says and no more."

And if the government says you can take advantage, then you take all they'll allow.

"It should be a wakeup call that producers are leaving for China. The reason, minimal or no environmental regulations and the 90 hour work week. Go to China and work for a while. Tell me how great it is. We are losing production to China because of regulation."

Actually, we're losing production to China because they'll let business exploit the worker a lot more than they're allowed to here.

"My stepson has spent the past year in a small Chinese city of 1.2 million. He has your beliefs, weaslespit and rj. You'd like him. He has often told me of the advantages of the Chinese partnership with government and business. Well, now that he's been there a while with the pollution, the curfews, the government intrusion, and discrimination, he might have had enough. It ain't as cool as he thought."

Because they don't have the regulation we've got.

"Neither China nor Russia have free markets. The free market is slipping in the US. China just makes it easier to manufacture, thus cheaper. I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about adopting China as a model. You wouldn't like it."

Say what? You're the one who approves of China as a model.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 7:30:40 PM

"Must be why both Russia and China are such hotbeds of capitalism now."

Neither are free market economies, especially Russia. Ask McDonalds corporation. In both countries, you can do what the government says and no more.

It should be a wakeup call that producers are leaving for China. The reason, minimal or no environmental regulations and the 90 hour work week. Go to China and work for a while. Tell me how great it is. We are losing production to China because of regulation.

My stepson has spent the past year in a small Chinese city of 1.2 million. He has your beliefs, weaslespit and rj. You'd like him. He has often told me of the advantages of the Chinese partnership with government and business. Well, now that he's been there a while with the pollution, the curfews, the government intrusion, and discrimination, he might have had enough. It ain't as cool as he thought.

Neither China nor Russia have free markets. The free market is slipping in the US. China just makes it easier to manufacture, thus cheaper. I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about adopting China as a model. You wouldn't like it.


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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 4:50:07 PM

"Must be why both Russia and China are such hotbeds of capitalism now."

Bingo.

"Far from being the opposite, black markets are one of the purest implementations of free market capitalism, being entirely based on supply and demand."

And Boom.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 4:32:22 PM

SoylentGrain - "What's to argue. Dictators and socialists find capitalism a threat and see a need to control it."

Must be why both Russia and China are such hotbeds of capitalism now.

"And you not been reading my posts. Black markets are the opposite of free market capitalism. Black markets are a result of free market oppression."

Far from being the opposite, black markets are one of the purest implementations of free market capitalism, being entirely based on supply and demand.

Or don't you understand what "free market capitalism" is?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 4:10:04 PM

"Believe what you want."

It seems as though most do who post here.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 4:07:49 PM

Believe what you want.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 3:49:20 PM

"Black markets are the opposite of free market capitalism."

Because you say-so?

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 11/19/2014 3:49:43 PM EST]
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 3:33:55 PM

"Have you not been reading rj's posts??? Examples have already been named, often times more than once... "

And you not been reading my posts. Black markets are the opposite of free market capitalism. Black markets are a result of free market oppression.

Try again.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 3:03:00 PM

"Name one."

Have you not been reading rj's posts??? Examples have already been named, often times more than once...
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 2:37:54 PM

"Unregulated capitalism has negative consequences just as bad as a dictatorship or pure socialism... "

Name one.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 2:24:23 PM

"What's to argue. Dictators and socialists find capitalism a threat and see a need to control it."

Unregulated capitalism has negative consequences just as bad as a dictatorship or pure socialism...
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 2:20:15 PM

"So you don't actually have a counter argument? "

What's to argue. Dictators and socialists find capitalism a threat and see a need to control it.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 1:05:26 PM

SoylentGrain - "Recently, I listened to an inter view with a person who met with Vladimir Putin several years ago. Putin shares your view."

So you don't actually have a counter argument?
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2014 9:51:18 AM

"Unregulated capitalism separates us into the very few very rich and the great mass of poor, ultimately leading us back into feudalism."

