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Author Topic: POLL: Americans are tired of volatile gas prices, want more renewable fuel Back to Topics
gamechanger2011

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 10:36:34 AM


"Our June 2013 public opinion poll gauged the consumer impacts of constantly fluctuating gas prices, revealing what Americans think is the solution: renewable fuel.
75% want more renewable fuel options at gas stations
3 in 5 blame the oil industry for high gas prices
73% favor the Renewable Fuel Standard"
POLL: Americans are tired of volatile gas prices, want more renewable fuel
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 9:17:47 AM

beachguy46 wrote: "ethanol production causes more greenhouse gas than it saves"

Please explain your claim while providing exact details. Is it possible that you are here only to spread Big Oil Propaganda?
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FrankLee1
All-Star Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 6:30:14 PM

Prove it.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 11:44:24 AM

This is the most misunderstood part of the regulation. The blender they talk about in this category is not the party that blends ethanol with gas. This blending refers to some in the fuel industry that buys blendstocks from refiners and blends into finished gasoline products. So what this basically says is if you refine gas, import gas, or take components foriegn or domestic and blend it into finished gasoline then you are required to provide credits up to the RVO. An individuals RVO is calculated based on total US fuels sales for a period. You divide the product you refine, blend or import by the total fuel sold for the period and then multiply that percentage times the number of gallons of ethanol the EPA sets as the current years obligation. The RVO obligated parties then must present valid credits equaling the number of their RVO. A lot of sales by refiners are to non obligated parties who then actually transport the gas to terminals and blend it with ethanol. It is at that point that the actual credit is created. So many of the credits created do not belong to the parties that actually need them, the RVO's.

"The RFS program assigns obligated parties (fuel refiners, blenders, and importers) a renewable volume obligation (RVO). The RVO for each party is the volume of renewable fuels it is obligated to sell, based on a percentage of the company's total fuel sales."

So what this means is that the RVO's need the credits, but the blender of record has them. In many cases specifically if a ethanol producer is blending the gas and ethanol then he gets the credit. He sells it for 85 cents on the market. He then has that profit even if he sells the actual e-85 at cost. If he chooses to put some or all of the 85 cents into the market then he has that price advantage. On the other side of the equation the RVO has to buy the credit moving his costs up. So in many instances all things being equal it could give in a closed market area a e-85 seller as much as $1.70 a gallon spread to clear gas and a 1.615 advantage over e-10.

You might not call this a subsidy but if governmental regulation lets you sell something for as much as $1.70 a gallon less than me then I call that a subsidy. Granted no money comes out of the governments pocket but they sure have facilitated a pretty big advantage for you.
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 11:16:36 AM

Shocky...I'm not arguing with Brerrabbitt. Some people like visuals. That's why most good presentations have charts and graphs. It is merely a visual showing the format.



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 8/1/2013 11:17:20 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 11:03:17 AM

"This shows the RIN format...thought it was interesting and might be helpful!"

OK, I don't see how that contradicts anything brerrabbit has stated, in fact it seems to confirm what he has posted..
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 10:15:40 AM

This shows the RIN format...thought it was interesting and might be helpful! From the US Dept. of Energy

DOE explains Renewable Identification Numbers
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 9:25:57 AM

One other thing, the oil companies do not decide the value. If they did do you think they would willingly give e-85 an 85 cent price advantage? Come on get real! The market (which includes all buyers and sellers of credits which is many more players than just oil companies) set the market.

Ask the same question of who sets stock prices? Who sets bond prices? Who sets gold prices? It is an open market and "the market" sets the price.

Penalties far exceed the current value of RIN credits.

[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 8/1/2013 9:27:12 AM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 9:21:01 AM

darwin,
gamechanger has alluded to the fact that some ethanol producers are blendin gas with ethanol to make e-85. That creates a credit. The ethanol company then sells that credit on the market at the best price he can get. Other than being forced by regulation to buy the credit how is the oil industry involved with that? The example I gave of Quick Trip and Valero is another example. You may say quick Trip is an oil company but you would be completely wrong. They are listed as a convience retailer who happens to sell gas. How are they involved in the oil business? They own no refineries (need no credits) no pipelines, no terminals, produce no oil and have nothing to do with it other than buying it to sell at their stations. They sell the credits at the price the can and want.

