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Author Topic: Stale Minds and a Lack of Vision Back to Topics
darwinfinch

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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 3:08:57 PM

<opinion>

One thing the heeldraggers seem to have in common is a staleness of mind and a lack of vision.

They will say they are "realists" and have lots of bullet points to back up their support of the status quo. Yet defending the status quo is the easiest task, for it hardly requires any movement or imagination.

It is my opinion (not that it's worth anything) that if you cannot combine your grasp of reality with a vision for the future, then all your bullet points are hollow.

What I see is one side defending the bully majority for its historical and current benefits the way we would read a list of ingredients in a recipe.

Pioneers and forward thinkers, also familiar with the current benefits, will bring another layer onto the discussion: a vision for the future. Discussing what we want, how we might achieve, and considering values beyond profit and self. This is dreaming. (The heeldraggers will LOL at the use of the word "dreaming" because dreaming to them is a flaw, because it is not a historical way of describing the world.) Dreaming involves risks, mistakes, change, hope and faith (another list the draggers will find LOL-worthy).

It IS possible to critique and question the very thing that nourishes your roots. In fact, doing so may be the hallmark of humble brilliance. Why do some people struggle with this?

</opinion>
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SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2013 9:33:15 AM

"It is my opinion (not that it's worth anything) that if you cannot combine your grasp of reality with a vision for the future, then all your bullet points are hollow."

At 19 years old, my Dad was laughed at for planting corn with a tractor. That was in the late 1930's. In the 1950's planting corn with horses was not all that uncommon. Still, 70 years later, you can find people who plant entire farms with horses. Many Amish still use horses. My point is the majority of the population is slow to adapt.

I would apply a 90/10 rule with regard to innovation. 10% will see the advantage and capitalize, early, on those benefits. The 90% will continue to try to fit the square peg in a round hole. It will be decades, before the benefits of ethanol are recognized by the majority.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 8, 2013 10:38:50 AM

Someone's sarcasm meter is broken.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 9:05:38 PM

"Seems to me if gasoline was all that great, it would exist in the marketplace without taxpayer incentives."

Add that same reasoning to ethanol...
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rumbleseat
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 8:23:51 PM

Seems to me if gasoline was all that great, it would exist in the marketplace without taxpayer incentives.

From 2011: "After announcing a quarterly profit of $3 billion last week, the CEO of ConocoPhillips said it would be "un-American" to end the taxpayer-funded subsidies that gave $4 billion in corporate welfare to the nation's five largest oil companies last year." (USA Today)

Just this year, by a 52-48 vote, Republicans and oil-state Democrats sank a bill repealing $21 billion in tax incentives over 10 years for the five biggest private integrated oil companies.

And the US isn't alone in that stupidity, Canada ended tax breaks to oil sands in 2008, but replaced them with subsidies!

We are being hosed.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 6:04:35 PM

"Google it. 75% of Americans support renewable fuel, which means an implied 75% of Americans support the goals and products fundamental to the ethanol industry."

Take a logic class and learn how faulty this reasoning is...

So in other words you have no study which demonstrates that 75% of the people in the US support ethanol, only anecdotal evidence of survey of which you can't even provide the question set....

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 8/7/2013 6:08:02 PM EST]
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 5:53:55 PM

"Absolutely certain. Ethanol can't provide more then a very VERY small fraction of the energy we use yet it already consumes 40%+ of the corn we grow.... "

What do you expect when it takes roughly 25lb of corn to make 1 gallon?

Give me cellulosic methanol I can burn it in my diesel today.
The best part about it is we already have a cellulosic methanol plant built right here in the US and it works.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 2:34:48 PM

"I'm still waiting for DF to provide the study which shows 75% of Americans back ethanol. What are you waiting for DF?"

Google it. 75% of Americans support renewable fuel, which means an implied 75% of Americans support the goals and products fundamental to the ethanol industry.

