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Author Topic: Darn, that nasty ole ethanol. Back to Topics
goldseeker
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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 4:01:25 AM

Just fired my up my ride mower this past weekend. In fact it fired right up. It had set for 6 months with a partial tank of e10. I even topped the tank off with e10 that had been stored in a gas can for several months.

Guess what? No phase separation, no degraded fuel line, and no corrosion.

Should I be disappointed? That nasty ole ethanol did not do what it was suppose to.

Guess those armchair experts were wrong again.
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
litesong
Sophomore Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2015 12:56:39 PM

Banjoe bee-lieves:
Both of you have educated me in the foggy world of EPA, mileage testing, and ethanol...... Well done. Keep those insightful observations coming because they really help us confused characters......
////////
litesong wrote:
Banjoe bee-lieves it just got a U-knee-ver-city DEE-greee in "sigh-ants", "e-ner-gee in-DEE-pend-ants", AND "pro-pul-tion tek-nol-o-gee".
Alexi7
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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2015 5:20:37 AM

I would love to see an E-85 approved version of the 355 hp four-cyl. used in the CLA45 AMG.
Alexi7
Champion Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2015 5:08:29 AM

I've run comparisons in six different vehicles(two personal, four rental) and never found E-85 to yield better fuel economy. The cost-per-mile is generally lower(in the 8-10 cents/mile range), but mpg is always down at 10-15%.
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2015 2:18:05 PM

Not sure what I stumbled on, but I did stay uprite!
The weather is changing. Must be that nasty, ol' ethanol causing all the havoc. Keep smiling.
erfuelman
Sophomore Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2015 9:35:20 AM

make your own comparisons and then do what works best for you
Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2015 8:38:39 AM

SoylentGrain & nru - I want to thank you both for your thoughtful presentations.

Both of you have educated me in the foggy world of EPA, mileage testing, and ethanol while maintaining semi-opposite positions and high standards. Well done. Keep those insightful observations coming because they really help us confused characters sort things out a little bit better.

I do have to blame that darn, nasty ole ethanol for bringing you two together in this format.
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2015 12:11:19 AM

I do have over 120 credit hours of undergraduate and graduate math, chemistry, and physics. I must have had a lecture on "sciency stuff" in there somewhere.

nru
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2015 10:16:45 PM

Ok - you win. Don't listen to the people who research and test this stuff - every once in a while they're wrong, and their blanket statements (as well as most data driven things) should not be taken as valid over populations as long as there are outliers - they only post the outlying data to make their points moot. Their blanket statements don't apply and energy density of fuel matters little if you have understanding of things like "thermal efficiency" and other sciency stuff.
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2015 7:54:55 PM

"Has nothing to do with that Soylent - it's just chemistry and physics - they know what they are doing much better than you "

According to the papers you linked to, some of the smart guys demonstrated ethanol fuel economy is sometimes the same as regular unleaded gasoline.
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2015 7:31:15 PM

Has nothing to do with that Soylent - it's just chemistry and physics - they know what they are doing much better than you
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2015 6:43:30 PM

When you have papers that say there is no mileage difference under specific conditions, I would agree, the issue is settled. You just choose not to see it. "Kinda like that round earth thing."

nru
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2015 5:59:24 PM

No Soylent, that's not an assumption and in fleet will always be the case. Just facts. If you always choose to pick outlying data points, you will never have any basis. Time to quit - this one has been settled by people with far deeper background in the science than you or I, and the idea that you disbelieve it is fine with me, but does not change the science or data that backs it

I agree that emissions is another case, but the science of energy density versus mileage is long settled, kinda like that round earth thing
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2015 4:04:49 PM

"1 - gasoline has higher energy content than ethanol and thus gives better fuel mileage than blends. "

That's your assumption. But, that's not always the case. Citing some of the references you linked to:

- " Increasing fuel ethanol content did not have a significant effect on FTP R factor values for the FTP cycle."
and
- " Highway cycle, while volumetric fuel economy was 3% lower on the M/H cycle and approximately equal on the US06 Highway cycle, compared to the baseline E10 fuel at 10:1 CR. "

As I have been stating on this site for several years, there no direct correlation between volumetric energy content and fuel economy. There is, however, a direct correlation between mileage and the amount of combustion product produced per pound of fuel and the temperature that fuel is burned. Many of the papers you have linked to demonstrate or imply this.

nru
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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2015 11:06:07 AM

Soylent - they have to estimate that you use a normal gas and drive normally. The lab data shows the gist of this argument

1 - gasoline has higher energy content than ethanol and thus gives better fuel mileage than blends.

