Not Logged In Log In   Sign Up   Points Leaders
Follow Us    7:04 PM

Message Forum - Read Message

Category: All Things Ethanol > Topics Add to favorite topics   Post new topicPost New Topic
Author Topic: ethanol claims another victim, for me to resurrect Back to Topics
oilpan4

Champion Author
Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 10, 2014 8:03:39 PM

I just bought another gasoline powered piece of paper equipment that wont start, wont stay running for next to nothing.
It met my 3 criteria, it was cheap, it would spudder but not run and the gas tank wasnt rusted out.
To be more specific a honda air compressor for $27.
New these things are close to $1000, used ones about half that.
I give it a 98% chance that its a cracked or stiffened fuel pumping diaphragm all thanks to ethanol.
Should cost about $7 to fix.
This is ethanols greatest benifet, a dirt cheap supply of barely broke small engines for me.
I love ethanol.
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
Profile Pic
SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:14,145
Points:2,802,080
Joined:Mar 2006
Message Posted: May 4, 2014 2:47:47 PM

I have no problem with people putting E0 fuel in their tanks. I prefer to save money by not doing so.
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: May 4, 2014 12:22:04 PM

Almost all of the problems with small gasoline engines are fuel system related.

I think its funny how these ethanol can do no wrong believes get so bent out of shape when some one puts ethanol free gas in power equipment.
Profile Pic
BAJALRRP
Champion Author Tacoma

Posts:2,747
Points:1,842,055
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: May 4, 2014 11:35:46 AM

But constantly repairing gets old....
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 3:16:22 PM

You are so quick to write garbage but fail to seek the actual answers, what a surprise. You are a complete failure.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/20/2014 3:22:01 PM EST]
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 20, 2014 12:12:51 PM

I do not need you to answer any of my questions.
You clearly lack the capacity.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 19, 2014 8:50:13 AM

oilpan4 wrote: "What drives the injectors in your car, vacuum tubes?"

As stated already. Put some work into figuring it out, for a change, and you will get the answers to all your questions.
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 11:41:20 PM

What drives the injectors in your car, vacuum tubes?

You can use gasoline to denature the alcohol but that makes the mash hazardous waste.

I thought the point was the alcohol making process is environmentally friendly.

The alcohol has to be denatured before it comes off the condenser or you pay liquor tax.
So which is?
Does the ethanol industry create millions of gallons of haz waste by dumping gas in with the mash or do they denature it with the usual denaturing chemicals?

[Edited by: oilpan4 at 2/18/2014 11:49:25 PM EST]
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 2:50:46 PM

wrote: "So you are saying the ethanol is never any where near 190 proof when its distilled, stored shipped?
Plus it seems you assume that this ethanol is pure, there for food grade. I can assure you it is not. Other wise there would be liquor tax on it. They denature it with contaminants that can not be distilled or charcoal filtered out to make it for human consumption."

Start providing some evidence instead of adding to the list. I'm waiting.

oilpan4 wrote: "I never said the oxygen sensor directly controls the Injectors.
The solid state injector driver array dirrectly controls the injectors.
The Oxygen sensor is an important feed back device the constantly trims fuel injector pulse width."

Nice try. Over the years I have owned different vehicles and none of them used "the solid state injector driver array". Please stop making the stuff up.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/18/2014 2:53:28 PM EST]
Profile Pic
Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

Posts:964
Points:24,300
Joined:Apr 2010
Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 12:55:29 PM

oilpan4, the "contaminant" you refer to is petroleum. Gasoline specifically.

Thank you for finally referring to gasoline as it truly is. One giant contaminant.

I think we should be using more ethanol. It will keep engines running longer. That's why automakers endorse gasoline. The more gasoline you use the more engines you ruin.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/18/2014 12:55:59 PM EST]
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 18, 2014 10:27:41 AM

So you are saying the ethanol is never any where near 190 proof when its distilled, stored shipped?
Plus it seems you assume that this ethanol is pure, there for food grade. I can assure you it is not. Other wise there would be liquor tax on it. They denature it with contaminants that can not be distilled or charcoal filtered out to make it for human consumption.

I never said the oxygen sensor directly controls the Injectors.
The solid state injector driver array dirrectly controls the injectors.
The Oxygen sensor is an important feed back device the constantly trims fuel injector pulse width.
Not as important as MAF and TPS inputs, but you have to have it for closed loop operation.
Profile Pic
barryo62
Rookie Author Iowa

Posts:72
Points:1,890
Joined:Oct 2012
Message Posted: Feb 17, 2014 4:36:49 PM

I have used ethanol blend for years never had problems.
I wonder if some people know what is scheduled maintenance and normal operation is?
Some people never do things like change oil or filters operate or drive fast and abuse cars and equipment.

Profile Pic
daylily2009
Champion Author Fayetteville

Posts:2,380
Points:1,129,600
Joined:Oct 2009
Message Posted: Feb 17, 2014 2:54:07 PM

Ethanol is for Obama .Kerry.Gore and their friends
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 16, 2014 4:34:23 PM

oilpan4 wrote: "So if the Oxygen sensor does not effect the injectors in any way why is it there?
Why is a bad Oxygen sensor one of the top reasons for emmisions testing failure?
Why does it read Oxygen in the exhaust? You saying it just reads the oxygen level and does nothing with the data?"

