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Author Topic: Intermittent Nature of Green Power Is Challenge for Utilities Back to Topics
kx250

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Michigan

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Message Posted: Aug 18, 2013 12:51:16 AM

The 21 turbines at the Kingdom Community Wind farm in Vermont soar above Lowell Mountain, a testament in steel and fiberglass to the state’s growing use of green energy.

Energy produced by wind, for example, is intermittent, its generating capacity is harder to predict than conventional power’s. And a lack of widely available, cost-effective ways to store electricity generated by wind only compounds the complex current marketplace.

Regional grid managers, who must match demand and supply instantaneously, call for a reduction in wind power when more energy is produced than the system can safely transport.

It is more difficult to properly synchronize wind’s fluctuating power flow with a system built for the steadier electric stream that fossil fuel plants tend to produce.
Visit New York Times for full article
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honda0105
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2013 6:09:07 AM

thanks for posting kx
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honda0105
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Aug 23, 2013 5:53:56 AM

we could still use lots more renewable energy than we are - esp. if people would learn to conserve at least some.
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tillandsia
Veteran Author Gainesville

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Message Posted: Aug 22, 2013 10:48:52 AM

good information
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Alaydown
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Aug 20, 2013 12:35:08 AM

We will always need non-renewable energy production because solar and wind do not provide power all of the time.
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NedW
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Aug 20, 2013 12:25:22 AM

Thank you for submitting this article, kx250.
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52MPG
Champion Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Aug 20, 2013 12:22:29 AM

The problem with wind power is the calm.
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drobbbb
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 11:13:24 PM

they will learn to manage it better
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MAC48
Champion Author Dallas

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 7:45:23 PM

The answer is quite simple but it does require additional capital investment and the burden of paying for additional 3rd party operting cost by the wind farm owners.

1st - All wind power generating farms should be required to build a transmission line capable of handling the maximum wind farm output possible from the wind farm substation to the nearest high voltage transmission line.

2nd - If the maximum wind farm output possible from the wind farm will require the upgrading of the existing high voltage transmission line to which it will connect, the cost of upgrading should be borne by the wind farm developer/owner.

3rd - Any normal 24/7 power plant operating cost should be borne by the wind farm operator/owner if the 24/7 power plant is require to be ready to generate but is "idling" on standby duty as back up to provide "on demand" power in the event the wind farm cannot provide the power it is designed for during each hour that the wind farm has agreed to be producing power.

Bear in mind that the old regulated utility model had to bear the same cost enumerated above so that a constant reliable stream of electric power was available to its customers. In Texas, the old regional electric power producing utilities were required to keep a 15% reserve ready to provide power on demand so that any failure at a power plant unit that was already running at the normal maximum production level could be replaced almost instantly if needed.
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vandamme
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:20:18 PM

"....pretty worthless without a way to deliver it to the users"

How about fifty feet of cable from your solar array into the house?
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toolman3md
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 8:19:38 AM

Old news.
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rocky23hy
Champion Author Massachusetts

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 6:54:21 AM

The wind industrialists has engaged in years of lying, deception, misdirection by tricksters, charlatans, and downright liars seeking wealth from government and taxpayers. Soon to be sucking us dry on our electric bill.

Wind does not collect "free energy", as those industries are heavily subsidized by the Federal taxpayer, and utilize existing infrastructures developed by the conventional power utilities to get their product to the consumers.

After more than 20 years, wind power is still not cost-effective without the crutch of government subsidies, and solar power is even worse.
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2b0b
Champion Author Tulsa

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 2:24:00 AM

It just means every wind farm should include a dedicated feeder line to the grid. The Lowell Mountain people should visit the wind farms in Mohave, CA to see how it should be done.
All of the gas and coal fired plants hook to the higher voltage grid, not the local line system.
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SparkieMi
Champion Author Kalamazoo

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 1:21:33 AM

Really... Back to the drawing board...
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RogerB
Champion Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 1:06:23 AM

- Very Interesting . . . .








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ron98146
Champion Author Seattle

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:55:00 AM

they do not know how to control the usage but Europe has been using it for years. check with them.
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ShadowACE
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:54:27 AM

HedTurnr said: "The same utilities that have been ripping us off for years should NOT be allowed to run this form of energy too!"

The problem is that the infrastructure needed to deliver energy to the consumers (that would be US - all of us) is massive, complex, expensive, and most of it is owned and managed by "those same utilities that have been ripping us off for years." They're not going to let other utilities use their delivery systems because "it's the right thing to do." They might sell some of that delivery capacity to other producers but they're certainly not going to give it away. Whatever form of energy you're considering - wind, solar, hydro, tidal, geothermal, etc, etc - it's pretty worthless without a way to deliver it to the users, and that's not going to be easily fixed.
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babyjudy
Champion Author Tucson

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:52:31 AM

And yet it is still being pushed on us.
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wang91554
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:52:26 AM

they want it when they want it, is what they want
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Burger09
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:51:31 AM

Very interesting...
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69Bonne
Champion Author Gary

