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darwinfinch

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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2013 12:19:05 PM

The Supreme Court just ruled that Big Oil and Big Food do not have sufficient standing to challenge the EPA's decision to move forward with E15 and the RFS.

A major landmark for renewable fuel.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Jul 22, 2013 12:25:35 PM

When people say that ethanol can't compete in a free market and that the RFS is proof of that, I think of the civil rights battles we have gone through in our country.

Suppose when people were being burned as witches and hanged from trees for skin color, we had stood back and said that the majority was right, and that the status quo was "good enough". Suppose those defending the status quo claimed, as Shockjock does today, that they were "grown up and fully capable of making decisions for myself on my own".

I wouldn't dare to say that the battle for the RFS is as significant as a civil rights movement, but it is founded on the same principles: backing merits of the minority in the face of a majority momentum. Greenhouses for seedlings. Nests for eggs. Booster seats for toddlers. It's not a new idea, and virtually every innovation in history was at one time given similar room to breathe.

I think we can admit that any snowball large enough and rolling fast enough is dangerous regardless of its merits, and that alone is a good reason to defend the RFS, or any other attempt to support alternative energies, resources, or dreamers with merit. (Notice that I keep using the word merit to point out that we aren't blindly supporting every David/Goliath battle.)

If, in 100 years, biofuel holds an overwhelming monopoly over the liquid fuels industry I would hope that similar shields are created for further innovative seeds grow.

Contrast these analogies with the vision of the oil industry: majority rules, status quo is perfect, change is unwelcome, innovation is a threat, and profits dictate respect.

Which kind of country did you think you lived in?

[Edited by: darwinfinch at 7/22/2013 12:27:23 PM EST]
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pt1KY
Champion Author Lexington

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Message Posted: Jul 18, 2013 10:21:04 AM

Cannot use E15!
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33gort33
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2013 11:24:55 AM

10% is better...15% is too much for my vehicles
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Jul 17, 2013 8:39:09 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "If you consider ethanol to be a non-subsidized fuel, then you have to take the argument that gasoline is subsidized off the table..."

Please list all the federal tax subsidies for both oil and ethanol industries and let's compare them. This is not a first time you were asked to do so, and so far you have failed every time. Why is that?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 16, 2013 4:23:39 PM

"Ethanol is not directly subsided with cash payments the way it was in recent past"

If you consider ethanol to be a non-subsidized fuel, then you have to take the argument that gasoline is subsidized off the table...
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GrumpyCat
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Message Posted: Jul 16, 2013 3:54:19 PM

"Hmmm... Ethanol is less efficient/gallon then gasoline, so how is that going to help with efficiency in the future?"

For argument's sake ethanol is close to the same EFFICIENCY as gasoline, its just that ethanol has less energy but about the same percentage (which is what efficiency means) of the energy it contains is useful. Ethanol is less ECONOMICAL per gallon than gasoline, or diesel, or natural gas.

When E10 is $3.159 and E85 is $2.749 (actual local prices last week) then E85 is about $0.50/gallon overpriced for its energy content.

"who says that ethanol will be affordable in the future? After all, we are using over 40% of our harvested crop to provide a very small fraction of the liquid fuel we use today."

The problem is that ethanol is not renewable yet its apologists look the other way and pretend it is. 60% to 80% of its energy content is consumed as diesel and natural gas for ethanol's production and distribution. Not to mention the natural gas used to produce fertilizer to enhance crop yields.

"What happens to the price of ethanol if it has to consume even more of our harvest to provide an even larger percentage of our energy needs?"

The problem is not food but the fact ethanol consumes vast quantities of non-renewable energy to produce at anywhere near competitive prices. And even so is still not competitive. Ethanol is not directly subsided with cash payments the way it was in recent past. Today ethanol is subsidized with penalties for failure to meet consumption quotas of ethanol.
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skunku
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Message Posted: Jul 16, 2013 1:39:30 PM

I hate Ethanol....
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 16, 2013 8:12:43 AM

"Yes, there are times when things have to be mandated for the public good"

Nothing like a nanny state after all. Sorry, I'm a grown up and am fully capable of making decision for myself on my own...

"That will come about when traditional fuel and traditional levels of vehicle inefficiency become truly unaffordable..."

