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Author Topic: Biofuel from wood chips Back to Topics
gamechanger2011

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Message Posted: Jul 8, 2013 7:15:49 PM


The wood that once fed paper mills will be chipped up, as seen below, and converted directly into gasoline and diesel fuel in a process its advocates say will be more sustainable than corn ethanol.

Biofuels from wood chips
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Apr 18, 2014 1:44:33 PM

Must not be anyone from Mississippi on this forum.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2014 9:16:58 AM

"Sounds like a great idea"

Sure if it worked... Unfortunately, it doesn't work...

"Better than using our food supply for food"

Are you saying we should not be eating our food supply???? What should we be doing with it then?

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TX_HOU
Rookie Author Houston

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2014 6:30:35 PM

Sounds like a great idea. Better than using our food supply for food.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2014 11:33:28 PM

It appears Syntroleaum is still in the game.
"Syntroleum has been working with the U. S. Air Force to develop a synthetic jet fuel blend. The Air Force, which is the U.S. military's largest user of fuel, began exploring alternative fuel sources in 1999. On December 15, 2006, a B-52 took off from Edwards AFB for the first time powered solely by a 50-50 blend of JP-8 and Syntroleum's FT fuel. The seven-hour flight test was considered a success. The goal of the flight test program was to qualify the fuel blend for fleet use on the service's B-52s, and then flight test and qualification on other aircraft.[2]

Syntroleum has opened the $150 million Dynamic Fuels facility in Geismar, Louisiana. The facility operates as a joint venture with Tyson Foods. The produces synthetic fuel by utilizing Syntroleum's technology and Tyson sourced agricultural feedstock. Starting from October, 2010, the facility produces 2,500 barrels per day (400 m3/d) or 39 million US gallons per year (150×103 m3/a) of synthetic fuel."
This may be a big factor in Rentech's getting out of the business.
But the investors in Rentech are a little unhappy.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Apr 3, 2014 11:20:18 PM

The only company that got certified for alternative fuel for planes, Rentech, is shutting its biofuel operation down.
The air forced used the fuel to power B52s successfully.
United airlines certified it for use in its fleet of jets.

But Rentech has chosen to shut down the plant and concentrate on wood to wood pellets for heat.
It takes far less energy to convert wood into wood pellets.
Ten years of development down the drain. Investors are pretty upset.

In 2010 they did the first demo flight with united.

The validation flight was conducted using a 40/60 mix of Rentech’s synthetic jet fuel with conventional Jet A fuel in one of two engines on an Airbus 319 aircraft. The aircraft departed Denver International Airport and climbed to an altitude of 39,000 feet where the onboard team collected data on the performance of the fuel during several maneuvers, including taxi, takeoff, climb, cruise, auxiliary power unit start, descent and approach. The synthetic jet fuel, derived from natural gas and converted to liquid fuel through the Rentech Fischer Tropsch process, is approved by the ASTM International and is safe for use on passenger flights.
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Mar 31, 2014 9:22:42 PM

Obviously, the technology was just not there yet. Should not have been built. We paid!
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Mar 31, 2014 3:03:49 PM

Why aren't we converting coal to gasoline:
South Africa has done this for decades!
Not only are they manufacturing their gasoline this way, But they are getting U.S. patents on the processes. Stupid U.S. Politicians are paid to come up with mandates to use alcohol for fuel.
The U.S. used to be great at process and manufacturing technology.
Now all we do is regulate. Not Saying regulation isn't needed; but we need to be smarter.
http://www.wvcoal.com/research-development/south-africa-improves-coal-to-gasoline-conversion-efficiencies.html

I don't think wood chips is a significant answer to our energy independence.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 31, 2014 9:34:27 AM

"Wood chips make a fantastic diesel fuel. It's real easy to make from the chips!"

Then why would a plant, which has had millions of dollars of taxpayers money inveted into it, shut down because the "technology is just not there yet"?
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Chazzer
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Mar 30, 2014 1:58:56 PM

Wood chips make a fantastic diesel fuel. It's real easy to make from the chips!
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2014 9:33:36 PM

Sounds like that plant is dead in the water.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2014 11:38:09 PM

"I don't see anything new about this project. BlueFire is really quiet"

As I predicted...

KiOR made pie in the sky promises about it's ability to make a "break-thru" fuel in order to get millions of dollars of taxpayer funds. After it got the money, it decided that the technology wasn't evolved enough to achieve the pie in the sky goals that they promised.

So know they are shutting down and walking off with the money, a repeat performance by Vinod Khosla...

