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Author Topic: Tell the EPA to reduce ethanol Back to Topics
Phoe-Phoe

Champion Author
Michigan

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2013 7:20:36 AM

Send a letter to the EPA about reducing ethanol requirements

From Energy Citizens: Tell the EPA that it needs to stick to its plan to reduce the ethanol in our fuel!
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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46chief
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jul 7, 2014 10:36:34 AM

I'll go for that.
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RS101
Champion Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jan 10, 2014 9:36:34 PM

good luck there
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Wanda127
Champion Author Florida

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Message Posted: Jan 10, 2014 10:47:54 AM

This would be great but doubt if it will happen.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 9, 2014 12:54:35 PM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "I don't remeber saying that ethanol was the ONLY thing that contributed to higher food prices, just that IT does..."

Please tell us exactly how ethanol affects food prices. You can even use a box of cereal as an example.
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taterhead122
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Jan 9, 2014 12:34:17 PM

It will never happen, makes it look like a viable renewable energy source.
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thekarmann
Rookie Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 9, 2014 11:44:08 AM

I'm with you bro!
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 8, 2014 9:22:02 AM

Hmmmm....

I don't remeber saying that ethanol was the ONLY thing that contributed to higher food prices, just that IT does...
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 8, 2014 4:58:40 AM

"That does not preclude ethanol from being responsible for higher food prices..."

But please prove it is ethanol. Did ethanol cause the wages of transportation operators to go up? The wages of warehouse employees? The cost of electricity and natural gas for heating and cooling? The cost of packaging? The taxes? Rental costs? No, of course not!
Maybe you believe these have no effect on the cost of anything, it is only ethanol that does?
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blk911
Champion Author Colorado Springs

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Message Posted: Jan 8, 2014 2:46:32 AM

Good Luck!!
Liberal DO GOODERS!!
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RS101
Champion Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jan 5, 2014 3:31:00 PM

ok
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jan 4, 2014 4:53:52 PM

"That does not preclude ethanol from being responsible for higher food prices..." Once again shocky is attempting to distort what is really happening with his propaganda... According to USDA, off farm costs including marketing, processing, wholesaling, distribution and retailing account for more than 80 cents of every food dollar spent in the United States.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 4, 2014 4:26:08 PM

"Inflation affects many things, and was around long before ethanol"

That does not preclude ethanol from being responsible for higher food prices...

" Speculators and market traders operate in foodstuffs, affecting prices up and down just as they do in oil"

Thaqt also does not preclude ethanol from being responsible for higher food prices...
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 3, 2014 5:51:21 PM

"You don't have to have a shortage for prices to rise."

Exactly:
- Inflation affects many things, and was around long before ethanol.
- Speculators and market traders operate in foodstuffs, affecting prices up and down just as they do in oil.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jan 3, 2014 10:59:16 AM

Search Google Images for "beef prices history" and click the first image.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jan 3, 2014 10:56:00 AM

The rising price of corn and other vegetables is much slower than the baseline inflation rate. In other words, in 1960 dollars, food is actually cheaper today than it was then. I wouldn't sound the alarm about that unless you want to appear silly.

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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 3, 2014 9:49:34 AM

"If that were true, there would be no surplus of a number of crops for export"

You don't have to have a shortage for prices to rise. Lower supply equates to higher prices...
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 3, 2014 8:32:51 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Ethanol contributes by raising both corn prices (which raises the prices of meat of animals that use feed corn) as well as increases the price of other crops as the land they could be raised on is squeezed out by increased corn and soy bean production that is used to make biofuels..."

I see you still continue to fail to understand the concept of distillers grains, or you do not acknowledge it on purpose. Which one is it?
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 3, 2014 7:49:30 AM

"Ethanol contributes by raising both corn prices (which raises the prices of meat of animals that use feed corn) as well as increases the price of other crops as the land they could be raised on is squeezed out by increased corn and soy bean production that is used to make biofuels..."

If that were true, there would be no surplus of a number of crops for export. The United States is a HUGE exporter of produce.
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reeneedan
Champion Author San Jose

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Message Posted: Jan 2, 2014 10:42:31 AM

Ethanol is just another form of welfare
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 2, 2014 10:23:17 AM

Shockjock1961 says "Cars are modified to run ethanol, which is why the EPA determined that cars made before 2001 are not compatible with E15..."

If you truely believe that there was a drastic design change between the years 2000 and 2001, please enlighten us.

and "Ethanol contributes by raising both corn prices"

If you compare ethanol production rates by year compared with corn prices, you will find absolutely no correlation between the two.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jan 2, 2014 9:50:00 AM

"Taxpayer subsidies for ethanol are over, unlike the billions Big Oil receives in subsidies and/or tax breaks from several levels of government"

Ethanol gets the same business tax breaks that any business gets, including the oil companies. Plus Corn farmers are indeed subsidized...

"Cars are only special built for ethanol if they are Flex Fuel"

Cars are modified to run ethanol, which is why the EPA determined that cars made before 2001 are not compatible with E15...

