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Author Topic: More Hooey from American Petroleum Institute Back to Topics
Hannie59

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Appleton

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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2013 5:12:28 PM

On their latest campaign.....

"What does it say about an industry so desperate to protect its monopoly that it distorts reality in a feeble effort to hoodwink consumers? API is intentionally confusing a debate about E15 with the Renewable Fuels Standard, an important policy that is reducing our dependence on imported oil while saving consumers money at the pump. E15 is not mandated. E15 is a cost-saving, environment-protecting, oil addiction-breaking fuel alternative. E15 is a choice and American consumers are in the driver's seat."

Tom Buis, chief executive officer of Growth Energy said in a statement that API's new campaign is nothing new.

"This is just more of the same from big oil," he said. "They will stop at nothing to maintain their near monopoly on the liquid fuels market, even if it means saddling consumers with ever-increasing prices at the pump. This is nothing more than a diversion from what is really on motorists' minds.

"Notice how this 'new campaign' comes on the heels of a gas price increase of 3.2 cents last Friday, the largest one-day spike in five months, and predictions from AAA of another expected increase of 10 to 15 cents in the coming days."
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2013 12:49:09 AM

Topicalm....we were at a conference with someone from the RFA and the Kansas Corn Commission a couple of months ago. We are aware of the Kansas Corn Commission incentives. There is no government money for us like Brerrabbit would like everyone to think.

Three blenders would cost $75,000. The Corn commision money is helpful... but barely makes a dent. We are working on it though. We have 3 plus 1 pumps now so that we can offer E85. We really want blenders though!

Thanks for your help. I appreciate it!

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/27/2013 12:50:06 AM EST]
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2013 12:33:09 AM

Many states offer incentives for flex fuel pump installations

Gamechanger, The Kansas Corn Commission’s Blender Pump Program provides funding of $2,500 to offset infrastructure costs, plus $500 for promotion for qualified ethanol blender pump programs. Fuel stations that meet bonus criteria can receive up to $3,000 of additional funding.If bonus criteria is met, a fuel retailer can receive up to $6,000 in infrastructure and promo-
tional funds.The funding comes from corn growers checkoff funds.
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2013 12:18:14 PM

brerrabbitt is referring to "REAP," Rural Energy for America Program. The extra expense for blender pumps is hard to justify for small towns and many rural areas. It's an additional $8000 a pump to install a blender. That's a lot of extra money. Not sure what the price difference is about, but it's the deal.

We don't qualify for REAP money because we are in a larger town. Wish we did! Would be nice. We have to foot the bill on our own!



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/26/2013 12:20:16 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2013 8:31:34 AM

Even if a gas station gets monetary help installing a blander pump, how exactly is considered Ethanol industry subsidy? Using this logic I can argue that it is another Big Oil subsidy.
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 8:01:02 PM

breerrabitt..

"As for ethanol not getting subsidies, the programs available for dealers to buy and install blending pumps and facilities are plentiful, and those are outright subsidies."

Really..I'd like to know where those are. Unless you have a store in the suburbs or a small town there is NO money for blenders. Blenders cost about $25,000 per pump. I would love to have some help with the cost....but there is NO money out there for us. Can you please help me find some? I would LOVE it!!!!



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/25/2013 8:01:56 PM EST]
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 5:12:38 PM

brerrabbitTX.... uhhhhh corn prices are way down now.

As for the buying public, how about you tell your peeps to stop the smear campaign and the lies, let's actually give the public the chance to weigh the real facts for once. If oil spent the smear money on exploration maybe they could compete in the marketplace instead of trying to win a PR campaign with BS.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/25/2013 5:19:27 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 4:37:59 PM

I will not debate mandates vs subsidies because it is a very fine line. Again many tax treatments used by oil companies are available to all manufacturers. So yes they are subsidies but they are not specific to oil. Also as I stated in the previous post many of the subsidies they count are not available to big oil companies but landowners who collect royalties like myself. That is specifically depletion allowances.

As for ethanol not getting subsidies, the programs available for dealers to buy and install blending pumps and facilities are plentiful, and those are outright subsidies.

Rather than subsidies and mandates when it comes to the RFA look at it this way. Does government actions, rules or regulations benifit a specific group economically?

In the case of the RFA the answer is yes. Corn prices are up due to a governmental mandate that the US fuel chain must contain a minimum amount of ethanol each year. That increases demand for corn and increases prices so farmers benifit from it. You say potato I say po tato. Same difference. Basic economic theroy bears it out.

Finally while I am not opposed to ethanol I find it really interesting that based on EIA estimates for 2013 that of the 400 million gallons sold daily in the US, .00042 of that is E-85 which by EIA definition is any blend greater than 50%. For all the support ethanol finds here the consumming public as a whole does not think the same way.
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 1:09:23 PM

Thanks for your post brerrabbitTX. We have been debating this for years. You set the record straight for those who want to argue on this subject constantly. Oil still receives subsidies while ethanol no longer does. As for the mandate on ethanol being blended into the fuel supply, I would have argue that it is not a subsidy. Farmers are growing and selling a product that is used to make fuel. Where is the subsidy in that. There are no tax breaks or incentives for the farmers that I am aware of.

