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Author	Topic: Wind and Solar Power Paired With Storage Could Power Grid 99.9 Percent of the Time	Post a Reply Back to Topics

aservant Champion Author California Posts:14,205 Points:1,385,015 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:17:13 AM Ignore aservant Report Abuse Renewable energy could fully power a large electric grid 99.9 percent of the time by 2030 at costs comparable to today's electricity expenses, according to new research by the University of Delaware and Delaware Technical Community College. A well-designed combination of wind power, solar power and storage in batteries and fuel cells would nearly always exceed electricity demands while keeping costs low, the scientists found. "These results break the conventional wisdom that renewable energy is too unreliable and expensive," said co-author Willett Kempton, professor in the School of Marine Science and Policy in UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment. "The key is to get the right combination of electricity sources and storage -- which we did by an exhaustive search -- and to Visit Science Daily for full article

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Renewable energy could fully power a large electric grid 99.9 percent of the time by 2030 at costs comparable to today's electricity expenses, according to new research by the University of Delaware and Delaware Technical Community College.

A well-designed combination of wind power, solar power and storage in batteries and fuel cells would nearly always exceed electricity demands while keeping costs low, the scientists found.

"These results break the conventional wisdom that renewable energy is too unreliable and expensive," said co-author Willett Kempton, professor in the School of Marine Science and Policy in UD's College of Earth, Ocean, and Environment. "The key is to get the right combination of electricity sources and storage -- which we did by an exhaustive search -- and to
Visit Science Daily for full article

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LetemEatCake Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:5,596 Points:1,205,480 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 10:54:01 PM Ignore LetemEatCake Report Abuse I agree, let's not say how it won't work.....let's just get it done!
WanderDan All-Star Author Dayton Posts:591 Points:144,460 Joined:Nov 2012	Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 1:20:18 PM Ignore WanderDan Report Abuse thanks PDQBlues... we have to hope that maybe 10% of the talks on here are productive - the rest are people NEEDING to whine cry and complain about politics. renewable energy sources should be moving forward faster for home market. It is obvious the challenges for vehicles but we have the technology at this moment for home use. there are so many ways to conserve that will save us money at the pump. These actions COULD also reduce our need for foreign oil greatly which would help us stop funding those that consider us the enemy. Simple changes like tank less water heaters could save BILLIONS in energy use and requirements. Imagine what solar panels and a battery bank the size of a fridge could do for your home energy bill. All in conjunction with current systems - not replacing but augmenting. [Edited by: WanderDan at 12/12/2012 1:24:23 PM EST]
jrs4125 Champion Author Indiana Posts:2,758 Points:591,745 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 8:11:41 AM Ignore jrs4125 Report Abuse Lets make it happen.
MAC48 Champion Author Dallas Posts:1,547 Points:766,840 Joined:Dec 2006	Message Posted: Dec 12, 2012 4:36:47 AM Ignore MAC48 Report Abuse Beware of any entity or professional whose opinions or studies just may be designed to keep research funding flowing in their direction. While the ability to store power in massive quantities is theoretically possible, it is neither practical nor cost justified as present. Will new technology advance to the point where large scale storage of electricity is both practical and cost justified, that is possible but it will not happen in our lifetimes nor will it happen in the lifetimes of our children or grand children. agrico -- I grew up in West Texas and spent 50 years there and the wind does not blow all the time nor does it blow within the speed range required for wind turbine power generation when you and I can actually feel the wind passing us by.
agrico Veteran Author New Orleans Posts:464 Points:503,665 Joined:Dec 2008	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:42:23 PM Ignore agrico Report Abuse wind blows all the time in West Texas
LetemEatCake Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:5,596 Points:1,205,480 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:38:59 PM Ignore LetemEatCake Report Abuse Hmmm...suppose that Pop from TX likes to glow in the dark?
sillywagon Champion Author New York Posts:14,891 Points:1,441,345 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:42:54 PM Ignore sillywagon Report Abuse Eighteen years isn't too far in the future. We will see if this comes true.
drpepperTX Champion Author Texas Posts:8,945 Points:752,210 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 6:36:41 PM Ignore drpepperTX Report Abuse LOL, joeski1 says "A nuke plant and its waste by product is the worst thing mankind has ever done up to horizontal fracking." ===================== WOW! Holocausts rank below hydraulic fracturing? Just wow!
qwerty17 Champion Author New Jersey Posts:3,655 Points:1,117,900 Joined:Oct 2009	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:37:43 PM Ignore qwerty17 Report Abuse time for giant batteries.