Your belief and understanding is that these credits are completely controlled by "oil companies" when they are not. The way the RFA was written allows a wide variety of players who participate in the market to create them but also require only a small group of players who "need" them. The only companies needing them are the refiners. This creates the system that allows players in the market to create value that they can use either to make their product cheaper to the consummer without losing an money, or to pocket the money and make bigger profits.

Many like yourself will rail on about oil subsidies and the lack of ethanol subsidies but this scenario has played out to give the high blend ethanol sellers a huge advantage in the marketplace due to regulation. In other words a huge subsidy.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 9:10:45 AM

So the oil industry decides the value, and trades (at that value) amongst its own companies. At no point is the ethanol producer involved in setting this value or profiting from the trades.

Another question:
Presumably the penalties associated with falling short on RINs are what drive the price of RINs up (what companies are willing to pay for them to limit penalties). Any idea what the penalties are?
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:54:01 AM

Simple question:
What industries are pushing the value of RINs from $0.00 (their essential value) to over $1.00?

The value of RIN's have been pushed to their current level as the result of the Renewable Fuels Act, an overall reduction in demand for motor fuel in the US, the blenders of record who create the actual credits (who in many cases are companies and groups who do not need the credits) and the laws of supply and demand. More are needed than are physically available.

All these factors are driving the cost up. But the simple reality is that refiners are asking for the program to be discontinued while the RFA supports the program. But then again if a program creates a currently 85 cent spread for my product to be sold lower than the alternative, then I would support it to.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:47:38 AM

I think the biggest problem in this entire discussion is a lack of understanding of how the RIN credit system works and who generates them as opposed to who needs them.

Without an understanding of how fuel is bought, sold, transported and blended with ethanol in this country the ethanol supporters are reading the rhetoric of the Renewable groups and I can honestly tell you most of what I have read from those groups about how the credits work is just plain wrong.

This debate will continue to spiral out of control until both sides understand the process.

I have read more mis statements, half truths and outright lies concerning this topic than just about any other discussed.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:44:14 AM

Simple question:
What industries are pushing the value of RINs from $0.00 (their essential value) to over $1.00?
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:39:54 AM

So many threads that say the same thing get started here everyday that some responses get shuffled away. In another thread on the RIN topic there are three posts and it is falling rapidly down the board. I thought my response in that thread was germaine to the discussion here:"Lets take a real world case. Quick Trip in Kansas has a lot of stations. They own no refineries. They have no need for RINs credits. Valero sell refined gas in Texas. Quick Trip buys gas from Valero and then ships it to Kansas and delivers it to third party terminals. There Quick Trip blends the gas with ethanol and creates the credit. Then not needing the credit they go on the open market and sell them. In that same market Valero is forced to buy those credits to cover the gas they refined and sold to Quick Trip.

Now do you think Valero who is short credits every year thinks this is a good system?

This is the reality of the market. This is what is happening. Your answer, easy just blend more etrhanol into the gas up to 15% and you have more credits. Problem is Quick Trip is the one who blends it, not Valero, so how can Valero effect a higher blend? If quick Trip wants the value of the credit to stay high for their profitability why would they ever want to create more RINs credits that would devalue the ones they have?"
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:28:52 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "As I said, without mandates there would be no RIN's. With no RIN's gasoline would be cheaper..."

Ignorance is bliss. That also explains why you are laughing so much on this forum.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:28:19 AM

"According to OPIS, recent prices for E85 at Iowa terminals were about $2.77 per gallon, while Absolute Energy listed the price for its E85 at only $1.93 per gallon earlier this week."

