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Author Topic: Ethanol Free gas Back to Topics
boman

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New Orleans

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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 8:37:39 AM

Looking for ethanol free gas stations in Slidell,La.
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JohnDeere005
Rookie Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Aug 9, 2013 10:11:24 PM

To all my friends:...go to ......best wish to all!!
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cools1611
Champion Author Providence

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2013 10:48:00 PM

Yes
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jay93LA
Champion Author New Orleans

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2013 8:22:32 AM

yes
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 11:59:04 PM

Got nearly 16k on my 200, at least 2/3's of which is on some higher than 10% blend.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 10:03:26 PM

"Americans have successfully driven more than 1 trillion (that's 1,000,000,000,000) miles trouble-free miles on ethanol-blended gas"

Let's see some proof of this claim...

Of course you won't be able to provide any...
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 5:15:25 PM

Americans have successfully driven more than 1 trillion (that's 1,000,000,000,000) miles trouble-free miles on ethanol-blended gas.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 1:26:55 PM

There are too many people like Shockjock1961. That is why nothing ever gets done and the status quo stays. The dude takes the meaning of pessimism to never before seen levels. Shocky, crawl out of your oily cess pool and look around you at the possibilities, there is alot of good stuff happening, sheesh.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 8/3/2013 1:27:11 PM EST]
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 11:26:06 AM

Oil's oppressive tentacles reach beyond alcohol fuels to other biofuels...

Overlooked Biofuel Source

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 8/3/2013 11:26:50 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2013 1:58:35 PM

"And check out ethanol fuel cell technology... it's pretty awesome."

And VERY expensive, which is why you haven't seen anything like that developed commercially. Of course they have been claiming commercial application is just a year or two done the road for 40 years now, just like cellulosic ethanol....
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2013 11:05:22 AM

And check out ethanol fuel cell technology... it's pretty awesome. You can buy little educational kits that demonstrate how they work. The output is CO2, water, and some kind of acid. There's a video on YouTube of two students playing with one.

[Edited by: darwinfinch at 7/26/2013 11:05:30 AM EST]
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2013 9:53:17 AM

Shocky says "burning it in an internal combustion engine poeduces severla organic pollutants, as well as ozone and nitrous oxide"
Actually, it's the gasoline in the ethanol that creates these. Ethanol combustion produces carbon dioxide and water.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2013 9:40:26 AM

"Explain your reasoning behind this ludicrous statement."

I believe I already have. Ethanol is not renewable because it utilizes fossil fuels in it's production. It's is not clean for the same reason, plus burning it in an internal combustion engine poeduces severla organic pollutants, as well as ozone and nitrous oxide...

"Okay, I can agree with that."

I'm glad you have seen the light of truth...
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 7:55:26 PM

Shocky said...

"More importantly, you are incorrect, because ethanol is neither clean nor renewable..."Really Shocky?

Explain your reasoning behind this ludicrous statement. Just because you try to convince everyone that the sky is green doesn't make it so!


[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/25/2013 7:56:39 PM EST]
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 6:34:27 PM

"A number of organic pollutants are created (to include formaldehyde) as well as ozone, so you claim is false on that reason alone... "

Formaldehyde is produced from burning gasoline much more than from ethanol combustion.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 5:49:27 PM

Basically, anything oil touches is filthy, now and forever.

Okay, I can agree with that. You win.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 5:38:42 PM

Besides, ethanol is not a "clean" when used in an internal combustion engine. A number of organic pollutants are created (to include formaldehyde) as well as ozone, so you claim is false on that reason alone...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 5:36:08 PM

What does a garden hose have anything to do with ethanol?

That my friend is what you call a faulty analogy...
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 5:33:33 PM

If the green part of your garden hose touches a pile of dog poo while you're washing your car, does that mean the car isn't "clean" when you're done?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 5:14:19 PM

So what you are saying is that the end product can be declared "clean" no matter how dirty or environmentally damaging it is to produce it?

Sounds like a foolish way to define "clean" to me and probably to most other sane individuals...

"The biorefining industry would love to bring in alternative energy sources for its refining processes. Conceptually, this is entirely possible."

So what is stopping biorefineries from using other things then fossil fuels for production. It sounds like you are claiming that someone has a gun to their heads forcing them to use fossil fuels, when the real answer is that they use fossil fuels because they are plentiful and cheap, especially when compared to the alternative fuels they are helping "create"...
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 5:08:14 PM

"If a fuel requires a "dirty" non-renewable substance to be used in it's production, how can it itself be considered clean and renewable?"

