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Author Topic: Time to wake up and realize you are being played.... Back to Topics
Hannie59

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Appleton

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Message Posted: Nov 12, 2013 9:20:54 PM

Funny, the American Petroleum Institute bullies the AP for a fake "story" just as gas is at it's lowest in quite some time, and just as E-85 had it's best year in sales ever, with FFV usage at an all time high. Do a fact check they got ALOT wrong. Not coincidentally either.

Always an excuse to raise prices.... "Refining problems" "world events" "speculation"... ahhh but here comes ethanol. A clean fuel that can go in many cars... keeping petroleum down as it's grip loosens on you and society and BAM a crock from the AP and API.

Horse hockey from the petroleum industry, playing the American Consumer. I hope you enjoy it.

Better yet, I hope you use ethanol as much as possible and show them they can't get away with it any more.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 11/12/2013 9:23:54 PM EST]
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 1:18:06 AM

"Take a look at their financials in 2011. Now we subsidize them in other ways."

I did. In 2011 ADM paid over half a billion dollars in income tax and received ZERO in tax credits.

I stand corrected on the 2004 Jobs Creation Act. It was page 43, not 45, that details the law encompassing VEETC.

AMERICAN JOBS CREATION ACT OF 2004

This was the major big dollar legislation that people called an "ethanol subsidy". What the law did was reduce the tax burden oil companies paid on "road tax". At the end of a quarter, the gasoline retailer/wholesaler got credit against ALL fuel tax paid (ethanol, diesel, gasoline). Several things could be done with that money: keep it and pay tax on it, invest in capital equipment and still pay tax on it, lower the price of fuel, ie hire more people. But, nowhere in that legislation does any significant amount of money go to a company like ADM.
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nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 1:05:15 AM

Take a look at their financials in 2011. Now we subsidize them in other ways.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 12:28:07 AM

"The VEETC provided ADM with about half of the $6B per year as well, through 2011."

That's a complete fabrication. Again, look at the ADM financials I linked to and the 2004 Jobs Creation Act, on or about page 45. The tax incentives went to oil companies, not to ADM. As far as the other bills, ADM would have seen very little if any of that.

"Why would we give the money to ADM instead of the farmers?"

"We" didn't give money to ADM. And farmers and landowners receive direct, real, cash in the bank subsidies. But, they are the inverse of market demand. The greater the market demand, the less paid in subsidies. Both ADM and the oil companies did not receive any major direct ethanol subsidies, if at all.

" And what do you believe the current breakeven point is for corn? "

It doesn't make any difference what the break even point is. It's across the board. The person who paid $170 per acre for land and fertilizes with manure from a hog confinement unit has a cost of production that is a fraction of the person who paid $17,000 and acre and uses commercial fertilizer. The range could be hundreds of dollars different per acre. Furthermore, farming is not a January to December business. It is a business that spans decades and includes years of gains and losses. The USDA number you cite is based on current land values and commercial fertilization. In the real world there is no one magic number. It's how a person operates his, her, or their business. Some will make money this year. Some will not.


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nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 10:34:26 PM

no, the Energy Policy Act of 2005, the Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008, and the Energy Improvement and Extension Act of 2008 provided the subsidies direct to ADM. The VEETC provided ADM with about half of the $6B per year as well, through 2011.

Why would we give the money to ADM instead of the farmers? And what do you believe the current breakeven point is for corn?
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 6:02:45 PM

"They are down to only..... 43% of the us ethanol production at the moment. And they are the largest recipient of about $4B in subsidies from 3 acts passed in 2005 and 2008 (thank dubya). "

Your "source of data" makes no reference to ADM receiving $4 billion. What you are referring to is the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (VEETC) in the 2004 Jobs Creation Act. That was a tax credit that went to oil companies, not ADM. It was a tax credit on ALL FUEL for retailers who sold ethanol fuel. My source is the bill itself, on or about page 45.

"Please at least provide a source of data once in a while. I do."

Obviously, you don't, based on your last reference.

And to support my comments above, please see my last link to the ADM financials. ADM is a publically traded company. These numbers have to be truthful. The line that says $0 tax credits, actually means $0 tax credits. So the actual law you were referring to says ADM receives no tax credits and their financial statements say ADM received no tax credits. What more do you need?



[Edited by: SoylentGrain at 10/16/2014 6:05:18 PM EST]
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nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 4:37:16 PM

Yep Soylent. They are down to only..... 43% of the us ethanol production at the moment. And they are the largest recipient of about $4B in subsidies from 3 acts passed in 2005 and 2008 (thank dubya). So my first guess was off by a billion - we give them 2 billion a year.

That liberal forbes magazine

Please at least provide a source of data once in a while. I do.

