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Author Topic: EPA Says Its Ethanol Rules Aren't Driving Up Food Prices Back to Topics
cicio2000

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 1:13:51 PM

Two leading economists who've studied this question — Bruce Babcock at Iowa State University and Wally Tyner at Purdue — agree with the EPA's analysis. "If you look at where gas prices are right now, it looks like it's in the interest of the gas companies to use ethanol," says Babcock.

Babcock says the agency made one additional assumption: That ethanol would have to get a lot more expensive before gasoline company decided to use less of it. The companies are locked in, at least for the short term, by their technical infrastructure: "The oil companies were told that they faced this mandate. They've done the best job possible to comply. They've configured their refineries to use that amount of ethanol, and it's costly for them to switch out of it."

So if this is all true, maybe you can't
Visit NPR for full article
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drpepperTX
Champion Author Texas

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Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 11:41:17 AM

Pure and simple bull feces from the EPA. And all this garbage about 'distillers grains' does nothing to explain the cost of feeds for livestock increasing 100% therefore pushing grocery prices higher and higher.

It's a fact the EPA and the ethanol producers just do not want out there.
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VomVom
Champion Author Calgary

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2012 9:10:58 PM

Iowa and Indiana? Corn producing states? What a coincidence?
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VomVom
Champion Author Calgary

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2012 8:57:22 PM

What does one really expect the EPA to say?
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sjf238
Champion Author Philadelphia

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2012 4:59:52 PM

I don't believe it.
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fuel2use
Champion Author Seattle

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2012 11:47:28 AM

Their opinion.
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jrs4125
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2012 7:24:08 AM

ok
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NOTSOGRN
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2012 2:19:06 AM

.
.
EPA lies...right out of Mr.0s play book...he knows it's OK to lie to infidels...
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jetskijerry
Champion Author North Carolina

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2012 1:01:22 AM

Bull
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LilRedWagonIN
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Nov 25, 2012 12:42:32 AM

what would you expect them to say
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bston
Champion Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2012 10:49:54 PM

Don't trust the EPA nor anything they say!
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Sneakers55
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2012 3:36:14 PM

On Nov 24, 2012 5:52:19 AM, 07skydriver wrote:

>Who was the idiot in charge that let an ethanol mandate
>happen in the first place?

George W. Bush and a lot of (R) farm-state Congressmen and Senators.
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nsdp
Champion Author San Antonio

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2012 1:28:07 PM

07skydiver it was GW Bush , Mitch MCconnell and John Boehner who put the standard in place. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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07skydriver
Champion Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2012 6:52:19 AM

Who was the idiot in charge that let an ethanol mandate happen in the first place?
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RoadScholarOH
Rookie Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2012 6:05:21 AM

The farmer's are claiming higher feed costs due to ethanol production
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Nancy&Len
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2012 5:22:31 AM

Would you expect them to say anything else.
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FluffyDogAttack
Champion Author Riverside

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2012 2:29:44 AM

The corn prices spontaneously spiked in reaction to a youtube video. That is the best information our govt has at the moment.
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blupupher
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2012 1:06:53 AM

they are not helping.
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Jeff4U
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Nov 24, 2012 12:06:28 AM

The same people that voted for Obama also believe what the EPA says.
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Wanda127
Champion Author Florida

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 11:19:27 PM

Well said in one line BuckyTJones. The EPA needs to get their Liberal heads out of the sand,
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esq262
Champion Author Asheville

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 10:13:08 PM

Bull
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nsdp
Champion Author San Antonio

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 10:02:23 PM

iFueler if you had done the mathematics 17.4 lb DDGS/bushel/56lb bushel corn X 3(increased nutritional value of the DDGS)=92.6% (52lb of unprocessed corn)of the nutritional value of kernel corn is returned for animal feed in the DDGS. That means the nutritive value shrink as animal feed is only 7.74% or 4 lb. Starch has no value as nutrition for cattle. It just adds to the pile of manure.

So what has happened is a flaw in the USDA methodology started 50 years ago that fails to account for the total nutritional value of DDGS because it was insignificant. In fact when they say ethanol is 40% of the use of corn they don't account for DDGS at all. In 2010 it was 33 million tons.

A Report from the Economic Research Service

"Corn-based dry-mill ethanol production and that of its coproducts—notably distillers’dried grains with solubles (DDGS)—has surged in the past several years. The U.S.feed industry has focused on the size of this new feed source and its impact on the U.S.feed market, particularly the degree that DDGS substitute for corn and soybean mealin livestock/poultry diets and reduce ethanol’s impact on the feed market. This study develops a method to estimate the potential use of U.S. DDGS and its substitutability for corn and soybean meal in U.S. feed rations. Findings demonstrate that, in aggregate(including major types of livestock/poultry), a metric ton of DDGS can replace,on average, 1.22 metric tons of feed consisting of corn and soybean meal in the United States. Over time, DDGS may substitute for less corn and more soybean meal as the share of beef cattle consumption of DDGS declines slightly (although increasing in absolute terms), with offsetting share increases in dairy cattle, swine, and poultry. Feed market impacts of increased corn use for ethanol are smaller than that indicated by the
total amount of corn used for ethanol production because of DDGS." http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/USDA_report_on_subbing_DDGS_for_Corn_and_Soybean_Meal_in_the_US.pdf Here USDA research at Ames Iowa is taking the statistical bureau to task for an major flaw in the methodology. There are numerous others cited in 6this paper.