Hmmm... Ethanol is less efficient/gallon then gasoline, so how is that going to help with efficiency in the future? who says that ethanol will be affordable in the future? After all, we are using over 40% of our harvested crop to provide a very small fraction of the liquid fuel we use today. What happens to the price of ethanol if it has to consume even more of our harvest to provide an even larger percentage of our energy needs? What happens to food prices as more and more of our acreage is consumed to provide energy?

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/16/2013 8:13:12 AM EST]
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FrankLee1
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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2013 10:56:39 PM

Yes, there are times when things have to be mandated for the public good in spite of those things being unpopular with the same public. Remember emission controls? Wow, the public did not like to have their draft tubes taken away! How many millions of cat converter eliminator "test pipes" were sold? How about seat belts? Nobody wanted to wear them, nobody wanted to be told to wear them, and by golly nobody wanted to have the cops ticket them for not wearing them. Now, over time safety has transformed from a nuisance and imposition on liberty to a big selling point. Someday, fuel economy mandates will transform from nasty impositions on personal liberty to desired consumer selling points. Same with renewable fuels. That will come about when traditional fuel and traditional levels of vehicle inefficiency become truly unaffordable... but not a moment before. :/
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2013 10:07:23 PM

So we have the EPA with such wisdom that we, the stupid public, need protection and to be told what is good for us.

Like those new EPA-mandated zero emission gas cans. What a POS! The the cans aren't worth a dime either! Leaking fuel all over, exploding fuel in a shower onto the unsuspecting.

But I'm so GLAD the EPA has such wisdom that E15 or anything higher must be GREAT!
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 13, 2013 11:15:09 AM

"Shock being daft on purpose or does it come naturally? Not surprised at your non-answer."

For one, personal attacks are frowned upon...

Secondly, I gave a very reasonable and accurate answer. What in it do you have a problem with exactly? The logic perhaps?
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MertieMan
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Message Posted: Jul 13, 2013 9:41:51 AM

All I can muster to say about the Supreme Court is all book sense and no common sense whatsoever.
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smugutu1234
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Jul 13, 2013 7:52:32 AM

They think they know better.
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FrankLee1
All-Star Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jul 13, 2013 1:09:10 AM

Shock being daft on purpose or does it come naturally? Not surprised at your non-answer.
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Countryman2013
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 9:14:49 PM

EPA?? Why not use our "fossil fuels," reportedly enough for 150 years??? Gas in the middle east sells for 10 cents per gallon.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 5:48:07 PM

"if they aren't brand new then E15 wouldn't be mentioned because E15 is "brand new". :/"

What difference does that make? It SPECIFICALLY states that any concetration of ethanol greater then e10 violates the warranty. E15 has a higher concentration then e10, ergo using it voids my warranty.

It's a pretty simple logic problem....

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/12/2013 5:48:42 PM EST]
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 4:17:30 PM

Although I don't recommend E-85 in a non FFV, If you are fortunate enough to have an FFV, E-85 will really help with engine life. The more tanks the better for the vehicle.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/12/2013 4:20:12 PM EST]
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 4:07:19 PM

jock is always talking about vehicle warranties, when in many cases, not all, but MANY this is irrelevant.

I chose to run E20 - E30 from the day I drove my two off the lot. Never made a warranty repair, except for a brake light switch on my 2006. Shockjock probably thinks the ethanol ruined the break light switch LOL. Both are now out of warranty and the high ethanol helped keep the engines in pristine shape. In the last several weeks, to prove a point, I have been running higher than E-40 all the time in both, and on I continue to go on high ethanol blends. I want an FFV but the E-30 has kept my cars going so well, I don't yet have the need.

Car under warranty? Your concern is certainly valid, based on what you have been lead to believe. It's hard to ignore warnings even when they are false, and your car was expensive. Out of warranty? Replace the fuel filter, and start adding E-85 one gallon per fill up until you hit about 1/3 of tank capacity (I go higher). You will do alot of good for your car.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/12/2013 4:12:23 PM EST]
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FrankLee1
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 1:42:41 PM

shock: "I looked in both my manuals, Both allow up to E10, use of more diluted gasoline violates the warranty..." You were asked how new your vehicles are (and blew it off- not surprised); if they aren't brand new then E15 wouldn't be mentioned because E15 is "brand new". :/
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tropicalmn
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 11:58:26 AM

“The spirit of this country has always been innovation, innovation that stands on it's own two feet in the market”
The coddled professor apparently forgot this doesn’t apply to higher education, one of the most subsidized & uncompetitive industries in our nation.

