Not Logged In Log In   Sign Up   Points Leaders
Follow Us    7:15 AM

Message Forum - Read Message

Category: Daily News Article Discussions > Topics Add to favorite topics  
Author Topic: Wind and Solar Power Paired With Storage Could Power Grid 99.9 Percent of the Time Back to Topics
aservant

Champion Author
California

Posts:16,562
Points:1,938,940
Joined:Nov 2008
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:17:13 AM

Renewable energy could fully power a large electric grid 99.9 percent of the time by 2030 at costs comparable to today's electricity expenses, according to new research by the University of Delaware and Delaware Technical Community College.

A well-designed combination of wind power, solar power and storage in batteries and fuel cells would nearly always exceed electricity demands while keeping costs low, the scientists found.

"These results break the conventional wisdom that renewable energy is too unreliable and expensive," said co-author Willett Kempton, professor in the School of Marine Science and Policy in UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment. "The key is to get the right combination of electricity sources and storage -- which we did by an exhaustive search -- and to
Visit Science Daily for full article
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
Profile Pic
LetemEatCake
Champion Author Oklahoma City

Posts:5,705
Points:1,360,915
Joined:Mar 2008
Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 10:54:01 PM


I agree, let's not say how it won't work.....let's just get it done!
Profile Pic
WanderDan
All-Star Author Dayton

Posts:670
Points:398,035
Joined:Nov 2012
Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 1:20:18 PM

thanks PDQBlues... we have to hope that maybe 10% of the talks on here are productive - the rest are people NEEDING to whine cry and complain about politics. renewable energy sources should be moving forward faster for home market. It is obvious the challenges for vehicles but we have the technology at this moment for home use. there are so many ways to conserve that will save us money at the pump. These actions COULD also reduce our need for foreign oil greatly which would help us stop funding those that consider us the enemy. Simple changes like tank less water heaters could save BILLIONS in energy use and requirements. Imagine what solar panels and a battery bank the size of a fridge could do for your home energy bill. All in conjunction with current systems - not replacing but augmenting.

[Edited by: WanderDan at 12/12/2012 1:24:23 PM EST]
Profile Pic
jrs4125
Champion Author Indiana

Posts:4,837
Points:1,191,145
Joined:Sep 2011
Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 8:11:41 AM

Lets make it happen.
Profile Pic
MAC48
Champion Author Dallas

Posts:3,410
Points:1,321,770
Joined:Dec 2006
Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 4:36:47 AM

Beware of any entity or professional whose opinions or studies just may be designed to keep research funding flowing in their direction. While the ability to store power in massive quantities is theoretically possible, it is neither practical nor cost justified as present. Will new technology advance to the point where large scale storage of electricity is both practical and cost justified, that is possible but it will not happen in our lifetimes nor will it happen in the lifetimes of our children or grand children.

agrico -- I grew up in West Texas and spent 50 years there and the wind does not blow all the time nor does it blow within the speed range required for wind turbine power generation when you and I can actually feel the wind passing us by.
Profile Pic
agrico
Champion Author New Orleans

Posts:1,676
Points:1,039,835
Joined:Dec 2008
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:42:23 PM

wind blows all the time in West Texas
Profile Pic
LetemEatCake
Champion Author Oklahoma City

Posts:5,705
Points:1,360,915
Joined:Mar 2008
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:38:59 PM


Hmmm...suppose that Pop from TX likes to glow in the dark?
Profile Pic
sillywagon
Champion Author New York

Posts:19,603
Points:2,054,670
Joined:Oct 2008
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:42:54 PM

Eighteen years isn't too far in the future. We will see if this comes true.
Profile Pic
drpepperTX
Champion Author Texas

Posts:13,434
Points:1,363,170
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 6:36:41 PM

LOL, joeski1 says "A nuke plant and its waste by product is the worst thing mankind has ever done up to horizontal fracking."
=====================
WOW! Holocausts rank below hydraulic fracturing? Just wow!
Profile Pic
qwerty17
Champion Author New Jersey

Posts:5,832
Points:1,704,570
Joined:Oct 2009
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:37:43 PM

time for giant batteries.
Profile Pic
PDQBlues
Champion Author San Diego

Posts:9,698
Points:2,058,725
Joined:Jan 2009
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 1:06:19 PM


Excellent points, WanderDan. It would be honest for these naysayers to understand that as any new technology becomes more popular, production costs go down very heavily. So in a few years, solar power could be cheaper to produce then from oil.
Profile Pic
WanderDan
All-Star Author Dayton

Posts:670
Points:398,035
Joined:Nov 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:26:01 PM

throw in the "it will cost too much" frenzy of those listening to some politicians and the point they fail to realize is... just imagine how much job growth and wealth could be created by a true effort for us as a nation. Imagine 5 years from now not having an energy bill?