Recently, I listened to an inter view with a person who met with Vladimir Putin several years ago. Putin shares your view.
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SemiSteve
Champion Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 2:06:00 PM

I am reminded why I prefer not to converse with the disrespectful.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 1:59:14 PM

SoylentGrain - "The "You didn't build that" theory."

And yet another non sequitur.

"A pesky fact. Capitalism elevates everyone who participates into prosperity. Dictatorships and socialism create poverty."

More black-and-white thinking. Unregulated capitalism separates us into the very few very rich and the great mass of poor, ultimately leading us back into feudalism. Carefully regulated capitalism, OTOH, does benefit most of us, if it encourages more even-handed sharing of the fruits of one's labor.

"Einstein, black markets exist because of over regulation and the lack of a free market. It is the opposite of capitalism."

Yes, "black markets exist because of over regulation and the lack of a free market". But they are basic capitalism. They introduce unregulated free markets into situations where the market is otherwise too restricted.

"Enabled by corrupt Mexican government, unenforced US immigration laws, and over regulation of schedule II drugs."

Thus unregulated capitalism.

"China, the Soviet Union are good examples of brutal socialist governments. But, I don't think I made that claim."

You're not aware of what you post?
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SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 10:09:51 AM

" Business owners in the black market, without government oversight, are forced to become every bit as brutal as any dictators in order to protect their 'market share' (turf)."

Einstein, black markets exist because of over regulation and the lack of a free market. It is the opposite of capitalism.

"Simply consider the brutality of the Mexican drug cartels..."

Enabled by corrupt Mexican government, unenforced US immigration laws, and over regulation of schedule II drugs.

"And what is this baloney about socialists being brutal? It is more the nature of dictators than socialists. "

China, the Soviet Union are good examples of brutal socialist governments. But, I don't think I made that claim.

"Before deductions, credits, etc... Not a realistic claim - but sensational none-the-less. "

Think your statement through. Income without deductions is called revenue.


[Edited by: SoylentGrain at 11/17/2014 10:13:44 AM EST]
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SemiSteve
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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 9:42:21 AM

SG: "I find it highly unlikely that business owners have abused people more than dictators and socialists."

A rjh has pointed out, a market without regulation is pure capitalism. Business owners in the black market, without government oversight, are forced to become every bit as brutal as any dictators in order to protect their 'market share' (turf).

Simply consider the brutality of the Mexican drug cartels...

Who operate in a setting of pure capitalism with no government regulation.

And what is this baloney about socialists being brutal? It is more the nature of dictators than socialists.

Senator Bernie Sanders is openly socialist and also a peaceful respectful gentleman.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 8:53:31 AM

"Individuals making over $190,000 pay at least 1/3 as Federal tax (over $400,000, it's 39.6%. State income tax on income over $100,000 is easily over 10 to 12%. Affordable care act taxes are 3.8 percent surtax on investment income earned in households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 single). That's easily over 50%. includes a large portion of the people carrying the bulk of the tax burden in this country."

Before deductions, credits, etc... Not a realistic claim - but sensational none-the-less.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 8:49:38 AM

"Don't worry, unregulated capitalism does neither."

The "You didn't build that" theory.

"And yet another attempted diversion."

A pesky fact. Capitalism elevates everyone who participates into prosperity. Dictatorships and socialism create poverty.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 2:47:22 AM

SoylentGrain - "Wouldn't want to create too much profit and employment."

Don't worry, unregulated capitalism does neither.

What it does do is create a rich class, a small and struggling middle class, and a lot of peons.

"I find it highly unlikely that business owners have abused people more than dictators and socialists."

And yet another attempted diversion.



[Edited by: rjhenn at 11/17/2014 2:48:47 AM EST]
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naw
Champion Author Denver

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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 1:48:05 AM

Yes. Anyone that makes more then me
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streetrider
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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 1:20:25 AM



"Reality check - Capitalism has lifted 1 BILLION people out of poverty world wide. Before it, most people were serfs living hand to mouth on someone else's property."Only democracy can lift people out of poverty
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Cirdan
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Message Posted: Nov 17, 2014 1:00:47 AM

"I find it highly unlikely that business owners have abused people more than dictators and socialists."

