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Author Topic: Choose Ethanol this July 4th. Back to Topics
goldseeker

Champion Author
West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2013 3:49:06 AM

Ethanol prices are likely to continue to slide....and just in time for July 4th.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Jul 5, 2013 12:54:23 PM

One other thing, the whole idea of liability for E-15 damaging vehicles is really a chicken and egg problem. Did the auto industry say no first causing the oil industry to agree and hop on the bandwagon, or did the oil industry not wanting to sell less gas prompt the auto companies to not say yes to E-15? Who cried the sky is falling first?
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Jul 5, 2013 12:50:31 PM

Let me clarify a couple things, when I say fuel seller, I am referring to the oil companies that sell to the individual sites, not the retailers. I can tell you when lawsuits are filed the plantiff goes after them because that's where the money is. 13,000 stations could generate a huge financial liability.

Second the Iowa bill is at the end of the day very narrowly focused in reality. It has two general goals one of which is actually anti ethanol. The bill looks to allow sites to continue to sell clear 87 gas with no ethanol because in that area of the country there is still a solid 30 to 35% of the market that demands clear (ethanol free) gas. The second goal is to allow customers to buy clear gas and take it away from the terminal in order to blend ethanol somewhere else. In this way the buyer of the clear fuel which at another location puts the 10% ethanol in the gas then gets the RIN credit which they can sell back to the refiners who need them. I can tell you from experience when that happens in 9 out of 10 cases he does not put that value on the street by lowering his pricing, he just puts the value in his pocket.

I am not dismissing the Iowa bill just merely telling you that the reason behind it is not what the RFA and other ethanol supporters believe it is. It's about money! More in the pockets of the retail sites than the oil companies pocket. However understand the value paid by the oil company for the RIN credit will still be in the price because over all the refining industry in the US is short RIN's and must purchase them to avoid penalties and fines.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jul 5, 2013 12:28:52 PM

So, to answer the question as best as possible since I am not a fuel seller...

I would do what was necessary to avoid liabilities WHILE working hard at promoting good ideas. Zarco in Kansas is doing the right thing (Google this if unaware). The new legislation in Iowa are helping right things too.

I believe you need to work in the environment you are given, and try to change it if necessary.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/5/2013 12:30:48 PM EST]
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jul 5, 2013 12:16:31 PM

Well, brerrabbitTX, if I were to answer your question only as a yes/no, I would say it this way. Whether I am myself or a fuel seller, I would not risk financial liability in the event of an actual risk. However, you need to determine whether a risk is real or simply a perceived risk. If the goal is to create a perception of a problem in the absence of one, then well, they are succeeding. This, as the idndividuals involved know quite well, is called selling out. Reality has been obscured to the point of ridiculousness in this matter. Good to see you back BTW.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/5/2013 12:22:43 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Jul 5, 2013 11:39:13 AM

The point of the post was simply this, yes cars are out of warranty, however the auto makers with no liability to fix cars out of warranty have said don't use E-15 in those vehicles. Now the liability for any resulting damage passes to the fuel seller. The question from there is simple, would you as the fuel seller who sells a lot more gas to cars manufactured before 2010 than those manufactured after 2010 take the financial risk of instituting E-15 sales across your entire network?
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jul 5, 2013 8:49:47 AM

Exactly WhiskeyBurner. What auto company is gonna "bail you out" (brerrabbit's term) if your vehicle is 30 seconds, or .2 miles out of warranty? NONE. Most vehicles are OUT of warranty, and since E-15 is better for these cars, they will state against it so you wont use it... thus causing you to need a new vehicle SOONER, because e-15 EXTENDS vehicle life. Automakers know up to E-30 is fine and really just throw out statements like "warranty" for drama.

All this anti ethanol BS is designed, quite carefully, to induce fear and act as a win win for auto manufacturers and oil, all while being a lose only for the consumer.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/5/2013 8:53:39 AM EST]
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 5, 2013 2:00:09 AM

What about vehicles, like my '98 Cherokee, that are so far out of warranty that it's owners, like myself, would be willing to try it to see what happens then fix things that might go wrong.
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: Jul 4, 2013 9:52:57 PM

"The auto industry, though, says E-15 -- as the blend is known -- corrodes pumps, fuel lines and injectors. And manufacturers say they won't cover damages caused by the higher blend."A typical BS statement coming to you from Big Oil.

This is where a passion for the future of ethanol as a reliable, renewable fuel meets the cold hard reality of economics 101. Certainly there has been a tremendous amount of things said by the auto industry and the oil industry about using E-15. Certainly there are plenty of people on this site that will tell you that they have used much higher blends in older vehicles for long periods of time with no issues.

