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Author Topic: What;s wrong with ethanol anyway? Back to Topics
kwela

Sophomore Author
Ontario

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Message Posted: Jun 4, 2013 6:28:01 PM

Just don't consume too much before you drive.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 3:50:45 PM

"Shock, DF is right farmers wouldn't plant anymore food crops in the added space gained if we take away ethanol. Many farmers get paid subsidies not to plant and they would just use those subsidies as income"

Simple, take away the welfare payments, those things you call subsidies...
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Nov 4, 2013 2:04:04 AM

There is not a thing wrong with ethanol. It is far better than gasoline.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2013 8:43:46 PM

"When e-10 was mandated in 2007, I lost 10% of my mpg. E-Zero has restored that plus some."

2 scientific impossibilities without other factors at play.
A - to lose 10% in mileage with E10 would be possible only if ethanol were inert, had no energy (assuming properly maintained vehicle). Ethanol is not inert, it contains energy.
B - to get back that 10% AND MORE, (assuming no other modifications to vehicle) is saying that E0 gasoline is better than E0 gasoline. HUH?

Truth is, most people that lost 10% or more had filters clogged when ethanol cleaned out the crap left in the fuel system by gasoline.
You won't believe it, but if I take a holiday trip into areas that don't have E10 at every regular pump, my mileage actually takes a slight dip. It is used to a steady diet of E10.
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2013 8:01:41 PM

"Producing ethanol serves the first purpose, to take the corn-food out of the supply equation,"

That would be true if production were static. But, it's not. As demand increases, farmers can and are growing more grain per acre.

"So does the land really need rest and restoration with crop alterations. "

The answer is, for the most part, no. Ag science has progressed since the soil bank program of the 1950s. Most farmers manage the soil such that soil quality can and is improved.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Nov 3, 2013 6:18:40 PM

ZR1S10 said” Shock, DF is right farmers wouldn't plant anymore food crops in the added space gained if we take away ethanol. Many farmers get paid subsidies not to plant and they would just use those subsidies as income. By planting field corn for ethanol we reduce those worthless subsidies nowone wants and create alt fuel to give people a choice at the pump.”

Originally the soil bank program was passed with two objectives in mind.
1)to stabilize prices by reducing production.
2) It was called ‘soil bank’ because it put the land into reserve for future production of corn, and not depleting the soil, so it could eventually be placed back into producing corn.
The farmer would instead plant grass or legumes to give the soil rest and time to be restored.

Producing ethanol serves the first purpose, to take the corn-food out of the supply equation, but how does it help give the land rest and restoration?
So does the land really need rest and restoration with crop alterations.
Obviously, it is not getting it now.


[Edited by: borsht at 11/3/2013 6:19:50 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 12:56:01 PM

1DON1 wrote: "What choice? E-10/15 is a mandate."

Wrong. Nice Big Oil Propaganda piece though.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 8/3/2013 12:57:14 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 12:53:27 PM

kennyman wrote: "it has too much moisture and is corrosive to engines."

So is gasoline. Do you still use it?
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1DON1
Champion Author Jacksonville

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 7:49:17 AM


ZR... What choice? E-10/15 is a mandate. I am able to find ethanol-free fuel here and I use it in my vehicles/machines. I pay more but it is worth it. When e-10 was mandated in 2007, I lost 10% of my mpg. E-Zero has restored that plus some.
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smugutu1234
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 7:19:59 AM

It stinks!
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57TBIRD
Champion Author Texas

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Message Posted: Aug 3, 2013 6:35:09 AM

BUT;my steak does!!!!!!!
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kennyman
Champion Author Alberta

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 9:31:24 PM

it has too much moisture and is corrosive to engines.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 8:04:13 PM

"Many farmers get paid subsidies not to plant and they would just use those subsidies as income"

So you are saying that farmers would rather collect welfare then work?

Simple solution, do away with the welfare payments...
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ZR1S10
Rookie Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 7:07:17 PM

Shock, DF is right farmers wouldn't plant anymore food crops in the added space gained if we take away ethanol. Many farmers get paid subsidies not to plant and they would just use those subsidies as income. By planting field corn for ethanol we reduce those worthless subsidies nowone wants and create alt fuel to give people a choice at the pump.
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FrankLee1
All-Star Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 2:27:41 PM

joking: try peanut oil in the little wuss instead.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 9:33:43 AM

"Why?"

