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Author Topic: Review and Evaluation of Studies on the Use of E15 in Light - Duty Vehicles Back to Topics
tropicalmn

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2013 12:20:59 PM

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory conclusion from our analysis is that the data in the 33 unique research studies reviewed here do not show meaningful differences between E15 and E10 in any performance category.

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) is the U.S. Department of Energy's primary national laboratory for renewable energy and energy efficiency research and development.NREL reviewed and evaluate research conducted to date applicable to the effects of E15 on model year 2001 & newer vehicles.
NREL states that "Over two hundred million vehicles on the road today regularly use E10 without experiencing systemic fuel related component or engine failures."
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: May 17, 2014 2:51:21 AM

borsht, your study means absolutely nothing. And the reason is very simple, there are other components of gasoline that is far worse than ethanol.

Case closed.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: May 16, 2014 10:55:37 PM

Interesting report;
One of the interesting points is that changes in elastomers were less pronounced comparing E15 to E10; that the effect in going from E0 to E10.Translation: E10 is not much worse than E15.
Bottom line, Ethanol is problematic. whether E10 0r E15, when compared to E0.

"Elastomers and plastics showed some measurable effects from exposure to gasoline hydrocarbons with increasing ethanol content. The largest changes in material properties typically occurred between 0 and 10 volume percent ethanol; however, differences between materials were far more significant than differences between fuels. Fluorelastomers (generally approved for FFVs) saw the best retention of baseline properties with all levels of ethanol.
o A detailed study conducted by ORNL showed differences in swell between E10 and E17 (a surrogate for E15) to be less than 15% in all cases, and less than 5% if silicone rubber, styrene-butadiene rubber, and polyurethane are excluded.
o In a second study of a large group of elastomers by MnCAR only epichlorohydrin ethylene oxide copolymer swelled to a significantly greater extent in Aggressive TF20 than in Aggressive TF10.
? The reported results suggest that elastomers and plastics rejected for material compatibility reasons for use with E15 would likely be considered unacceptable for use with E10."
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: May 3, 2014 6:00:32 PM

Rich_pa asks "Yea, but what hidden problems are there?"
None that I've ever encountered and I've been using much higher ethanol content in non-FFVs for about 5 years now.
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Rich_pa
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: May 3, 2014 9:57:10 AM

Yea, but what hidden problems are there?
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tklsr
All-Star Author Akron

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Message Posted: May 2, 2014 8:48:38 PM

so?
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PrototypeDevil
Champion Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: May 2, 2014 10:51:40 AM

k
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 9:43:22 AM

I haven't seen any meaningful difference in any performance category with any ethanol blend. I've used over 65% ethanol in a 2000 Ford Windstar and over 40% ethanol in a 2003 Honda CRV.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 13, 2013 1:13:24 PM

HotRod10 wrote: "Yeah, crzysiek, you're the only one that knows anything, and I know nothing and Alexi7 is a liar. I hope you and your ego are very happy together."

Another failure by HotRod10. What a surprise.
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Dec 13, 2013 11:05:59 AM

Yeah, crzysiek, you're the only one that knows anything, and I know nothing and Alexi7 is a liar. I hope you and your ego are very happy together.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 13, 2013 10:58:32 AM

Except you, HotRod10, are trying to indicate that fuel is changing the coil dwell time on all the coils. How many times have you been wrong in this thread alone? Plenty.

Please tell me how many cars are using this aftermarket coil, from the link you provided, straight from factory?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 12/13/2013 11:03:43 AM EST]
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Dec 13, 2013 10:04:05 AM

"My car ECU has zero control over dwell time. There is a reason why the are called smart (or dummy) coils. The dwell time is set by stock igniter and cannot be changed"

Then you indeed have a very "dumb" smart coil. This one, for instance, lists (among other specs):

Base Dwell: 3.0 mS
Max Continuous Dwell: 9 mS but don’t exceed 40% duty cycle
Max Intermittent Dwell: 80% duty cycle, 5 seconds maximum

So on some even "smart" coils, the dwell is adjustable. The warning "don’t exceed 40% duty cycle" would indicate that I was correct about increased dwell being hard on the coil.

"you wrote...bunch of garbage that you believe is an explanation."

Once again, just because it's over your head, doesn't make it false.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2013 7:06:47 PM

HotRod10 wrote: "I was making a scientific explanation in response to a question about E85 (not E35, btw) causing burnout of a coil."

No you did not. What you wrote is not an explanation, but rather bunch of garbage that you believe is an explanation. You fail again.

HotRod10 wrote: "You don't know that, unless your car is old enough that it has points, and you set them yourself. If your car has an ECM, you don't have a clue what adjustments it's making."

Wrong again. My car ECU has zero control over dwell time. There is a reason why the are called smart (or dummy) coils. The dwell time is set by stock igniter and cannot be changed (even by an aftermarket ECU).

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 12/12/2013 7:06:28 PM EST]
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2013 5:25:53 PM

"So what happens if my engine starts immediately as it always do, even with E35 in the gas tank?"

I never made any claims that it would kill your car (I don't even know what car you have). If you haven't had problems, good for you. I was making a scientific explanation in response to a question about E85 (not E35, btw) causing burnout of a coil. Just because you don't understand how something works, doesn't make it wrong, it only shows your ignorance of the subject.