PDQBlues Champion Author San Diego Posts:7,074 Points:1,448,325 Joined:Jan 2009	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 1:06:19 PM Ignore PDQBlues Report Abuse Excellent points, WanderDan. It would be honest for these naysayers to understand that as any new technology becomes more popular, production costs go down very heavily. So in a few years, solar power could be cheaper to produce then from oil.
WanderDan All-Star Author Dayton Posts:591 Points:144,460 Joined:Nov 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:26:01 PM Ignore WanderDan Report Abuse throw in the "it will cost too much" frenzy of those listening to some politicians and the point they fail to realize is... just imagine how much job growth and wealth could be created by a true effort for us as a nation. Imagine 5 years from now not having an energy bill? [Edited by: WanderDan at 12/11/2012 12:27:19 PM EST]
WanderDan All-Star Author Dayton Posts:591 Points:144,460 Joined:Nov 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:17:52 PM Ignore WanderDan Report Abuse sadly tho it must be realized that many people are like the people posting here and AFRAID of costs. They would much rather spend far more money on the fossil fuels because it is a smaller everyday payment instead of a bigger up front payment then cost drop every day and over time you save COUNTLESS dollars. Plus they just want to ignore the environment impacts.
nsdp Champion Author San Antonio Posts:1,117 Points:47,315 Joined:Jun 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:14:00 PM Ignore nsdp Report Abuse Good post Orphan carguy. I will add that Phillips Petrochemicals developed salt cavern storage that can store up to 100gwh(100 million kwh) per cavern for up to two years. Waste product from using hydrogen in a Brayton cycle plant is 100% super pure water made from brackish water. Solves two problems at once. [Edited by: nsdp at 12/11/2012 12:16:11 PM EST]
WanderDan All-Star Author Dayton Posts:591 Points:144,460 Joined:Nov 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 12:10:28 PM Ignore WanderDan Report Abuse orphancarguyPE -- great info - hopefully we will all get past the silly politics of this issue and move forward. throw in conservation and self awareness and we would all be able to cut so much usage with no impact. Someone also mentioned nuclear and on that front some interesting research is being done into traveling wave reactors - which COULD be able to use up what is now considered waste material. It could be key in the gaps of solar and wind technology.
orphancarguyPE Champion Author PEI Posts:3,848 Points:734,990 Joined:Jan 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 11:23:59 AM Ignore orphancarguyPE Report Abuse For those who haven't been keeping up, some solar is very cost effective right now especially when used for heating air and hot water. My solar hot water and solar air heater panels cost me $11,000+ to install, cost less than $10 a year to run for both systems, and save me about $4000 a year in heating oil not used to heat hot water and heating radiators, and a large -amount of electricity to run the oilfired boiler and circulation pumps. So, Its long paid off and now is saving me an actual $4000 a year. Where it is more expensive is using wind and solar PV to generate electricity. Even there, the cost has plummeted. Between doing an energy audit and changing my electricity usage (ie, LED lighting instead of incandescent, propane instead of electric range) and the sharp dive in PV panel price, it would now cost me $7000-$8000 to install enough PV to be electrically neutral, grid-wise, over a year. ie, generate more than I use in summer, use more than I generate in winter, all equaling zero net. Five years ago, the same parameter would have cost me $21,000-$24,000. The big problem with solar PV and wind turbines, like electric cars, is storage. Wind and solar PV tend to be complementary; more wind power outside of daylight hours, and solar during daylight only. Overall, since there is much higher usage during the day, its a good fit. Note this: "at costs comparable to today's electricity expenses". Yup. What is frequently overlooked by nearly everyone is that you cease having to pay constantly and forever for fuel to power your electricity sources. Over time, the cost of renewables is much lower due to this. 99.9% isn't even needed, as there is always some hydro-electric, nuclear, and other sources available. The bar is set much lower than that--but if worse comes to worse, ALL coal, natural gas, and oil-fired (as in bunker C or local diesel) carbon-dioxide emitting power plants could be shut down, for a completely carbon-free grid. There is that wiggle room though to eventually decommission all nuclear power as well as coal, oil, and natural gas. Excess wind power can make pure hydrogen by splitting water through electrolysis, which can be stored short term and then run through large stationary hydrogen fuel cells to provide both electricity on demand, as well as heat which can be used as process heat for industry, or simply to heat buildings/swimming pools/hot water from central distribution. That is a form of a 'battery storage' Hydrogen isn't good for anything much but short term storage as it leaks from everything, but flattening out the peaks and valleys of daytime/nighttime power use/supply would work well. Hydrogen is only cost effective if you have massive amounts of 'free' electricity though, like unused wind turbine electricity. Extra backup power, perhaps not solely centrally stored in a utility with 'batteries', but locally in your own house, or via your electric car (this is being done on a test basis even now)can give all the backup needed, regularly and in an emergency both.