[Edited by: nru at 10/16/2014 4:40:17 PM EST]
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 1:05:44 PM

Thas BS. ADM is a 90 billion dollar company. While they do produce ethanol, they have a minority share in the ethanol market.

ADM Cash Flow

Exactly, how are you responsible for ADM profits?

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nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 11:45:37 AM

Soylent - the reason ADM is making profits is that you and I (I am guessing that you pay taxes) are subsidizing them. We have been giving them about a billion dollars a year to keep us running on ethanol
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 10:44:45 AM

"That's the excuse now. But, Californian has always had some of the highest fuel prices in the country. What was the excuse before ethanol?"

Lets see, California has the highest fuel taxes in the country. They have fuel standards that are above even the most stringent ones used by the EPA, which means that they have virtually no connectivity to any other markets for fuel. In other words to sell gas in California you have to make it in California. Can't bring it in from anywhere else. As a result refiners have to operate in a very high tax environment to produce a very expensive fuel and then tack on the highest fuel taxes in the nation at the pump!

Yeah, sure that is all the fault of the oil companies and ethanol!

When looking for the high gas prices in California look no further than your friends in Sacremento.

The Exxon on the corner by my house is selling gas for $2.48 a gallon if you pay cash. Had I needed gas this morning I could have filled up there on the way to work. Probably stop by on my way home tonight.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 10:02:37 AM

"They are both industries - ADM versus the sisters. Farmers are losing their shorts on corn this year, while ADM rakes in huge profits "

You assume farmers are losing money on corn. While the price is low, the volume of corn is at record production levels. Things work out. Also, I think it's a good thing that a US corporation is making "huge profits." This is just my opinion, I have always thought it better to have companies making money, , paying taxes, investing capital, employing people, and writing paychecks vs. putting people on the streets.
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nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 8:46:54 AM

They are both industries - ADM versus the sisters. Farmers are losing their shorts on corn this year, while ADM rakes in huge profits
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Tucsonhomes
Champion Author Tucson

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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2014 7:56:09 PM

I hope it all goes down in price
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 23, 2014 1:33:17 PM

"Because of the E-10m Mandate, Gas is still over $4.00 in California in most places."

That's the excuse now. But, Californian has always had some of the highest fuel prices in the country. What was the excuse before ethanol?
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Aug 23, 2014 12:40:31 PM

Because of the E-10m Mandate, Gas is still over $4.00 in California in most places.
The Chevron Station about 1 mile from my home is 4.29 for reg, 4.39 for mid, and 4.49 for prem.

They must raise prices in the west because of the mandate to blend ethanol; and its supply is limited by the limited amount of ethanol that gets into the state. Without the mandate we would be back to the good old days when the supply was only limited by refinery shut downs. Now they can't even get running at capacity.

My take is that the oil companies like this arrangement. It can't be fixed and they can sit back an enjoy the margins.

We are being played it seems. Both win, Big Oil and Bid Corn.

[Edited by: borsht at 8/23/2014 12:44:37 PM EST]
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ricebike
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Aug 23, 2014 12:58:13 AM

dunno about your area but i'm seeing under $3.00 per gallon of E10

that was in 2011
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Aug 19, 2014 3:22:08 AM

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/08/11/russia-ships-coal-to-america-despite-sanctions/?ss=energy

The Doric Victory, a huge transport ship the length of two football fields, just sailed 4,000 miles to deliver over 40,000 tons of Russian coal to the Schiller Station coal-fired power plant in New Hampshire.
railroad bottlenecks and other transportation difficulties, due to:
- increase in oil and ethanol transport by rail,
- sudden and unexpected increases in electricity demand from unusually cold weather,
- oversupply of global coal and decreased coal prices outside the U.S.,While Obama is screwing our coal industry. The EPA is forcing the rails to carry ethanol all over the country.

And they used to joke in England about carrying coal to new Castle.

The U.S. has the largest supply of coal in the world.
So now, the easiest way to get coal to New Hampshire is to ship it From Russia,

wow and we are attempting to place economic sanctions upon Russia. Government is growing stupider every day.


[Edited by: borsht at 8/19/2014 3:24:48 AM EST]
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badbobKY
All-Star Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Aug 16, 2014 11:17:25 AM

now informed
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 15, 2014 8:49:53 AM

"The federal mandate led to a rapid expansion of corn production, which consumed land farmers had set aside for conservation and damaged habitat."

That's nonsense. The FSA and EPA will not allow farming on environmentally sensitive land. That would be a minimum $10,000 and $500 a day fine for farming on environmentally sensitive land.

"Growers made increasing use of fertilizers that seeped into the water supply, creating environmental hazards that required costly cleanup."

More babble. fertilizer administration is controlled and monitored by the EPA.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Aug 14, 2014 4:33:36 PM

I agree with that headline statement. Not the text of the post.