“The ethanol mandate is simply a power play by yet another big lobby group to force the citizenry to use an impractical fuel”
“Big lobbyiest like the corn and ethanol lobby won't let it exist”
Flattering fiction. Reality the corn assoc. & a couple little ethanol orgs. combined have the funding & clout of fart in a wind.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 11:55:18 AM

I've also never seen anyone try to block an ethanol company from putting up stations that sell E85, and yet I've yet to see a stand alone E85 station. Of course, I'm sure if the ethanol producers could convince the government to have the taxpayer pay to have E85 stations emplaced (since that's one thing the corn and ethanol lobby is good at is convincing the government to spend tax payer money for them), this would change...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/12/2013 12:00:11 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 11:52:57 AM

"Your view of this dilemma, however is the exact opposite of reality."

Really? I've yet to see the government put into regulation minimum usage mandates for gasoline...
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 11:08:42 AM

Whatever Shockjock. If we both agree there is no free market, fine. Your view of this dilemma, however is the exact opposite of reality. Reality is that the oil companies who try to cry "free market" are the ones seeing to the fact that there isn't one.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/12/2013 11:11:18 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 10:51:30 AM

"THERE IS NO FREE MARKET! THEY WON'T LET IT EXIST!"

EXACTLY! Big lobbyiest like the corn and ethanol lobby won't let it exist. There is no better example of this then the Federal ethanol minimum usage mandate....
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WhiskeyBurner
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 10:20:42 AM

He ain't worth the stress Hannie, he might as well be running around with his fingers in his ears screaming "LALALALALALALALA-I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!" like a spoiled little brat.
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 9:45:19 AM

Shockjock1961 again with his "You rah rah american spirit of innovation in the free market" BS speech from hell.

THERE IS NO FREE MARKET! THEY WON'T LET IT EXIST! Would you wake up? Look at what is going on, you think there is a smidgen of free marketness going on?

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/12/2013 9:46:31 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 9:08:52 AM

"I guess in my opinion, if we can't get behind something like a renewable fuel standard... if we can't rally for the merits of the underdog... if we can't invest in dreams even after they've shown promise... if we instead root for the old routines and the usual bullies... then we have lost something of our American spirit. :/"

Boo Hoo,,,

The spirit of this country has always been innovation, innovation that stands on it's own two feet in the market, something ethanol cannot do. If it were capable of doing so, there would be no need for a minimum usage mandate. That there is one, and the corn and ethanol lobby is fighting so hard to keep it proves that ethanol is a fuel that is not ready for prime time.

Remove the mandate and let the people choose what they want to put in their vehicles. Of course the ethanol and corn lobby KNOW that if allowed that choice their product would die on the vine...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 9:04:23 AM

"Alternative fuels literally have no chance of standing against the oil industry..."

Simply because they are too expensive or cannot be provided in the quantities needed by society to be commercially viable...

No oil mandate, Simple economics...

"Just ask automakers. There are numerous directions they could go to provide working, affordable vehicles of different shapes and sizes based on diverse technologies"

They can, please site examples of what you speak...

"but we see them bound to the leash of fossil fuel via a series of regulatory specifications, infrastructure limitations, perceptions all financed and maintained with a strong hand by the oil industry."

What regulatory specifications keep auto makers from making alternative fueled vehicles? Infrastructure limitations? How is that the fault of "big oil" companies? Consumer demand, there is the rub. COnsumers don't want ethanol, so the solution is to pass a mandate forcing them to use it? Sounds like the "big Oil" companies are not as all powerful as you portray...

"In fact, this oil mandate (governmental and otherwise) is so strong, and alternatives have so little chance of surviving (there's no free market when it comes to fuel yet), that the RFS servers not as an ethanol mandate but a reversing agent for dissolving some of the unbalanced power held by Big Oil."

The ethanol mandate is simply a power play by yet another big lobby group to force the citizenry to use an impractical fuel, they by and large don't want. Simple as that...
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 12:23:27 PM

Shockjock asked to see an example of an oil mandate. The mandate for fossil fuel is not so much a federal program as it is a governmental bias which has been leaning toward oil and oilmen for the past 100+ years. The infrastructure, politics, and corporate relationships are aligned in such a way that any alternative to "oil as fuel" is resisted and extinguished quite efficiently. Alternative fuels literally have no chance of standing against the oil industry... even those that may be more sustainable, progressive, and effective. That's the oil mandate.

