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Author Topic: Myths speak loud. Louder than facts. Back to Topics
Hannie59

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Appleton

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Message Posted: Jun 5, 2013 1:35:50 PM

How some people could believe that a cleaner and cooler burning fuel such as E-15, E-30, or E-85 would cause damage, as opposed to the dirty hotter burning dino fuel that they love so much...

Even when elastomer compatibility of ethanol is greater than Gas.
Even when it's been proven that transportation costs are the major factor in what is charged at the grocery store.
Even when we have fought wars over protecting petroluem's profits
Even when well to wheel energy yield of corn ethanol (and other sources even better)is greater than pertoleum, which is carried in by ship from halfway around the world to be refined and pollute our air.
Even when EPA tests show it is fully compatible.
Even when it's less expensive.
Even when it has helped revitalized rural america and employ thousands.
Even when big oil tried to cover up the Arkansas oil disaster where the pipeline broke causing danger to neighborhoods.

They still trash ethanol.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 6/5/2013 1:40:13 PM EST]
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2013 12:38:40 PM

Your passion is great Hannie. I admire it! Thanks for your posts!
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2013 9:14:59 AM

Thanks Banjoe,

I am passionate about this and my goal isn't to repeat myself constantly, although that's what inevitabley occurs. I just want people to look at this beyond the common dogma that people HEAR and consequently believe. Look at it logically. There are many that want to see to it that people don't know the facts.

For example, no issue should be viewed from an ideological one liner. All things, all issues, cannot be solved with a philosophical one liner. All issues, problems, need solutions and must be viewed in detail. For example, If you hate big government, well there are alot of reasons to believe that as a philosopy. But when you look at what makes capitalism so great, one if the key provisions is monopolies are discouraged by laws. Competition is great, but there are those that use "free market" to defend a monopoly. That's bass ackwards! Monopolies cannot be legal, when they are the very principal of free market is destroyed. Ethanol is not anti free market! But oil companies ARE anti free market! But people twist that so sickeningly they have people fooled! This is one argument used to "fool" people. So what we face today is not "We need to use ethanol, not gas". It is not "Screw the EPA and Obama they can't tell ME what to do!" It is how to solve a monopoly over our transportation system.

And then there is factual information vs. NON factual. That also is a pet peeve...and so I post, constantantly trying to get people to make up their OWN minds amongst facts. Not amongst gossip, which is what the posters here who are anti ethanol, anti choice, are hoping for. If you choose not to use ethanol I will NOT try to make you, and I will not try to argue any points. But if you believe that it is not good for your engine, and make that your basis for not using it, well then I will argue that that is not true reason because it just isn't true. Say "I prefer to use gas because it has better MPG and I hate the process of filling my tank. So the less I have to do it the better." I cannot make any point to you because you have based your decision on a fact.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/27/2013 9:21:53 AM EST]
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2013 8:53:59 AM

Good basis of discussion Hannie59. Nice to have you back at work getting folks thinking outside the box.
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2013 12:00:02 AM

Sure are aRBY!
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aRBy
All-Star Author Grand Rapids

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2013 11:54:36 PM

Don't forget that ethanol spills are much easier to clean up than gasoline and petroleum spills.
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33gort33
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Jul 26, 2013 8:40:19 AM

there are facts on both sides.

I still use it
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tdioiler
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 11:08:52 PM

Goldseeker, The EPA calcs from reference points burning reference fuel. That is E0 based. The calcs are for derivative vehicle styles on the same platform and engine combo. Save money to test one vehicle instead of 6 on most platforms.
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Chazzer
Champion Author Nevada

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Message Posted: Jul 8, 2013 9:43:38 AM

Amen!
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2013 11:11:07 AM

GrumpyCat wrote: "Water burns even cooler than ethanol, so why don't you use that if "cooler" is better."

Let's see some proof that water burns.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 6/15/2013 11:12:43 AM EST]
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2013 10:17:41 AM

"How some people could believe that a cleaner and cooler burning fuel such as E-15, E-30, or E-85 would cause damage, as opposed to the dirty hotter burning dino fuel that they love so much..."

Water burns even cooler than ethanol, so why don't you use that if "cooler" is better. After all "we're not heating water"? For the clueless who have no concept of how thermodynamics work, heat is what pushes pistons. More heat more push. Less heat less push. This is why the EPA states E85 MPG is 27% less than E0 and all EPA "gasoline" MPG ratings are for 0% ethanol.

I have nothing against ethanol, only its proponents. If ethanol was renewable then make ethanol with renewable resources. Quit firing ethanol distilleries with natural gas.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2013 4:32:56 AM

"Your small engine repair shops like ethanol. It brings them more business. You know why you the EPA mileage tests are done with ethanol free gasoline? It is because you get better mileage with ethanol-free gas."

Funny, in nearly 30 years of ethanol use, I have never had to take anything to a small engine repair shop. By the way....when did the epa start testing for mileage? Last I checked they were only calculating mileage.

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Alexi7
All-Star Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Jun 15, 2013 2:13:06 AM

My throttle-bodied '87 Lincoln Townie and '90 Chevy Silverado don't seem to mind small doses(4-5 gallons) of E-85. I tried E-85 in my '99 Acura and burned up the ignition coils.

