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Author Topic: ACE: Big Oil is forcing lower quality gasoline on the market Back to Topics
gamechanger2011

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2013 7:48:57 PM

“If people notice that their gas doesn’t seem as good as it used to be, it’s because the gas isn’t as good as it used to be.” Lamberty says. “The ethanol is exactly the same as it was last week, last month, or last year – but on Sept. 16, the octane of gasoline just got much lower, however consumers will pay the same as before.”
ACE: Big Oil is forcing lower quality gasoline on the market
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 3:09:33 PM

Of course "big oil" is selling inferior gasoline these days. They are being forced to cut it with ethanol.
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dassfg
Champion Author Fort Worth

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Message Posted: Oct 31, 2013 8:33:26 AM

Sounds like someone is confusing summer blend with quality
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 28, 2013 9:01:35 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "It's not, but GC seems to be wrongfully laying "blame" on the oil industry for producing lower octane gasoline as they are being forced to blend it with ethanol..."

Nice spin, but unfortunately you fail again.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 10/28/2013 9:02:48 AM EST]
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Oct 27, 2013 12:01:34 AM

Big oil has been sticking it to us for over a century.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 26, 2013 10:58:12 AM

"How did octane rating become associated with quality of fuel?"

It's not, but GC seems to be wrongfully laying "blame" on the oil industry for producing lower octane gasoline as they are being forced to blend it with ethanol...
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 26, 2013 9:16:53 AM

Absolutely right, banjoe.
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Oct 26, 2013 8:56:46 AM

100% with you SoylentGrain. Absolute or relative - starting or ending states that get us to the same point.

My issue is the implied relationship that low octane is equal to low quality. Octane is not a measurement of quality but is some pretty good marketing.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 26, 2013 8:16:01 AM

" High compression I can understand but selling higher octane levels as somehow superior is a stretch for any thinking individual. "

I know. But, relative compression ratio is only part of the equation. What influences the speed of a chemical reaction is temperature and pressure. That's the part that can manifest as "knock". In your engine those two are controlled by fuel mixture, timing, and manifold pressure.These parameters affect absolute compression every bit as much as relative compression.

The same absolute compression can be achieved with an engine that has a compression ratio of 8:1 as an engine with a compression ratio of 12:1 at normal driving speeds. Simply by advancing the timing or leaning the fuel mixture creates higher and the same absolute pressure in the lower compression engine as the high compression engine. Since your cars engine is computer controlled these settings change on the fly, based on conditions. It's predominately at very high rpm does higher compression provide a benefit in generating a increase in horsepower.

Case in point: high performance aircraft engines. For obvious reasons, they use compression ratios between 7:1 and 9:1. As altitude changes, so does compression. Since timing is static in aircraft power plants, the speed of the chemical reaction between gasoline and air is controlled by fuel mixture.

More to it than just relative compression.


[Edited by: SoylentGrain at 10/26/2013 8:17:39 AM EST]
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Oct 26, 2013 7:22:22 AM

How did octane rating become associated with quality of fuel?

Higher octane is harder to burn and that makes it somehow better for the average engine. High compression I can understand but selling higher octane levels as somehow superior is a stretch for any thinking individual.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2013 12:25:04 PM

Again, shockjock, the "suboctane" fuel is combined with high octane petroleum fuel to produce regular unleaded gasoline. Same thing only ethanol is used for the high octane component.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2013 11:51:28 AM

" Thus since ethanol increase octane 'rating', they can use a lower octane base petroleum product"

So the blame for the production of "sub-octane" fuel should rest solely on the ethanol lobbies, not on the petroleum industry
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Oct 25, 2013 8:31:36 AM

"Thus since ethanol increase octane 'rating', they can use a lower octane base petroleum product."

So, what. It makes no difference if the "lower octane base" octane is increased with ethanol or with long chain hydrocarbons or cyclic hydrocarbons. The final octane rating would be the same and both fuels would use "lower octane base".
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Oct 24, 2013 11:34:50 PM

Could it be a result of the ethanol mandates?
The oil companies are delivering gasoline that meets Government requirements for oxygenates.. It is government that says the ethanol must be in the gasoline. The companies have no obligation to provide a higher octane that what they label it. Thus since ethanol increase octane 'rating', they can use a lower octane base petroleum product.

Government is never very efficient; but they are especially bad when they prescribe the addition of a a substance rather than the performance. Just can't wait for Obama care to kick in, so government can prescribe my medical treatment also.
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thebrohta167
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Oct 24, 2013 11:06:15 AM

grrr....
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2013 3:07:28 AM

I see that shocky is spinning his tall tales again.

Actually according to the real experts ethanol has a better compatibility rating than gasoline on natural rubber and many polymers.