[Edited by: WanderDan at 12/11/2012 12:27:19 PM EST]
Profile Pic
WanderDan
All-Star Author Dayton

Posts:670
Points:398,035
Joined:Nov 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:17:52 PM

sadly tho it must be realized that many people are like the people posting here and AFRAID of costs. They would much rather spend far more money on the fossil fuels because it is a smaller everyday payment instead of a bigger up front payment then cost drop every day and over time you save COUNTLESS dollars. Plus they just want to ignore the environment impacts.
Profile Pic
nsdp
Champion Author San Antonio

Posts:1,118
Points:77,285
Joined:Jun 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:14:00 PM

Good post Orphan carguy. I will add that Phillips Petrochemicals developed salt cavern storage that can store up to 100gwh(100 million kwh) per cavern for up to two years. Waste product from using hydrogen in a Brayton cycle plant is 100% super pure water made from brackish water. Solves two problems at once.



[Edited by: nsdp at 12/11/2012 12:16:11 PM EST]
Profile Pic
WanderDan
All-Star Author Dayton

Posts:670
Points:398,035
Joined:Nov 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:10:28 PM

orphancarguyPE -- great info - hopefully we will all get past the silly politics of this issue and move forward. throw in conservation and self awareness and we would all be able to cut so much usage with no impact. Someone also mentioned nuclear and on that front some interesting research is being done into traveling wave reactors - which COULD be able to use up what is now considered waste material. It could be key in the gaps of solar and wind technology.
Profile Pic
orphancarguyPE
Champion Author PEI

Posts:6,306
Points:1,319,860
Joined:Jan 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 11:23:59 AM

For those who haven't been keeping up, some solar is very cost effective right now especially when used for heating air and hot water. My solar hot water and solar air heater panels cost me $11,000+ to install, cost less than $10 a year to run for both systems, and save me about $4000 a year in heating oil not used to heat hot water and heating radiators, and a large -amount of electricity to run the oilfired boiler and circulation pumps. So, Its long paid off and now is saving me an actual $4000 a year.

Where it is more expensive is using wind and solar PV to generate electricity. Even there, the cost has plummeted. Between doing an energy audit and changing my electricity usage (ie, LED lighting instead of incandescent, propane instead of electric range) and the sharp dive in PV panel price, it would now cost me $7000-$8000 to install enough PV to be electrically neutral, grid-wise, over a year. ie, generate more than I use in summer, use more than I generate in winter, all equaling zero net. Five years ago, the same parameter would have cost me $21,000-$24,000.

The big problem with solar PV and wind turbines, like electric cars, is storage. Wind and solar PV tend to be complementary; more wind power outside of daylight hours, and solar during daylight only. Overall, since there is much higher usage during the day, its a good fit.

Note this: "at costs comparable to today's electricity expenses". Yup. What is frequently overlooked by nearly everyone is that you cease having to pay constantly and forever for fuel to power your electricity sources. Over time, the cost of renewables is much lower due to this.

99.9% isn't even needed, as there is always some hydro-electric, nuclear, and other sources available. The bar is set much lower than that--but if worse comes to worse, ALL coal, natural gas, and oil-fired (as in bunker C or local diesel) carbon-dioxide emitting power plants could be shut down, for a completely carbon-free grid. There is that wiggle room though to eventually decommission all nuclear power as well as coal, oil, and natural gas.