Our '09 Pontiac G6(3.5L V-6) gets 24-25 mpg with E-85. Our '11 Traverse missed out on the dual-fuel motor(3.6L V-6). Anyone know why?
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 14, 2013 6:44:00 PM

Are they rebuilding stuff with non compliant parts? I can see how well that would work for repair shops, do maintenence work with non compliant materials and when the repair go bad, just claim, "Oh it's the gas you're using, has too much ethanol in it. Sorry, not under warranty either."
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ozarkcommuter
Champion Author Arkansas

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Message Posted: Jun 14, 2013 2:47:39 PM

Your small engine repair shops like ethanol. It brings them more business. You know why you the EPA mileage tests are done with ethanol free gasoline? It is because you get better mileage with ethanol-free gas.
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jun 9, 2013 12:07:44 AM

Wondered how long it was going to be before you posted that on here Hannie!
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jun 8, 2013 1:07:51 PM

Think.

E-10 or E-15. One will work fine in your car for 100,000 miles and the other will ruin it?

I have some more kool aid for you then. Here is some lawyers comments. A lawyer for the American Petroleum Institute. Keep in mind the EPA has proven full compatibility with all cars going back 26 years from today. And although they have kept it silent, this goes for gas to E-30, not just E-15. But here's what this brilliant lawyer for the AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE says:

“E15 could leave millions of consumers with broken down cars and high repair bills,” said Bob Greco, API group downstream director. “It could also put motorists in harm’s way when vehicles break down in the middle of a busy highway. We are asking the Supreme Court to step in and protect consumers by striking down EPA’s dangerous E15 mandate before it’s too late.”

This was a lawyer for the AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE! He certainly cares about your car and well being more that maintaing a monopoly for HIS employer doesn't he? He cares about you being stranded on the highway because you have 5% more ethanol in your tank? THAT CAN'T HAPPEN. How dumb does this moron think people are? Ask him if he cares for all the brave soldiers that have given their lives to protect our oil company interests. Ask him if he cares about the cancer and pulmonary diseases his product has caused for millions of people.

This, ladies and gentleman, is what they really want. Behols an internal memo from an oil company that was leaked about why they want to keep lying to you:
Insightful excerpt from a leaked industry memo. "PO" in the last paragraph presumably refers to "public opinion".

--

[...] Currently, the average driver's unwillingness to experiment with his gas tank works to our advantage. However, as higher [biofuel] blends are offered to the public, the price discount will become irresistible. Previously conservative consumers will perform escalating trial runs in their own vehicles.

A private study commissioned in 2012 reported that the average vehicle owner could establish full confidence in an "alternative fuel" in as few as 5 tanks, provided that the price was lower and no mechanical incidents had resulted from the switch. This number is even lower for leased vehicles.

Clearly, wide availability of higher blends will represent an irreversible shift against our efforts. Present goals aim to prevent this by maintaining a semi-regulated ceiling of 10% [now 15%] ethanol in all markets.

We look to [company name removed] to establish future plans for the possibility that this ceiling may not hold. Given that a mass trial run of E15 or E30 will not support our position, we must ramp up efforts to hold PO behind the "red line" by appealing to "mechanic phobia", by circulating authoritative messaging, and by continuing to marginalize fuel experimentalism.

[...]

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 6/8/2013 1:14:19 PM EST]
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jun 8, 2013 12:47:36 PM

If it is possible, try to put this entire debate that has been raging here for years out of your mind and just think for a second. Have a cup of coffee, maybe a beer of your choice.....

OK... mind clear of the ethanol debate yet? Now answer this question based on everything logical.

Automobiles run on 10% almost exclusively in this country. They do require maintenenance or they will cease to function. Fuel is the actual cause of a vehicle problem how often? Basically, fuel is never the CAUSE. Driver behaviors, wear and tear on tires, brakes, struts, shocks. Transmissions fail after many miles. Do fuel pumps fail? Yes, all the time. Not due to whether they are running E-0 or E-10 however. I assure you that if there was true data of engine durability (there isn't) on E-0 vs. E-10, the chips would fall in favor of E-10 working better, but that is not significant either.

Point: Think realistically here. If your car's ECU and injectors adjust fine, then your car does not care if you have 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, or 30% ethanol in your fuel. Elastomer compatibility has been proven superior for ethanol over gas. Materials are inanimate things, and they cannot tell how much ethanol is in your fuel.

Your vehicle, if it was purchased this century, and even the decade prior, was made to handle fuels of widely varying properties. Your car will not and cannot be damaged by something as insignificant as a 30% (between 0% and 30%) difference in the amount of highly combustable oxygenate contained in the fuel. Yes, mileage can vary based on these variances. But not damage. So do you really feel that E-15 will be a problem and hurt your car when you think it through logically? Or are you still into the hype that the American Petroleum Institute is shoving at you from all angles?



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 6/8/2013 12:53:00 PM EST]
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 8, 2013 1:58:16 AM

"That's all great, but it don't run in my car, and I don't plan on buying a new car"

Thats funny. I always thought that it would run just great in any car in America.
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OceanArcher
Champion Author Mississippi

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Message Posted: Jun 7, 2013 2:50:44 PM

That's all great, but it don't run in my car, and I don't plan on buying a new car
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