Not Logged In Log In   Sign Up   Points Leaders
Follow Us    11:43 PM

Message Forum - Read Message

Category: Daily News Article Discussions > Topics Add to favorite topics  
Author Topic: Goodbye Electricity If you have become accustomed to cheap electricity, don’t count on it to be arou Back to Topics
teenitup

Champion Author
Houston

Posts:4,985
Points:893,465
Joined:Sep 2012
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 12:02:03 AM

Much of the western world assumes electric power to be available 24/7 with an unlimited supply to boot. Indeed, “Hydro” (still) is and was a readily available energy source for every household, office and industry in most of the developed nations.

Alternative Power Generation

So-called “alternative” (electric) energy sources primarily are from wind and solar power installations. Worldwide, their actual (and usable) production is in the order of one percent only. That is with some 100,000 “megawatt” wind turbines in the world and photovoltaic systems on nearly every roof in Germany. The problem is that none of them produce any power when “the wind doesn’t blow” or the sun “doesn’t shine.” Then, all people rely on the local “hydro” system to generate the power they like to consume. As note
Visit Canada Free Press for full article
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
Profile Pic
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

Posts:29,063
Points:2,877,495
Joined:Aug 2005
Message Posted: May 2, 2014 6:10:27 PM

E-Squirrel - "But you already know that. I was merely pointing out that your phrase: 'there's no shortage of rooftops' denies a real issue in dense environments."

Even in those dense environments, there are nearby environments with plenty of roof space. So there would still be the advantage of not having to upgrade the distribution network to transport electricity hundreds of miles.
Profile Pic
E-Squirrel
Champion Author Orange County

Posts:3,444
Points:989,850
Joined:Feb 2005
Message Posted: May 2, 2014 5:45:36 PM

rjhenn asks:

"So where's the problem?"

Well, you know the issue. Multi-story buildings increase the demand for electricity without an comensurate increase in roof area. In denser city environments, the proportion of multi-story buildings is exacerbated. I am merely pointing out that photo-voltaic installations need to maximize area as the power density per square foot of sunlight is very low.

But you already know that. I was merely pointing out that your phrase: 'there's no shortage of rooftops' denies a real issue in dense environments. I do not mean to contradict your other statements.


[Edited by: E-Squirrel at 5/2/2014 5:46:19 PM EST]
Profile Pic
mrbee
Champion Author Little Rock

Posts:6,644
Points:3,151,780
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: May 1, 2014 6:55:58 PM

Oh my, whatever will we do.
Profile Pic
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

Posts:29,063
Points:2,877,495
Joined:Aug 2005
Message Posted: May 1, 2014 6:52:13 PM

E-Squirrel - "Spoken by someone who doesn't seem to have much experience with multi-story buildings."

Warehouses, stores and homes would provide a lot of rooftop space. Most areas have apartment and office buildings that are no more than three or four stories.

So where's the problem?

The big advantage would be removing the need for expensive upgrades to the distribution network.

BTW, having lived in or around LA, Detroit, Dallas and Chicago, not to mention Berlin, Munich and London, I've been in plenty of multi-story buildings.

[Edited by: rjhenn at 5/1/2014 6:54:52 PM EST]
Profile Pic
SVmike
Champion Author California

Posts:1,730
Points:339,540
Joined:Dec 2009
Message Posted: May 1, 2014 5:55:51 PM

Solar is not expensive now.
$25K for a 5 KW system will generate 8500 kwh per year for 25 yr with warranty. That is 11 cents per kwh (without any rebates). The system will likely last 10-15 years more than that. You will need to replace the inverts once or twice. But over 40 years that is 7 cents/kwh.

Profile Pic
91Hilux
Champion Author New Haven

Posts:3,318
Points:1,290,260
Joined:Aug 2007
Message Posted: May 1, 2014 4:07:09 PM

Energy is like a diet: it needs to be balanced or you'll suffer. Solar and wind are great, but they need to be balanced with fossil, hydro, geothermal, and nuclear power sources because with the diversity of living conditions on the planet no "one source" will work everywhere.

Would you want to install a solar grid near the Arctic Circle? No.
Is the central Sahara a good place for a Hydrio-electric Dam? No.

[Edited by: 91Hilux at 5/1/2014 4:07:39 PM EST]
Profile Pic
E-Squirrel
Champion Author Orange County

Posts:3,444
Points:989,850
Joined:Feb 2005
Message Posted: May 1, 2014 3:56:36 PM

rjhenn enthuses:

"If we used enough rooftops, and there's no shortage of rooftops, it could be more than just a very small percentage."