Where you're right:

The modern process for creating biofuels is not strictly "clean" because the process incorporates the use of your favorite stuff: oil & goo. These are undeniably dirty and problematic. Thanks for helping emphasize that.

Where you're wrong:

Biofuel, the end product itself IS clean. In this context, "clean" means clean-burning, which it is. Undeniable.

Why you're silly:

Because you're confusing adjectives assigned to the end product with the materials used to create it. By your definition, a bar of soap is not clean, and the red-haired daughter of two brown-haired parents should be called a "brunette".

Getting cleaner every day:

The biorefining industry would love to bring in alternative energy sources for its refining processes. Conceptually, this is entirely possible. In the current reality, however, energy markets are held back by the deep pockets of fossil fuels. If you don't believe that, just look at Big Oil push back on policies like the RFS and wind generation grants. Look at the coal industry lobby against distributed power grids.

Fortunately, the biorefining industry is learning fast. Efficiency is WAY up. Farming equipment is running on biodiesel. No-till farming is reducing fertilizer needs. A refinery uses something like 1/3 as much water as they did in the 80s. Many of them run off waste fuel boilers. Some run off methane collected from landfills. And the cellulosic plants being built today generate enough biogas to power themselves AND their neighboring grain-based plants.

Clean, and getting cleaner every day.

[Edited by: darwinfinch at 7/25/2013 5:09:44 PM EST]
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SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 4:45:51 PM

"After all if a fuel requires a "dirty" non-renewable substance to be used in it's production, how can it itself be considered clean and renewable?"

First, ethanol does not require a ""dirty" non-renewable substance" for manufacture. While fossil fuels are use in some or all of the production, there's nothing that requires ethanol be produced with a ""dirty" non-renewable substance".

Second, even if every drop of fuel used to produce ethanol were petroleum based, you still get more product and energy back than is used to make the product, upwards of 175%.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 4:29:44 PM

I'm not sure why you are bringing up a quote about evidence and logic, since evidence and logic rest on my side.

After all if a fuel requires a "dirty" non-renewable substance to be used in it's production, how can it itself be considered clean and renewable?

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/25/2013 4:31:34 PM EST]
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 4:26:23 PM

"Refineries are forced by Federal law to add ethanol to their fuel, and so are forced to lower the octane of their fuel in order to match the octane levels specified for the grade of fuel they are selling..."
& "Being forced to use ethanol means the base gasoline's octane has to be reduced in order to hit the definitive octane levels."


The terminal in my area only handles 87 octane( no sub octane) blended with 10% ethanol so it's 89 octane.If a gas station receives E10 from this terminal they are selling it at both pumps marked reg 87 octane & midgrade 89. It's perfectly legal to sell fuel with HIGHER octane then what is listed on the pump.Refineries HAVE NOT BEEN FORCED to lower the octane of their fuel . Refineries lower the octane because they can make more money that way blending with lower priced ethanol to make min. 87 octane.
As SoylentGrain correctly pointed out petroleum distillates,that were previously unsuited for gasoline,are or can now be used for fuel thus ethanol expands the fuel supply to lower overall fuel costs.
Q.Does the FTC’s Fuel Rating Rule require the certification and posting of only minimum automotive fuel ratings?
A. Yes. For example, in cases involving gasoline, the octane rating must be shown on the dispenser as a whole or half number. That number must be equal to or less than the number certified to or determined by the gasoline retailer.



[Edited by: tropicalmn at 7/25/2013 4:28:30 PM EST]
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 4:23:45 PM

"If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide that proves they should value evidence? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument would you invoke to prove they should value logic?"
- S. Harris
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 4:20:27 PM

More importantly, you are incorrect, because ethanol is neither clean nor renewable...
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 4:17:02 PM

Well then I assert than I am not actually wrong, only wronger.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 3:54:08 PM

"That doesn't mean biofuels aren't clean and renewable."

Wrong! Why?

Hint: If you find fossil fuels to be unclean and non-renewable, then ethanol also is not renewable since it relies on fossil fuels for it's production...

It may be cleaner (up for debate) and possibly more sunstainable (again up for debate, but it is neither clean nor renewable and it definitely can't provide for more then a fraction of the energy we need and use on a daily basis..

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/25/2013 3:56:32 PM EST]
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 3:37:29 PM

"large amounts of fossil fuels are used in it's production"

True. Thanks to the 150 year monopoly on liquid fuels by Big Oil, we can't found a biofuels industry using 100% biofuels any more than we can pull ourselves into the sky by tugging on our pant loops. That doesn't mean biofuels aren't clean and renewable. And oh by the way the biorefining industry is already 300% more efficient than it was 10 years ago. Can big oil say the same? Hint: no.