We are being played by the ethanol producers.

The ethanol mandate is loaded with problems. A big one, is that it limits the supply of gasoline in the west and especially California, Since essentially all the gasoline sold for automobiles is 10% ethanol by mandate and insufficient ethanol is arriving for blending.

Other problems cited:http://www.ocregister.com/articles/ethanol-594005-corn-mandate.html

"But the rush to corn ethanol was a triumph of special-interest politics over practical policy. Corn ethanol has hardly been an environmental boon to the nation, as an Associated Press report last month revealed. The federal mandate led to a rapid expansion of corn production, which consumed land farmers had set aside for conservation and damaged habitat. Growers made increasing use of fertilizers that seeped into the water supply, creating environmental hazards that required costly cleanup. And ethanol in gasoline can actually add to air pollution under certain weather patterns – such as those often found in Southern California, which already struggles to meet clean-air standards."

[Edited by: borsht at 8/14/2014 4:36:10 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2014 2:12:52 PM

"Bring on the E100". "E-85 had it's best year in sales ever".

Okay, we can't deliver 10% ethanol blends year round to all US markets and had to stop sales of fuel in many areas of the nation this winter for a lack of ethanol and we are supposed to get to 100% ethanol? Please explain.

E-85 sales had it's best year and yet it still amounted to less that 1/2 of a percent of total fuel sales in America. I ask again where is all the ethanol supposed to come from and better yet get to all the places where fuel is needed if it cannot even manage to reliably provide 10% of the nations fuel today?

Please explain.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2014 1:39:40 PM

Are Ethanol Mandates and RIN’s a new Enron?
Some excerps from w WSJ article; Are we being scammed by the ethanol producers?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304512504579491750362682742

Every gallon of ethanol is assigned a 38-digit "renewable identification number," or RIN, which oil refiners, blenders and importers can buy or trade to comply with the quotas. Because the EPA registers RIN generators but conducts no due diligence about their legitimacy, crooks have discovered that they can sell fake RINs that are unconnected to an underlying batch of ethanol.

In January two Las Vegas men were indicted by federal prosecutors on 57 wire fraud, conspiracy, money laundering and other counts in a $37 million scheme. They claimed to be importing Canadian biodiesel made from vegetable oil that never existed. Last September the feds broke up an Indiana ring that stole $100 million and that the U.S. attorney called "the largest tax and securities fraud scheme in Indiana history." The list of accused is long.

In January 2013, the EPA moved to create a quality control program, but not out of concern for the refiners that must pass the costs of these thefts on to consumers at the pump. The EPA maintains a "buyer beware" rule that punishes the victims of RIN fraud with fines even if they acted in good faith.
Rather, the EPA wants to prop up the larger multibillion-dollar RINs industry. As the agency explained in the Federal Register, fraud was undermining the ethanol mandate—some gallons were going unsold—and to defend their business refiners "limit their RIN-related business relationships to those parties that they are confident are generating valid RINs."
The EPA is worried this harms smaller producers.
In a memo to the White House, the National Biodiesel Board (the companion of the corn ethanol lobby) writes that the quality program will lead to "an overall reduction in mandated volumes" and "impose substantial burdens on not-at-fault producers." In other words, Big Ethanol thinks criminal scammers are a price worth paying so the government-backed industry can continue to profit.

[Edited by: borsht at 7/22/2014 1:40:24 PM EST]
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GLM4205
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2013 3:03:45 PM

And now the EPA is proposing less ethanol usage.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2013 12:29:12 PM

TomB2, no coincidence there.
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TomB2
Champion Author St. Louis

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Message Posted: Nov 16, 2013 11:35:20 AM

And now the EPA is proposing less ethanol useage.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Nov 14, 2013 5:36:08 AM

"No matter what anyone says, I don't like ethanol, never did, never will."

So? I don't like feta cheese!
But my car runs better on E10 than on feta cheese, and my engine runs cleaner on E10 than feta, and the engine and fuel system are a lot cleaner on E10 than E0.
And I don't try to stop you or anybody from eating feta.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2013 10:12:29 AM

"No matter what anyone says, I don't like ethanol, never did, never will."

This is the "No vegetables, just Pizza Rolls for supper" mentality. People with this mentality become diabetic and unhappy, for lack of foresight and teachability.
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Maintroll
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2013 10:07:37 AM

No matter what anyone says, I don't like ethanol, never did, never will.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2013 9:22:08 AM

Funny that agriculture has become the enemy.
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ggg452
Champion Author Manitoba

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2013 9:20:46 AM

The consuming public is always being played....but we are responsible for being played too...get informed.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Nov 13, 2013 2:33:46 AM

Bring on the E100.
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