Biofuel Maker KiOR Posts All-Time Low on “Going Concern” Doubts

I stated right from the start of this topic that this was nothing more then a scam...

I've been proven right again...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 3/24/2014 11:40:53 PM EST]
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2014 4:43:08 PM

In January 2014, we elected to temporarily discontinue operations at our Columbus facility in order to attempt to complete a series of optimization projects and upgrades that are intended to help achieve operational targets that we believe are attainable based on the design of the facility. While we have completed some of these projects and upgrades, we have elected to suspend further optimization work and bring the Columbus facility to a safe, idle state, which we believe will enable us to restart the facility upon the achievement of additional research and development milestones, consisting of process improvements and catalyst design, financing and completion of the optimization work. Unless and until we restart the Columbus facility, we expect to have no production or revenue from that facility.
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Mar 24, 2014 3:54:28 PM

I don't see anything new about this project. BlueFire is really quiet.
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2014 6:32:38 PM

Anybody live in the south close to this plant?
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poetdog73
All-Star Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2014 5:14:10 AM

how ABOUT ALGA!!!!
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skaboss79
Sophomore Author New Mexico

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Message Posted: Mar 23, 2014 12:00:27 AM

where are they doing it?
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thebrohta167
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2014 2:08:50 PM

ok
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Chazzer
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2014 1:21:54 PM

Sounds good to me!
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 9:22:30 AM

"In some places they make it from prairie grass"

In very small uneconomical batches. Nothing in commercial volume...
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dassfg
Champion Author Fort Worth

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Message Posted: Feb 13, 2014 6:52:12 AM

In some places they make it from prairie grass
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2014 3:29:55 PM

"just one more way to make renewal energy"

Nope, just one more way to rip off the taxpayer under the guise of "developing" and "producing" renewable fuels...
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namzza6310
All-Star Author Milwaukee

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Message Posted: Feb 10, 2014 8:42:02 AM

just one more way to make renewal energy
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2014 11:11:26 AM

You know they can make methanol from wood chips and that process was commercialized at least 60 or 70 years ago.
But I guess doing whats already proven to work makes too much sense to the liberals.
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Feb 9, 2014 7:26:09 AM

I saw a similar report, shock.
I want more than 8% of plate capacity the first year. This is an expensive lab project. The promoters can want, but this plant has to produce drop in fuels like it was sold to do or someone else needs to use the grinders.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2014 2:45:39 PM

You want an update? The "Biorefinery" is not making anywhere near as much product as they advertised (they stated they would produce 13 million gallons/year yet only produced less the 900,000 gallons in 2013).

For the full year, Columbus produced just 894,000 gallons of products

Yet another expensive cellulosic biofuel pipedream bought and paid for by the US tax payer...
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2014 9:58:15 PM

This article is dated June2013. Someone find an up to date story about this plant.
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2014 9:17:53 PM

It has to be a more efficient process than making ethanol from corn.
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dassfg
Champion Author Fort Worth

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Message Posted: Feb 6, 2014 8:17:05 AM

So.........
Let's see some results and some stats to review
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ggg452
Champion Author Manitoba

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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2014 10:11:38 AM

How much energy does that take?
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tim1999
Veteran Author Kansas City

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Message Posted: Feb 5, 2014 9:09:50 AM

Hard to imagine this is more sustainable than corn...
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jan 30, 2014 2:50:44 AM

Bring it on.
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oldlords
Rookie Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 5:46:01 PM

driveonwood website is a good place to learn about wood fuel.

[Edited by: oldlords at 7/30/2013 5:47:11 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 5:22:25 PM

Brerrabbitt...

"For all your support of ethanol and many others here who support it you fail to deal with the whole package in favor of blaming everyone else for ethanol not growing at the pace you want it to. There are costs involved to entering a market and those costs are real. As the man says you gotta pay to play."
I agree! We are doing what we can to change things around us. We can't do this on our own though. Everyone has a part! People need to be buying FFV's so that they truly have a choice at the pump. We are working on more locations to offer these choices to consumers. We do what we do because we feel like it's the right thing to do and we LOVE it. It's very challenging at times but it is vey rewarding to feel like we are doing something that is helping others!
Brerrabbitt...you must be with Valero. Out of our experience with oil companies....Valero has some very good people working for them and our experience with Valero was a positive one. We are still very fond of a couple of people over there!


[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/30/2013 5:27:32 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 3:53:13 PM

"I find this hard to believe. If there were no profits there would be no retail outlets... "

Actually running a Retail Fueling business is in fact a very tough way to make a living. But it is in no way solely the fault of the oil companies. Everyone wants to say it is but it's not.