I do not know about you, I will keep the real experts in my camp.
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ggg452
Champion Author Manitoba

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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2013 11:00:29 AM

Sub-octane???? no way...really? I thought standards were applied...dumb me.
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2013 9:50:17 AM

A number of gas stations in my area started offering suboctane reg unleaded blended w/ethanol the first week in Oct.At least initially there has been absolutely no price savings to the customer.Paying the same for 2 less octane points.The 89 octane fuel has now actually increased by generally 5 cents.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Sep 24, 2013 9:44:47 AM

Materials reactive to gasoline:

Lung cells
Eye cells
Skin cells
Stomach cells
Kidney & liver cells
Brain cells
Trees, shrubs, algae
Birds
Fish
Rivers & oceans
water tables & aquifers
atmospheres

(not a comprehensive list)
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 24, 2013 9:24:58 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Materials reactive to ethanol:

Natural Rubber
Polyurethane
Cork Gasket Material
Leather
Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC)
Polyamides
Methyl-Methacrylate Plastics
Polyester-Bonded Fiberglass Laminates"

Ethanol has much better chemical compatibility with materials used in vehicles than the common chemicals used is gasoline like Benzene, Toluene, and Xylene. Please feel free to look up any chemical compatibility or resistance charts like this one

Chemical Compatibility Table

before you continue spread more misinformation. Feel free to share your sources as well.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 9/24/2013 9:27:06 AM EST]
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Sep 24, 2013 12:21:44 AM

The fuel terminal in my area of MN only has had in the past reg unleaded w/10% ethanol.Most of the rest of Mn has had suboctane gas blended with 10% ethanol for a number of years along with generally lower gas prices.Haven't seen any claims by anyone in the state suggesting any issue with suboctane w/10% ethanol vs reg unleaded W/10%.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2013 9:07:42 AM

Materials reactive to ethanol:

Natural Rubber
Polyurethane
Cork Gasket Material
Leather
Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC)
Polyamides
Methyl-Methacrylate Plastics
Polyester-Bonded Fiberglass Laminates
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 23, 2013 9:03:09 AM

You do know there are different types of plastic?

Then again, you probably don't...
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2013 9:38:55 PM

"Paid ethanol shills should just sit down and be quiet"

Paid BIG OIL shills should have shut up long ago, we, the intelligent members of the public, are tired of the lies they have perpetrated, such as the engine damage, and trying to make us believe ethanol dissolves plastics, which is somehow a problem for automobiles, a lie completely blown by the drinking alcohol industry, which has used plastics for many years.

[Edited by: rumbleseat at 9/22/2013 9:40:03 PM EST]
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 22, 2013 9:59:49 AM

"Gasoline refineries switch to a product that is designed to be mixed with ethanol and the ethanol producers object? Talk about being a hypocrite! Paid ethanol shills should just sit down and be quiet and enjoy the increased demand for their product."

Paid ethanol shills? Who would that be?

85 octane fuel is not really Lower quality. Lower octane does not mean lower quality. If anything, lower octane gasoline is cleaner burning, wIth only a slightly lower energy content. It's a good thing. It expands the fuel supply. That means lower prices for you.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 21, 2013 12:07:22 PM

Maintroll has reading comprehension problems.
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Maintroll
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Sep 21, 2013 8:29:34 AM

That is nothing new, we have had poor quality gas since ethanol came onto the scene several years ago.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 2:41:14 PM

"It's a throwback to the day of carburetors. Modern vehicles frequently require 87 octane at all altitudes. So, the demand for 85 octane keeps decreasing."

Funny but demand for the product I sell has been going up in Colorado for the past few years and 85 octane is what I sell."Oil companies were producing regional blends of fuel long before the EPA was a gleam in Richard Nixon's eye."

And the number we are forced to blend now have more than tripled driven by state and federal requirements. The blends are more expensive to make and not interchangeable between regions making gas more expensive.

"State regulations have nothing to do with it. ASTM D 4814, the ASTM Standard Specification for gasoline, calls for lowered octane levels in high altitudes."

State regulations have everything to do with it because the state regulations specifically say you must follow the guidelines in ASTM D 4814. However without the state regulations that says that is the standard to follow then ASTM D 4814 is just a boring read.
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Sneakers55
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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 1:06:59 PM

On Sep 18, 2013 7:27:04 PM, Hannie59 wrote:

>Just another reason to use E-85, 85% pure ethanol

Not during the winter. E-85 is watered down to E-70 during the winter so people can start their vehicles without having to use ether.

>Ethanol is far superior to gasoline in every way.

You can down a shot or two of ethanol and if you don't make a habit of it you'll be no worse for wear.

You down a shot or two of gasoline, you should head to the nearest emergency room.

