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Author Topic: Wind and Solar Power Paired With Storage Could Power Grid 99.9 Percent of the Time Back to Topics
aservant
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California

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:17:13 AM

Renewable energy could fully power a large electric grid 99.9 percent of the time by 2030 at costs comparable to today's electricity expenses, according to new research by the University of Delaware and Delaware Technical Community College.

A well-designed combination of wind power, solar power and storage in batteries and fuel cells would nearly always exceed electricity demands while keeping costs low, the scientists found.

"These results break the conventional wisdom that renewable energy is too unreliable and expensive," said co-author Willett Kempton, professor in the School of Marine Science and Policy in UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment. "The key is to get the right combination of electricity sources and storage -- which we did by an exhaustive search -- and to
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LetemEatCake
Champion Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 10:54:01 PM


I agree, let's not say how it won't work.....let's just get it done!
WanderDan
All-Star Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 1:20:18 PM

thanks PDQBlues... we have to hope that maybe 10% of the talks on here are productive - the rest are people NEEDING to whine cry and complain about politics. renewable energy sources should be moving forward faster for home market. It is obvious the challenges for vehicles but we have the technology at this moment for home use. there are so many ways to conserve that will save us money at the pump. These actions COULD also reduce our need for foreign oil greatly which would help us stop funding those that consider us the enemy. Simple changes like tank less water heaters could save BILLIONS in energy use and requirements. Imagine what solar panels and a battery bank the size of a fridge could do for your home energy bill. All in conjunction with current systems - not replacing but augmenting.

[Edited by: WanderDan at 12/12/2012 1:24:23 PM EST]
jrs4125
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 8:11:41 AM

Lets make it happen.
MAC48
Champion Author Dallas

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 4:36:47 AM

Beware of any entity or professional whose opinions or studies just may be designed to keep research funding flowing in their direction. While the ability to store power in massive quantities is theoretically possible, it is neither practical nor cost justified as present. Will new technology advance to the point where large scale storage of electricity is both practical and cost justified, that is possible but it will not happen in our lifetimes nor will it happen in the lifetimes of our children or grand children.

agrico -- I grew up in West Texas and spent 50 years there and the wind does not blow all the time nor does it blow within the speed range required for wind turbine power generation when you and I can actually feel the wind passing us by.
agrico
Champion Author New Orleans

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:42:23 PM

wind blows all the time in West Texas
LetemEatCake
Champion Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:38:59 PM


Hmmm...suppose that Pop from TX likes to glow in the dark?
sillywagon
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:42:54 PM

Eighteen years isn't too far in the future. We will see if this comes true.
drpepperTX
Champion Author Texas

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 6:36:41 PM

LOL, joeski1 says "A nuke plant and its waste by product is the worst thing mankind has ever done up to horizontal fracking."
=====================
WOW! Holocausts rank below hydraulic fracturing? Just wow!
qwerty17
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:37:43 PM

time for giant batteries.
PDQBlues
Champion Author San Diego

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 1:06:19 PM


Excellent points, WanderDan. It would be honest for these naysayers to understand that as any new technology becomes more popular, production costs go down very heavily. So in a few years, solar power could be cheaper to produce then from oil.
WanderDan
All-Star Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:26:01 PM

throw in the "it will cost too much" frenzy of those listening to some politicians and the point they fail to realize is... just imagine how much job growth and wealth could be created by a true effort for us as a nation. Imagine 5 years from now not having an energy bill?

[Edited by: WanderDan at 12/11/2012 12:27:19 PM EST]
WanderDan
All-Star Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:17:52 PM

sadly tho it must be realized that many people are like the people posting here and AFRAID of costs. They would much rather spend far more money on the fossil fuels because it is a smaller everyday payment instead of a bigger up front payment then cost drop every day and over time you save COUNTLESS dollars. Plus they just want to ignore the environment impacts.
nsdp
Champion Author San Antonio

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:14:00 PM

Good post Orphan carguy. I will add that Phillips Petrochemicals developed salt cavern storage that can store up to 100gwh(100 million kwh) per cavern for up to two years. Waste product from using hydrogen in a Brayton cycle plant is 100% super pure water made from brackish water. Solves two problems at once.



