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Author Topic: Diversity in energy market lowers price at the pump Back to Topics
gamechanger2011

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Wichita

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Message Posted: May 24, 2013 11:13:48 AM



"The Renewable Fuels Standard is about promoting alternative choices and competition at the pump, which may not be the highest profit scenario for the oil industry, but is, undeniably, the lowest cost scenario for American consumers."

Diversity in energy market lowers price at the pump
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 2:09:51 PM

"True diversity would allow for choosing E0" ...and leaded fuel, and bags of oats if you still drive a horse.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 2:08:22 PM

"Yes. As I understand it, refiners are free to sell E0 in almost every state, but they generally don't because ethanol is now the preferred octane enhancing element and it helps refiners meet various regulations for emissions and health, summer smog, etc"

Don't forget the main reason they blend it... The Federal minimum usage mandate...

You know, the unjust law that places fines if not enough ethanol is consumed...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 5/31/2013 2:11:40 PM EST]
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 2:01:00 PM

"Are you trying to say that the government is requiring the use of ethanol to increase safety?"

Yes. As I understand it, refiners are free to sell E0 in almost every state, but they generally don't because ethanol is now the preferred octane enhancing element and it helps refiners meet various regulations for emissions and health, summer smog, etc. I also suspect that stations don't like putting E0 on their signs because the price gap between E0 and E10 too readily demonstrates ethanol's ability to lower the price.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 1:34:03 PM

"True diversity would allow for choosing E0."

Exactly...
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 12:44:07 PM

borsht wrote: "True diversity would allow for choosing E0."

During your next vehicle purchase please take a look at the diesel vehicles as they give you the choice you are looking for.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 5/31/2013 12:44:31 PM EST]
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 12:32:29 PM

It is really disingenuous to claim we have diversity, when that diversity is merely how much ethanol we must purchase. Take your choice, E10, E20,E30 E85. That is just political hog wash.True diversity would allow for choosing E0.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 9:40:50 AM

Are you trying to say that the government is requiring the use of ethanol to increase safety?

Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges...
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 9:31:28 AM

Shockjock1961 wrote: "Diversity is good, but being forced to use a product is not..."

Yet you fail to explain how exactly you are forced to use Ethanol. Why is that?
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darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 9:10:29 AM

"Diversity is good, but being forced to use a product is not... "

Like when they force automakers to put airbags in the front seats? I hate that they are forced to do that and I hate buying cars that have them. Darn nasty big government. How many gallons of water does it take to make those airbags anyways? Kids in 3rd world countries are starving and we're making fancy airbags. The world is so backward.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 31, 2013 8:40:18 AM

Diversity is good, but being forced to use a product is not...
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: May 30, 2013 10:22:10 PM

Diversity is good.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: May 30, 2013 9:50:55 PM

Domestic corn ethanol subsidies are temporarily gone.
And Brazilian ethanol and import tariffs are gone.
"Congress has just let both the ethanol subsidy and a restrictive foreign tariff (on Brazilian sugar-cane ethanol) lapse. Given that the Iowa caucuses will be finished by the time Congress reconvenes – and given that the House of Representatives is currently chock-heavy with people who spit at the very phrase ‘ethanol subsidy’ – getting back either is going to be a problem for the domestic ethanol industry. Mind you, there are still mandates for using ethanol in place, but note again the ending of the tariff; I’m not a businessman, but effectively lowering the price of Brazilian ethanol by 54 cents/gallon while simultaneously effectively raising the price of domestic ethanol by 45 cents/gallon sounds to me like it would at least raise some intriguing alternatives."

http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2011/12/29/oh-by-the-way-ethanol-subsidies-are-dead/
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 30, 2013 3:22:58 PM

"They were ready to handle the ending of ethanol subsidies but when the drought came, there wasn't any corn to make ethanol."

No corn to make ethanol???

You and the other ethanoholics claim that there was a large surplus of corn last year...

Talk about changing the "facts" to fit the subject at hand...
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: May 30, 2013 1:10:44 AM

So , how do mandates work during a draught?
I guess the only answer is to import ethanol.
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: May 30, 2013 12:10:45 AM

tdioiler says "Did you just say 'Some' ethanol plants closed? What's your definition of 'some'? Is 40% just 'some'? That that was in one year alone, just as those subsidies ended."

LOL What bird cage liner tabloid claimed 40% closed last year? Try closer to 10% with the majority reopened.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 29, 2013 11:10:05 PM

"What????? Ethanol isn't subsidized any longer!!!!!"

You don't have to subsidze a product when the Federal government mandates the use of a product at a level that exceeds the production capabilities...

Ethanol subsidies

"As the Congressional Budget Office wrote back in 2010, "In the future, the scheduled increase in mandated volumes would require biofuels to be produced in amounts that are probably beyond what the market would produce even if the effects of the tax credits were included." [Italics mine.] In other words, the mandates have grown so large that the tax credits barely made a difference anymore. Demand for ethanol is driven by the mandates, not by the tax credit."


[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 5/29/2013 11:13:45 PM EST]
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: May 29, 2013 11:07:41 PM

I know people in the business. It was the drought. They were ready to handle the ending of ethanol subsidies but when the drought came, there wasn't any corn to make ethanol. Many plants shut down temporarily. They plan to reopen. Praying that the drought is over!
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 29, 2013 11:07:19 PM

"The proof is that the subsidy ended on January 1, 2012 and ethanol production did not decline until the 2012 drought caused ethanol production margins to turn negative!"

Actually, there was a massive stockpile of ethanol created as producers made as much ethanol as they could to take advantage of the subsidy befoer it ended. Ethanol production DID decline immediately after the subsidy stopped, sales however did not fall until the surplus (which artificially lowered ethanol prices) was liguidated...
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tdioiler
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 29, 2013 11:02:46 PM

Game,

Did you just say 'Some' ethanol plants closed? What's your definition of 'some'? Is 40% just 'some'? That that was in one year alone, just as those subsidies ended.

Guess what, I extrapolate the ending of subsidies had something to do with all those plants closing. And it didn't help the drought threw shovels of dirt onto the grave.
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gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

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Message Posted: May 24, 2013 6:13:00 PM

Old stuff Shocky...but this does disprove one of your claims.
"The proof is that the subsidy ended on January 1, 2012 and ethanol production did not decline until the 2012 drought caused ethanol production margins to turn negative! As of mid-2012 there have been some ethanol plant closings, but those happened because of a record drought, not the elimination of the VTEEC."
What????? Ethanol isn't subsidized any longer!!!!!

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 5/24/2013 6:14:24 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 24, 2013 3:47:25 PM

Ethanol Fact and Fiction Or, How the RFA Distorts Facts

"One argument put forth by the ethanol industry is that increasing ethanol production has depressed gasoline prices. A regression model of U.S. wholesale gasoline prices from 2000 to 2011 shows that ethanol production has had no effect on those prices. Gasoline prices are highly correlated with crude oil prices, inventories, refinery utilization rate, seasonal factors and several supply interruption events"

Read further to be enlightened...
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