But stop and consider how they are able to do this. If someone was not paying them 85 cents per gallon of e-85 they blended then they could not offer the product for so much less. The people driving the market and buying the RIN credits are the refiners who are short credits and have to have them to to avoid the fines that the RFA charges them if they don't have enough credits.

Despite all the rhetoric for who demanded RIN trading, the credit system, etc. the economic reality is this blenders have them, refiners need them and the market for them has pushed to up over a dollar a gallon. The price that RINs trade for is an artificial advantage that has been granted the high blend ethanol fuels market.

The refiners pushed for the credit transfer system simply because it was clear based on the RFA and the way the market works that the people creating the credits would not be the same people who needed them thus the trading provision was put in the RFA. Refiners did not see it as an opportunity to make money, the saw it as a necessity to acquire the credits or otherwise face paying huge fines each year.

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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:06:15 AM

" “The blender – the seller of the RIN – can and should pass the value of the RIN through to consumers."

In other words RIN's make ethanol cheaper while raising the price of gasoline...

As I said, without mandates there would be no RIN's. With no RIN's gasoline would be cheaper...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 8/1/2013 8:06:48 AM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 11:15:00 PM

“Big Oil consistently touts the line that buying RINs equates to higher gas prices, but reality proves otherwise,” stated IRFA Executive Director Monte Shaw. “The blender – the seller of the RIN – can and should pass the value of the RIN through to consumers. In fact, Iowa ethanol plants are doing just that. By offering higher blends like E85 directly to retailers, Iowa ethanol plants are passing along the RIN savings and hoping that retailers will reflect the lower wholesale prices at the pump.”

"One example is Absolute Energy, a 115 million gallon per year ethanol plant near the Iowa-Minnesota border. Absolute Energy is now offering E85, a fuel blend containing 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, directly to retailers and is passing on the RIN value generated by blending ethanol.

According to OPIS, recent prices for E85 at Iowa terminals were about $2.77 per gallon, while Absolute Energy listed the price for its E85 at only $1.93 per gallon earlier this week.

“If Big Oil companies want to sell RINs to each other, stick the money in their pockets, and then use that as an excuse to raise gasoline prices, we can’t stop them,” added Shaw. “But we can expose the truth. For every RIN buyer, there is a RIN seller. And if the fuel market is competitive, then the value of the RIN should ultimately end up reducing the pump price for consumers. In Iowa we’re cutting out the middleman to ensure that happens.”

A RIN, or renewable identification number, is a free credit earned by the blender of ethanol that can then be sold on the open market to oil refiners, which use the credits to demonstrate compliance with the federal Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS)."

Contrary to Big Oil’s Claims, RINs Should Save Consumers Money
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 11:04:58 PM

There's 2 sides to this story! I know who I'm going to believe!
"How the oil industry is manipulating the RIN market: “That oil companies are willing to pay $1 or more for a RIN, just to avoid buying ethanol at 70 cents per gallon less than gasoline and offering consumers safe, tested, and affordable blends such as E15 and E85, should tell Congress everything it needs to know about the RFS: it is needed now, more than ever. The lack of transparency in the RIN trading marketplace leaves open the possibility that unscrupulous traders or even oil companies could create skewed transactions for the purpose of manipulating the RIN market for financial gain or to make a political point. If Congress reduces or repeals the RFS, it rewards oil companies’ bad behavior, ensures they will control 90 percent or more of the gasoline market, and forces consumers to pay more for dirty fuel by restricting their access to more affordable and cleaner blends such as E15 and E85.”ACE shows Congress how Big Oil is manipulating the RIN marke
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:59:17 PM

Typical oil companies talking out of both sides of their mouths!

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/31/2013 11:00:11 PM EST]
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RedRider1OK
All-Star Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:57:00 PM

Valero's chief wants ethanol rules dumped

Unfortunately Valero is not blending enough and are having to purchase approx. 750 million dollars of RINS this year.



[Edited by: RedRider1OK at 7/31/2013 10:59:47 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:51:28 PM

Ever heard of Valero Renewables. Valero owns 10 ethanol plants now. Actually Valero is more pro alternative fuels then most oil companies.