So the EPA does their studies and declares that e-15 is okay for 2001 and newer vehicles. Now even if you believe that e-15 will not harm those vehicles, how much are you willing to bet on that belief? $100? $1,000?
$100 million? Auto manufacturers have said that they will not warrant cars prior to 2011 for e-15 because they did not design them for it and that a significant percentage of them will have issues with fuel pumps, and other parts if it is used. Now imagine you are a fuel seller. A large oil company that has 13,000 branded stations across the country with your name on them. How incented are you to freely allow E-15 to be sold?

Now don't answer that question from where you currently sit. Answer it from the perspective of an executive of that company, as a member of the board of directors. How responsible would it be for you to say that "hey the EPA said it's okay, so its okay by me!" If cars fail at that point the auto manufacturers are off the hook, they said don't use it and many of the vehicles are not under warranty anyway. But the brand on 13,000 stations just sold you a product that may have potentially done severe damage to your car. How many millions are you willing to risk of the corporations money? How many employees would be effected and potentially lose jobs due to the losses. How responsible would your actions be towards the stockholders of the corporation? How many of you yourselves own mutual funds that have energy stocks that could be effected in their portfolio?

I am not an expert in the effect of ethanol blends in automobiles. I personally believe that as we move forward that as cars are designed to use the higher blends there will be no issues. But as a experienced business person who has evaluated 100's of projects over the 31 years I have spent in the energy industry I can tell you the idea of wholesale switches the E-15 in the current environment is from a business perspective risky.

Take a look at the average age of the fleet of American cars, it has aged due to higher prices, downturns in the economy and is older than you think. The Auto makers said no and won't bail you out financially, and the EPA said it's okay to use and they won't bail you out financially then how willing are you to move forward with the program?
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smugutu1234
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 7:16:15 AM

I do not buy ethanol.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2013 3:02:47 AM

I may soon head up to PA this coming weekend. It will give me a chance to fill up with E30.
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2013 12:29:10 PM

Let's all celebrate America's independence from other countries by filling our tanks full of non-renewable black-burning expensive fuel that was shipped here from other countries.
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outlaw329
Champion Author Austin

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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2013 2:49:30 AM

Not in my vehicles
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Chazzer
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Jul 1, 2013 1:25:16 PM

No way!
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Cummins_Diesel
Rookie Author Georgia

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Message Posted: Jul 1, 2013 1:48:57 AM

With centuries of "non-renewable" fuel supplies left, why do we need to lube'n'shove the whole 100% renewable thing so urgently in such a short transition period?

What's wrong with Natural Gas?
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 28, 2013 1:41:58 PM

Since when if Fox news a viable news source?
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 28, 2013 2:49:05 AM

"The auto industry, though, says E-15 -- as the blend is known -- corrodes pumps, fuel lines and injectors. And manufacturers say they won't cover damages caused by the higher blend."A typical BS statement coming to you from Big Oil.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 11:43:11 PM

Automakers warn new ethanol mandate could damage vehicles
By William La Jeunesse
Published May 07, 2013

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/07/auto-makers-warn-new-ethanol-mandate-could-damage-cars/#ixzz2XTkJK6D8
The auto industry, though, says E-15 -- as the blend is known -- corrodes pumps, fuel lines and injectors. And manufacturers say they won't cover damages caused by the higher blend.
The American Automobile Association agrees.
"Ninety-five percent of today's cars are not suited for E-15 based on what people who make those cars say," said AAA CEO Robert Darbelnet.
But as Washington looks to compel refiners to blend more and more ethanol into gasoline, consumers are still left with the basic and critical question -- how much ethanol is safe to put in their cars?

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/07/auto-makers-warn-new-ethanol-mandate-could-damage-cars/#ixzz2XTkUw7QA
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2013 3:16:01 AM

"Plus that my car won't run on that s#%t. " Really....just why is that so? As far as I can tell there is not a car in America that will not run on low level blends of ethanol fuels. And there is also not a car in America that can run on 100% ethanol with minor modifications.
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Chazzer
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 5:43:03 PM

No Ethanol stations in my immediate area. Would have to drive 60+ miles to Vegas to get the stuff. Plus that my car won't run on that s#%t. Why did they have to pick CORN, why not some other vegetation
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driveonby1
Champion Author Toledo

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 3:11:01 PM

allright!
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 12:45:57 PM

I'd rather see big oil's monopoly go the way of the dodo.
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OceanArcher
Champion Author Mississippi

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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2013 9:40:52 AM

Ethanol needs to go the way of the Dodo bird -- become extinct
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