Sometimes you have to take a step back to take 3 steps forward. Sometimes you take a punch and give out two. The oil industry burns fossil fuels just to get more fossil fuels.

Metaphor overload: Biorefining is like reaching into an unflushed toiled to grab a gold watch. Oil drilling, on the other hand, is like reaching in just to grab the poop.

[Edited by: darwinfinch at 7/25/2013 3:39:21 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 3:27:30 PM

"because a huge percentage of people want clean renewable fuel"

Well ethanol is neither, since large amounts of fossil fuels are used in it's production...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 3:25:56 PM

"The ethanol mandate was also a way to pursue safe octane boosters without mandating a ban on MTBE"

The ethanol mandate was a way to guarantee increased sales of ethanol, and by extension, corn, plain and simple.

To meet EPA oxygenation requirements for reformulated gasoline (which is only needed in certain areas of the country) you need only a 5% concentration of ethanol.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 3:08:38 PM

I think there is some confusion on ethanol's role as an additive versus as an alternative. Ethanol replaces MTBE as an octane booster just as MTBE replaced lead. In that sense, it's an additive.

But it's also a fuel alternative in it's own right. In E85 you could fairly say that the 15% gasoline is the additive... an octane-lowering additive.

Octane targeting and gasoline quality are, to my understanding, really complicated. I do know that refiners would likely continue to use ethanol over MTBE even without the RFS because it's (surprise) more profitable for oil companies, and doesn't have the environmental liability that MTBE does.

I also think there is confusion about why ethanol is mandated. It's not just because biorefiners and farmers pushed for it (they did), but also because a huge percentage of people want clean renewable fuel. The ethanol mandate was also a way to pursue safe octane boosters without mandating a ban on MTBE the way it was done with lead (it took decades and was a mess). This is one of the concerns over repealing the RFS; that there is really nothing preventing refiners from going back to the days of MTBE. Might as well bring back DDT too.

[Edited by: darwinfinch at 7/25/2013 3:09:54 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 2:28:18 PM

"You're wandering into conspiracy theory territory now..."

No conspiracy theory, simple fact. The corn and ethanol lobby pressured the government to pass the ethanol minimum usage mandate...

Being forced to use ethanol means the base gasoline's octane has to be reduced in order to hit the definitive octane levels. THerefore the corn and ethanol lobby are the ones responsible for the "sub quality" gas being used, because without their minimum usage mandate, the same grade gas would be used as always.

Just another example on how ethanol shills twist and distort the truth to fit their distorted view of reality...
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 2:13:58 PM

"...forced to do so, by the ethanol and corn lobby..."

Actually, MTBE, the environmental horror Big Oil use to blend as an octane enhancer, was voted on and banned by the PEOPLE of many states because it's not safe for anyone or anything. Ethanol is the only readily available, affordable, safe and clean alternative.

Ethanol and corn stepped in to solve the problem after the public raised a red flag. You're wandering into conspiracy theory territory now...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 2:10:16 PM

"I think that it is hilarious that the product that the oil companies have been trying to undermine for years.... now has to be used to boost the octane of their subgrade, sub quality fuel"

Typical case of denial. I has nothing to do with having to do and everything to do with being forced to do so, by the ethanol and corn lobby no less...
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 1:11:50 PM

Subgrade gas coming soon to a neighborhood near you! I think that it is hilarious that the product that the oil companies have been trying to undermine for years.... now has to be used to boost the octane of their subgrade, sub quality fuel. The oil companies found another way to make money! Use subgrade fuel and boost the octane with ethanol. It's all about making more money for the oil companies.

Got to love it!!!!!!!



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/25/2013 1:12:39 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 11:54:24 AM

"and using clean renewable homegrown fuel"

How is it clean and renewable when it depends on fossil fuels for it's production???

" Imagine developing a new kind of screw head that works better but you can't sell them because companies don't make screwdriver heads to fit it"

Or imagine developing a new kind of screw head, but you are only able to produce enough of them to meet a small fraction of demand. Because of this nobody is willing to invest in a new screwdriver that will work with the screwhead. Instead some of the screwdriver companies develop bastardized screwdrivers that kind of work with both screwheads but doesn't work optimally with either one. So the company which makes the new screwhead bribes the government to mandate that a percentage of all screws used must have this new screwhead (even though the majority of people don't want to use the new screwheads due to it's limitations). Then when it's discovered that there is a new, exotic way to produce the new screwheads, the bribed government mandates that a certain number of these screws made with the new production method MUST be used every year, even though it is impractical and uneconomical to make them with this new method, and the government penalizes anyone who doesn't use the mandatory amount, even though the supply is non-existent.