2 - there is no way to give a perfectly accurate mpg number because of differences in fuel available, driving habits etc.

There is no need to question the "R" until you can fully differentiate all factors, so this is a good gauge of one car's mileage versus another

SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 4:24:59 PM

Thanks for the link. There's some interesting stuff there.

regarding the EPA test. I've read through the procedure. That's indolene clear. No ethanol. That's the reason for the "R factor" mentioned in one of the papers in your link: ...Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) incorporated the R factor into fuel economy calculations in order to address concerns about the impacts of test fuel property variations on corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) compliance, which is determined using the Federal Test Procedure (FTP) and Highway Fuel Economy Test (HFET) cycles. The R factor is defined as the ratio of the percent change in fuel economy to the percent change in volumetric heating value for tests conducted using two differing fuels."

They, basically, take test results from say SAE and apply those results as the R factor to all cars tested. Its an extrapolation.
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 3:33:21 PM

Of course they are using ethanol blended with indolene (both lab grade stuff - not what you get in your tank) for many of their experiments (but I guess it's all moot anyway in some worlds) - they use SAE labs for many of the tests -

sae

as well as their Ann Arbor NVFE lab - you may access their data at your leisure.

The data is out there, the facts are just that, and you can get 200mpg gallon in your car if you drive it properly on any given day (going downhill with the ignition off most of the time). They know what they are talking about, and not listening to them is fine, but until you have DATA and solid experimental design behind it, you are just bar talking.
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 2:56:05 PM

"but you choose to poo-poo them because they extrapolate - kind of like your take on indolene (not gasoline?? - uh, what is gasoline then?) "

Well, extrapolating is a pretty bid deal. I don't need to give you a chemistry lesson today. The take home message is the EPA test does not use ethanol. It's an extrapolation; a best guess from the people you claim to "more knowledge about it, and more history and data than any other organization." Doesn't make any difference how many big brains they have in the room; They still don't have published data.
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 1:59:16 PM

Yes soylent they have no idea about anything - they are a bunch of wonks sitting in a room with blank walls and no inputs.

Your mileage or power may vary, as the engine and drivetrain in your car are only build to a standard, they are all individual.

The numbers they put out are the best that are possible - there are no labs running these kind of test with this much background as these folks - they have more knowledge about it, and more history and data than any other organization, but you choose to poo-poo them because they extrapolate - kind of like your take on indolene (not gasoline?? - uh, what is gasoline then?) - if you don't know, that's fine, questioning those soources that do without knowledge is where we all get into trouble.

SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 1:10:50 PM

"These guys have their methods down pat, and the standardization is key."

Correct, the EPA does not test ethanol or regular gasoline. They extrapolate results. So, their claims about mileage reductions are meaningless or more power generated by using ethanol are meaningless. When a summary article uses words like typically, roughly, or could; that's not concrete data. That's speculation.
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 12:14:27 PM

And yes soylent, the reason they use the fuel is because there is a long history, the chemistry is well understood, and it is available readily. It is a gasoline, not some "super secret' test thing. You could even go buy it if you wish direct from BP or Exxon or Shell - they all supply it.

And as far as the ethanol content investigations go, it's all available soylent - you just have to know where to look. Here's from the gummint - from EPA and SAE data sources

fuel economy dot gov

And the reason that they use indolene (as they have since long before the ethanol mandate) is that it has been a standard for testing, just as the "air" they feed into the engins is kept at a standard temperature, and has a well documented standard mixture of atmoopheric components. By doing this they can come to a conclusion with basis, as opposed to anecdotal methods.

These guys have their methods down pat, and the standardization is key. You don't test fuel mileage buying "gas" from different stations and driving in different conditions - all you get is something to talk about over beer.

[Edited by: nru at 2/20/2015 12:14:56 PM EST]
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 11:25:17 AM

"Indolene Clear is an unleaded gasoline and free of oxygenates - that's all it's just a standard gasoline."

Kind of a big deal, don't you think, as the "oxygenates" contain less energy than the gasoline they are added to? MTBE, by the way, has even less energy than gasoline. Is that what you want to go back to?

"They also test many ethanol/Indolene blends, as does the SAE, and they share data. "

Perhaps. But, it doesn't do anyone any good if they aren't going to share the information with anyone. Regardless of the super secret EPA data, the test used for estimating mileage with both gasoline and ethanol, that appears on the window sticker of a new car, is a calculated value from fuel you can not buy at the pump.
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 11:16:09 AM

Indolene Clear is an unleaded gasoline and free of oxygenates - that's all it's just a standard gasoline.