You are right. Corn prices would stay high, and farmers would keep planting as much corn as they do now since there would be no financial reason not to. *rolls eyes*

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 8/2/2013 9:34:23 AM EST]
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equinox1528
Rookie Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 9:16:02 AM

Sweet corn, we eat that. Field Corn is used for ethanol. We do not eat Field Corn.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 9:03:33 AM

smugutu1234 wrote: "It's bad for your car."

Wrong. All my cars love it.
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smugutu1234
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 7:58:36 AM

It's bad for your car.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 6:08:12 AM

"Corn would be at $2/bushel, a fraction of what it is now"

Why?
Would the cost of transportation suddenly drop like a rock?
Planting less corn because they aren't making ethanol would make the price of corn drop? How does that work?
Not planting corn for ethanol would mean the price of oil would drop, gasoline and diesel would drop, and the cost of refining would drop?
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JoeKing
Champion Author Manitoba

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Message Posted: Aug 2, 2013 12:06:54 AM

My vehicle has an allergic reaction to ethanol.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 1:58:36 PM

So you are claiming that farmers would rather not have an income then plant another crop? I don't see how that sounds reasonable in any farming, agricultural or economic sense...
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 11:54:12 AM

If would make more sense to you if you understood farming, and agriculture, and economics... stuff like that.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 11:38:48 AM

Are you trying to claim that farmers would rather earn no money at all over planting another crop to secure an income?

I know many farmers, and I don't know too many of them that would forfeit a years compensation by allowing their lands to go fallow...
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 11:22:42 AM

Still missing the point. Read slower:

The 20 million you are saying would be "available for the planting of food crops" would NEVER BE PLANTED.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 11:05:35 AM

"You don't grasp the point. Without biorefining, we'd still be at 73 million"

Which would have left the other 20 million acres available for the planting of food crops.

Corn would be at $2/bushel, a fraction of what it is now, and there would have been more crop land that could have been devoted to growing food...

Both would have lowered food costs...

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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 10:23:34 AM

You don't grasp the point. Without biorefining, we'd still be at 73 million. Nobody is going to plant corn when it's $1/bushel, as much as you'd like for it to drop that low. Those 20 acres would be in CRP or residential developments or abandonned.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 9:33:12 AM

"Without the ethanol/DDGS industry, corn would still be at $2/bushel and near 75 million acres as well"

Cheaper corn for animal feed and more acres that could be devoted to food crops. Sounds like the sure way to reduce overall food prices...
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 9:31:18 AM

"Acres of corn planted in 1993: 73 million
Acres of corn planted in 2012: 93 million"

Thanks for s proving my point. There were 20 million less acres of farmland that could be devoted to the production of food crops...
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:32:49 AM

Shocky's claim that using corn for biofuel reduces the available stocks for food... is just plain wrong. In fact it's the opposite. The biorefining industry has spurred agricultural and rural economic growth, actually supporting and reinforcing those activities for all:

Acres of corn planted in 1993: 73 million
Acres of corn planted in 2012: 93 million

Do the math. Biorefiners take in 40% of corn and then spit over half of that back out as animal feed, meaning approximately 16% of corn is converted to ethanol. This analysis doesn't even address the increases in yield spurred by technology advances financed by the biorefining revolution.

Before 1993, farmers were getting less than $2/bushel for corn.... less than the cost of production. Now they're actually making a profit, in effect REDUCING subsidy payouts. (Imagine that!) Without the ethanol/DDGS industry, corn would still be at $2/bushel and near 75 million acres as well.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:19:47 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Just shows another way that ethanol increases food prices."

Yet you fail to provide any specifics. Why is that? How much exactly?
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:19:46 AM

What you asked for:
"Lets get rid of the ethanol mandate (RFS) and let the consumer decide if they want it or not."

What you're going to get:
"Let's get rid of the ethanol mandate (RFS) and let oil companies decide what we want."
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2013 8:10:52 AM

"And those that did were the farmers that simply planted more to meet the increased demand. If ethanol were to disappear, they would simply plant less to meet the decreased demand"

Just shows another way that ethanol increases food prices. The more ethanol that is used the more corn that has to be planted. The more acreage devoted to corn the fewer acres devoted to growing food crops, the fewer the food crop the higher the prices. On top of that, as farmers cash in on the ethanol bananza, they have tended to discontinue crop rotation, instead choosing to plant the same fields over and over again with corn, requiring the use of more pesticides and fertilizers, increasing the contamination that comes from runoff...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 8/1/2013 8:12:39 AM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 9:29:13 PM

RedRider1OK wrote: "krzysiek, if you read the questions you asked me and you can use common sense, you will answer your own questions. No reply needed on my behalf."