You said a mouthful. Joe Stalin, the Castro's (more political prisoners per capita than any Western Hemisphere country), The Kim's (N Korea), Vietnames "reeducation camps," etc., etc., etc.

Reality check - Capitalism has lifted 1 BILLION people out of poverty world wide. Before it, most people were serfs living hand to mouth on someone else's property.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2014 9:00:23 PM

"The fact is, regulation keeps the excesses of capitalism in check, or is supposed to. "

Wouldn't want to create too much profit and employment.

"And history shows that unregulated capitalism results in major abuses."

I find it highly unlikely that business owners have abused people more than dictators and socialists.

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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2014 3:19:32 PM

SoylentGrain - "And they universally surface under dictatorships and in overregulated societies. Going back to your Syria example, saying capitalism encourages criminal behavior is like saying knives are responsible for beheadings."

None of which seems to have any relevance to anything that's been stated so far. So, yet another attempt to divert.

"The fact is regulation discourages capitalism (trade, profit,employment, wages, and ultimately tax revenue). The state and extent of business regulation in the US is indefensible. Complete industries have left the US because, they have been regulated out of existence. Those products and natural resources, we now import."

The fact is, regulation keeps the excesses of capitalism in check, or is supposed to. And history shows that unregulated capitalism results in major abuses. Over-regulation, however, has the effects you stated.

Which is why I favor a complete review of all federal regulations, to eliminate redundant, unnecessary and contradictory regulations. But it needs to be done with a scalpel, not the Republican chainsaw.
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SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2014 9:12:59 AM

"Because a black market economy is usually a criminal enterprise, it lacks government regulation, thus why it is called a "black" market economy. "

And they universally surface under dictatorships and in overregulated societies. Going back to your Syria example, saying capitalism encourages criminal behavior is like saying knives are responsible for beheadings.

The fact is regulation discourages capitalism (trade, profit,employment, wages, and ultimately tax revenue). The state and extent of business regulation in the US is indefensible. Complete industries have left the US because, they have been regulated out of existence. Those products and natural resources, we now import.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2014 2:30:50 AM

SoylentGrain - "Sounds like you are equating capitalism with criminal behavior."

And yet another attempt to distract and divert.

Funny, one would think that a black market economy would be your ideal.

No, I'm pointing out the reality of free market capitalism. You don't like government regulation, but that's the only thing that keeps a capitalist economy acting like a black market economy. Because a black market economy is usually a criminal enterprise, it lacks government regulation, thus why it is called a "black" market economy.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2014 10:18:38 AM

"Isn't that the ultimate in free market capitalism? No regulations, no controls outside of the market.

Nirvana for capitalists, if they survive."

Sounds like you are equating capitalism with criminal behavior.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2014 2:40:09 PM

SE3.5 - "Maybe he meant "black market capitalism". ;>)"

Isn't that the ultimate in free market capitalism? No regulations, no controls outside of the market.

Nirvana for capitalists, if they survive.

Of course, Hell for many others.
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SE3.5
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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2014 1:32:40 PM

"free market capitalism flourishes in anarchy"

Maybe he meant "black market capitalism". ;>)
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2014 1:29:46 PM

"How do you think it got to be the paradise it is?

And, of course, free market capitalism flourishes in anarchy, such as Syria, Somalia, etc."

This has got to be the number one whopper of all your delusions.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2014 12:41:29 PM

mudtoe - "If that's the case then it's time to get the police involved."

Except in the too frequent cases where the police actually work for "the rich", instead of the citizenry.

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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2014 12:40:23 PM

SoylentGrain - "Didn't realize Syria was a free market capitalist hotbed."

How do you think it got to be the paradise it is?

And, of course, free market capitalism flourishes in anarchy, such as Syria, Somalia, etc.