Night Owl Champion Author Toronto Posts:7,555 Points:1,787,575 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:49:23 AM Ignore Night Owl Report Abuse Both solar and wind technology are going to have to improve dramatically and costs will have to come down. Let's see what happens.
crep1291 Champion Author Ottawa Posts:2,579 Points:481,045 Joined:Dec 2010	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:45:36 AM Ignore crep1291 Report Abuse We'll get there eventually, even if there are no subsidies. It will just take longer.
Norm10 Champion Author British Columbia Posts:3,342 Points:162,925 Joined:Dec 2010	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:18:26 AM Ignore Norm10 Report Abuse Yes - but at what cost - anything is possible if you just throw enough tax payer money at it!
pbalmeo All-Star Author Los Angeles Posts:890 Points:187,340 Joined:Aug 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 10:13:09 AM Ignore pbalmeo Report Abuse Not there yet. Technology has.not caught up.with our use of electricity.
Van_Halen Champion Author Atlanta Posts:2,850 Points:641,980 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:59:56 AM Ignore Van_Halen Report Abuse . This is an ABSOLUTE OUTRIGHT LIE! "While keeping costs low", just exactly how would that be possible when energy wise Winds production cost is only exceeded by Solar's cost?! IE the two most expensive ways to produce electricity! Next, both technologies can NOT make power by demand or on demand, so even with storage it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to ever power the grid alone!
fuel2use Champion Author Seattle Posts:3,488 Points:733,325 Joined:Dec 2010	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:58:47 AM Ignore fuel2use Report Abuse Storage would extremely help.
peabeax55 All-Star Author Atlanta Posts:713 Points:185,515 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:56:31 AM Ignore peabeax55 Report Abuse One size does not fit all across this vast country. It would be fantastic if there was a way to implement this easily.
fora_7 All-Star Author Montreal Posts:862 Points:206,405 Joined:Sep 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:52:31 AM Ignore fora_7 Report Abuse This kind of energy, non-polluting, would gain to increase in popularity
BburgCW Champion Author Virginia Posts:2,686 Points:1,179,630 Joined:Jun 2009	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:47:20 AM Ignore BburgCW Report Abuse It's time to move forward!
merlinCO Champion Author Colorado Posts:1,640 Points:341,395 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:21:50 AM Ignore merlinCO Report Abuse Because convential sources don't want to be second best, as they fund elections.
car253 Champion Author Ohio Posts:6,293 Points:1,468,620 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:12:26 AM Ignore car253 Report Abuse This is an agenda driven article, cost would be astronomical.
ss70 Champion Author Detroit Posts:9,662 Points:1,870,100 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 9:06:10 AM Ignore ss70 Report Abuse is that economical than nat gas or coal?
ForeignBody All-Star Author Georgia Posts:517 Points:428,875 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 8:10:08 AM Ignore ForeignBody Report Abuse We should be leading the world in these technologies, but sadly we are far behind. We can fly to the moon but can't develop systems to capture wind and solar effectively? Of course we can! It just needs motivation and leadership.
el_fr Champion Author Massachusetts Posts:3,337 Points:744,700 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 8:08:00 AM Ignore el_fr Report Abuse Unlikely
Joeski1 Champion Author New Jersey Posts:10,001 Points:1,741,835 Joined:Dec 2004	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:53:30 AM Ignore Joeski1 Report Abuse No doubt about it. So far , 2 or 3 nuke plants have been replaced by solar and wind. And that is a big statement on what is possible. A nuke plant and its waste by product is the worst thing mankind has ever done up to horizontal fracking.