The total corn used for ethanol in 2010 was 107 million tons. DDGS produced was 33 million tons If hogs and poultry are fed DDGS this returns 40 million tons of nutritional value which are not recognized anywhere in the USDA numbers you reference. Note hog sand Poultry are ungulates and do not make as efficient use of the DDGS. Cattle which are ruminates (they have 4 stomachs instead of just one) are more efficient and return about 85-95million tons of nutritional value. Return is higher if the cattle can use a 40% DDGS ration rather than a 20% ration.

That is like you taking a load of scrap steel to NICOR and not getting paid for it. Worst case the numbers relied on overstate the amount used by 80% adn int eh worst case by 1000%.

Now if you can find anywhere in your nice little USDA charts where they accurately account for DDGS you are due an apology. Otherwise you qualify as an Anosognosic.
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sillywagon
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 8:27:21 PM

Follow the ethanol brick road, follow the ethanol brick road, follow follow follow follow, follow the ethanol brick road. We're off to see the "EPA", the wonderful "EPA" of Oz.
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fracknsave
Champion Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 6:35:42 PM

Environ mentals Prevaricating Again
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PathfinderSC
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 6:21:06 PM

The EPA has there head in the stuck in the sand.
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iFueler
Champion Author Durham

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 5:55:40 PM

nsdp, Thanks for posting the link to the Ohio State University Extension Fact Sheet entitled “Distillers Grains” dated June 2007 by Bill Weiss, Maurice Eastridge, Dianne Shoemaker, and Normand St-Pierre. While an informative article – which I read by the way – about distillers grain, the point of the referenced in-context statement from the current and frequently updated United States Department of Agriculture Economic Research Service background is "Strong demand for ethanol production has resulted in higher corn prices..." The report also includes the following (which specifically mentions/briefly discusses DISTILLERS GRAIN - DDGs):

“As ethanol production increases, the supply of ethanol coproducts will also increase. Both the dry-milling and wet-milling methods of producing ethanol generate a variety of economically valuable coproducts, the most prominent of which is distillers dried grains with solubles (DDGs), which can be used as a feed ingredient for livestock. Each 56-pound bushel of corn used in dry-mill ethanol production generates about 17.4 pounds of DDGs. In the United States, cattle (both dairy and beef) have been the primary users of DDGS as livestock feed, but larger quantities of DDGs are making their way into the feed rations of hogs and poultry.”

The USDA ERS report is relatively short with a lot of charts – which may be expanded to see/read the underlying statistics. Given your interest in corn and specifically distillers grain, you may want to check the report out. Just copy and take the spaces out of the posted link – sorry, I do not have enough points to post a link, yet. Will be looking for your comments on the report, which I only posted to add a perspective to a civil discussion of the topic.

As for the shovels and hip waders, please send them to the American Red Cross in New York, New Jersey or Connecticut to aid the Hurricane Sandy victims. :-)
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LostInNY
Champion Author New York

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 5:53:08 PM

Spin doctors arriving too late at the corn game!
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leraar2
Champion Author Massachusetts

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 5:40:52 PM

really?
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mike56MI
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 5:33:04 PM

They can say what they want, we know the truth.
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nsdp
Champion Author San Antonio

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 5:09:18 PM

IFueler this is what I love about the selective editing here. Try this which is the feed analysis between kernel corn and distillers grain.

Table 1. Average composition of corn grain and corn distillers grains with solubles1
Corn grain Distillers grains
Crude protein, % 9.4 30
Neutral detergent fiber 9.5 40
Starch, % 70 4
Crude fat, % 4.2 12
Phosphorus, % 0.3 0.8 http://ohioline.osu.edu/as-fact/distillers.html

and and as even the blind can see Distillers Grain is worth about 3 times in nutrition as much per pound as ground corn. That is also why there is less manure.

I feel bad picking on a cripple but send me your address and I will send you a Care package with shovels and hip waders so those around you won't have to step in it. Sorry about the formatting but you can figure out Distillers grain has 3/3 times the protein of kernel corn and nearly 4 times the fat and nearly 3 times the phosphorus. Low starch is an added bonus.



[Edited by: nsdp at 11/23/2012 5:14:43 PM EST]
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iFueler
Champion Author Durham

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 4:44:48 PM

From the United States Department of Agriculture Economic Research Service background report last updated Thursday, November 15, 2012 found at URL:
www . ers . usda . gov /topics/crops/corn/background.aspx

"Strong demand for ethanol production has resulted in higher corn prices and has provided incentives to increase corn acreage. In many cases, farmers have increased corn acreage by adjusting crop rotations between corn and soybeans, which has caused soybean plantings to decrease. Other sources of land for increased corn plantings include cropland used as pasture, reduced fallow, acreage returning to production from expiring Conservation Reserve Program contracts, and shifts from other crops, such as cotton."