Show me how O2 sensor directly controls injectors. Put some work into figuring it out, for a change, and you will get the answers to all your questions.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 16, 2014 4:31:23 PM

oilpan4 wrote: "There is no way gasoline alone can corrode anodized aluminum. I the alcohol breaks down onto an acid in the presence of water and iron that attacks the rubber and everything."

Keep on adding to your list. Provide some prove that:

1. "Alcohols dry rots butyl rubber."
2. "There is no way gasoline alone can corrode anodized aluminum.". By the way this chart disagrees with you completely. Anodized aluminum displays satisfactory resistance to ethanol.
3. 190 proof ethanol "breaks down onto an acid".

Lets see it.
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 16, 2014 12:00:31 PM

I am just happy there are some places that still sell ethanol free gas.

There is no way gasoline alone can corrode anodized aluminum. I the alcohol breaks down onto an acid in the presence of water and iron that attacks the rubber and everything.

So if the Oxygen sensor does not effect the injectors in any way why is it there?
Why is a bad Oxygen sensor one of the top reasons for emmisions testing failure?
Why does it read Oxygen in the exhaust? You saying it just reads the oxygen level and does nothing with the data?
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 15, 2014 8:40:59 PM

oilpan4 wrote: "You claim to know so much but dont know what the O2 sensor does."

Unlike you I have a good understanding how O2 sensor works.

oilpan4 wrote: "If the O2 doesnt regulate the fuel mixture then why is altering the placement and exhaust flow over the sensor to fool it into reading leaner the easiest cheapest and fastest way to get the injectors to dump more fuel into the engine?"

Yes, the O2 sensor measures the amount of oxygen present in the exhaust gas. No, it does not control injectors at all.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 15, 2014 8:31:55 PM

oilpan4 wrote: "So what chemical in gasoline eats anodizing off aluminum? Ethanol.
Ethanol is absoluty at fault, things are corroded that water or gasoline cant effect."
also
oilpan4 wrote: "Alcohols dry rots butyl rubber."

You continue to assure everybody about Ethanol being at fault without a shred of evidence. I'm still waiting for you to prove how alcohols dry rots butyl rubber. So far you absolutely did not provide any proof. Please add anodized aluminum to that list.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/15/2014 8:32:12 PM EST]
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 15, 2014 2:42:37 PM

The O2 sensor doesn't regulate the air fuel mixture?
Really? I cant believe you just said that. You claim to know so much but dont know what the O2 sensor does.

If the O2 doesnt regulate the fuel mixture then why is altering the placement and exhaust flow over the sensor to fool it into reading leaner the easiest cheapest and fastest way to get the injectors to dump more fuel into the engine?
This is one of the oldest tricks in the book and is still used on modern heated 5 wire sensors.
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 15, 2014 2:35:33 PM

Another thing I noticed is the carb fuel bowl and dirt trap, both made of anodized aluminum.
The anodized coating has been eaten away.
So what chemical in gasoline eats anodizing off aluminum? Ethanol.
Ethanol is absoluty at fault, things are corroded that water or gasoline cant effect.
There is no way ethanol gas is going to be allowed to sit in the fuel tank, once i get it going again and if I have to I will put what ever gas is available to get the job done. Then afterwards the ethanol will be purged.

Maybe if you understood thermodynamic processes you would understand why more isobaric expansion is bad.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 14, 2014 9:46:53 PM

GrumpyCat wrote: "The oxygenate only serves to fool the O2 sensor into running a tad richer mixture which the EPA rightfully knows burns cleaner."

Pure garbage. O2 sensor does not regulate the mixture.

GrumpyCat wrote: "Oxygenated fuel does not burn cleaner unless its running in an engine that responds with a tad richer mixture."

Wrong again. Complete burn requires air. Rich mixture lacks the necessary air to fully burn fuel.
Profile Pic
GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

Posts:5,422
Points:1,274,790
Joined:Jun 2009
Message Posted: Feb 14, 2014 4:13:28 PM

"Umm, before ethanol there was MTBE and it was terrible for the environment, but not as terrible as burning without an oxygenate."

The oxygenate only serves to fool the O2 sensor into running a tad richer mixture which the EPA rightfully knows burns cleaner. Never mind the engine met EPA specs, the EPA control freaks desire to retroactively revise the specs with "cleaner fuel".

Oxygenated fuel does not burn cleaner unless its running in an engine that responds with a tad richer mixture.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 14, 2014 3:23:46 PM

oilpan4 wrote: "What I can't afford is to pull out a peice of equipment to go do a job for some one and have it not start because it sat and ethanol got to it."

Yet you still fail to provide any proof that Ethanol is at fault.

oilpan4 wrote: "Actually by running oxygenated fuel and using less throttle you are increasing isobaric losses and there for have higher pumping losses and lower fuel economy."

Incorrect. Where exactly did you got the idea that less throttle means lower fuel economy?

oilpan4 wrote: "So dont try to lie to me and tell me that "oxygenated fuel gives better fuel economy"."