They also test many ethanol/Indolene blends, as does the SAE, and they share data.
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 9:10:37 AM

"We are mostly lay people on this forum, and I trust the experts more than a single study.

The EPA and SAE make their studies in closely controlled conditions, have thousands of times more data, and do it on a daily basis as part of a large group of dedicated engineer, scientists, and technicians."

You assume too much. There are some skilled individuals in these forums as well as the lay people you refer to. You just need to sort out which ones are worth paying attention to.

As far as the vast experience of the EPA; They don't test ethanol mileage or even gasoline, for that matter. The fuel used to calculate mileage is called indolene clear. It's a standard mixture of just several major components of gasoline. Mileage for both ethanol and regular gasoline is calculated from the test fuel. Neither gasoline nor ethanol is tested. Its the EPA's best guess at mileage.
stickyvalves
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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2015 8:35:33 AM

Unbelievable!
Darn ol' ethanol!
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 8:16:28 PM

Krzysiek - American Coalition for Ethanol? Consider the source. I worked some with Delphi in a past position, they made pressure sensors that were used in combustion studies till the whole debacle in 2008-9, they had access to state of the art testing facilities at GM labs in Michigan, and I remember some (some is the active word here) of what went on there, and the instrumentation of multiple engines was paramount in their studies. Much of that equipment was owned jointly with SAE, and most of that is still in use today (my current employer has supplied small numbers of MEMS sensors to them at times) and they run many examples of an engine type in controlled environments, monitoring fuel and air intake (controlled fuels and air) and come to different conclusions than the ACE. The have terabytes of data on every part of engine function at various load and temperature conditions for almost every engine certified (DOT contracts with them for cents), and they really know what they are talking about - why a cariologist can make better judgements about your heart that the local schoolteacher. We are mostly lay people on this forum, and I trust the experts more than a single study.

The EPA and SAE make their studies in closely controlled conditions, have thousands of times more data, and do it on a daily basis as part of a large group of dedicated engineer, scientists, and technicians. When they come to a different conclusion let me know. Till then, I would not believe that what ACE er judgements about your heart than the postsays is true on a fleet basis - anecdotal information is great for individuals, but does not translate to a population. I get better mileage in my car than the EPA says, but that's due to my driving style. And remember that properly inflated tires are a bigger part than straight gas or ethanol blend in this country.
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 7:19:04 PM

Study done using different vehicles and different E levels.

"HWFET testing on ethanol blend levels of E20 in the flex-fuel Chevrolet Impala, E30 in the non-flex-fuel Ford Fusion and Toyota Camry, and E40 in the non-flex-fuel Chevrolet Impala resulted in miles-per-gallon fuel economy greater than predicted based on per-gallon fuel Btu content. It is notable that the non-flex-fuel vehicles obtained greater fuel economy at higher blends of ethanol than they were designed for. In the case of the flex-fuel Chevrolet Impala, the highway fuel economy was greater than calculated for all tested blends, with an especially high peak at E20. While only three non-flex-fuel vehicles were tested in this study, there is a strong indication that non-flex-fuel vehicles operated on optimal ethanol blend levels, which are higher than the standard E10 blend, can obtain better fuel mileage than predicted by fuel energy content."

OPTIMAL ETHANOL BLEND-LEVEL INVESTIGATION
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 5:50:06 PM

nru wrote: "I do acknowledge that you have a good solution for lowering emmisions, and that ehtanol is a good fuel for high compression or highly boosted cars, but the mom and pop sedan will not be able to get the same mileage from any ethanol blend that straight gas gives them."

Sure they do, all my stock NA vehicles are able to accomplish it without any help. And I'm not the only one. There are plenty of posters on this forum that try different E mixtures and report similar results. You just have to be open to listen to their stories.
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 5:31:13 PM

one is a link to another blog - the other requires a complete knowledge of how to change an engine computer to accomodate the fuel. Neither makes for any sort of case for dads truckster. Even in a "low compression" automobile motor you see cylinder head pressures approaching 1000psi (62 bar) so I'm going to assume they were wroking on some sort of small, low compression motor for general usage (they were)

Find something from the SAE or EPA that back what you are saying - not a link to a blog. Same conditions apply.

The people who do this for a living are all convinced of the same thing, and use the same data to reach the same conclusion that I have outlined - they are not amateurs, and they know what they are talking about. If you disagree with the experts, please have at least a case that you can make with substantiating data.

I do acknowledge that you have a good solution for lowering emmisions, and that ehtanol is a good fuel for high compression or highly boosted cars, but the mom and pop sedan will not be able to get the same mileage from any ethanol blend that straight gas gives them.