That's what you have with ethanol....
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 11:25:16 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "So if you want to bitch about lower quality gasoline being used to produce 87 octane gasoline, then blame the ethanol and corn lobby since they are the ones who are responsible for forcing the use of their product.."

This statement only proves that you are simply clueless. If Ethanol is not used then paint thinners are used to boost the octane rating.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 11:03:32 AM

"what is the mpg difference with ethanol and without ethanol gas?"

It depends on your vehicle. For some (pre-1970s) vehicles, the difference is significant (5-10%). For many (1990 and older), the difference is in the 1-2% range, meaning that you lose a little mileage but you're still saving money (and using clean renewable homegrown fuel). It is actually possible to design an engine to run on high ethanol blends and achieve higher mpg than the traditional gasoline engine (which has pretty much peaked in efficiency technology), but this transition is a tricky one for automakers, especially as Big Oil works to corrode stability in the alternative fuels market and investors shy away from going in that direction. It's really quite a conundrum. Imagine developing a new kind of screw head that works better but you can't sell them because companies don't make screwdriver heads to fit it. And the reason they don't sell them is because you aren't yet selling enough screw heads to make it worth their while. !
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Primepower
All-Star Author Washington

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 10:08:07 AM

what is the mpg difference with ethanol and without ethanol gas
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 9:13:37 AM

"In order to produce 87 octane fuel with being forced to add 10% ethanol, your gasoline has to be slightly less then 84 octane.... "

And this is the reason why ethanol expands the fuel supply to lower overall fuel costs. Petroleum distillates, that were previously unsuited for gasoline, are can now be used for fuel.
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smugutu1234
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 9:08:39 AM

Check on line for stations.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2013 8:28:40 AM

"What kind of logic is that?"

Simple...

Refineries are forced by Federal law to add ethanol to their fuel, and so are forced to lower the octane of their fuel in order to match the octane levels specified for the grade of fuel they are selling...

In order to produce 87 octane fuel with being forced to add 10% ethanol, your gasoline has to be slightly less then 84 octane....

So if you want to bitch about lower quality gasoline being used to produce 87 octane gasoline, then blame the ethanol and corn lobby since they are the ones who are responsible for forcing the use of their product..



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/25/2013 8:34:55 AM EST]
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 24, 2013 1:27:57 PM

Worked great for Ford, tire blows out or comes apart and one of their suv's rolls over, blame Firestone.........even though the truck is rollover prone, factory tire pressure is substandard, then the drivers wouldn't pay attention to tire pressure unless they were completely flat.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 24, 2013 12:15:02 PM

oil companies sell sub grade gas -> blame corn growers and ethanol producers

What kind of logic is that?

peanut butter company has e-coli recall -> blame a jelly company
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 24, 2013 10:51:07 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "You can thank the corn growers and the ethanol producers for that..."

Why is that? Is there a possibility that you are simply clueless on this subject as well?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 24, 2013 9:39:25 AM

"It's going to be harder to find as soon as the oil companies start using sub grade gas and boosting the octane with ethanol. I think it's coming soon!"

You can thank the corn growers and the ethanol producers for that...
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 24, 2013 8:31:08 AM

litesong wrote: "It is not rocket science or hard to understand, that 100% gasoline proves best in engines designed & built to use 100% gasoline. But it is good 100% gasoline science that 100% gasoline works best in engines designed & built to use 100% gasoline."

How exactly are the modern engines build to run on gasoline, a mixture of about 150 different chemicals including paint thinners, yet they are not designed to run on Ethanol?
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: Jul 23, 2013 11:21:18 PM

It's going to be harder to find as soon as the oil companies start using sub grade gas and boosting the octane with ethanol. I think it's coming soon!
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minookaband
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 23, 2013 10:02:54 PM

wish we had ethanol free gas in my area!
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litesong
Rookie Author Gary

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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2013 9:11:28 PM

I have many years of accurate records using 10% ethanol blends for 3 cars. I also have many years of accurate records after switching to 100% gasoline(no ethanol blends). All 3 cars show mpg increases, after switching to 100% gasoline, of 8%, 7% & 5%. All engines run smoother, quieter, & with a trace extra low rpm torque.

It is not rocket science or hard to understand, that 100% gasoline proves best in engines designed & built to use 100% gasoline. But it is good 100% gasoline science that 100% gasoline works best in engines designed & built to use 100% gasoline.
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