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Author Topic: "Regular" and "Premium" ... obsolete terminology? Back to Topics
darwinfinch

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Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2013 9:51:23 AM

One of the reasons I haven't submitted gas prices to GB is that the station I typically fill up at has blender pumps, with E0 (87 octane), E10 (87 octane), E20, E30, and E85 all available. These fuels aren't really even defined as "Regular" and "Premium" anymore, which is what GB asks for in their data model. GB also does not ask for ethanol blends of any kind, which is a little weird considering the huge changes we are seeing in the way fuels are blended, what's available at the pump, etc. I know GB sells this data for a profit and the model is probably already well established/inflexible, but I would suggest thinking ahead toward a change in definitions down the road. If your system effectively blocks anyone from entering data for ethanol blends, then how accurate is it? Right now I have data for the 5 fuels available where I filled up this morning but the data isn't compatible with GasBuddy's model.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Nov 29, 2013 11:42:37 AM

"MPG loss of 10% when using E10"

So basically you're saying the ethanol has 0 energy in it.

Not a credible "report".
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cupboy
Champion Author Salt Lake City

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Message Posted: Nov 28, 2013 8:13:07 PM

re: "As you can see, e10 is almost 40 cents cheaper per gallon. That's a 10.7% savings. "

That's interesting. It seems to match up with the reported MPG loss of 10% when using E10. So, you may think you're paying more when buying E0 but it's really the same price.

[Edited by: cupboy at 11/28/2013 8:13:27 PM EST]
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Nov 20, 2013 10:02:17 AM

There is a demographic of consumers out there who want to know the local/national price averages for ethanol blends. Currently, Gas Buddy does not collect or offer that data.

Ignoring the modern changes in ethanol blending may be convenient to the Gas Buddy data model, but it doesn't reflect consumer interest. It could be a risky strategy to ignore these developments in the fuel supply.
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n0cf
Sophomore Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2013 10:36:23 PM

Here in Iowa (just like SD, NE, ND) - I'd settle for people not posting E10/87 prices as mid-grade!
It is a left-over of years of the cheap stuff here in corn-land being 89-90 octane gasahol/E10 -- so yes, it was sold as "Super" or "Unleaded Plus" and correctly reported as mid.
Since September most stations are still selling "Super" or "Plus" even though it is now 87 octane E10. Many stations still sell clear unleaded 87 ($0.30 extra is currently common). Only Quik Star is honest and labelled their pumps "Unleaded with Ethanol" and replaced the 89 octane sticker with a yellow "87 Octane E10" sticker. BP, Conoco, some others are only selling e10/87 - no clear 87 - so they relabeled correctly as regular (and are the only stations selling a true "mid" per GasBuddy definition of 89 octane).
What a mess - you see stations in my area from $2.899 - $3.259 for regular, but you are really looking at two very different products (I argue clear/E0 should only be reported in the comment field - as it is a boutique fuel like E15-E85).
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 19, 2013 6:30:00 PM

I assume, darwinfinch, that wherever it is that you live/drive (and it's not in a location known as Gasbuddy, as shown in your profile), there are other stations that see "regular" or "premium" or "diesel" fuel, and not just gas stations selling only E0, E20, E30, and E85.

Couldn't you post gas prices for blends sold at stations other than that one station? Surely if you're going to help your fellow members with knowledge, information and opinion, things that might not be seen by your local members who don't access the discussion threads, gas prices posted on the home page will help them be more knowledgeable shoppers. But that's just a suggestion.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2013 5:26:57 PM

Gas_Buddy, I'd be happy to post gas prices, but as stated, the Regular/Mid/Premium (87/89/91) categorization doesn't work here.

Search Google Images for "gas pump e20 e30" to see what I see.