[Edited by: nru at 2/19/2015 5:32:12 PM EST]
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 4:09:53 PM

Sure nru, no problem.

You can start with this forum alone, a quick example - BTU's are 35% less for Ethanol but we are not heating water...

From external sources:

"A positive trend between the ethanol content and efficiency of the engine was found. In the paper, the efficiency improvement was analyzed with the available experimental data and considering a range of variability of gasoline lower heating value of 41 - 44 ?MJ/kg. A minimum benefit of 3 - 4 % of engine efficiency improving was obtained. Therefore, a reduction of tank-to-wheel CO2 emission can be achieved using gasoline/ethanol blends if the engine control unit is able to set the correct spark advance. The same spark advance of the gasoline case could be used to achieve the found efficiency improvement and to reduce emissions upstream the three-way catalyst."

Effect of Ethanol Content on Thermal Efficiency of a Spark-Ignition Light-Duty Engine
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 12:35:39 PM

Ok - then please tell us what the other factors in "factors such as thermal energy" are? I'm expecting a pretty good response, not just telling others they don't know something -

What specific factors influence equivilantly tuned modern low to mid compression gasline developed engines for fuel mileage

Ones that the engine computer can control

Others that are more specific to the mechanical design of the motor (combustion chamber design/valve design/port design given that fuel and fuel air ratio as well as rich/lean conditions are computer controlled via MAF/fuel rail pressure/and pre-cat O2 sensors)
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 12:12:14 PM

nru wrote: "The reason you are interested in energy density in BTU/gallon (calories per gallon, Joules per gallon etc) is that that is how much energy you could possibly get out of a gallon of given liquid used for propulsion of a car. Things like vapor pressure may make some liquids unusable for a particular engine design, but sources that are usable will have a direct correlation between energy density and fuel economy. Exactly why the EPA and all other sources that accurately measure things like that can use the BTU density as a measure between fuel sources. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's just fact."

Once again, you are concentrating on part of the equation, and try to sell it as a whole. That is plainly wrong.
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 12:04:16 PM

"I'm aware that BTU was mentioned in this report. That does not change a fact that it is not the only factor in play. Trying to sell it as the only thing that matters does not change that fact. I was hinting to you that there is more to it, and you are still welcomed to look into other factors such as thermal energy."

BTU/calories/Joules - all measurements (that can be converted easily from one and another) are the fundamental measurement units of thermal energy. You can also express it in kinetic energy (I work on TAT probes for instance - if you know about thermal energy measurments you must be familiar with these) and other methods, but they all boil down to the same thing.

The reason you are interested in energy density in BTU/gallon (calories per gallon, Joules per gallon etc) is that that is how much energy you could possibly get out of a gallon of given liquid used for propulsion of a car. Things like vapor pressure may make some liquids unusable for a particular engine design, but sources that are usable will have a direct correlation between energy density and fuel economy. Exactly why the EPA and all other sources that accurately measure things like that can use the BTU density as a measure between fuel sources. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's just fact.



[Edited by: nru at 2/19/2015 12:06:53 PM EST]
litesong
Sophomore Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 10:49:36 AM

stickyvalves stumbled:
Go ahead, just blame that nasty ol' ethanol!
Our wind chill is -30F this am.
/////////
Banjoe bluffed:
-30C here this morning. Darn that nasty ole ethanol for causing too much cooling.
///////
litesong wrote:
Increased AGW energy in the Polar Vortex has increasingly driven Arctic cold to the south, over eastern Canada & U.S.
////////
stickyvalves stumbled:
This is a lighthearted discussion thread. Kindly take your global warming arguments elsewhere.
////////
litesong wrote:
stickyvalves suddenly lost its lightheartedness because of its light headedness. Now that is FUNNY!!!

krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 10:48:48 AM

litesong wrote: "Gasoline engine engineers designed gasoline engines to work best with 100% gasoline. Ethanol engine engineers designed ethanol engines to work best with ethanol. krzysiek believes gasoline engine engineers designed gasoline engines to work best with 100% gasoline & ethanol, & that ethanol burns as efficiently in gasoline engines as in ethanol engines."

You still did not answer my question. Feel free do to so.

How exactly does a gasoline engine burn gasoline efficiently? I asked this question before and I'm still waiting for you to answer it. Gasoline contains high octane chemicals such as Xylene, 145 RON and 124 MON octane rating. Yet you claim the same engine cannot burn Ethanol, rated as 124 RON and 106 MON octane rating, efficiently.

litesong wrote: "How exactly does a gasoline engine, designed to burn 100% gasoline efficiently, burn ethanol efficiently, also?"