Yes indeed you are the Big Oil Shill and the armchair expert in one. Thank you for clarifying.
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FieroGT
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 8:13:50 PM

Don't know of anything good about ethanol.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 8:11:35 PM

Another dodge from a big oil shill. No surprise there.
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RedRider1OK
All-Star Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 7:52:52 PM

When you can't sell a product (ethanol) because of all its negative properties then what do you do? How about lobby the Govt. to mandate its use. Sound familiar?

Lets get rid of the ethanol mandate (RFS) and let the consumer decide if they want it or not.

krzysiek, if you read the questions you asked me and you can use common sense, you will answer your own questions. No reply needed on my behalf.
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 6:36:14 PM

E10 has been around for over 30 years.
I would like to know how many cars have had their warranties voided because the owners used E10? This is very important.
Somebody is alleging millions of cars are about to have their warranties voided. If E10 didn't damage cars to the extent warranties were voided in the 1980s, why would it suddenly change now? Is it alleged quality of manufacture has dropped so much in the automotive industry that the ethanol that doesn't dissolve liquor bottles will now dissolve engine parts?

Or is it more scare tactics from Big Oil shills?

"Few Americans imagined that the 2007 law to raise the amount of corn ethanol blended into gasoline would end up diverting 40 percent of the corn crop from feed and food to fuel."
And those that did were the farmers that simply planted more to meet the increased demand. If ethanol were to disappear, they would simply plant less to meet the decreased demand. Sounds pretty simple to me. There is no nefarious plot to snatch the corn cobs out of your hands to make ethanol.
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jacksfan
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 5:27:15 PM

By 2016, distiller's grains will account for 20% of all U.S. livestock feed. Today, it's at about 17%.

Claiming ethanol production consumes 40% of the U.S. corn crop simply is ignorant.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:11:21 AM

RedRider1OK wrote: "It's made from corn which raises related grain and food prices."

Please explain how much exactly is ethanol raising the "related grain and food prices". Make sure that you include the raised cost of transportation into your explanation. Lets see the numbers.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 7/31/2013 10:14:04 AM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 10:07:48 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Name another market where the Feds mandate that a given amount of product be consumed..."

ObamaCare. Now please explain how exactly you are forced to use ethanol. I asked on multiple occasions and so far you failed to explain it.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 8:17:36 AM

Name another market where the Feds mandate that a given amount of product be consumed...
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2013 3:18:00 AM

GB polls mean absolutely nothing, as well as comments from RedOiler.
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FrankLee1
All-Star Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 11:23:47 PM

If you think the markets for other things are free, you are deluded.
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RedRider1OK
All-Star Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 10:20:14 PM

Just a couple of thoughts about what's wrong with ethanol in our fuel:

Our Govt. mandates/forces the use of it and without this it would not survive.
Because of its negative properties, ethanol has to be sold cheaper than gasoline for anyone to purchase it.
It's made from corn which raises related grain and food prices.

and according to this website's sixth week of 2013 poll:

Is blending ethanol (up to 10%) into gasoline (E10) a good idea? (Discuss)
Yes 18%
No 65%
No opinion 16%

Total votes: 23568

Ethanol...its not our choice just a Govt. mandate! Let the free market reign and remove the RFS mandate now!
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waynecz
Champion Author Mississippi

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 9:20:14 PM

Read the news article posted today 7/30/13 on Gas buddy.com regarding the failure of the govt once again when it mandated "ethanol" mix in gasoline.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 2:13:44 PM

spoken by the king of "reporting".

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 7/30/2013 2:14:35 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 1:59:44 PM

"Ignore is a wonderful feature"

Unfortunately too many uneducated people feel that ignorance is bliss...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/30/2013 2:00:14 PM EST]
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jacksfan
Champion Author Lincoln

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 1:58:42 PM

All one needs to do with shocky's article post is note the author, note the author's affiliation, note the author's affiliation's true motives, and toss the piece in the virtual circular file -- the one labeled "Not Credible."
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coffeerage
Champion Author Las Vegas

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 1:51:09 PM

I'll keep that in mind. I prefer Coors Light.
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FrankLee1
All-Star Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2013 1:35:26 PM

Once upon a time I considered shockjock's antics misguided yet somewhat entertaining. That time is past. Ignore is a wonderful feature.
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