So Valero is blending E85 and collecting RIN's for blending and then selling them! They are actually making money on RIN's
Valero Renewables

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/31/2013 10:53:05 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:48:09 PM

"Eliminate the RFS/RINS program and fuel prices will drop. How do you think Valero will make up a 700 million dollar hit this year for buying stupid RINS?

Do you even know how RIN's work Rerider? If RIN's are at $1.00 then Valero is getting to make 85 cents for every gallon of E85 that they blend!



[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 7/31/2013 10:49:15 PM EST]
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:44:03 PM

Rider10k favors that ethanol not survive.

If that happens, the vast majority of citizens, who are not in Red's industry or one of a hand full of CEOs from food inc, will lose alot. A miniscule few will gain. They have all the money and absolutely no concern for facts, or for the citizens of this nation.
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RedRider1OK
All-Star Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:26:12 PM

Eliminate the RFS/RINS program and fuel prices will drop. How do you think Valero will make up a 700 million dollar hit this year for buying stupid RINS? Want to guess what the other refiners are doing right now to make up for similar losses caused by having to purchase RINS? Duh...

Mandate more ethanol...mandate more RIN purchasing...result... higher fuel prices.

Why not let the consumers decide what they want to purchase? Ethanol? No ethanol? Why not? Ethanol would not survive without the mandate.



[Edited by: RedRider1OK at 7/31/2013 10:29:12 PM EST]
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:19:08 PM

Get rid of RedRider10K's monopoly of lies by using E-85 to lower gas prices NOW.

Get rid of the many cases of engine damage lie that is nothing but hypothetical deception. It's never actually happened.

You will never lower gas prices any other way than to kick gasoline off of its throneship by using any and all available alternatives.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/31/2013 10:24:36 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 9:31:50 PM

RedRider1OK wrote: "GET RID OF THE RFS AND LOWER FUEL PRICES NOW!"

Ask your Big Oil buddies to lower the gas prices back below $2 and lets see if Ethanol can still compete. Stop barking under the wrong tree.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 7/31/2013 9:32:31 PM EST]
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RedRider1OK
All-Star Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 7:32:16 PM

If Americans want more renewable fuel then get rid of the mandates for it.
Ethanol and other renewable fuels should not be mandated if demand is requiring it.

GET RID OF THE RFS AND LOWER FUEL PRICES NOW!
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 6:59:21 PM

oilpan4 wrote: "And are they going to do anything about it? No"

Maybe they are or maybe they aren't yet. So what?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 7/31/2013 7:04:00 PM EST]
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 6:56:10 PM

"Are Americans tired of Big Oil Greed? Yes "

And are they going to do anything about it? No
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oilpan4
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 6:54:44 PM

"Oh, wait, its called hydrogen."

Hydrogen is "renewable"?

Please explain your reasoning...

Yes please do.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 6:30:47 PM

In my personal opinion, the question in this poll is a very easy one to understand.

Are Americans tired of Big Oil Greed? Yes
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 5:31:47 PM

I searched for sometime and could not find the actual questions used in the survey so I put very little confidence in the outcome. Took a couple testing classes in College and based on how the questions are asked and worded you can skew the outcome greatly. There is a whole industry built around designing survey questions to lead to the intended outcome. I also question it from the very title of the link which is repeated in the Press release POLL: Americans are tired of volatile gas prices, want more renewable fuel.

I can then word a question that says basically, If the increased use of renewable fuels would create less volitility in fuels prices and lower your overall cost of fuel are you in favor of it?

Really easy in the end to design guareenteed outcomes if you think about it.