Excess wind power can make pure hydrogen by splitting water through electrolysis, which can be stored short term and then run through large stationary hydrogen fuel cells to provide both electricity on demand, as well as heat which can be used as process heat for industry, or simply to heat buildings/swimming pools/hot water from central distribution. That is a form of a 'battery storage' Hydrogen isn't good for anything much but short term storage as it leaks from everything, but flattening out the peaks and valleys of daytime/nighttime power use/supply would work well. Hydrogen is only cost effective if you have massive amounts of 'free' electricity though, like unused wind turbine electricity. Extra backup power, perhaps not solely centrally stored in a utility with 'batteries', but locally in your own house, or via your electric car (this is being done on a test basis even now)can give all the backup needed, regularly and in an emergency both.
Profile Pic
Night Owl
Champion Author Toronto

Posts:10,100
Points:2,394,700
Joined:Jul 2004
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:49:23 AM

Both solar and wind technology are going to have to improve dramatically and costs will have to come down. Let's see what happens.
Profile Pic
crep1291
Champion Author Ottawa

Posts:3,150
Points:550,820
Joined:Dec 2010
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:45:36 AM

We'll get there eventually, even if there are no subsidies. It will just take longer.
Profile Pic
Norm10
Champion Author British Columbia

Posts:5,173
Points:251,260
Joined:Dec 2010
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:18:26 AM

Yes - but at what cost - anything is possible if you just throw enough tax payer money at it!
Profile Pic
pbalmeo
Champion Author Los Angeles

Posts:1,024
Points:577,890
Joined:Aug 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:13:09 AM

Not there yet. Technology has.not caught up.with our use of electricity.
Profile Pic
Van_Halen
Champion Author Atlanta

Posts:3,038
Points:1,131,830
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:59:56 AM

.
This is an ABSOLUTE OUTRIGHT LIE!

"While keeping costs low", just exactly how would that be possible when energy wise Winds production cost is only exceeded by Solar's cost?! IE the two most expensive ways to produce electricity! Next, both technologies can NOT make power by demand or on demand, so even with storage it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to ever power the grid alone!
Profile Pic
fuel2use
Champion Author Seattle

Posts:5,557
Points:1,245,150
Joined:Dec 2010
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:58:47 AM

Storage would extremely help.
Profile Pic
peabeax55
All-Star Author Atlanta

Posts:858
Points:298,925
Joined:Mar 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:56:31 AM

One size does not fit all across this vast country. It would be fantastic if there was a way to implement this easily.
Profile Pic
fora_7
Champion Author Montreal

Posts:3,516
Points:819,450
Joined:Sep 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:52:31 AM

This kind of energy, non-polluting, would gain to increase in popularity
Profile Pic
BburgCW
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:3,065
Points:1,617,690
Joined:Jun 2009
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:47:20 AM

It's time to move forward!
Profile Pic
merlinCO
Champion Author Colorado

Posts:4,263
Points:947,460
Joined:Mar 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:21:50 AM

Because convential sources don't want to be second best, as they fund elections.
Profile Pic
car253
Champion Author Ohio

Posts:8,779
Points:2,049,875
Joined:Oct 2008
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:12:26 AM

This is an agenda driven article, cost would be astronomical.
Profile Pic
ss70
Champion Author Detroit

Posts:12,904
Points:2,446,405
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:06:10 AM

is that economical than nat gas or coal?
Profile Pic
ForeignBody
All-Star Author Georgia

Posts:670
Points:788,365
Joined:May 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 8:10:08 AM

We should be leading the world in these technologies, but sadly we are far behind.

We can fly to the moon but can't develop systems to capture wind and solar effectively? Of course we can! It just needs motivation and leadership.
Profile Pic
el_fr
Champion Author Massachusetts

Posts:5,978
Points:1,359,680
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 8:08:00 AM

Unlikely
Profile Pic
Joeski1
Champion Author New Jersey

Posts:13,371
Points:2,355,160
Joined:Dec 2004
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:53:30 AM

No doubt about it.

So far , 2 or 3 nuke plants have been replaced by solar and wind.

And that is a big statement on what is possible.