"The biggest factor in rising food prices in transportation"

Ethanol contributes by raising both corn prices (which raises the prices of meat of animals that use feed corn) as well as increases the price of other crops as the land they could be raised on is squeezed out by increased corn and soy bean production that is used to make biofuels...
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 2, 2014 8:54:00 AM

ShineRunner, do you work for Big Oil?
If not, how can you possibly believe some of the drivel in your post?

- Taxpayer subsidies for ethanol are over, unlike the billions Big Oil receives in subsidies and/or tax breaks from several levels of government.
- Cars are only special built for ethanol if they are Flex Fuel, which adds very little to the price. No changes are needed to run on E10, and I was running 1974 and 1976 cars on E10 in 1981.
- The biggest factor in rising food prices in transportation. Everything has gone up due to transportation. You don't believe ethanol causes wages to rise at the grocery store do you? You don't believe ethanol is responsible for the price of gold or silver, do you?
- Every inch of land is NOT being turned to corn, if it were, there would be shortages of other fruits and vegetables. The truth is, the US is a major exporter of a long list of agricultural products including corn!
- Do you know what crop insurance is?
Crop yield insurance protects against loss of crops to natural disasters. Ethanol has NOTHING to do with causing hail, drought, or floods.

Do you know what a ponzi scheme is?
It is a fraudulent investment operation.
It pays returns to its investors from existing capital or new capital paid by new investors, not profits, because the only lasting profits are skimmed by the operator who takes off with them. Operators of Ponzi schemes bring in new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent. The perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme. The operators take off with the funds when investors begin to suspect fraud or when second or third groups want to withdraw their capital. The only ones that get out with everything are the first ones to ask, they are refunded quickly to encourage others that the fund is legitimate.
Read about Bernie Madoff.
There is no resemblance to the ethanol industry.
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ShineRunner
Champion Author North Carolina

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Message Posted: Jan 2, 2014 7:29:18 AM

Ethanol is one of the biggest Ponzi schemes ever and is legal because the government implemented it. It has cost our nation millions if not billions in the 30 plus years it has been used!

It is tax payer subsidized from beginning to end, less fuel economy, higher cost for a new car that is especially built to run it and is causing food prices to increase. Every inch of land that can be put into production is being utilized, many acres not being worth the effort but with crop insurance it is still profitable.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 2, 2014 5:57:47 AM

Agreed the sands has been an ecological problem.
However, there is the ethical question of which is better, oil from the sands, or oil from countries that have used revenue to fund Al Quaeda and other terrorist organizations?
Plus, there is no question they have been working to cut down the damage, use less water, and remediate some of the land.

And my partial defence of the sands doesn't diminish my support for ethanol reduce dependence on oil as we progress to the next viable and more complete solution, which is, unfortunately many years away.
I have been a fan of E10 since my first use in 1981. If E15 becomes an option at our pumps, I will give it an honest trial. If E85 becomes an option at any of the stations I frequent, I will try working slowly up by alternating fills, E20, E25. I don't see that an option in the near future, though, even our prime supplier, Husky, seems to be in no hurry to introduce it at their stations.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 2, 2014 2:21:11 AM

Damage done to land? You got to be kidding. That oil project in Alberta is the greatest rape and pillage of land ever caused by man. And still it goes on.

Ethanol may not be perfect but it is squeaky clean compared to oil.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jan 1, 2014 8:46:46 PM

Let's hope they get rid of gasoline, enough damage has been done to the environment already!
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gopherthis
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jan 1, 2014 7:50:34 PM

Well lets hope they cut the mandate. Enough damage has been done to land so far.
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PathfinderSC
Champion Author South Carolina

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Message Posted: Jan 1, 2014 2:01:31 PM

Tell the EPA to cut Ethanol out.
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The_Waysiders
All-Star Author Georgia

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Message Posted: Jan 1, 2014 1:02:17 PM

I agree.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Dec 30, 2013 4:18:35 PM

About 2,000 acres/day have been converted from CRP (managed grassland) to active cropland since the dawn of the Renewable Fuel Standard. This is reversible; these same acres can be (and at current corn prices, will be) converted back to CRP land within a single 12 month cycle.

Now compare that to the 80,000 acres/day of rainforest we are estimated to lose each day (Scientific American), a profoundly irreversible reality.

If only the outrage over corn farming could be focused on a more meaningful target.
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Dec 30, 2013 12:06:03 PM

"No but if you decrease supply prices increase. More acres devoted to corn means fewer acres devoted to other crops which lowers the supply of these crops. Lower supply equals higher prices...."

There's no better cure for high prices than high prices.Current corn prices are a perfect example. Last year was the worst drought since the '30s reducing supply & increasing prices. US & world corn producers responded & today there is abundant supply of low priced corn.South America has reduced corn acreage & US will also this coming spring planting more of other crops than corn. There also no better cure for low prices than low prices. Low prices are not sustainable. You either need to curate new demand or reduce supply.So which crops are now over priced due to corn production?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 29, 2013 11:49:43 PM

"As far as planting corn instead of other foods, that assertion would be proved true if there were fruit and vegetable shortages"

You don't have to have a shortage to influence the price...