[Edited by: nsdp at 12/11/2012 12:16:11 PM EST]
WanderDan
All-Star Author Dayton

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:10:28 PM

orphancarguyPE -- great info - hopefully we will all get past the silly politics of this issue and move forward. throw in conservation and self awareness and we would all be able to cut so much usage with no impact. Someone also mentioned nuclear and on that front some interesting research is being done into traveling wave reactors - which COULD be able to use up what is now considered waste material. It could be key in the gaps of solar and wind technology.
orphancarguyPE
Champion Author PEI

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 11:23:59 AM

For those who haven't been keeping up, some solar is very cost effective right now especially when used for heating air and hot water. My solar hot water and solar air heater panels cost me $11,000+ to install, cost less than $10 a year to run for both systems, and save me about $4000 a year in heating oil not used to heat hot water and heating radiators, and a large -amount of electricity to run the oilfired boiler and circulation pumps. So, Its long paid off and now is saving me an actual $4000 a year.

Where it is more expensive is using wind and solar PV to generate electricity. Even there, the cost has plummeted. Between doing an energy audit and changing my electricity usage (ie, LED lighting instead of incandescent, propane instead of electric range) and the sharp dive in PV panel price, it would now cost me $7000-$8000 to install enough PV to be electrically neutral, grid-wise, over a year. ie, generate more than I use in summer, use more than I generate in winter, all equaling zero net. Five years ago, the same parameter would have cost me $21,000-$24,000.

The big problem with solar PV and wind turbines, like electric cars, is storage. Wind and solar PV tend to be complementary; more wind power outside of daylight hours, and solar during daylight only. Overall, since there is much higher usage during the day, its a good fit.

Note this: "at costs comparable to today's electricity expenses". Yup. What is frequently overlooked by nearly everyone is that you cease having to pay constantly and forever for fuel to power your electricity sources. Over time, the cost of renewables is much lower due to this.

99.9% isn't even needed, as there is always some hydro-electric, nuclear, and other sources available. The bar is set much lower than that--but if worse comes to worse, ALL coal, natural gas, and oil-fired (as in bunker C or local diesel) carbon-dioxide emitting power plants could be shut down, for a completely carbon-free grid. There is that wiggle room though to eventually decommission all nuclear power as well as coal, oil, and natural gas.

Excess wind power can make pure hydrogen by splitting water through electrolysis, which can be stored short term and then run through large stationary hydrogen fuel cells to provide both electricity on demand, as well as heat which can be used as process heat for industry, or simply to heat buildings/swimming pools/hot water from central distribution. That is a form of a 'battery storage' Hydrogen isn't good for anything much but short term storage as it leaks from everything, but flattening out the peaks and valleys of daytime/nighttime power use/supply would work well. Hydrogen is only cost effective if you have massive amounts of 'free' electricity though, like unused wind turbine electricity. Extra backup power, perhaps not solely centrally stored in a utility with 'batteries', but locally in your own house, or via your electric car (this is being done on a test basis even now)can give all the backup needed, regularly and in an emergency both.
Night Owl
Champion Author Toronto

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:49:23 AM

Both solar and wind technology are going to have to improve dramatically and costs will have to come down. Let's see what happens.
crep1291
Champion Author Ottawa

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:45:36 AM

We'll get there eventually, even if there are no subsidies. It will just take longer.
Norm10
Champion Author British Columbia

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:18:26 AM

Yes - but at what cost - anything is possible if you just throw enough tax payer money at it!
pbalmeo
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:13:09 AM

Not there yet. Technology has.not caught up.with our use of electricity.
Van_Halen
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:59:56 AM

.
This is an ABSOLUTE OUTRIGHT LIE!