And, as to this "far superior" product, why can you buy gasoline on every corner and the only place I know of you can buy E-85 is on the Kansas Turnpike? Because nobody but the paid ethanol shills and the corn farmers want ethanol! You also get much superior mileage on E-0, if you can find it.
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Sneakers55
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 12:56:32 PM

On Sep 19, 2013 9:05:29 AM, brerrabbitTX wrote:

>Higher altitudes such as Colorado use 85 octane but that is a function
>of the state regulations.

State regulations have nothing to do with it. ASTM D 4814, the ASTM Standard Specification for gasoline, calls for lowered octane levels in high altitudes.

>If oil companies had their way there would be fewer blends of gas not
>more. Part of the price spikes regionally across the country are simply
>because certain fuels cannot be sold in certain regions and when there
>is a shortage you can't just use anything in the market.

Oil companies were producing regional blends of fuel long before the EPA was a gleam in Richard Nixon's eye.

>Specifically, oil companies are against the lower octane requirements in
>South Dakota and several other states.

It's a throwback to the day of carburetors. Modern vehicles frequently require 87 octane at all altitudes. So, the demand for 85 octane keeps decreasing.
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Sneakers55
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 12:48:14 PM

Gasoline refineries switch to a product that is designed to be mixed with ethanol and the ethanol producers object? Talk about being a hypocrite! Paid ethanol shills should just sit down and be quiet and enjoy the increased demand for their product.
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WVUtailgater
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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 12:30:28 PM

for sure gamechanger
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 10:05:29 AM

darwinfinch,
My second post on this thread said the very thing you did. Bio fuels advocates should be happy because it guarentees the continued use of at least e-10.

And as far as the lower octane requirements go, oil companies,(I know the one I work for at least) have strongly advocated against anything lower than a 87 octane. Higher altitudes such as Colorado use 85 octane but that is a function of the state regulations. If oil companies had their way there would be fewer blends of gas not more. Part of the price spikes regionally across the country are simply because certain fuels cannot be sold in certain regions and when there is a shortage you can't just use anything in the market.

Specifically, oil companies are against the lower octane requirements in South Dakota and several other states.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 9:32:17 AM

I'm actually happy they've started to ship the low-octane base gas because it means oil companies are locking themselves into at least a 10% blend of ethanol for the future to maintain a minimum octane, which is good for the biofuel industry. Or they could push for lower octane standards as they have in South Dakota, where 85 octane fuel is allowed. But I don't think consumers like the knocking and all the warning labels that come with 85 octane, and you can only play that game so long. For example, would anyone put 82 octane fuel in their tank?
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 8:59:57 AM

"Brerrabbitt... "Suboctane allows refiners to get more product from each barrel of oil without harming the quality."But the quality is harmed...hence the name "sub grade." "Sub grade" denotes below grade gasoline. "

See this is how you make an arguement out of something that is not an arguement. Not once have I used the term "sub grade" that's your term. I have said Suboctane. You choose to use a term coined by the writer of the article specifically chosen to say that the gas is somehow inferior. As I noted in another response does that mean that 87 octane gas is sub grade 89, is 89 sub grade premium?

Now you have made the statement "But the quality is harmed...hence the name "sub grade." Why don't you prove that the quality is harmed. You made the claim, now why don't you prove it. Prove it the same way you prove that 87 octane gas is somehow "harmed" because it is not 89 octane. Your logic does not make sense.



[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 9/19/2013 9:01:42 AM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 8:49:33 AM

You people make me laugh. It's a jump on the bandwagon yell a scream at gasoline because we are intelectually superior and can tell you the evils of all things petroleum better than anyone else.

So without making things up as you go, or rolling out your tired and overused excuses explain how we get from where we are to where you all think we should be with ethanol comsumption, how we do it, who pays for it, and if it can even feasibly be done, and what is the time line?

You have never been able to answer those questions before and I doubt you can answer them now and I will get the same answers about hope, and energy independence, and a cleaner burning fuel. I have never once questioned those benifits. However they are absolutely mute if you cannot define a clear path of implementation and funding, which again you are completely silent on.

87 octane E-10 meets all laws, rules, regulations and guidelines that the industry and government have. It is in it's component form not meant to be sold. What is so hard to understand about that? in the winter when RVP's are higher octane is increased by simply adding butanes that were extracted in the low RVP season back into the gas. These are practices that have been around for years. Base grade gasoline in Colorado and several other higher elevation states is 85 octane. They have been making that for many many years, with no issues.

The term sub octane merely means at an octane less that the final octane to be sold. So I guess 87 octane gas is a sub octane to mid grade 89 octane gas ans it is a sub octane to 93 premium gas.

Instead of understanding the industry, you come up with ridiculous arguements that are based on nothing more than an article in an extremely pro ethanol publication that has done little if any research on the subject and is merely writing the article as a way to spread false information.

Hannie obviously your hatred of oil has lead you to condon the very thing you have accused big oil of doing, spreading lies. Welcome to the dark side!
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Sep 19, 2013 12:05:29 AM

Exactly how will this affect the octane of the final product once the 10% ethanol is blended in?

