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Author Topic: E85 SHORTAGE IN PENSACOLA, FLORIDA Back to Topics
E85_FTMFW

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Pensacola

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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2013 2:36:04 PM

I cannot understand why at least one or two gas stations in the Pensacola area haven't started offering E85, when 70% of the vehicles in town could run on "the flexfuel", it's much better for the environment, and would steal the business from SO MANY OTHER STATIONS and make a fortune??!@@@! Makes absolutely no sense to me. Not to mention, every single tuner and muscle car in town would buy from ONLY that station. Until other stations caught on and started selling it, but that would take time. Someone please help me understand why Miami has over 50+ stations in JUST Miami... Jacksonville has over 10, ect ect. But we only have 1 measly station, way out in NAS and the gate guards give you crap if you aren't military and try to go on a regular basis to get it. WHAT GIVES PENSACOLA, YOU ARE 10 YEARS BEHIND CIVILIZATION. GIVE US E85!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It should make you furious to see we are the only area without availability ANYWHERE. Just go look on one of the e85 gas station finder websites.
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E85_FTMFW
Rookie Author Pensacola

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Message Posted: Nov 7, 2013 12:02:46 AM

Also hadn't bothered to read your narrow minded blabber gas buddy and I'll do my best to enlighten you. You are more than likely one of those 59-79 year old guys that still think "if it ain't got at least 8 cylinders it ain't fast" am I right? Most big horsepower street cars today are tuner vehicles. Forced induction, electronic control unit tuning, ect ect. The only changes needed to switch over to e85 is truly a way to tune the vehicle.... Most vehicles made after '02 have ODB II and are capable to be tuned with a multitude of devices and programs.

As for the "converting to e85 only" comment... Again come on into the 21st century. I have dual maps tuned on my ecu, and do nothing but hit a button to switch between the two. I never said anything about ONLY running e85.

Now on to your judgmental and ignorant comments about joining the military blah blah blah. The e85 is open to the public, in fact the public (that's right, us civvies colonel) are the reason Protec partnered with NAS to put that station in. HENCE the fact it infuriates me when some green ass maggot at the gate gets his power panties in a twist and tries to over step his boundaries and stop us from doing what we're ALLOWED to do. It's not privatized to only the military, or I wouldn't be trying to use it.

Marginal power differences?!? Are you serious? I gain upwards of 250 WHEEL horsepower on e85, and I'm in an all wheel drive rally car.... That equates to about 350hp more at the motor with NOTHING but e85 and my other tune. Tell me, how much money would you spend to gain 350hp in a muscle car? Or if that isn't your style... Which wouldn't surprise me in the least... Go ask one of your muscle car buddies what they would expect to pay to add that kind of power. I can only run about 30 psi of boost on 93 octane. E85? Try 45psi.

Lastly, I couldn't care less about posting gas prices for penny pinching know it all geezers such as yourself... The difference comes out to less than $5 when you fill up and I GUARANTEE you waste twice that daily so honestly, who gives a s***

/rant

[Edited by: E85_FTMFW at 11/7/2013 12:09:34 AM EST]
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E85_FTMFW
Rookie Author Pensacola

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Message Posted: Nov 6, 2013 11:26:37 PM

To answer.... We use e85 because it's basically race gas at less than unleaded prices. In performance vehicles that have been setup to flow the extra 20% of fuel... The car can run an enormous amount of timing and tons more boost. E85 cooling properties are out of this world. EGT temps are usually 350 degrees cooler vs 93oct. Yes, I get about 5 mpg less on e85... Couldn't care any less. E85 is about 105 octane for less than $3 a gallon . vs race gas at 110 oct at $10-$15 a gallon. Do that math. Couldn't care less about oil or the earth or the water or the damn farmer. I care about my race car, and wish I could get just ONE gas station owner who owns a hotrod to GET WITH THE PROGRAM.

As for the stoichometric comments and muscle cars ect. We tune my vehicle open loop 24/7 to idle/cruise at 15.5-16.5 and still get pretty decent mileage... Considering it's putting down 800hp to all 4 wheels.

[Edited by: E85_FTMFW at 11/6/2013 11:32:30 PM EST]
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Chazzer
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Oct 18, 2013 2:22:03 PM

ood ... back to regular old gasoline!
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2013 2:57:57 AM

Actually even more water is used to produce oil and gasoline.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Oct 11, 2013 2:14:34 AM

Just curious westfax, did you do the math.

There are 13Million cars registered in California.
If they burn a trillion gallons of gas a month, that is 77000 gallons average of all these cars per month, or about 2500 gallons per day for every single registered car..
Tell us what kind of math you are using. It sounds like political math.
You might consult with your 5th graders, they can do the math.
(Incidently, the ethanol producers would love this, that would be 250 gallons of ethanol for each car per day.)