Two of the options at my local Sinclair station used to be 87 and 89. The 87 was E0 (regular) and the 89 was E10 (mid-grade). The E20-E85 are not labeled by octane, and there is no labeled 91 octane (premium). To further complicate things, in my state (SD), they are now shipping 84 to blend with ethanol, which means the mid-grade E10 is now 87, the same as the E0. In effect, you're getting a better oxygenate with the E10, but they're blending their crappy 84 octane gasoline to arrive at a total 87 octane. As you might imagine, this means people get confused about what's good for their car, and what is "mid-grade" now depends on your view of ethanol.

I see similar labels in other states where ethanol is blended in various quantities.
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Nov 18, 2013 3:45:24 PM

darwinfinch:

First, because E-10 fuel is the new "standard" across the United States, it makes sense to post the prices for E-10 as regular and for premium.

That said, you're saying that your local gas station (or are you saying that many or multiple gas stations) sells non-ethanol gas (E-0) in 87 octane only (it doesn't sell other non-ethanol gas at the regular or premium (generally 89 and 91) octane levels?
And your local gas station (or gas stations) sell E-20, and E-30 at only the "regular" (i.e., 87 octane) level? The station (stations) doesn't sell any mid-grade or premium octane level fuels?

Sorry for being naive, but where is this (these) gas station? I ask because your Gas Buddy profile identifier indicates "Gasbuddy" as your local Gas Buddy area, and doesn't indicate that you're from a specific location or area. Maybe the question is, what gas station is this? Or what gas stations are you talking about? They're not regular, run-of-the-mill gas stations such as your local Chevron, Exxon, BP gas stations, are they?

The bottom line, to me, is that across the United States E-10 is the standard fuel available to customers at the primary gas pump; that's the fuel for which the price should be posted, regardless of whether it's for 87 octane (regular), 89 (mid-grade) or 91 (premium). By posting prices for those fuels you're helping your local Gas Buddy members be more knowledgeable about prices at the pump, wherever you're posting for.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2013 9:17:39 PM

Sneakers55, I'm talking about the "Regular" and "Premium" labels. Are you?
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Sneakers55
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2013 6:54:02 PM

On Oct 13, 2013 10:58:35 AM, SilverStreaker wrote:

>darwinfinch, those labels are for the seller, not the buyer
>and refer to financial terminology.

Wrong. The labels are defined by ASTM D 4814 and have everything to do with the anti-knock index of the fuel.

If you are not at high altitudes, regular is 87 AKI, midgrade is 89 AKI, and premium is 91 AKI or higher.

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Sneakers55
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Nov 15, 2013 4:43:49 PM

IMHO, you report the cheapest 87 octane as "regular" and don't report any higher ethanol blends than E-10 because they're not gasoline.
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Floridaman2013
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2013 7:56:50 AM

I have a 2004 Nitro 288 Sort F/S with a Mercury 200 HP 3.0L V6, EFI, 2 stroke and that puppy has been running great since new with all mixes of gas, in salt water and fresh water, all kinds of weather. Ethanol has never done any harm to any component so far and gets great fuel mileage too boot.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2013 9:50:12 AM

The station I frequent has two hoses: 1 for E0/E10 and another for E20/E30/E85. Pretty simple considering most pumps already have 2 hoses.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2013 6:43:32 PM

borsht wrote: "It appears that the EPA has ruled on a minimum ‘purchase’ of 4 gallons of fuel from blender pumps."

It appears that there is NOT any minimum at the blander pump with a dedicated hose/nozzle.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2013 3:30:03 PM

Hello krzysiek_ck;
Incidentally, I posted the URL to the article.

It appears that the EPA has ruled on a minimum ‘purchase’ of 4 gallons of fuel from blender pumps.
It’s fairly straight forward to write code that charges a minimum purchase price.
No one is forcing you to take delivery on four gallons.
I don’t think many people will make the mistake twice, when they drive their motorcycle up to a blender and see that they get charged for 4 gallons and can only take two gallons.
Thus they will be protected against getting too much ethanol in their bikes.
If we are going to have the EPA running the show, look for a lot more programming features in our lives.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2013 9:53:09 AM

From the article that borsht failed to link to. Here is the link for you - EPA requiring 4-gallon minimum purchase at E15 ethanol blender pumps

"EPA requires that retail stations that own or operate blender pumps either dispense E15 from a dedicated hose and nozzle if able or, in the case of E15 and E10 being dispensed from the same hose, require that at least four gallons of fuel be purchased to prevent vehicles and engines with smaller fuel tanks from being exposed to gasoline-ethanol blended fuels containing greater than 10 vol% ethanol."