"Surpluses don't cause price increases"

No but if you decrease supply prices increase. More acres devoted to corn means fewer acres devoted to other crops which lowers the supply of these crops. Lower supply equals higher prices....
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Dec 29, 2013 6:56:04 PM

"And because farmers are planting corn instead of wheat, potatoes, etc is the reason that ethanol has such a dire effect on food prices..."

That is baloney. The biggest component in food price increases is the cost of transportation.
If motor fuel doubles in price the cost of a box of corn flakes would go up far more than if the price of corn doubles.
As far as planting corn instead of other foods, that assertion would be proved true if there were fruit and vegetable shortages. The US is a net exporter of a long list of commodities, including corn. There is no shortage due to corn planting, there is surplus in most crops. Surpluses don't cause price increases, transportation costs do.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 29, 2013 9:05:50 AM

"Farmers who didn't have a market for corn would plant something else, wheat, potatoes, pumpkins, Christmas trees, that's the thing, farmers have the smarts and the freedom to plant what they can sell"

That's partially true. However, much of the increased corn production comes from how the land is farmed, not what is grown on it. For the past several decades, the amount of land dedicated to corn has been in the 80 to 90 million acre range. But, production per acre has increased from 100 bpa to over 300 bpa in many corn-belt regions.

As demand for corn has increased, farmers and landowners have invested in land management practices that increase production, such as equipment for no till farming, tiled terraces, genetically engineered seed, and more recently, extensive investment in watershed management. It's not a static environment.

[Edited by: SoylentGrain at 12/29/2013 9:09:16 AM EST]
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Dec 29, 2013 8:56:09 AM

"And because farmers are planting corn instead of wheat, potatoes, etc is the reason that ethanol has such a dire effect on food prices..."

A myth pushed heavily by Big Oil and large food corporations.
The price of corn is drastically down compared to last year. Have you noticed a decrease in your grocery bill?
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vacinity
Rookie Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Dec 29, 2013 8:45:57 AM

they should!!
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 29, 2013 8:26:21 AM

"Farmers who didn't have a market for corn would plant something else, wheat, potatoes, pumpkins, Christmas trees, that's the thing, farmers have the smarts and the freedom to plant what they can sell"

And because farmers are planting corn instead of wheat, potatoes, etc is the reason that ethanol has such a dire effect on food prices...
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Dec 29, 2013 12:42:29 AM

"And ADM and the corn farmers curse you with every breath.."

You forgot to include rural communities or is this another example of your lack of understanding the astronomical benefit the ethanol industry has had to the rural economy.....
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2013 4:09:09 PM

"the corn farmers curse you with every breath"

Farmers who didn't have a market for corn would plant something else, wheat, potatoes, pumpkins, Christmas trees, that's the thing, farmers have the smarts and the freedom to plant what they can sell.
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hockeybabe25
Sophomore Author Allentown

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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2013 3:16:31 PM

no to ethanol
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 28, 2013 12:03:10 PM

"Saudi sheiks thank you for your efforts on their behalf"

And ADM and the corn farmers curse you with every breath...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 12/28/2013 12:02:46 PM EST]
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Dec 27, 2013 8:04:29 PM

"Reduce ethanol in gas."

Saudi sheiks thank you for your efforts on their behalf.
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kennyman
Champion Author Alberta

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Message Posted: Dec 27, 2013 8:00:58 PM

Reduce ethanol in gas.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Dec 25, 2013 5:34:16 AM

Actually it would be far better for the EPA to ban that cancer causing concoction they call gasoline.
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RS101
Champion Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Dec 24, 2013 6:49:54 AM

Really
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RS101
Champion Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2013 10:02:09 PM

Talk about a waste of a post.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2013 3:04:37 PM

I don't want particulate matter in my lungs unless I choose it to be there. You oil nuts ought to join the 21st century.
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ProtegeFL
Sophomore Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2013 12:11:22 PM

I don't want it in my gasoline unless I choose it to be there.You shills can save it.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2013 6:55:57 PM

Hello Darwin Finch
It's amazing the lack of thought of us humans.
What did he mean by 50% water?

Actually all plants, are made by consuming about 50% water and about 50% CO2 as input. The missing O2 is where we get our atmospheric Oxygen.

So ethanol has one O. and aliphatic hydrocarbons have no O.

sugars do have a lot of water. and when burned, and re-combined with oxygen. the mix is 50% water and 50%Co2.
Sucrose is C12-H22-O11. That is 11 water molecules per molecule of sucrose.
I hope he hasn't attempted to add sugar to his gas tank.
A little knowledge is dangerous.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2013 5:39:20 PM

Darwin, I needed a good laugh.

Ethanol is a grass roots effort, as rumbleseat's facts point to the serious need for the clean fuel. I know of a few other people who are not in any way paid by ethanol, corn, or ag that went and spoke on their own accord for ethanol. At their own expense. If I had the time I would have as well as I am not affiliated with ethanol, corn, or ag.

Says a lot.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 12/10/2013 5:40:16 PM EST]
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