"At the same the dwell time did not change one bit"

You don't know that, unless your car is old enough that it has points, and you set them yourself. If your car has an ECM, you don't have a clue what adjustments it's making.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2013 5:17:05 PM

"As carbon builds up, the insulation resistance of the spark plug drops and the voltage generated by the ignition coil is reduced. When the generated voltage becomes lower than the required voltage of a spark plug (the voltage needed to cause sparks at the spark gap), sparking is suppressed and mis-firing occurs."

Spark Plug Analysis

HotRod10, Please educate yourself on how the spark plug works and what will cause the changed resistance.

Would you like to tackle coil dwell time next?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 12/12/2013 5:16:52 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2013 5:01:49 PM

HotRod10 wrote: "No, I'm not wrong, I just know more about electricity and engines than you."

Wrong, again.

HotRod10 wrote: "If the fuel doesn't vaporize well and the engine doesn't start immediately, then the resistance is higher at the spark plug, which is detrimental to the fine-wire winding in the coil."

So what happens if my engine starts immediately as it always do, even with E35 in the gas tank? At the same the dwell time did not change one bit, and it will not change based on the fuel used.

Yes, indeed you are wrong.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2013 4:22:32 PM

I have also noticed increased wear & tear on my floormats due to using ethanol blends. Darn dirty filthy stuff!
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2013 3:55:59 PM

"The spark advancement will not effect to coil life. Fuel does not control the dwell time. Fuel does not control the spark plug resistance. You are simply wrong."

No, I'm not wrong, I just know more about electricity and engines than you. I'll attempt to explain it; the conditions inside the cylinder, including the amount of vaporized fuel and oxygen and the temperature, will affect the amount of resistance there is across the spark gap. If the fuel doesn't vaporize well and the engine doesn't start immediately, then the resistance is higher at the spark plug, which is detrimental to the fine-wire winding in the coil.

An increase in resistance also occurs when the spark plug fires before the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder is fully compressed, i.e. when the spark is advanced significantly before TDC, as it needs to be for ethanol to burn efficiently.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Dec 12, 2013 2:54:06 PM

HotRod10 wrote: "The spark advancement, increased dwell time, and increased resistance at the spark plug, all increase the demands on the coil and the electrical resistance at the coil, leading to premature failure if the coil is not built for it." in regards to burning Ethanol.

The spark advancement will not effect to coil life. Fuel does not control the dwell time. Fuel does not control the spark plug resistance. You are simply wrong.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 12/12/2013 2:59:29 PM EST]
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Dec 11, 2013 2:11:57 PM

I don't know about Acura coils, in particular; I was just explaining how E-85 is harder on ignition coils than gasoline, in general.
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2013 11:31:33 AM

Thanks, HotRod10. I haven't had to replace mine yet. Does Acura use a poorer qualify coil than other car manufacturers?
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HotRod10
Champion Author Wyoming

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Message Posted: Dec 10, 2013 11:03:08 AM

"Can you explain how E-85 burned up an electrical component of your Acura?"

"Alcohol burns at a much more even rate. It is harder to ignite and requires more time to completely vaporize and burn." Source

The spark advancement, increased dwell time, and increased resistance at the spark plug, all increase the demands on the coil and the electrical resistance at the coil, leading to premature failure if the coil is not built for it.
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WEB0153
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 7:47:45 PM

ok
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 7:41:51 PM

Alexi7, it's good to hear that you have an open mind about trying high ethanol blends in your non-FFVs. Can you explain how E-85 burned up an electrical component of your Acura?
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Alexi7
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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 7:17:11 PM

I've just started using E-15. E-85 burned up the ignition coils in the '99 Acura TL. Our '87 Town Car and '90 GMC Sierra don't handle E-85 well, but E-15 runs fine. I'll try the stronger ethanol blends-E-20,30,50 and 60 later on. I've run E-15 in my '97 Lexus LS400 with no issues.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Dec 9, 2013 10:46:34 AM

I have used over 65% ethanol in my 2000 Ford Windstar and over 40% ethanol in my 2003 Honda CRV with no ethanol related performance or maintenance problems.
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namzza6310
Champion Author Milwaukee

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2013 12:13:26 PM

alot of vehicles should be able to run e15 without issue.
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rumbleseat
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2013 6:36:49 PM

"Where are the tests like this for pre-2001 vehicles?"

Since E15 has not been touted as a replacement for E10, it doesn't matter, anybody who puts E15 in an older vehicle will be doing so of their own free will, just as anybody who puts E85 in a non-flex vehicle does so of their own free will.
Of course, those of us that put E10 in 1974 and 1976 vehicles with no problem know full well the sky is not going to fall and crush vehicles, scattering them about the countryside, any more than it did in the past.
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HotRod10
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2013 5:52:18 PM

This isn't anything new, just compiling info from some earlier studies. Where are the tests like this for pre-2001 vehicles? Out of the 33 studies compiled, none used vehicles older than 2001. Seems the RFA and other ethanol proponents don't want to try these kinds of tests with older vehicles.

One thing conspicuously missing from the report: Fuel efficiency/mileage comparisons.

The emissions results were interesting - no difference in emissions between E10 and E20.


[Edited by: HotRod10 at 10/15/2013 5:57:07 PM EST]
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