How am I forced, borsht, to purchase at least 4 gallons of fuels from the blender pump that has a dedicated hose/nozzle?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 10/14/2013 9:55:30 AM EST]
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2013 5:35:54 PM

Another problem with blender pumps is that THE EPA evidently requires purchase of a minimum of 4 gallons, so that the 10% llimit of ethanol is not exceeded.
To buy E15 or greater from blender pumps requires a minimum 4 gallon purchase or from a dedicated pump.
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/08/13/epa-requiring-4-gallon-minimum-purchase-of-e15-fuel/



[Edited by: borsht at 10/13/2013 5:36:50 PM EST]
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2013 5:21:33 PM

If a poll would be taken, I suspect the majority would opt for 'Regular, Midgrade, premium and diesel'.

The Alpha numerical would make the geek nerds happy, but I suspect most of the spotters want to keep it simple, or they will quit posting!

What is the primary purpose of gas buddy? I thought it was to find the lowest cost gas in a simple efficient way.
If they want to add bells and whistles, they must keep it simple, or us common folks will fade away.

A station near me sells 12 different blends all at different pumps. The people who want 100+ octane or E0 or E85 already know about this station.
Can you imagine the map view having all 12 prices listed?



[Edited by: borsht at 10/13/2013 5:28:30 PM EST]
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2013 3:33:19 PM

Actually Snowmobiles, high performance boat motors and motorcycles perform even better on ethanol fuels. Higher ethanol blends in properly tuned motors produce more horsepower and have a flatter torque curve.
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ggg452
Champion Author Manitoba

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2013 12:56:45 PM

Snowmobiles, high performance boat motors and motorcycles don't handle the added alcohol well.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2013 11:58:35 AM

darwinfinch, those labels are for the seller, not the buyer and refer to financial terminology.
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forresj
Champion Author Wilmington

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2013 11:21:59 AM

Thanks Darwin for the clarification. I just knew it was more BS from the oil companies.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Oct 13, 2013 6:16:32 AM

The only real premium out there is E85.
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CORNHICK
All-Star Author Omaha

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Message Posted: Oct 12, 2013 11:32:28 PM

I heard e30 has the best blend for gas mileage somehow the fuel is burned more completely at this blend level
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CactusBobs
Champion Author Arizona

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Message Posted: Oct 12, 2013 10:51:22 PM

you trust blender pumps ?
I would never buy mid grade for just this reason , it's blended in the pump between two grades 87 and 92 , our pumps where installed in 1987 , adjusted at the factory and sealed , even the repair guy has no idea if there correct and can only switch out the unit if we think it's way off . the state only checks to see if 5 gals is really 5 gals . we know our 87 is 87 and our 92 is 92 its checked at the refinery but our 89? its never been checked! in our case i think we are giving away more 92 than we need to in our 89, pushing our mid grade higher

so enjoy your blended gasoline
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2013 4:13:27 PM

I'm sure it depends on the location, but around here it's complete BS.

This morning:

e85 2.799
e30 2.999
e20 3.039
e10 3.079
e0 3.449

Both e10 and e0 are 87 octane.

As you can see, e10 is almost 40 cents cheaper per gallon. That's a 10.7% savings.
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forresj
Champion Author Wilmington

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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2013 11:52:09 AM

I'm curious since all the gas stations where I live only have ethanol blended gasoline, maybe you can answer simple a question.

Is E0 cheaper or more expensive than E10 for example with "87 grade" gasoline. Oil companies have been lobbying that ethanol blended gasoline is more expensive than unblended gasoline. I'm wondering if it's true or if it's more BS from the oil companies.
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