[Edited by: brerrabbitTX at 7/31/2013 5:33:08 PM EST]
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 5:24:38 PM

dczh,

There is no one replacement. I am all for natural gas for use in automobiles, as well as alcohol.
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dczh
Veteran Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 4:45:53 PM

Quit messing with ethanol and go to CNG. Unless someone comes up with an engine that burns anything form gasoline to cng to propane to burbon to gas from the city dump, etc. then CNG is the best prospect right now
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 11:26:21 AM

Yes, blame it on ethanol. I got a flat tire and I'm sure it was because of ethanol. The cord on my 40 year old lawnmower broke and guess what? There was E10 fuel in it at the time.
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thirstyV8suv
All-Star Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 8:37:51 AM

Ethanol credits (aka: RINs) may actually be causing volatility in fuel prices. According to a source in the article below RINs are adding 10 to 30 cents to the cost of a gallon of diesel and unleaded.

http://www.platts.com/latest-news/oil/NewYork/RINs-are-a-disaster-for-US-consumers-PBF-Energy-21944290

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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 7, 2013 5:02:35 PM

" Oh, wait, its called hydrogen."

Hydrogen is "renewable"?

Please explain your reasoning...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/7/2013 5:02:58 PM EST]
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Jul 7, 2013 3:12:20 PM

"OIL SKYROCKETS TODAY DUE TO PROTESTS IN EGYPT"

In your fantasy world oil prices do not affect ethanol prices? That you have good Marxist farmers and ethanol producers who will not raise their prices when their competitors' prices rise? Pure fantasy.
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GrumpyCat
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Message Posted: Jul 7, 2013 3:08:08 PM

While ethanol production consumes such vast quantities of natural gas to fire the distillery and produce fertilizer for corn I'm still waiting for a REAL RENEWABLE FUEL to appear. Oh, wait, its called hydrogen.

Don't say, "Oh, but we could use solar reflectors to power the boilers..." DO IT.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 6, 2013 1:16:59 PM

"And if we suddenly stop using it, the farmers will reduce what they grow and we'll stl have the same amount of corn to work with for non fuel purposes"

They sure are not going to let there lands go fallow (un less of course the government starts handing welfare payments because they choose not to work). That means the non-lazy, and smart ones will grow other crops reducing food prices...
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WhiskeyBurner
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Message Posted: Jul 4, 2013 11:42:14 AM

And if we suddenly stop using it, the farmers will reduce what they grow and we'll stl have the same amount of corn to work with for non fuel purposes. Or we could just have farmers grow all the corn they make for no profit (again), crash corn prices worldwide (again), then set them up with shiney new "Wellfair Bentleys, like oil has been getting for years.

[Edited by: WhiskeyBurner at 7/4/2013 11:49:02 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 11:49:53 PM

"Yes, and corn is grown yearly, not mined from limited sources"

It's currently taking over 40% of the harvested crop to provide a very small fraction of the liquid fuel we use. Hardly seems to be a solution....
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 11:13:52 PM

Yes, and corn is grown yearly, not mined from limited sources.
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ggg452
Champion Author Manitoba

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 1:52:42 PM

Renewable???? Corn is food.
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 12:59:31 PM

Figures, I was going to put a few gallons of premium in the 200 until I could make it over to one of my usual E85 stops......... I knew there was going to be an excuse to crank up the prices by the 4th too!
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 12:52:10 PM

OIL SKYROCKETS TODAY DUE TO PROTESTS IN EGYPT

Isn't it great to be dependent on this crap?

Isn't it great that most of you believe the oil companies and their lies?

Don't stop believin' Hold onto that feee-eee laaang. Street lights, people wo ohhh whoaooooo.....



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/3/2013 12:55:24 PM EST]
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gasgzzlr13
Veteran Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 8:42:56 AM

YES, for the simple fact that it could be the only leverage we could hold against all the Fat-Cats who make us pay criminal prices every day at the gas pumps because there is no other alternative.
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 1, 2013 10:51:43 PM

Not nearly as bad as gas and oil are, that's some of the reasons for me to switch, it tends to be way more stable at the pump.
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borsht
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Message Posted: Jul 1, 2013 1:49:46 PM

gamechanger -Are you suggesting the price of corn is non-volatile?
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Chazzer
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Message Posted: Jul 1, 2013 1:23:35 PM

That's for sure!
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