[Edited by: borsht at 10/11/2013 2:19:29 AM EST]
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 10:32:19 PM

" There are over a Trillion gallons of gas sold each month in the State of California alone. Do the math."

What kind of propaganda do they feed you in California? A trillion gallons of gas is the annual consumption of the entire planet.

"Just think of all the damage it's doing to equipment ( including cars ) while depleting our most precious resource, WATER. Just a few thoughts from a mushroom. "

Most of the corn used to make ethanol comes from the corn-belt. We use RAIN to grow corn there. Glad we can do our part to save California.
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Westfax
Rookie Author California

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 6:05:03 PM

The real issue isn't fuel economy. I'm in California where water has become a political football ( farmers/workers ) that's being kicked all over the place. It takes ( on average ) 3 gallons of water to process 1 gallon of gas. There are over a Trillion gallons of gas sold each month in the State of California alone. Do the math. All this while farming communities are being shutdown because of a lack of water. We have unemployed workers lining up to get food imported from China. Thanks Pelosi, Boxer and Feinstein. So, we plow fields, plant seeds, chop, harvest and process corn for ethanol. Then the ethanol has to be trucked to terminals to be blended with gas. All that wasted energy and food to make people think that we are cleaning up the air ? What a joke. Next spring when you go to crank up the weedeater, mower and chainsaw, tell me how much you like ethanol. Just think of all the damage it's doing to equipment ( including cars ) while depleting our most precious resource, WATER. Just a few thoughts from a mushroom.
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CactusBobs
Champion Author Arizona

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 5:38:00 PM

SoylentGrain :
1972 plymouth Duster was 21 mpg / with e10 18 MPG
1975 GMC 1500 was 13 /with e10 11.5
1979 Volvo was 21 /with e10 18.5
1984 Dodge D150 was 12 /with e10 11 mpg
1994 Ford ranger was 18/with e10 16.5

these are all the cars/trucks i have correct records on

all trucks and cars are in great cond and are driven with a light foot and treated with the finest care , 3 of these are like new and have less than 75,000 miles on them

this is real world mpg
the only other thing i can think of is the age , but i don't own anything newer than 1994
i know these cars are old , but this is Arizona , cars never get/act old here

so when other people complain about ethanol mile drops , i believe them
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 2:57:55 PM

"I have seen a drop in fuel mileage when using E10 by about 2 MPG"

If you are saying you see a 2 mpg decrease in fuel economy from say 25 mpg to 23 mpg, that's a significant drop. 2 mpg decrease from a car delivering 100 mpg, that's more believable. The studies indicate a 1 to 3% decrease in fuel economy when ethanol is combined with regular 87 octane gasoline in a 10% concentration. That's about the same as when using MTBE in a 5% concentration.
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CactusBobs
Champion Author Arizona

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 2:31:16 PM

Note to everyone here : the reason for my first post was to explain market forces to the OP , just because he likes to use E85 (for what ever reason) does not mean the gas stations should carry it if the market for it is just a few people

I did not want to get into a info-match with people that say i am wrong when People (including myself) find that fuel containing ethanol lowers fuel mileage

In every one of these posts i have responded to , there is always someone with a book full of facts , telling me that Ethanol does not cause a drop in MPG
I can 100% tell you , with a MPG book in every car and truck (one going back to 1994) that Ethanol does reduce MPG

this is why (i think) people do not want E85 and as a fact at least one station no longer carry's it
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yakstar
Champion Author Montreal

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 1:36:52 PM

what me worry?
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CactusBobs
Champion Author Arizona

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 1:19:13 PM

SoylentGrain : a lot of information , but in the end it's not true .
I have seen a drop in fuel mileage when using E10 by about 2 MPG
so when i hear more than a few people who have used E85 talk about a major drop in mileage i see how that could be

it might be the mixture , @100% it may burn just as good
I don't know
I do know it's not working out
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 7:30:14 AM

"E85, however, have the drawback of lower fuel economy, as more fuel will be needed per unit of air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine as opposed to traditional gasoline. This corresponds to a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) for E85 than gasoline."

That's a nice theory. But, it doesn't work that way. Heating value isn't part of the equation. What determines power and, ultimately, fuel economy is amount of fuel and the temperature it is burned at. Totally different than heating value. What pushes your car down the road is represented by the equation PV=nrt.

P pressure
V volume
n moles of combustion product
r ideal gas constant
t temperature.

btus or heating value aint part of the equation.