I suspect you will say "the word ethanol wasn't in the poll" and thus convince yourself that the poll is junk and that most people agree with Big Oil, its policies, and its tactics.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 1:54:06 PM

"Shocky won't back up his claims..."

I've backed up my claims on multiple occasions. You don't accept the facts because the RFA doesn't endorse them, since the truth would cost them sales...

I'm still waiting for DF to provide the study which shows 75% of Americans back ethanol. What are you waiting for DF?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 1:51:40 PM

"If ethanol can bring us into the renewable future, great"

I agree, but the government should not force people to use it. If it's a superior fuel, people will buy it. That they don't is the reason there is a mandate...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 1:49:47 PM

"So certain are you..."

Absolutely certain. Ethanol can't provide more then a very VERY small fraction of the energy we use yet it already consumes 40%+ of the corn we grow....
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 1:48:27 PM

"Multiple companies are already building cellulosic plants."

Multiple companies HAVE built cellulosic plants. Everyone of them took the government handout and then went bankrupt...

"Crop yields for food AND fuel are up."

Due to the use of GMO crops. Sorry, I personally don't like pesticides embedded in each cell of the food I eat. I doubt many sane people do.

"Please explain how the government requirement for seatbelts in cars is conceptually different than the government requirement for clean-burning, renewable blends of renewable fuel?"

One is a mandate concerns safety and is responsible for saving 10,000+ lives/year, the other is mandate designed to produce a market and advantages in that market for a product that can't compete on it's own.

Apple and oranges comparison which is what makes it a Non sequitur...
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 1:36:06 PM

DF...when I started posting on here a couple years ago, there were more like Shocky. What has happened to Reb4? Reb4 and Shocky both used to go after the pro ethanol crowd. Shocky seems to be the lone wolf now. Shocky won't back up his claims...at least Reb 4 backed his up!
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 1:23:27 PM

We should be celebrating as Shockjock1961's slander of cellulosic ethanol over the years is going to come back very soon and bite him in the you know what. Then he will claim he never said it was a pipe dream. The fact is.... he has called cellulosic a pipe dream over 100 times.

Isn't it ironic that Shockjock1961 and his counterparts at the American Petroleum Institute are creating a campaign of lies and slander just as cellulosic has emerged online??



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 8/7/2013 1:26:27 PM EST]
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 12:23:11 PM

I actually enjoy debating these issues with oil defenders. It's too bad that there aren't more of them here to talk to so we don't have to toy with Shocky, who has 3 or 4 points he likes to make but will never back them up.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 12:18:22 PM

"It seems to me that mandating ethanol, as well as other mandates, is a staleness of mind?"

Ethanol, biodiesel, solar, wind, nuclear, fission, fusion... these are all things I support. If ethanol can bring us into the renewable future, great. If in time, Big Ethanol becomes the bully and tries to squash the little guy of the future, I will turn against them without hesitation.

I'm not aware of anyone in the ethanol advocacy community who has claimed that the goal is to place ethanol on a pillar for thousands of years as the sole energy source. In fact, the head of a major biofuel company has said publicly that should the winds of technology switch to biodiesel, or biobutanol, or something else renewable... the company would support that shift in every way possible.

If you are picking 1 energy solution as the winner, then you're using Big Oil mentality.
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borsht
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 12:05:38 PM

OK, a good vision is of the day we utilize nuclear fusion. This is a practical possibility. It is proven, we reached net breakeven with magnetic confinement. And the development was stopped, because it would prevent the laser ignition process from being developed. The laser beam has the potential as a anti missile defense weapon. So, it has too much opposition ,
military, oil and others. Are they healdraggers or sandbaggers?
Thus one must have the right kind of dreams, that are politically correct.
So dream on, hope you enjoy the ethanol while you're waiting.

It seems to me that mandating ethanol, as well as other mandates, is a staleness of mind?
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 12:03:37 PM

Shocky doesn't have a clue and doesn't want to have one.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 11:57:30 AM

"In other words, there is a pipe dream..."