Unfortunately, only a minority of the general citizenry does.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 11/14/2014 12:42:52 PM EST]
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mudtoe
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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2014 1:06:25 AM

rjh: "I would agree with that, but, unfortunately, far too often "free will" has little to do with it. "


If that's the case then it's time to get the police involved.



mudtoe
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2014 12:33:34 AM

"Progressive tax rates are a direct result of the need to provide some balance to free market capitalism in order to maintain a functioning society, instead of something like, say, Syria."

Didn't realize Syria was a free market capitalist hotbed.
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Cirdan
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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2014 12:20:20 AM

"Marxism doesn't need "progressive tax rates", because no one's allowed to make that much."

"The advantage to socialism is it makes everybody equally miserable." - Winston Churchill
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2014 6:51:36 PM

SoylentGrain - "A progressive tax schedule with 50% tax rates are."

Again, not Marxism. Marxism doesn't need "progressive tax rates", because no one's allowed to make that much.

Progressive tax rates are a direct result of the need to provide some balance to free market capitalism in order to maintain a functioning society, instead of something like, say, Syria.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2014 4:21:53 PM

"Who pays 50% tax rates in the US?"

Individuals making over $190,000 pay at least 1/3 as Federal tax (over $400,000, it's 39.6%. State income tax on income over $100,000 is easily over 10 to 12%. Affordable care act taxes are 3.8 percent surtax on investment income earned in households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 single). That's easily over 50%. includes a large portion of the people carrying the bulk of the tax burden in this country.

[Edited by: SoylentGrain at 11/13/2014 4:24:07 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2014 2:29:36 PM

"A progressive tax schedule with 50% tax rates are."

Who pays 50% tax rates in the US?
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2014 1:39:28 PM

"It's also not "Marxism". "

A progressive tax schedule with 50% tax rates are.

And yes, the effective rates are over 50% when federal income tax, affordable care act taxes, capital gains, and state taxes add up.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2014 12:08:40 PM

SoylentGrain - "I'm sure the IRS folks are nicer, now."

Perhaps nicer, but not much different in attitude otherwise,

"Paying your taxes is not "sharing"."

It's also not "Marxism".
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2014 11:57:22 AM

"Was that official, or private? "

It was social. And that was the last time that person stepped foot into my house, ever again. It was obvious her opinion was people are guilty until proven innocent. But, that was in the early 1980's. I'm sure the IRS folks are nicer, now.

"And I think you're confusing Revenue Agent with Revenue Officer. Two different job titles and jobs."

My point is the IRS has an armed enforcement division. It makes no difference if you are shot with a 9mm bullet from a pistol, semi auto rifle, or full auto rifle, or 00 buckshot from a shotgun. The result is the same. Paying your taxes is not "sharing".
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2014 11:37:39 AM

mudtoe - "Call it what you want, as the motivations make no difference as long as the trade is a result of both parties agreement to it of their own free will."

I would agree with that, but, unfortunately, far too often "free will" has little to do with it.
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rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2014 11:36:24 AM

SoylentGrain - "I specifically said IRS REVENUE agents. Some time back, we had an IRS revenue agent and her husband over for dinner. She was armed."

Was that official, or private? There's nothing to prevent a government employee from having a CHL.

And I think you're confusing Revenue Agent with Revenue Officer. Two different job titles and jobs.

"Just responding to your term "sharing". Do you talk in circles, like this, in real life?"

And you went straight from "Marxism" to the IRS and your still unsupported "fully automatic weapons". Who's the one talking in circles?
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mudtoe
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2014 12:40:27 AM

rjh: "Which, basically, is fueled by greed."


Call it what you want, as the motivations make no difference as long as the trade is a result of both parties agreement to it of their own free will. That's one of the rights of ownership. You are free to trade what you own to anyone else you wish, regardless of your motivation (or theirs), in return for something else that they own. In fact, your right of ownership entitles you to give something away if that's what you choose to do of your own free will (choice being the operative word).


mudtoe



[Edited by: mudtoe at 11/13/2014 12:43:31 AM EST]
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