Spoken by someone who doesn't seem to have much experience with multi-story buildings.

;-)
Profile Pic
teenitup
Champion Author Houston

Posts:4,985
Points:893,465
Joined:Sep 2012
Message Posted: Mar 17, 2014 9:25:59 AM

That's true drpeppertx, causing quite the stir among liberal elitists!
Profile Pic
honda0105
Champion Author Tallahassee

Posts:23,390
Points:2,296,690
Joined:Nov 2008
Message Posted: Mar 17, 2014 5:56:25 AM

as for storage: another case where energy storage comes in handy is during weather situations such as the power outages this winter or during hurricane season.
Profile Pic
Bonanza
Champion Author Boston

Posts:15,488
Points:3,237,380
Joined:Jun 2004
Message Posted: Mar 17, 2014 5:07:54 AM

The sky is falling
Profile Pic
drpepperTX
Champion Author Texas

Posts:13,775
Points:1,434,645
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 16, 2014 7:19:50 PM

Yes, but liberals abhor Walmart, so that doesn't count!
Profile Pic
honda0105
Champion Author Tallahassee

Posts:23,390
Points:2,296,690
Joined:Nov 2008
Message Posted: Mar 16, 2014 8:07:37 AM

rjh: actually, some Wallyworld stores have already been able to reach near self-sufficiency for their electricity needs.
Profile Pic
deant99
Champion Author Ontario

Posts:154,135
Points:430,990
Joined:Sep 2011
Message Posted: Mar 15, 2014 12:16:48 PM

We may be entering the world of battery backup at least for lighting. Look at iPhone/Android technology
Profile Pic
teenitup
Champion Author Houston

Posts:4,985
Points:893,465
Joined:Sep 2012
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2014 1:02:37 PM

In reality jrsva you point out exactly why my assertion is likely true, storage is a huge problem that there really is no economically viable answer for, maybe down the line but certainly not current. And the other big problem is affordability with out direct government handouts, especially at the residential level. Then you run into the vast majority of homeowners associations that do not allow rooftop solar. These associations have a lot of power at that level.

Your points on wind are correct, and I agree with the unsightliness! Much of the once beautiful western part of Texas is covered with thousands of those behemoths and further scenery is being destroyed by massive power lines and support structures to bring that electricity hundred of miles to the population centers.
Profile Pic
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

Posts:29,063
Points:2,877,495
Joined:Aug 2005
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2014 12:52:00 PM

jrsva - Yes, storage is critical.
Profile Pic
jrsva
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:12,976
Points:2,300,050
Joined:Jan 2006
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2014 1:22:47 AM

Rjhenn, you are right to a degree about wind; I was thinking primarily of industrial-scale turbines. Small turbines avoid many of the issues associated with industrial-scale turbines but they do not produce much power either. Unless you put your turbine on a tall tower you miss most of the wind, and the wind near the ground is more variable and gusty than winds aloft. Tall towers are unsightly, expensive and bring other problems into play. Contrary to Teen’s assertion, roof-top solar (with storage) can produce a large percentage of our power needs, wind not so much.

Profile Pic
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

Posts:29,063
Points:2,877,495
Joined:Aug 2005
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 6:06:28 PM

There are plenty of rooftops on businesses. Just putting generators, either solar or wind or both, on warehouse roofs would provide a lot of capacity.

Many businesses, especially big-box stores like Wal-Mart with lots of roof space, could approach self-sufficiency.
Profile Pic
teenitup
Champion Author Houston

Posts:4,985
Points:893,465
Joined:Sep 2012
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 5:33:40 PM

Yes, that's a big if though, and might increase the percentage by 100%. Then we'd be up to 2% of our energy needs!

The other big problem is that folks tend to picture energy requirements only for their homes. They don't take into consideration the huge needs of the industrial, business and even retail sectors.
Profile Pic
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

Posts:29,063
Points:2,877,495
Joined:Aug 2005
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:40:43 PM

teenitup - "The draw backs to Big Wind and Big Solar you mention are very true, small localized generation by those two sources are the only workable scenarios and this limited to a very small percentage of our energy needs."

If we used enough rooftops, and there's no shortage of rooftops, it could be more than just a very small percentage.
Profile Pic
teenitup
Champion Author Houston

Posts:4,985
Points:893,465
Joined:Sep 2012
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 11:40:56 AM

Rjhenn, well reasoned post!