In reality, it's the amount of fuel going into the engine and the temperature it's burned at that produces power.

A pound of gasoline and a pound of ethanol produce about the same amount of power. Because ethanol requires less air, more fuel can be aspirated into the engine. That means more power, a lot more.

As far as the equation goes, here are the differences. n, gasoline produces slightly more combustion product than ethanol. Because ethanol has a higher octane rating and requires less air to burn, it can and is often burned at a higher temperature. the plus sides for both ethanol a gasoline essentially offet each other. What this means, practically, if timing is allowed to float to the aggressive side, you'll never be able to measure a difference in fuel economy between gasoline and ethanol.

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smugutu1234
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 7:08:57 AM

I don't buy it anyway.
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CactusBobs
Champion Author Arizona

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 3:50:35 AM

goldseeker : that is not true in the case of the closed E85 pumps here in phoenix , the pumps where closed because of lack of sales , oil co's had nothing to do with it



[Edited by: CactusBobs at 10/10/2013 3:51:23 AM EST]
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Oct 10, 2013 3:43:11 AM

The reason e85 is not being sold in more areas is simple. The oil companies do not want it to be sold. They have used strong arm tactics nationwide to prevent the sale of e85.

As for muscle cars. With a few minor alterations it will do just fine and of coarse generate more horsepower.

Fuel economy never was an issue with muscle cars.
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Gas_Buddy
Champion Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2013 10:52:26 PM

First, you're saying that "muscle cars" are using E85". Are you sure that you don't mean that "muscle cars" are using non-ethanol gas?

I learned the following from a mechanic at a local shop that does muscle car restoration:
E85 has an octane rating that is higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87 through 93, and this allows it to be used in higher compression engines, using E85, however, have the drawback of lower fuel economy, as more fuel will be needed per unit of air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine as opposed to traditional gasoline. This corresponds to a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) for E85 than gasoline. Because of the lower heating value, E85 has a cooler intake charge but a higher stability level from its higher octane rating. And yes, I know that using E85 results in lower GHG emissions and typically results in a measurable percentage increase in horsepower and torque at the wheels. And yes, because of its lower price than race fuels, and increasing availability in certain areas, the use of E85 is becoming more viable.

However, simply dumping a tank full of E85 in your car and hoping for the best is not a good idea. There are a few changes that will need to be made if I understand correctly, and that an engine has to be converted from race fuel or "pump" gasoline to clean burning, highly-oxygenated ethanol. The carburetor would have to be made to the carburetor before E85 can be run through the; as E85 "burns" differently than conventional fuels, delivery of the ethanol is handled a bit differently through the carburetor. An E85 carburetor needs to be "converted," by changing the metering plates (different emulsion-orifice properties), and possibly, some air bleed, and needle and seat changes.

If you're converting to E-85 only, wouldn't that discourage using the vehicles in non-E-85 areas? Or are you saying that "all the muscle cars in town" will convert to flex fuel operation?

As for "the gate guards give you crap if you aren't military and try to go on a regular basis to get it", well, isn't the military base sales limited to authorized personnel only? And if you're not authorized to use the military facilities, why shouldn't the "guards give you crap"? Especially if, as you say, you want to use those facilities on a regular basis. Of course you could join the military and not get "crap", but I'm guessing that's not what you want to do; you just want to use the military facilities.

And, it's just a suggestion, why not, as a relatively long time member, post a gas price to help your fellow Pensacola Gas Buddy members be more knowledgeable shoppers. Even if you posted E-10 or diesel prices you'd be helping your fellow members more than by simply complaining that Pensacola - which I assume isn't selling E85 at gas stations because the gas stations don't believe there's a sufficient market to make the gas station conversion worth the cost - is "BEHIND CIVILIZATION." Most places, sorry, most "CIVILIZATION" doesn't sell E85.
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2013 10:17:21 PM

We have stations in Kansas were we sell a lot of E85 here. Guess maybe it's a regional thing, I'm hoping that will change someday!
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CactusBobs
Champion Author Arizona

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Message Posted: Oct 9, 2013 9:13:45 PM

Two stations in the East valley of Phoenix no longer sell E85 . that leaves no place to buy e85 anywhere in the east side of phoenix
I do not use it , so i asked a few people who have and i keep getting the same answer : that even though it costs less the fuel mileage drop makes it not worth it .

this was reinforced when i had a tow to one of the stations that used to sell E85 , the owner said there was a rush to get it , people bought it, but few people continued to buy , even when it was $0.35 less than regular . he was no longer selling enough to keep it and converted his tank and pumps to Diesel

the major complaint was again poor mileage
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