What has killed Branded Retail sites and to a great extent independent retail sites are the Big Box retailers, and the big unbranded chains.

Big Box guys are Costco, Wal Mart, Sams, and Grocery Chains. Independent Retailers are Sheets, Wa Wa, Quick Trip, Raceway, etc.

The big Box guys see fuel sales as a lure. Offer cheap gas (basically at their cost) and make it even cheaper with a rewards program or a gift card you can only buy in the store. In this manner the cost of operating the fueling site is a write off as advertising. These guys spend collectively billions of dollars a year on print ads, tv ads, radio ads and direct mailers to get you in their store. Operating a fuel site at a loss is just another advertising expense to them.

The big non branded players run tight gas margins because they are really retailers. As a kid growing up we had U tote Um's and 7/11's that sold no gas but were true convience stores. Those are gone, every convience retailer now has gas. So these guys basically run super sized convience stores with thousands of skues (products) and are mini grocery outlets that run 30% plus gross profit margins.

So if you are a small independent fuel retailer you get beat up on gas sales by the big box guys and beat up on by the convience retailers when it comes to selling beer, cigerettes and candy.

Yes it is very hard to own and operate a small independent fuel retail site.

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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 3:18:37 PM

"Brerrabbitt....I hear you. I understand your point on paying too much. The oil companies that we are buying from are blending the E85, so they are keeping the RINs. Too bad they won't pass on some of the RINs credits to the customers. The oil companies should be loving E85 right now because they are making 85 cents a gallon just in the RINs!"

See unless I know where you buy and who you buy from I cannot agree with this statement. If you buy from Valero then I can say they are not profiting by selling a RIN credit for 85 cents because they need the credit for themselves, so in that case they are merely avoiding paying it to acquire the credit. If you buy from a marketer (and there are plenty of them) that does not own a refinery then he is keeping the 85 cents. If you buy from an oil company that has refineries then he may be able to sell some of his excess RIN's but the reality is as the amount of ethanol required to be blended increases more and more per the RFA then they cannot sell any because they need them to cover their refining operations.

The true profit is made by marketing types with no refineries who sell fuel with ethanol in it. They are in turn selling them to the big oil companies and keeping all the money. As far as the RIN's credits for E-10 goes what is happening now is that the refiners that need them will sell the gas for current market less the value of the RIN credit and the buyer who actually blends the fuel gives the physical credit back to the refiner, so the cost of the RIN is reflected to the economics of the refiner. The consumming public does not see this but I can guareentee it is happening. As for the e-85 credits at 85 cents there are so few of those based on the amount of it sold that i amounts to very little.

The real point of the whole discussion is simply this, ethanol blended fuel (the higher the better) has an economic advantage over gas beyond blending economics that includes the value of the RINs credit.

"And if I start a snappy young passenger train company that carries commuters across the country, all I need to do is build some new railroads! I sure hope the 250-year-old rail industry will cooperate with me."

Could not have come up with a better example if I tried. Yes build some new railroads! Why? Because the exsisting rails are old and designed for a different purpose. New commuter rails need to be able to handle high speed trains not the slower heavier freight trains that run on them today. Just like gasoline terminals are attached to pipelines designed to carry hydrocarbons not ethanol and the tankage at the terminals are designed for hydrocarbons not ethanol and the local, state and federal permits in place are for 10% ethanol blends and tankage based on that, not e-15 and higher all the way to e-85. Yes the federal government can mandate ethanol usage and force companies to go that way, however those companies will resist having to spend millions if not billions of dollars on those facilities. Also remember that the vast majority of pipelines and terminals in this country are not owned by oil companies. They are owned by independent companies that transport fuels. They are companies you are probably not familiar with, like Magellan, Nu Star, Colonial Pipeline, Teppco, Buckeye, Kinder Morgan, etc. So how does ethanol not have to pay the costs of infrastructure because like it or not the oil industry has had to pay those costs for almost a hundred years, but now you are suggesting that ethanol get a financial pass and not have to pay the same costs to enter the market?

For all your support of ethanol and many others here who support it you fail to deal with the whole package in favor of blaming everyone else for ethanol not growing at the pace you want it to. There are costs involved to entering a market and those costs are real. As the man says you gotta pay to play.

[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 7/30/2013 3:23:13 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 3:11:18 PM

"There is little profit on the retail side for gas or ethanol. Sometimes there is NO margin in gas."

I find this hard to believe. If there were no profits there would be no retail outlets...

If what you say is true about ethanol being so much cheaper then gasoline, then I find it even harder to believe that there is little profit margin in the sale of it...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/30/2013 3:15:09 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 2:54:44 PM

Hannie....the Oil Companies are making the big profits, not the retailers. They could allow us to make more then they do...but they don't!
Have to get back to work!