[Edited by: iFueler at 11/23/2012 4:47:50 PM EST]
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eomc17
Champion Author Tucson

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 4:42:45 PM

EPA is so corrupt and deceitful that it hurts to read anything about this leftist group anymore.
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04LTC
Veteran Author Massachusetts

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 4:23:31 PM

EPA....lair!
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nsdp
Champion Author San Antonio

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 4:17:14 PM

91% of the nutritional vale of corn used to make ethanol is sold to farmers as livestock feed known as distillers grain. that means we lose about 3.5% of corn to ethanol. Ignoring that puts the person making that argument in the same class as the intelligence agents who argued Saddam Hussein had WMD.

My family has owned a dairy for 60+ years and we buy 2-3000 tons of distillers grain every year because it is a better quality feed than rolled or ground corn. It produces more milk and less manure too. The postings here could use a lot less of the latter.

Buck on Bass you and the rest need to go back to school and learn to get ALL the facts before jumping to conclusions. You couldn't even walk across a cow lot without stepping in the manure. That is something you learn as a kid on a farm.

Claiming ethanol raises prices for food is an argument for losers, liars and whiners.

[Edited by: nsdp at 11/23/2012 4:21:41 PM EST]
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BuckyTJones
Champion Author Salt Lake City

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 4:16:02 PM


The EPA is such a reliable source. I believe everything they say........... NOT
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clpassenubye
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 4:07:24 PM

The EPA is denying the obvious and its just embarrasing
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yankeeriffraff
All-Star Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 4:06:18 PM

How can you tell if an EPA spokesperson is lying? His lips are moving.
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dogsdog
Veteran Author Sacramento

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 3:39:43 PM

EPA!!!! I trust them
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TripleHs
Champion Author Austin

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 3:34:23 PM

ridiculous
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FortVancouver01
Champion Author Washington

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:49:24 PM


Just read a report saying that even with the demands of corn to China and for ethanol and the drought, there is still a surplus of crop lands that is not being utilized and some of which is being subsidized for not growning crops... Also, there are LOTS of other sources for ethanol besides corn and ones like beets and sugar cane more efficient.

Sounds to me that added price for US food due to shortages of corn is just political, speculator and media hype...sort of like the hype about the oil and gas shortage.





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Buck_on_Bass
Champion Author Tennessee

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:32:37 PM

Mr. Charles needs to go back to economics class. With ethanol using at least 40% of the corn crop, the demand for corn is heavily dependent upon mandate to blend ethanol. The increases in corn costs will showing up in poultry and meat prices. Initially the price pressure on beef and pork will be down as producers drop the size of their herds. In parts of the world where to corn (or wheat) is a substantial part of the price paid for a food item, change to grain prices changes what food one may purchase.
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hmw10284
Champion Author California

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:31:32 PM

maybe not but ethanol is making your engine less efficient and will force you to buy a car sooner - so they are indirectly raising the long term cost of car owership
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lesndave
Champion Author Texas

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:19:32 PM

Well, what else would they say...??
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PDQBlues
Champion Author San Diego

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:19:24 PM


Well, yes, that's a very easy statement to make, that the ethanol mandate won't increase food prices. But the food price influences are not within the focus of the EPA. The US must seriously invest in alternative fuels, but making fuel from food stocks is not the answer.
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Taxrefugee
Champion Author Arizona

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:19:07 PM

Defys all logic, except that O and the EPA don't use any where their "green" agenda is concerned.
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humblepie
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:11:36 PM

and lisa jackson can walk on water
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leemun
Champion Author Utah

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 2:10:03 PM

Environazi propaganda. Goebbels would be proud.
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roadrunnerMO
Champion Author Kansas

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 1:36:52 PM

LIES LIES LIES
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BIGOILEATURCRUD
Champion Author North Carolina

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 1:33:58 PM

Fuel prices have driven food prices up; along with everything else!

The price of being addicted to oil.
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CVA19
Champion Author Salem

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 1:32:02 PM

I guess we are suppose to believe that if the EPA says something, it must be so. Especially if reported on National Progressive Radio.

I don't think so.

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tnfran
Champion Author Arizona

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2012 1:29:29 PM

Bunch of idiots. Ethanol should be banned when it comes from a food source.

"Babcock says the agency made one additional assumption: That ethanol would have to get a lot more expensive before gasoline company decided to use less of it. The companies are locked in, at least for the short term, by their technical infrastructure: "The oil companies were told that they faced this mandate. They've done the best job possible to comply. They've configured their refineries to use that amount of ethanol, and it's costly for them to switch out of it."
"Mandate" is the right word and as long as that is the case they ARE LOCKED in not due to cost but "THE LAW from EPA", EnvironMENTAL Pyscho Association".
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