Where did that come from?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/14/2014 3:24:41 PM EST]
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 11:33:38 AM

Thats the good thing about current fuels. MTBE is almost completely banned in north America and I can get gas with no ethanol. Best of both worlds.

Since my ethanol free gas contains more heat per gallon I can afford to waste a little.
What I can't afford is to pull out a peice of equipment to go do a job for some one and have it not start because it sat and ethanol got to it.

Actually by running oxygenated fuel and using less throttle you are increasing isobaric losses and there for have higher pumping losses and lower fuel economy.
So dont try to lie to me and tell me that "oxygenated fuel gives better fuel economy".
Profile Pic
darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

Posts:457
Points:6,860
Joined:May 2013
Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 9:19:20 AM

"If buying oxygen to burn in your engine makes you feel better, be my guest and go for it."

Umm, before ethanol there was MTBE and it was terrible for the environment, but not as terrible as burning without an oxygenate. Now we have ethanol, which is itself not bad for the environment, and which allows for a more complete burn (good for your wallet and the environment). To say that you'd rather burn fuel without an oxygenate is silly.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 8:29:59 AM

oilpan4 wrote: "If buying oxygen to burn in your engine makes you feel better, be my guest and go for it."

No problem, cleaner and more complete burn keeps my engines strong and healthy. Looks like you are a big fan of wasted heat, enjoy.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/13/2014 8:30:44 AM EST]
Profile Pic
dassfg
Champion Author Fort Worth

Posts:2,416
Points:1,076,520
Joined:Mar 2011
Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 6:47:18 AM

Always good to see things in a positive light
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 12, 2014 11:44:32 PM

If I wanted a fuel that carries its own oxygen I would run nitromethane.

Since I dont have a need to go down a quarter mile in less than 5 seconds crossing the finishing line at over 300mph, I will use atmospheric oxygen by opening the throttle more.
Big difference between oxygen in ethanol and oxygen in the air is I dont have to pay for atmospheric oxygen.
If buying oxygen to burn in your engine makes you feel better, be my guest and go for it.
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:23,037
Points:3,329,460
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Feb 12, 2014 1:53:40 AM

"Sounds to me like someone left fuel in the machine for a month then blamed it on E10. This happens with E0 too."

Actually, it does. But with ethanol it might take a year or two. Not really sure, as it has never happened to me.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 8:16:21 PM

oilpan4 wrote: "At least when hydrocarbons break down they form other hydrocarbons."

When you add Oxygen to Hydrogen and Carbon you get cleaner and more complete burn. Thank you Ethanol.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 7:55:59 PM

oilpan4 wrote: "And you assume ethanol is chemically stable."

Comparing to a mixture of about 150 different chemicals called gasoline, yes it is stable. On the other hand, maybe you need to rethink your assumptions about gasoline.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/11/2014 8:00:34 PM EST]
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 5:03:14 PM

Yes ethanol is the scapegoat. And you assume ethanol is chemically stable. At least when hydrocarbons break down they form other hydrocarbons.
How about the other chemicals ethanol breaks down into?
Profile Pic
GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

Posts:5,422
Points:1,274,790
Joined:Jun 2009
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 4:35:49 PM

"Sounds to me like someone left fuel in the machine for a month then blamed it on E10. This happens with E0 too."

Actually, it doesn't. Takes about a year with E0.
Profile Pic
darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

Posts:457
Points:6,860
Joined:May 2013
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 12:48:17 PM

Sounds to me like someone left fuel in the machine for a month then blamed it on E10. This happens with E0 too.

And even if ethanol were the culprit, it's funny that a $7 part would be a good reason to drag our heels on advancing technology.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:8,316
Points:1,337,630
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 12:14:52 PM

oilpan4 wrote: "Alcohols dry rots butyl rubber."

Moss Rubber Chemical Resistance Chart disagrees with you.

Butyl chemical resistance:

ETHANOL (GRAIN ALCOHOL) - EXCELLENT

How about other commonly used chemicals in gasoline?

BENZENE - UNSATISFACTORY
XYLENE - UNSATISFACTORY

Of course, Ethanol is the excellent scapegoat, isn't.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/11/2014 12:13:35 PM EST]
Profile Pic
oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:13,660
Points:332,270
Joined:Jul 2006
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 11:28:30 AM

I will replace the diaphragm with a factory replacement and try to stay away from ethanol fuel.

Did ethanol cause it?
More than likely.
Having pulled the fuel system apart I dont see any other possible cause.

Alcohols dry rots butyl rubber. The automotive industry stopped using it. These little fuel pumping diaphragms used in small engines are still made of it.
Profile Pic
darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

Posts:457
Points:6,860
Joined:May 2013
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 11:05:30 AM

What will you replace the diaphragm with?
Profile Pic
Cap0007
Veteran Author Providence

Posts:443
Points:316,910
Joined:Nov 2013
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 9:13:34 AM

gota love it
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:23,037
Points:3,329,460
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Feb 11, 2014 12:53:31 AM

You have absolutely no idea that ethanol caused this problem...do you?
Post a reply Back to Topics