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/30/2013 2:56:22 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 2:52:26 PM

Hannie....there is profit on fuel at times and sometimes we are selling at cost. The big players like Quick Trip set the prices in our area and we have to follow them. They are also getting better deals on their fuel.

The trick is to grow your volume. The more gas we sell, the more money that we make so we try to stay very competitive. This is not a business that just anybody can get into. There is the fuel side and the convenience store side. These are like 2 different businesses but if one isn't working then it can put you out of business fast.



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/30/2013 2:53:29 PM EST]
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 2:46:35 PM

Shockjock you just CANT POSSIBLY be that cluless. It has to be some kind of act.

There is no profit in selling any fuel at retail level. That's why they all sell smokes, beer, scratch offs, powerball, hot dogs, pizza, big gulp 500 oz colas, ad nauseum. That's where the profit is.

GC correct me if I am wrong on that please.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/30/2013 2:48:16 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 2:45:49 PM

There is little profit on the retail side for gas or ethanol. Sometimes there is NO margin in gas. That's why you have to be really good and successful with the convenience store part. When there is no margin in fuel you have to rely on your inside profits to survive. Anybody will tell you that retail is not easy! There are all kinds of factors to consider when you have a station. Pumps break down and fixing and maintaining them are VERY expensive. People drive into your pumps, your store, etc... There is always something going on. If anybody has ever seen the Tom Hanks movie "The money Pit" , that's how I feel about the retail fuel business sometimes. These stores a very time intensive, labor intensive and expensive to keep up and running to the standard that we require of ourselves.The oil companies figured this out and got out of the retail business. Don't hate your retailers if they occasionally make a little fuel profit, this helps them carry over to the times when they are not!


[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/30/2013 2:48:27 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 2:35:29 PM

"Because NOT even the oil companies want to be in the retail business!"

So, are you saying GC that there is no profit in selling ethanol?
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 1:51:00 PM

Shocky said..

"So why are ethanol producers not building their own retail sites, and developing their own infrastructure?'

Some are and running great. I am hoping for more. There are two in my state now, running multiple retail outlets. Also some in other midwest states.

And I go to them every time I can and buy as much E-85 as my cars will use. But Jock has a point more producers need to run stations and feature and promote E-85.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/30/2013 1:54:19 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 1:17:57 PM

Brerrabbitt....I hear you. I understand your point on paying too much. The oil companies that we are buying from are blending the E85, so they are keeping the RINs. Too bad they won't pass on some of the RINs credits to the customers. The oil companies should be loving E85 right now because they are making 85 cents a gallon just in the RINs!

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/30/2013 1:19:27 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 1:00:07 PM

Shocky said..

"So why are ethanol producers not building their own retail sites, and developing their own infrastructure?'

Because NOT even the oil companies want to be in the retail business! That's why the majority of them sold their locations off. The retail business is tough and there is little margin...the oil companies figured that out and got out of retail stores.



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/30/2013 1:00:50 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 12:44:28 PM

"And if I start a snappy young passenger train company that carries commuters across the country, all I need to do is build some new railroads!"

Exactly!

"I sure hope the 250-year-old rail industry will cooperate with me"

For one the rail industry is not 250 years old. Secondly why should they?

"The oil industry is not "just another competitor" and to imply that is silliness."

Why?

"It was developed and tied into our infrastructure early on, before the boundaries of many states were even drawn."

Ethanol has been around as long as gasoline, longer actually... So your point is?

" If a flood comes and ruins the foundation of your house, you can lift it up and build a better one."

So why are ethanol producers not building their own retail sites, and developing their own infrastructure?

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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 12:11:36 PM

darwinfinch....WELCOME to this site! Your posts are music to my ears!

"Of course it's a necessary evil. That's why farming, agriculture, and ethanol production are still reliant on fossil fuels to create renewable alternatives. The foundations of the future are built upon the rooftops of the past. Understood.But do you see the oil industry participating in forward movement? In working with regulations and researchers to transition into clean renewable energy? The opposite is apparent: oil companies pay millions of dollars each year to market against future innovation. They pay lobbyists and advertisers to chip away at public opinion, entrench the status quo, and drag their heels against the momentum of sustainable thinking."

"The oil industry is not "just another competitor" and to imply that is silliness. It was developed and tied into our infrastructure early on, before the boundaries of many states were even drawn. It's deeply rooted, and 75% of Americans agree that we don't want it around forever. That means something (the EPA and RFS) has to come along and start untangling the countless privileges, overlaps, and embedded systems that came with founding a society on oil. If a flood comes and ruins the foundation of your house, you can lift it up and build a better one. Or you can let it crumble and rot because, well, "it was there first".