A nuke plant and its waste by product is the worst thing mankind has ever done up to horizontal fracking.
Profile Pic
BigRedVTX
Champion Author Georgia

Posts:1,651
Points:665,535
Joined:Jun 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:44:53 AM

As with the off shore wind leases being offered by the government, without super storage, this becomes moot.
Profile Pic
humblepie
Champion Author Toledo

Posts:57,755
Points:2,987,120
Joined:Mar 2006
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:38:36 AM

selling wolf tickets again are they ?
Profile Pic
ClarkSC
Champion Author South Carolina

Posts:5,607
Points:1,620,345
Joined:May 2010
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:34:33 AM

Nonsense!
Profile Pic
gfox4810
Champion Author Kalamazoo

Posts:2,899
Points:963,100
Joined:Jul 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:22:33 AM

Don't believe everything you read.
Profile Pic
molebaby96
Champion Author Tallahassee

Posts:3,452
Points:1,062,410
Joined:Nov 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:19:42 AM

Funded by to much green money.
Profile Pic
bar1035
Champion Author Charlotte

Posts:12,884
Points:1,911,545
Joined:Aug 2006
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:17:57 AM

Colleges are good at theoretical musings
Profile Pic
gcalleja
Champion Author Miami

Posts:2,958
Points:1,129,870
Joined:May 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:00:18 AM

How much money is the US borrowing from China to do this?
Profile Pic
joekool1
Champion Author Toledo

Posts:1,099
Points:131,280
Joined:Sep 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 6:24:16 AM

wind and solar will never stand on their own, storage or not
Profile Pic
FPLREP
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:11,346
Points:3,059,335
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 6:18:57 AM

poster wrote "Shame on the teabagger Republicans for being against Green Energy." They aren't against green nergy, just against wasting government "green". Can you say Solyndra? knew you could.
Profile Pic
George0446
Champion Author Massachusetts

Posts:1,015
Points:460,165
Joined:Apr 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:47:56 AM

If you really think that it is viable then put your money behind it and prove it.
Profile Pic
JLSindy
Champion Author Cleveland

Posts:5,559
Points:1,258,635
Joined:Aug 2005
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:16:53 AM

There is probably not enough grease for the palms in DC to keep this going!
Profile Pic
angel4me
Champion Author San Jose

Posts:2,814
Points:841,745
Joined:Dec 2010
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 3:26:03 AM

they only thought of this now????
Profile Pic
FluffyDogAttack
Champion Author Riverside

Posts:1,770
Points:190,965
Joined:Oct 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:55:22 AM

Yeah! Shame on teabaggers for demanding people actually live in reality. Geez, energy should magically be free from wind and solar. It's not like it costs anything to make this happen...right?

Smoke, smoke, smoke the hopium. Keep the blinders on. May the Unicorn be with you.
Profile Pic
MrLefty0706
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:4,035
Points:962,335
Joined:Apr 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:37:28 AM

Let's keep this project moving!
Profile Pic
leeac
Champion Author Ohio

Posts:4,258
Points:1,047,865
Joined:Jan 2012
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:26:37 AM

Thank-you, President Obama, for supporting Green Energy and energy independence. Shame on the teabagger Republicans for being against Green Energy.
Profile Pic
mrselfdestruct
Champion Author Arkansas

Posts:1,288
Points:201,100
Joined:Aug 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:08:00 AM

And progress marches on.
Profile Pic
jrsva
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:12,727
Points:2,226,550
Joined:Jan 2006
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:07:33 AM

“. . . 115 GW of inland wind . . .”

That would require about 57000 of the typical 2-MW turbines. These are generally placed along ridge tops at about 8 per mile, which would require over 7000 miles of ridges. That means desecrating a huge amount of land with these monstrosities, not to mention an investment on the order of $200-300G. And that does not include the offshore wind or solar installations. Not going to happen.

Profile Pic
Luckylindy
Champion Author Milwaukee

Posts:6,866
Points:1,712,245
Joined:May 2008
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:05:27 AM

At what cost?
Profile Pic
kgbellman
Champion Author Ann Arbor

Posts:5,335
Points:1,344,970
Joined:Mar 2011
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:03:11 AM

This has merit, it's just a matter of doing it now
Profile Pic
Buckeyee
Champion Author Maine

Posts:7,840
Points:1,475,860
Joined:May 2010
Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 1:59:54 AM

When it comes to locating wind farms, you hear not in my area, it ruins my view !! Put it somewhere else.
Post a reply Back to Topics