If it is still lower than 87 and I put it in my 15 year old, warrantyless Jeep without any sort of octane booster, won't that harm the engine? If so, wouldn't that require me to put a gallon or two of E85 in it while filling it or start using 89 octane mid grade fuels, which would be more expensive than regular on it's own, or especially a splash blend.

How about my 200, which has a 10:1 compression ratio, and not only still has the factory warranty, but also has a lifetime warranty I bought in addition. If I have to fill it with just regular enough that it eliminates the added ethanol remaining in the tank and the engine starts to knock bad enough that it sets off a code or worse, physically hurts the motor and it turns out that repair isn't covered due to burning too low an octane or gets the warranty canceled after the repair is completed for the same reason.

Am I, or any motorist in that situation, just SOL?
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2013 8:43:31 PM

Brerrabbitt... "Suboctane allows refiners to get more product from each barrel of oil without harming the quality."But the quality is harmed...hence the name "sub grade." "Sub grade" denotes below grade gasoline.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2013 8:27:04 PM

Just another reason to use E-85, 85% pure ethanol and superior quality product.

Gasoline is nothing but a toxic waste that just happens to combust in an engine. It is produced and marketed by people so evil that they HAVE THE MAJORITY OF NORTH AMERICA BELIEVING A LIE AND CONTINUE TO FORCE THE LIE DOWN THEIR THROATS.

Ethanol is far superior to gasoline in every way.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 9/18/2013 8:32:45 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2013 12:31:36 PM

Ok Brerrabbitt....is it less expensive to make the new subgrade or not? Can it be used without increasing the octane, by adding an additive such as premium or ethanol?

Yes it is cheaper to make, hence the reason I said "They have been passed to the consumers for over three years in the markets that have introduced sub octane blends." "They" being the cheaper costs.

No it cannot be used without ethanol, the reason I said this, "The presence of sub octane gas in the market place means that ethanol has to be blended with the gas in order to be sold."

I am not really sure what you are getting at. Suboctane allows refiners to get more product from each barrel of oil without harming the quality. Nothing different than stretching through new processes the amount of ethanol you get from each bushel of corn. The idea that we can be more effcient with any of our fuel sources mean we can stretch them further and perhaps lower the price. Nothing wrong with either concept but for some reason ethanol backers want to use this process as a further reason to say gasoline is bad.

I don't understand the concept.
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2013 12:18:11 PM

Ok Brerrabbitt....is it less expensive to make the new subgrade or not? Can it be used without increasing the octane, by adding an additive such as premium or ethanol?
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2013 1:40:39 AM

ZoneAlarm Security Suite doesn't alert, and running Malwarebytes and/or Spybot Search and Destroy after visiting the site detects nothing.
Perhaps you have inadvertently clicked on the app installation? That does generate a security alert, as does clicking on any app installation on my system. It didn't pop up when I opened the page in Firefox, but it did when I opened it in IE, which has a ZoneAlarm Security toolbar.
Otherwise, if there is nothing else at work, it is a false positive.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2013 10:48:09 PM

I would say stay away from that ethanolproducer.com site, it sets off security warnings on my computer's AVG.
Its very rare for it to do that.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2013 9:43:35 PM

They have been passed to the consumers for over three years in the markets that have introduced sub octane blends. On top of that how ethanol supporters can call this situation a bad thing is almost laughable. The presence of sub octane gas in the market place means that ethanol has to be blended with the gas in order to be sold. Again the absolute irony of this whole situation is that the introduction of sub octane into this market in the heart of corn country, the heart of ethanol production area, the biggest gripe that consumers and dealers have is that 87 octane gasoline without ethanol will not be available for consumers to buy. 30% of the gas sold in this area is gasoline without ethanol and that is what everyone is upset about.

The idea that it is sub octane gas does not mean it is of any lesser quality. It simply means that if the manufacturer of autos call for 87 octane gas and 10% ethanol adds 2 octane points then why not make a lower octane gas that when blended makes the 87 called for? Is the sub octane cheaper? 87 octane with 10% ethanol is selling at the wholesale level for 30 cents a gallon cheaper than 87 with no ethanol.

The person writing the article really should do his homework because reality is so different than what he is presenting.
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2013 6:38:40 PM

I guess it's all how you look at it Brerrabbitt. If the refineries are making subgrade gasoline and not passing the savings on to the customer....then he is right. Are the oil companies passing along the savings or pocketing them?
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2013 1:47:09 PM

All in all one of the most ridiculous articles I have ever read, written by an individual with an agenda and no clue as to what is really happening in the market.

[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 9/17/2013 1:47:43 PM EST]
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2013 10:18:54 AM

Why not? They can always blame ethanol.
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