What you said!!!!!


[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/30/2013 12:16:12 PM EST]
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 11:59:15 AM

I think the reason the 2 sides of this argument don't connect in the middle is because one group is speaking about future vision, and problem solving on a larger scale (regulatory, multi-industry, whole-sum economy thinking), while another group has its nose down in the nitty gritty details of running the accounting balance for oil refiners and related businesses.

I'm not saying either is good or bad. I think it's a fundamental difference in the perception of CHANGE. I do know that for someone whose job it is to dig into details and make incremental decisions every day, someone talking about "big picture" changes that could potentially result in thousands of smaller changes and shifts... can be very frustrating. I think that's where oil refiners and gas stations are today. At the same time, for someone who advocates for a paradigm shift in the status quo, the people with their hands on the levers and their eyes 2 inches from the spreadsheets can be extremely frustrating because there is a resistance to change that prevents things from moving forward. I think that's where the renewable fuel movement is today.

I will say that for as often as I use the term "heeldragger" in a negative sense, I often forget that there are people who don't think of that as a bad thing.

Just a random thought.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 11:48:26 AM

"all that needs to happen is the ethanol industry to build some terminals, buy some gas, blend it into E-85 and sell it to retail sites."
-brerrabbitTX

"if ethanol were competitive then there would be no need for the government to intervene"
-Shockjock1961

And if I start a snappy young passenger train company that carries commuters across the country, all I need to do is build some new railroads! I sure hope the 250-year-old rail industry will cooperate with me.

The oil industry is not "just another competitor" and to imply that is silliness. It was developed and tied into our infrastructure early on, before the boundaries of many states were even drawn. It's deeply rooted, and 75% of Americans agree that we don't want it around forever. That means something (the EPA and RFS) has to come along and start untangling the countless privileges, overlaps, and embedded systems that came with founding a society on oil. If a flood comes and ruins the foundation of your house, you can lift it up and build a better one. Or you can let it crumble and rot because, well, "it was there first".

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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 11:41:03 AM

"it ethanol were competitive then there would be no need for the government to intervene, there would be no need for the mandated use of it. That there is the single most damning piece of evidence on how uncompetitive ethanol is... "

While Shock and I seem to be on the same side of the coin, I do tend to disagree with him on things at times, however from a free market economist's view based on the economics classes I took as an undergraduate and graduate student I can say that he has made no truer a statement than the one above.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 11:36:31 AM

RINs credits are not something that the oil industry ever supported. The only way to assure that ethanol was blended to the levels the RFA required was to hold someone responsible for gathering them up at the end of the year and reporting them. It was decided that refiners who made the gas would be the responsible parties. Now if you could blend ethanol into gas at the refinery that would make perfect sense, however you cannot transport ethanol or ethanol blended fuels through almost any pipeline in the country. Therfore you have to blend them right before they get on the truck for delivery to the station.

So the RFA holds the refinery responsible for gathering the credits, but the credits are created when the gas goes on the truck. That is a problem. There are marketing companies who have nothing to do with oil companies who buy gas and diesel from refiners, transport it, buy ethanol from the producers of it and blend to create the credits. They sell to the refiners who need the credits. You keep saying that the situation was created by the oil industry, no the situation was created by the RFA when it said you have to use ethanol in certain quantities and the refiner is the one who has to account for it all or pay a fine. Refiners pushed for transfers and trading because without them they would be short the credits every year.Had Big Oil been succesful in blocking the RFA, there would be no RFA. What it does do is give high ethanol blends a competative advantage well beyond the price of ethanol vs the price of gas, and it strongly encourages refiners positioned on the coast an incentive to export product.

You completely miss the economic and cost argument. The next ethanol is bio mass. It is expensive, and yes technology may make it more cost friendly in the future, but not today. Secondly there are costs for additional ethanol tanks. If the entire US fueling industry were to be forced to sell e-15 exclusivly tomorrow they could not do it. Tanks at terminals were designed around a 10% blend. More tanks would be needed, more railcars, since most ethanol moves by rail. Tanks require permit, site improvements, etc. That is a lot of money. Realistically you cannot compare a gallon of ethanol to a gallon of gas and say ethanol is cheaper lets go! You have to look at the delivery system, the tankage, the number of railcars, the output of the industry, etc.

It is not "soundbite" answers, it is a whole lot more complicated, but these are the details that never get discussed, but these are the details that determine what really happens.
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