The draw backs to Big Wind and Big Solar you mention are very true, small localized generation by those two sources are the only workable scenarios and this limited to a very small percentage of our energy needs.
Profile Pic
oldmack
Champion Author Riverside

Posts:2,311
Points:226,450
Joined:Jan 2013
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 3:19:45 AM

ok
Profile Pic
tomok
Champion Author Portland

Posts:44,893
Points:3,032,335
Joined:Aug 2006
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 3:13:33 AM

If you have become accustomed to cheap electricity, don’t count on it to be around much longer. **Cheap electricity has Not been around for a very long time. Whether it is Hydro, Solar, Wind, Thermal, Tidal, Or Nuclear there's always a price to pay for it.
Most of the world relys on coal, oil, natural gas, hydro, and nuclear for electrical generation.
**The cost of electricity will go up but your paycheck will not. This Vision as set forth by Oblammer and the current condition of the US economy.
Drive vehicles with high mpg, are very safe, reliable, have a ‘reasonable’ cost and a good ‘value’ for the money.
The price of fuel at the pump is too high!
Profile Pic
NedW
Champion Author Indianapolis

Posts:8,036
Points:1,706,455
Joined:Mar 2008
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 2:30:30 AM

Thank you for submitting this article, teenitup.
Profile Pic
PAA64
Champion Author Cincinnati

Posts:1,186
Points:683,285
Joined:Jan 2013
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 1:44:08 AM

interesting
Profile Pic
bston
Champion Author Oklahoma City

Posts:4,645
Points:1,327,150
Joined:Mar 2011
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 1:19:39 AM

Make me edgy to think how expensive it could become.
Profile Pic
rjhenn
Champion Author Des Moines

Posts:29,063
Points:2,877,495
Joined:Aug 2005
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 1:05:32 AM

jrsva - "Solar power is not cheap but the costs are coming down. It is certainly better in some areas than in others but it works everywhere. With a storage system it becomes available 24-7. Wind not so much; it has too many problems for widespread use."

With a storage system, wind would work just about as well as solar. The main problem with wind is also a problem with solar: the emphasis on utility-scale projects. Those tend to not only be impractical in terms of cost (both in money and resources, like land), but also require major, and expensive, upgrades to the distribution network.

Much smaller distributed systems would work much better. Put solar cells and small (say, no larger than 6 feet in diameter) wind turbines on every suitable rooftop. Then more electricity would be produced near where it's used, and the load on the distribution network would be much less.
Profile Pic
teafortwo
Champion Author Washington

Posts:27,651
Points:2,066,860
Joined:Feb 2009
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:31:56 AM


Well said jrsva ;0}
Profile Pic
bolobill
Champion Author Michigan

Posts:18,853
Points:3,856,025
Joined:Mar 2004
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:31:28 AM

ok
Profile Pic
jrsva
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:12,976
Points:2,300,050
Joined:Jan 2006
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:30:40 AM

“That is why regulators have shut down nuclear plants which do run 24/7. No emissions, don't harm birds they just run.”

Wake up, Borsht, and breathe the radiation. I seem to recall a tiny bit of “emission” from Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima, and no one has figured out how to sequester the waste products from the environment for the next 10,000 years or so. At present, tons of lethal material is sitting around in barrels and tanks awaiting proper “disposal,” all the while subject to leakage, terrorist attack, etc.

Profile Pic
jrsva
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:12,976
Points:2,300,050
Joined:Jan 2006
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:18:21 AM

“This is a direct result of Obama's war on coal and oil.”

It is good thing someone is taking on the coal industry. Coal mining is turning vast stretches of the Appalachians into a moonscape. Miners are killed and sickened in underground mines. Mining and burning coal produces huge air and water pollution problems. Collapse of mine-tailings ponds have flash-flooded valleys, washing away homes and families. We need to continue with some use of coal, despite its problems, but at a much reduced rate.

Solar power is not cheap but the costs are coming down. It is certainly better in some areas than in others but it works everywhere. With a storage system it becomes available 24-7. Wind not so much; it has too many problems for widespread use.