One example: Google "Big Oil Wins Texas Land Grab Case" for a story about government wielding "eminent domain" over private landowners in the interests of Big Oil. People are frequently MANDATED to abide by the lash and whip of Big Oil.

Just ask automakers. There are numerous directions they could go to provide working, affordable vehicles of different shapes and sizes based on diverse technologies but we see them bound to the leash of fossil fuel via a series of regulatory specifications, infrastructure limitations, and consumer demand perceptions all financed and maintained with a strong hand by the oil industry. Sit down and talk with someone at Ford about how they feel: stuck in the mud between the forces of old fashioned fuel and the desire to build more efficient designs.

In fact, this oil mandate (governmental and otherwise) is so strong, and alternatives have so little chance of surviving (there's no free market when it comes to fuel yet), that the RFS servers not as an ethanol mandate but a reversing agent for dissolving some of the unbalanced power held by Big Oil. Like many of our founding documents, it seeks to protect the merits of the weak from the manipulations of the strong.

I guess in my opinion, if we can't get behind something like a renewable fuel standard... if we can't rally for the merits of the underdog... if we can't invest in dreams even after they've shown promise... if we instead root for the old routines and the usual bullies... then we have lost something of our American spirit. :/
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 10:01:27 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Show me the Federal mandate that forces people to use gasoline. You can't because there is not one, unlike the minimum usage mandate for ethanol...."

Show me exactly how you are forced to use Ethanol. I have asked you to prove it on multiple occasions and so far you have failed to provide the answer. Why is that?

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Corn is subsidized, ergo ethanol is subsidized, plus when you are forced to use the product by the Feds, why do you need a direct subsidy?"

Please list all the direct federal ethanol subsidies. Once again, I have asked you to prove it on multiple occasions and so far you have failed to provide the answer. Why is that?
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 9:55:36 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Corn is subsidized to the tune of about $3 Billion/year. What's ethanol made from?"

Another idiotic statement by Shockjock1961.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 9:14:46 AM

"Government over-reach and intrusion is a serious issue and Shockjock1961 and his ilk have been misapplying it in the issue of ethanol"

Misapplying? Wrong answer. Use of ethanol is MANDATED by the Federal Government. How is that an over reach?

"A 90% gasoline mandate forever giving oil total control"

Show me the Federal mandate that forces people to use gasoline. You can't because there is not one, unlike the minimum usage mandate for ethanol....

"Ethanol subsidies are gone."

Corn is subsidized, ergo ethanol is subsidized, plus when you are forced to use the product by the Feds, why do you need a direct subsidy?

"E-15 is not mandated"

Not yet, but the corn and ethanol lobbies are working on it...

" He just wants it gone and the monopoly to continue to enslave you forever."

Nope, don't want it gone, just want the mandate removed. I just want the choice (like most Americans) to not use it, which scares the hell out of the ethanol shills like Hannie and darwinfinch...

"Just keep on twisting the facts and trying to make this issue something it really isn't. Political."

Not political? Who put the mandate in place? Politicians perhaps?
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 9:05:53 AM

"Shockjock just lied again, right there. Ethanol is no longer a subsidized entity."

I guess you can stop claiming that gasoline is subsidized Hannie...

Corn is subsidized to the tune of about $3 Billion/year. What's ethanol made from?
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 8:42:35 AM

Shockjock just lied again, right there. Ethanol is no longer a subsidized entity.

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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 8:30:19 AM

"It's an independent issue and generally only suffers from the anti-competition efforts of the oil industry."

Hardly. People are sick of being forced to use a product that couldn't stand on it's own in the market place, and then being forced to subsidize it to boot. That has nothing to do with "anti-competition" issues...
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 7:35:37 AM

People like to play up "big government" and "big brother" when it comes to this issue, and darwinfinch is right, it is not about that.

Government over-reach and intrusion is a serious issue and Shockjock1961 and his ilk have been misapplying it in the issue of ethanol, because it is a negative connotation.