Multiple companies are already building cellulosic plants. Crop yields for food AND fuel are up. Enzyme technology advances daily. Water use drops daily. Efficiency and production capacity (for ethanol and animal feed products) increase daily. Jobs are created daily. This is all concurrent to scientific and economic advances in the wind, solar, and battery industries. Open you eyes; it's already happening.

The idea that we can afford to laugh at alternatives and rely on oil forever... is the real pipe dream.

"Yet another red herring Non sequitur... "

Please explain how the government requirement for seatbelts in cars is conceptually different than the government requirement for clean-burning, renewable blends of renewable fuel?

"You won't achieve this goal through ethanol, that's for sure..."

So certain are you...

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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 11:55:08 AM

"Shocky is clearly here to antagonize..."

Nope, I'm here to counter the inaccurate propaganda being put out by ethanol shills...
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 11:53:56 AM

Shocky is clearly here to antagonize....his agenda is crystal clear. I'm close to blocking him again so that I don't have to read the nonsense.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 11:42:53 AM

"The amount of solar energy hitting our planet has been calculated to be 20,000 times our global energy consumption. If we could capture even .01% of that, we'd be set for a long time"

You won't achieve this goal through ethanol, that's for sure...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 11:41:37 AM

"There are a number of ways to get there, and people are already working on it."

In other words, there is a pipe dream...

">> Seatbelts are fine as long as you are not forced to buy them everywhere."

Yet another red herring Non sequitur...
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 10:46:00 AM

The amount of solar energy hitting our planet has been calculated to be 20,000 times our global energy consumption. If we could capture even .01% of that, we'd be set for a long time.

That's the kind of statistic that pushes back against the pessimism we hear every day about renewable energy.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 8:28:02 AM

"Ethanol is fine as long as you are not forced to buy it every where"

>> Seatbelts are fine as long as you are not forced to buy them everywhere.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 8:26:59 AM

"What I have questioned many times with no response from the ethanol crowd is how do we get there from here?"

Here's a response:

There are a number of ways to get there, and people are already working on it. The bigger question (which ethanol advocates are more concerned with) is what to do about the bully tactics of the overpowering majority (big oil) we keep running into.

You can ask me what song I'm going to sing and theorize whether or not it will be in tune, but if your hands are around my throat when you ask, it's a silly question.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 1:41:28 AM

"Ethanol is fine as long as you are not forced to buy it every where"

I couldn't agree with you more...
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oilpan4
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2013 1:38:49 AM

Ethanol is fine as long as you are not forced to buy it every where.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 11:56:43 PM

So are you claiming that you don't sell gasoline for a living?
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 11:46:16 PM

You don't have a clue what we do Shocky! You have NO idea what we actually do.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 11:27:21 PM

"So we will continue to do what we do..."

Do what you do? You sell gasoline for a living...
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 10:59:42 PM

Loved your thread DW! This was very heart felt and mimics my feelings to a tee.

Brerrabbitt....Loved your input here agree with you on many things you posted. I believe that we will need a combination of things. Maybe CNG for fleets...I'm not sure.

We fight for ethanol because that is what we do and what we know. I get tired of the misinformation. I hate the way that people are made to look foolish because they have bought into the propaganda put out by the oil companies. I have to explain to people all the time that they have been misinformed. It's confusing for people and I actually am starting to see that people are starting to feel duped!

We do our part and intend to do much more as time and finances allow! If we weren't passionate about it...we would never survive! We'd start questioning and double guessing ourselves with all the misinformation out there. But we know better! We talk to customers all the time that are have not bought into propaganda and love using E85 and other ethanol blends. It actually helps confirm that we are doing the right thing!

I also agree that cellulosic ethanol will be a gamechanger. We are counting on it! That's why I have said over and over again that corn ethanol is helping us build the infrastructure for the second generation ethanol.