Profile Pic
Garyallman
Champion Author Honolulu

Posts:3,990
Points:77,140
Joined:Apr 2012
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:16:22 AM

Thanks Obama for giving spoiled Americans who think they are entitled to an easy work free life a wake up call and reality check. Please make life harder for these lazy Aarogant loosers and make them work for their success like the rest of us.
Profile Pic
kcboy
Champion Author Utah

Posts:6,032
Points:2,010,600
Joined:Jun 2005
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:09:05 AM

Ok
Profile Pic
borsht
Champion Author Oakland

Posts:3,571
Points:865,190
Joined:Aug 2012
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:07:17 AM

Most regulators are not smarter than a 5th grader. That is why regulators have shut down nuclear plants which do run 24/7. No emissions, don't harm birds they just run. Aircraft carriers and submarines run 24/7. The navy got rid of wind powered ships a long time ago!!!
Profile Pic
Tsunamiron
Champion Author Jacksonville

Posts:4,176
Points:1,234,200
Joined:Mar 2011
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:06:11 AM

I will install solar panels on my next house.
Profile Pic
dallfo
Champion Author Denver

Posts:2,586
Points:509,220
Joined:Oct 2013
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:05:17 AM

This is a direct result of Obama's war on coal and oil.

Thank you, Obama.
Thanks for nothing.
Profile Pic
PoohMcGoo
Champion Author Alabama

Posts:3,792
Points:1,369,260
Joined:Dec 2010
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:04:30 AM

Ok
Profile Pic
repeater1
Champion Author Topeka

Posts:11,138
Points:3,051,160
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:04:04 AM

Everything else is going up in price so not surprising electricity will also rise.
Profile Pic
Methodist
Champion Author Indiana

Posts:3,758
Points:839,755
Joined:Mar 2008
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:03:57 AM

k
Profile Pic
442Nut
Champion Author Massachusetts

Posts:2,759
Points:754,075
Joined:Oct 2012
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:03:08 AM

unbelievable
Profile Pic
Star Cruise
Champion Author Toronto

Posts:1,312
Points:490,105
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2014 12:02:15 AM

Electricity = Ozone Why do the Eco wait until there is a problem before reacting instead of being PRO active and not use too much of any ONE source of energy?
Profile Pic
Aviator_Rob
Champion Author New York

Posts:7,094
Points:1,084,770
Joined:Mar 2012
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:57:44 PM

"Well Austin is going nuts over this... renewable energy stuff. Citizens are getting screwed as a result. Time for this pie in the sky or Little Dutch boy with their finger in the dike mentality to GO AWAY! "

And I suppose you're fine with all of the fracking going on in your backyard then?
Profile Pic
momof5MN
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:6,821
Points:363,150
Joined:Feb 2011
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:57:36 PM

War on coal.
Profile Pic
Aviator_Rob
Champion Author New York

Posts:7,094
Points:1,084,770
Joined:Mar 2012
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:56:23 PM

"And the eco terrorists want us all to drive golf carts. Where would all that newly needed electricity come from? Stupid short sighted eco terrorists. "

Were you not paying attention? It takes hardly any power at all to charge an electric vehicle and certainly a lot less than the power required to pull oil out of the ground, refine it into gasoline or diesel, get it to the gas station, and into your vehicle.
Profile Pic
clermont40miles
Champion Author Cincinnati

Posts:14,251
Points:2,454,505
Joined:Apr 2008
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:56:04 PM

War on coal by BHO & Co.
Profile Pic
JagXKR
Champion Author British Columbia

Posts:5,966
Points:1,773,760
Joined:Dec 2009
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:54:10 PM

And the eco terrorists want us all to drive golf carts. Where would all that newly needed electricity come from? Stupid short sighted eco terrorists.
Profile Pic
OKRifle
Champion Author Oklahoma City

Posts:13,696
Points:2,482,275
Joined:Oct 2007
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:53:51 PM

I am fed up with bad news!
Profile Pic
5954smoore
Champion Author Pennsylvania

Posts:2,076
Points:1,571,905
Joined:Jun 2008
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:52:44 PM

Let the market needs drive the source.
Profile Pic
STLCARDSFOREVER
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:1,738
Points:464,535
Joined:Jan 2014
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:47:06 PM

WHAT A BUZZ KILL!
Profile Pic
regout
Champion Author Quebec

Posts:5,795
Points:1,513,905
Joined:May 2010
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:45:52 PM

Increase of 4.3% in here Quebec for april fool.
Profile Pic
Jeannemarie
Champion Author Las Vegas

Posts:32,623
Points:2,531,590
Joined:Aug 2005
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:44:53 PM

I doubt if it is the President's fault. The big companies just figure on getting all they can before the new revolution of the lower classes begins and tosses them out.
Profile Pic
bvrbill
Champion Author Eugene

Posts:7,571
Points:1,204,960
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2014 11:44:28 PM

We need to use all of our energy resources.
Post a reply Back to Topics