The reality is they are trying to STOP the choice of ethanol by using a concept designed to appeal to emotion. It in no way applies to ethanol. If anything, the government hindering it to market and hindering choice is what Shockjock really wants. A 90% gasoline mandate forever giving oil total control. But he tries to make you think it is ethanol that is mandated. Ethanol subsidies are gone. E-15 is not mandated. His car runs great on E-10. He just wants it gone and the monopoly to continue to enslave you forever. Just keep on twisting the facts and trying to make this issue something it really isn't. Political.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/11/2013 7:40:33 AM EST]
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Jul 10, 2013 4:47:26 PM

"The only thing that proves is that he was as corrupt as any other politician, so what's your point?"

Just pointing out that ethanol is not a polar political issue. Both sides generally agree and disagree on it, and have done so for 30+ years. It's an independent issue and generally only suffers from the anti-competition efforts of the oil industry.

I like to make that point occasionally as people tend to turn things political when they're not.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 10, 2013 1:47:38 PM

"Did you know that Shockjock1961 supports sending troops and billions of dollars to foreign lands in continued support of a one fuel system? Did you know that Shockjock1961 supports tar sands destruction regardless of environmental impact, while trying as hard as possible to stop any fuel from competing? Did you know that Shockjock1961 will take any angle necessary to further the anti-ethanol sentiment even though it isn't remotely factual?"

Did you know Hannie makes up inaccurate allegations as She/He goes along as He/She encounters valid arguments that terminally weaken his/her rabid, inaccurate, one sided postion? This is a perfect example of that...


[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/10/2013 1:53:00 PM EST]
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 10, 2013 1:23:03 PM

Did you know that Shockjock1961 supports sending troops and billions of dollars to foreign lands in continued support of a one fuel system? Did you know that Shockjock1961 supports tar sands destruction regardless of environmental impact, while trying as hard as possible to stop any fuel from competing? Did you know that Shockjock1961 will take any angle necessary to further the anti-ethanol sentiment even though it isn't remotely factual?

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/10/2013 1:25:37 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 10, 2013 11:46:38 AM

"Did you know Ronald Reagan was a huge supporter of ethanol?"

The only thing that proves is that he was as corrupt as any other politician, so what's your point?
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Jul 10, 2013 11:22:05 AM

ScottAdams5,

All production of "kool-aid" is from the oil companies. If you are still trying to support the bogus claims of engine damage, YOU are the one consuming the kool-aid. Guess you like your kool-aid oil-flavored.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: Jul 9, 2013 12:46:41 PM

Did you know Ronald Reagan was a huge supporter of ethanol? He even gave ethanol subsidies their first major jumpstart (back when there were subsidies for ethanol).
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ScottAdams5
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Message Posted: Jul 9, 2013 10:30:05 AM

A major landmark for tyranny and having engines destroyed!

"Just drink the Kool-Aid and everything will be just fine!"
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Jul 7, 2013 10:40:16 PM

Shocky, how old are your cars?
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 7, 2013 9:07:03 PM

I looked in both my manuals, Both allow up to E10, use of more diluted gasoline violates the warranty...
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FrankLee1
All-Star Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jul 6, 2013 4:30:01 PM

57, I expect GM to say something roughly equal to what Ford or Chrysler or any other auto manufacturer to say, and in fact they have. Go look up an Ford Owner's Manual fuel recommendation as I just have; they say E15 is fine too.
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metalrod
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Message Posted: Jul 6, 2013 12:35:37 PM

I'm not too crazy about the MPG of Ethanol.
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57TBIRD
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Message Posted: Jul 6, 2013 10:07:42 AM

What do you expect from a government motors manual ?????????
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nurdco
Champion Author Colorado Springs

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Message Posted: Jul 6, 2013 2:26:27 AM

Mix qtr tank of e85 WITH 3 qtrs regular (e10) you ARE Driving on e30 fuel...

I have driven on this mixture since 2005 (now 2013)

HENCE e15 is a Non issue... CONGRESS and EPA needs a Continuing Education refresher...

[Edited by: nurdco at 7/6/2013 2:28:48 AM EST]
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: Jul 5, 2013 10:47:55 PM

If the vehicle warranty thing is such a farce, then why doesn't the EPA exempt engine failures due to fuel issues? They won't even discuss it with the OEMs.

Do they know something they don't want to admit?? I think so.But don't worry, the NSA doesn't tap your phone or this posting. Only looking for terrorists.
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