BigRedVTX All-Star Author Georgia Posts:872 Points:503,055 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:44:53 AM Ignore BigRedVTX Report Abuse As with the off shore wind leases being offered by the government, without super storage, this becomes moot.
humblepie Champion Author Toledo Posts:34,231 Points:2,371,370 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:38:36 AM Ignore humblepie Report Abuse selling wolf tickets again are they ?
ClarkSC Champion Author South Carolina Posts:3,078 Points:1,011,405 Joined:May 2010	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:34:33 AM Ignore ClarkSC Report Abuse Nonsense!
gfox4810 Champion Author Kalamazoo Posts:1,186 Points:395,750 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:22:33 AM Ignore gfox4810 Report Abuse Don't believe everything you read.
molebaby96 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:2,126 Points:505,390 Joined:Nov 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:19:42 AM Ignore molebaby96 Report Abuse Funded by to much green money.
bar1035 Champion Author Charlotte Posts:9,161 Points:1,298,220 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:17:57 AM Ignore bar1035 Report Abuse Colleges are good at theoretical musings
gcalleja All-Star Author Miami Posts:914 Points:549,970 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 7:00:18 AM Ignore gcalleja Report Abuse How much money is the US borrowing from China to do this?
joekool1 Champion Author Toledo Posts:1,099 Points:131,280 Joined:Sep 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 6:24:16 AM Ignore joekool1 Report Abuse wind and solar will never stand on their own, storage or not
FPLREP Champion Author Virginia Posts:8,261 Points:2,448,250 Joined:Oct 2005	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 6:18:57 AM Ignore FPLREP Report Abuse poster wrote "Shame on the teabagger Republicans for being against Green Energy." They aren't against green nergy, just against wasting government "green". Can you say Solyndra? knew you could.
George0446 All-Star Author Massachusetts Posts:500 Points:231,100 Joined:Apr 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:47:56 AM Ignore George0446 Report Abuse If you really think that it is viable then put your money behind it and prove it.
JLSindy Champion Author Cleveland Posts:3,491 Points:673,265 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 5:16:53 AM Ignore JLSindy Report Abuse There is probably not enough grease for the palms in DC to keep this going!
angel4me Champion Author San Jose Posts:2,814 Points:795,295 Joined:Dec 2010	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 3:26:03 AM Ignore angel4me Report Abuse they only thought of this now????
FluffyDogAttack Champion Author Riverside Posts:1,082 Points:96,795 Joined:Oct 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:55:22 AM Ignore FluffyDogAttack Report Abuse Yeah! Shame on teabaggers for demanding people actually live in reality. Geez, energy should magically be free from wind and solar. It's not like it costs anything to make this happen...right? Smoke, smoke, smoke the hopium. Keep the blinders on. May the Unicorn be with you.
MrLefty0706 Champion Author Chicago Posts:1,444 Points:351,085 Joined:Apr 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:37:28 AM Ignore MrLefty0706 Report Abuse Let's keep this project moving!
leeac Champion Author Ohio Posts:1,596 Points:433,905 Joined:Jan 2012	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:26:37 AM Ignore leeac Report Abuse Thank-you, President Obama, for supporting Green Energy and energy independence. Shame on the teabagger Republicans for being against Green Energy.
mrselfdestruct All-Star Author Arkansas Posts:998 Points:167,600 Joined:Aug 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:08:00 AM Ignore mrselfdestruct Report Abuse And progress marches on.
jrsva Champion Author Virginia Posts:9,853 Points:1,613,020 Joined:Jan 2006	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:07:33 AM Ignore jrsva Report Abuse “. . . 115 GW of inland wind . . .” That would require about 57000 of the typical 2-MW turbines. These are generally placed along ridge tops at about 8 per mile, which would require over 7000 miles of ridges. That means desecrating a huge amount of land with these monstrosities, not to mention an investment on the order of $200-300G. And that does not include the offshore wind or solar installations. Not going to happen.
Luckylindy Champion Author Milwaukee Posts:4,514 Points:1,127,070 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:05:27 AM Ignore Luckylindy Report Abuse At what cost?
kgbellman Champion Author Ann Arbor Posts:2,713 Points:731,840 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 2:03:11 AM Ignore kgbellman Report Abuse This has merit, it's just a matter of doing it now
Buckeyee Champion Author Maine Posts:4,610 Points:899,755 Joined:May 2010	Message Posted: Dec 11, 2012 1:59:54 AM Ignore Buckeyee Report Abuse When it comes to locating wind farms, you hear not in my area, it ruins my view !! Put it somewhere else.