So we will continue to do what we do....no matter what anyone thinks. We know it's the right thing to do!



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 8/6/2013 11:02:02 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 5:19:04 PM

"Every time you use the word "force", you condescend to insult the majority of drivers and consumers who ask for, look for, vote for, and push for clean-burning, affordable renewable fuel"

Why should they be offended or insulted by the truth?

"I come solidly from the point that ethanol should continue to grow as a fuel in the US. It should be a choice consumers make, and it should not be given artificial advantages."

Exactly...
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 5:13:51 PM

Despite recent conversations to make most here think I do not support ethanol, I will say as I have many times before that I have no issues with ethanol, it's use' or it's growth.

What I have questioned many times with no response from the ethanol crowd is how do we get there from here?

Sound bites and the condemnation of the current system make for great "I told you so's", but what is the answer. You guys talk a great ethanol game but where is it heading? Is an all e-85 or bust goal? Is it a 50/50 split? WHere exactly are you satisfied that we are doing the right thing?

Even within your ranks one says ethanol is ethanol I don't care where it comes from while another agrees with the RFA that says South American ethanol is bad!

I come solidly from the point that ethanol should continue to grow as a fuel in the US. It should be a choice consumers make, and it should not be given artificial advantages. Some say Big oil gets subsidies which they do get some, but they also get a lot of tax breaks that other US companies get as well. Others, Big oil gets none of like depletion allowances. People like me get those. I think that as we show sustainable, economical growth of ethanol supplies we should adapt more of it for use. Try as you might you can't force the issue before it's time. If every acre of corn in this country was dedicated to corn for ethanol you still could not come close to meeting total demand. I believe in an integrated approach that includes LNG, CNG and ethanol along with gas. I don't favor one over another I think they are all viable.

That's my vision and I will add one other provision. If cellulosic ethanol can ever be produced economically when they figure out the enzyme issue then I can see a very heavy shift to ethanol usage because we will be able to produce it from everything from algae to wood chips and beyond. But let me say that will be bad news for the RFA because at that point we won't need a single bushel of corn to make the ethanol we need and we will have to go back to using corn for food and moonshine only. At that point we will need a new organization to lead the ethanol charge because corn money won't be supporting those guys anymore.

[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 8/6/2013 5:15:01 PM EST]
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 4:50:25 PM

Every time you use the word "force", you condescend to insult the majority of drivers and consumers who ask for, look for, vote for, and push for clean-burning, affordable renewable fuel.

Methinks the oil guy is butthurt over the unpopularity of his product...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 4:42:19 PM

"I know you don't believe it, but biofuel, solar and wind visionaries can see the future you describe, and how to get there"

How to get there? Force people to use an impractical, uncompetitive fuel...

Hardly risky or visionary...
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 4:39:19 PM

"If ethanol producers had vision and were risk takers..."

I know you don't believe it, but biofuel, solar and wind visionaries can see the future you describe, and how to get there. Even with the boot of Big Oil on their throats, they are already moving in that direction.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 4:17:35 PM

If ethanol producers had vision and were risk takers, then they should just do that, take the risk of producing it and hope that their product were revolutionary enough that it would develop it's market based on it's own merits.

Instead the ethanol producers have proven they are neither risk takers nor visionaries due to their removing any risk by simply having the government force people to use a product that is neither revolutionary, nor even competitive as compared to existing fuels...

The fact of the matter is they have produced a fuel that is reliant on the very fuel it is supposed to replace. Talk about stagnate strategy that lacks vision...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 8/6/2013 4:21:38 PM EST]
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Aug 6, 2013 3:31:30 PM

Those that lack vision often try to turn arguments into what they aren't. This isn't a political issue. Every president since Carter, has decried our dependence on a single source of fuel. Seems to me we've had some dems and republicans in that office. Pretty much a universal problem to people who have vision.

Optimism rules! We won't be stuck on gasoline forever.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 8/6/2013 3:35:31 PM EST]
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