"While keeping costs low", just exactly how would that be possible when energy wise Winds production cost is only exceeded by Solar's cost?! IE the two most expensive ways to produce electricity! Next, both technologies can NOT make power by demand or on demand, so even with storage it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to ever power the grid alone!
fuel2use
Champion Author Seattle

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:58:47 AM

Storage would extremely help.
peabeax55
All-Star Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:56:31 AM

One size does not fit all across this vast country. It would be fantastic if there was a way to implement this easily.
fora_7
Champion Author Montreal

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:52:31 AM

This kind of energy, non-polluting, would gain to increase in popularity
BburgCW
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:47:20 AM

It's time to move forward!
merlinCO
Champion Author Colorado

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:21:50 AM

Because convential sources don't want to be second best, as they fund elections.
car253
Champion Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:12:26 AM

This is an agenda driven article, cost would be astronomical.
ss70
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:06:10 AM

is that economical than nat gas or coal?
ForeignBody
All-Star Author Georgia

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 8:10:08 AM

We should be leading the world in these technologies, but sadly we are far behind.

We can fly to the moon but can't develop systems to capture wind and solar effectively? Of course we can! It just needs motivation and leadership.
el_fr
Champion Author Massachusetts

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 8:08:00 AM

Unlikely
Joeski1
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:53:30 AM

No doubt about it.

So far , 2 or 3 nuke plants have been replaced by solar and wind.

And that is a big statement on what is possible.

A nuke plant and its waste by product is the worst thing mankind has ever done up to horizontal fracking.
BigRedVTX
Champion Author Georgia

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:44:53 AM

As with the off shore wind leases being offered by the government, without super storage, this becomes moot.
humblepie
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:38:36 AM

selling wolf tickets again are they ?
ClarkSC
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:34:33 AM

Nonsense!
gfox4810
Champion Author Kalamazoo

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:22:33 AM

Don't believe everything you read.
molebaby96
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:19:42 AM

Funded by to much green money.
bar1035
Champion Author Charlotte

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:17:57 AM

Colleges are good at theoretical musings
gcalleja
Champion Author Miami

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:00:18 AM

How much money is the US borrowing from China to do this?
joekool1
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 6:24:16 AM

wind and solar will never stand on their own, storage or not
FPLREP
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 6:18:57 AM

poster wrote "Shame on the teabagger Republicans for being against Green Energy." They aren't against green nergy, just against wasting government "green". Can you say Solyndra? knew you could.
George0446
Champion Author Massachusetts

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:47:56 AM

If you really think that it is viable then put your money behind it and prove it.
JLSindy
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:16:53 AM

There is probably not enough grease for the palms in DC to keep this going!
angel4me
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 3:26:03 AM

they only thought of this now????
FluffyDogAttack
Champion Author Riverside

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:55:22 AM

Yeah! Shame on teabaggers for demanding people actually live in reality. Geez, energy should magically be free from wind and solar. It's not like it costs anything to make this happen...right?

Smoke, smoke, smoke the hopium. Keep the blinders on. May the Unicorn be with you.
MrLefty0706
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:37:28 AM

Let's keep this project moving!
leeac
Champion Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:26:37 AM

Thank-you, President Obama, for supporting Green Energy and energy independence. Shame on the teabagger Republicans for being against Green Energy.
mrselfdestruct
Champion Author Arkansas

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:08:00 AM

And progress marches on.
jrsva
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:07:33 AM

“. . . 115 GW of inland wind . . .”

That would require about 57000 of the typical 2-MW turbines. These are generally placed along ridge tops at about 8 per mile, which would require over 7000 miles of ridges. That means desecrating a huge amount of land with these monstrosities, not to mention an investment on the order of $200-300G. And that does not include the offshore wind or solar installations. Not going to happen.

Luckylindy
Champion Author Milwaukee

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:05:27 AM

At what cost?
kgbellman
Champion Author Ann Arbor

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:03:11 AM

This has merit, it's just a matter of doing it now
Buckeyee
Champion Author Maine

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 1:59:54 AM

When it comes to locating wind farms, you hear not in my area, it ruins my view !! Put it somewhere else.
comprof
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 1:59:39 AM

Solar is too expensive for poor people.
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