What we want is a fuel choice. We want a choice at the pump! Many of us are tired of the oil monopoly. Oil companies think that choice is offering three different octanes of gasoline. This is no longer acceptable to many of us. If there were no government mandate the big oil companies would never allow this to happen, and most people know this.

I am seeing a growing awareness by consumers of the big oil monopoly and many are resenting it. The best thing that the big oil companies could do to save their image, is to get on board and stop fighting the inevitable change that is taking place. Consumers want a choice at the pump. It's becoming more clear all the time.



Once again I must say that a subsidy and a mandate are 2 very different things.



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/22/2013 1:10:38 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 12:31:31 PM

Big oil receives what some call subsidies. Some are truely subsidies, while others are tax treatments available to all manufacturing concerns in the US. I really don't want to get into a discussion of tax codes. I will say this though, wind energy and solar energy get more in subsidies than all other forms of energy combined and yet we here no one complaining about that. Also even though the direct subsidies for ethanol have ceased, one cannot deny that the EPA mandate that 13.5 billion gallons of ethanol be mixed in with fuel supplies in the US is a form of subsidy. Any time a government requires the use of a product and applys a fine if the required product is not used and to use that product one must pay a manufacturer to aquire it then that is by definition a form of subsidy.

Further when the requirement in order to be met causes fuel blenders to spend more in the way of capital to blend higher % mixes then the government is in effect requiring the expenditure of money by the blenders.

Finally take a look at the programs available on a state by state basis to fuel sellers to receive blending pump, and additional tankage to blend higher ethanol percentages. They range from 100% reimbursement to loan forgiveness to grants to install the equipment. These programs are not federally run but rather state run and widely available.

So when it comes to subsidies they are widespread and it would take a huge number of CPA's to actually come up with the true numbers. Sufice it to say there is plenty of government (both state and federal) money floating around for people to use.

Also keep in mind that one of the subsidies always listed for oil companies is depletion allowances. Big oil has not received those for years. They are available to individuals where oil companies have leased an individuals land for oil and gas production. They are sizable but individuals like myself take advantage of them. I know most here could care less, but that provision saves me money every year and is not helping big oil in any way. It just takes more money out of my pocket and thousands of landowners across the country.

This discussion is not a simple one you can boil down to a few sound bites.

[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 7/22/2013 12:33:38 PM EST]
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Banjoe
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Message Posted: Jul 21, 2013 8:35:45 AM

Thanks for posting this Hannie59. Should be an excellent discussion.
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rumbleseat
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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 5:19:12 PM

GrumpyCat wrote: "Big oil does not receive subsidies."

Ooh, good one! Repeat 100,000 times. It still won't be true, but you might be tired of it.
Subsidies, tax breaks or tax holidays, incentives, they all add up to billions of dollars from various levels of government. And, considering the oil industry is profitable, it just sad that these subsidies are there, and people refuse to believe it.

[Edited by: rumbleseat at 7/19/2013 5:20:25 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 19, 2013 8:56:38 AM

GrumpyCat wrote: "Big oil does not receive subsidies."

Wrong again! They are heavily subsidized. The ethanol industry stopped taking subsidies last year and guess what. The ethanol industry survived!
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pt1KY
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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 10:20:18 AM

Nothing new about the greedy oil companies!
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 10:15:23 AM

GrumpyCat wrote: "Big oil does not receive subsidies."

Wrong, what a surprise.

Here are estimated federal tax subsidies for year(s) 2013, 2013-2017, 3013-2022 in millions of dollars.

Expensing of Intangible Drilling Costs - 3,490, 10,968, 13,902
Deduction for Tertiary Injectants - 7, 51, 100
Passive Loss Exception for Working Interests - 9, 47, 82
Percentage Depletion - 612, 5,029, 11,465
Domestic Manufacturing Deduction - 574, 4,877, 11,612

Oil and Natural Gas Industry Tax Issues in the FY2013 Budget Proposal

Happy 100th anniversary to oil tax subsidies, long-lived Big Oil welfare.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 7/18/2013 10:17:40 AM EST]
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 10:08:36 AM

"Big Oil is raising prices while collecting subsidies and blaming everybody else but themselves. How original."

Big oil does not receive subsidies.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 9:49:51 AM

Big Oil is raising prices while collecting subsidies and blaming everybody else but themselves. How original.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 7/18/2013 9:50:47 AM EST]
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smugutu1234
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 7:02:39 AM

Figures
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 4:21:45 AM

Yep, and prices are already headed up around here.
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