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:50:14 AM

Not a simple scenario.
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gman32MI
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:48:52 AM

ok
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ruca2012
Champion Author San Diego

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:47:28 AM

they should of built it out to sea!
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10k
Champion Author North Carolina

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:47:09 AM

why does "green" make one see "red"..

winks44: agreed !!..
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TBONE3
Champion Author Pennsylvania

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:44:58 AM

That source needs more work to improve reliability!!
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HedTurnr
All-Star Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:43:28 AM

The same utilities that have been ripping us off for years should NOT be allowed to run this form of energy too!
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pv2004
Champion Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:42:01 AM

ok
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bolobill
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:41:00 AM

ok
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Aviator_Rob
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:40:25 AM

"Get heavier power lines and problem solved. Always easy to say but this is very expensive. Are the wind producers going to pay for this? Infrastructure must be worthwhile - a positive ROI - or it is not feasible."

Beefing up our transmission infrastructure will go a long way towards making our electricity grid more reliable and not as prone to single-point failures like the one in 2003 that plunged the entire Northeast into darkness. The utilities have been getting by far too long on the cheap, with their fingers crossed, hoping another huge blackout doesn't happen.

If you want to lower your electric bills, learn how to use your electricity more efficiently and quit wasting so much of it.

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us4usa
Champion Author Missouri

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:38:27 AM

Used EV batteries to store the energy for home owners???
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mrbee
Champion Author Little Rock

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:37:59 AM

Challenging.
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MitchelSdReview
Champion Author South Dakota

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:35:19 AM

Ok
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MitchelSdReview
Champion Author South Dakota

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:34:57 AM

Ok
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Aviator_Rob
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:34:15 AM

"Liberal newspaper spreading propaganda. NYT is about on the same par as Zero in the White House, Eric Holder, Janet Napolitano, Kathleen Sibelius, and any talking heads from the IRS when it comes to veracity. It's all agenda driven."

Riiiight! Meanwhile, Fox News is "fair and balanced"?

"Hello Pot. Have you met Kettle?"
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PetroScopper
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:34:04 AM

There is still much work to be done where clean energy is concerned.
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Aviator_Rob
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:32:27 AM

@jkpsr said, "Generate hydrogen with the excess."

That's actually not a bad idea. Another one would be to use wind to pump water upstream and then use that water as a source of hydropwer when the wind isn't blowing.

Another proposal is to use depleted natural gas fields as a giant storage space for pressurized air. If the rock can hold natural gas for millions of years, it can be pressurized using pumps powered by wind and then use that air pressure to spin turbines when the wind isn't blowing.

These problems can be solved. There's no need for so many people to be so negative.
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chuckl95453
Champion Author California

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:31:56 AM

agree with winks44
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Matt G
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:31:06 AM

Ok
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KrsnaDragon
Champion Author Montreal

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:29:13 AM

Far from foolproof just yet.
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pa79th
Champion Author Pennsylvania

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:29:06 AM

Liberal newspaper spreading propaganda. NYT is about on the same par as Zero in the White House, Eric Holder, Janet Napolitano, Kathleen Sibelius, and any talking heads from the IRS when it comes to veracity. It's all agenda driven.
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Aviator_Rob
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:26:02 AM

The electric utilities need to get off their collective butts and build up the required electricity transmission infrastructure. That's why they're there in the first place.

This 19th Century dumb transmission grid isn't gonna work in the 21st Century. The grid needs to be more responsive to fluctuations in generating capacity. When there's a drop in wind generated capapcity, natural gas powerplants can step in and throttle up. Those same plants are able to throttle down quickly when the wind picks up again.

This is not a problem without a solution.
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wingryder92
Champion Author British Columbia

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:25:05 AM

More hydro is the only sure fire way to go.
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winks44
Champion Author Georgia

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:23:25 AM

They need to put them in Washington where there is plenty of hot air and wind.
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obimerrill
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:22:59 AM

Hydro is the only predictable green energy source
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ThunderBird89
Champion Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:19:57 AM

that's why it should not be a primary source of electric power. It is not reliable. Is it cost competitive without government subsidies?????
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jrsva
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:17:58 AM


That’s wind power for you, light and variable, just one reason why wind is such a marginal source of electricity. Every MW of installed wind capacity must have a MW of steady, reliable generation up and running as a backup. Wind power is a cool idea but it is just not practical.
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granitestater
Champion Author New Hampshire

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:17:36 AM

Intermittent means on and off. Wind power varies constantly. Solar power only works when the sun is out. Tidal power only generates near the shore. "Green" power is just not reliable enough for mass consumption.
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crreed1
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:15:56 AM

old news
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P_I_STONE
Champion Author Wisconsin

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:15:42 AM

Green is good
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red_green17
Champion Author Ottawa

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:13:13 AM

Thats all and great - wait for your electricity bills to shoot up because they need to "upgrade lines" or "maintain infrastructure". Check out Ontario's electricity rates for your wake up call - its coming to your state soon enough
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Tigercat88
Champion Author North Carolina

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2013 12:13:02 AM

Green is not what it is cracked up to be.
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