Answer my question first, and maybe it will give you an idea on the answer you are seeking. Although I highly doubt that.
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 10:43:57 AM

nru wrote: "your study (page 36 of 135, section 3.1) states an average reduction of 7.7% in fuel economy. I did read it and it backs exactly what I earlier stated for exactly the same reason. And how could you gauge my lack of understanding of thermal efficiency - I might have a pretty good understanding of it (I did pretty well in thermodynamics in grad school - have not really used it since, but my memory is not that bad yet)."

It is not my study. You quotes EPA and that is the report that EPA used to get their numbers. The interesting part of that report, at least to me, that E0 used is not what you put in your tank at the gas station. It is rather "certification gasoline, i.e., Indolene". It could explain different outcomes though.

nru wrote: "The heating water is about energy content (BTU's, calories, whatever measure you want to use) and is exactly what is stated by the epa as the reason they get reduced gas mileage using ethanol blends, and is also cited as the reason in your study."

I'm aware that BTU was mentioned in this report. That does not change a fact that it is not the only factor in play. Trying to sell it as the only thing that matters does not change that fact. I was hinting to you that there is more to it, and you are still welcomed to look into other factors such as thermal energy.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/19/2015 10:44:33 AM EST]
stickyvalves
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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2015 8:04:17 AM

This is a lighthearted discussion thread. Kindly take your global warming arguments elsewhere.

Now that darn ethanol is affecting the sense of humor. Has to be the fumes doing it. Darn ol' ethanol.
litesong
Sophomore Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 11:46:19 PM


litesong wrote: "You see, only adding 10% ethanol to gasoline to use(not burn effectively) in low compression ratio(9:1 to 12:1) gasoline engines, causes 8%, 7%, & 5% plunges in mpg."
///////
krzysiek koughed:
None of my vehicle experience MPG loss from using E10, or even E20.
///////
litesong wrote:
krzysiek jerry-rigs its gasoline vehicles so ethanol runs better & gasoline runs worse in its gasoline engines.
100% gasoline burns efficiently in standard gasoline engines.
//////
krzysiek koughed:
How exactly does a gasoline engine burn gasoline efficiently?
//////
litesong wrote:
Gasoline engine engineers designed gasoline engines to work best with 100% gasoline. Ethanol engine engineers designed ethanol engines to work best with ethanol. krzysiek believes gasoline engine engineers designed gasoline engines to work best with 100% gasoline & ethanol, & that ethanol burns as efficiently in gasoline engines as in ethanol engines.

Here's a question for krzysiek. How exactly does a gasoline engine, designed to burn 100% gasoline efficiently, burn ethanol efficiently, also?
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 10:05:37 PM

Krzysiek - your study (page 36 of 135, section 3.1) states an average reduction of 7.7% in fuel economy. I did read it and it backs exactly what I earlier stated for exactly the same reason. And how could you gauge my lack of understanding of thermal efficiency - I might have a pretty good understanding of it (I did pretty well in thermodynamics in grad school - have not really used it since, but my memory is not that bad yet).

The heating water is about energy content (BTU's, calories, whatever measure you want to use) and is exactly what is stated by the epa as the reason they get reduced gas mileage using ethanol blends, and is also cited as the reason in your study.

[Edited by: nru at 2/18/2015 10:10:58 PM EST]
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 8:14:46 PM

By the way nru, straight from the report used by EPA that you quoted:

"All fuels were splash blends of E0 (certification gasoline, i.e., Indolene) with fuel-grade ethanol (per ASTM D4806) supplied by Gage Products Company."

Feel free to read more, although I have a feeling you will not even do that - Effects of Intermediate Ethanol Blends on Legacy Vehicles and Small Non-Road Engines, Report 1 – Updated

I'm sure you knew a little about it as well.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/18/2015 8:17:20 PM EST]
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 7:57:58 PM

nru wrote: "No sir, it can't. I know a little about thermal efficiency, and those that are best educated in it will repeat what I am stating - you cannot get the same gas mileage from E10 as you can from straight gasoline, and the earth is not flat"

If you would know even a little about thermal efficiency you would not use heating water argument would you? So no sir, you know nothing about it. Once more, please educate yourself first and come back and let me know how "typically" silly your previous statements were.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/18/2015 8:00:25 PM EST]
nru
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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 5:03:48 PM

"Since ethanol contains about two-thirds as much energy as gasoline, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15 than on 100% gasoline"

Source - epa

No sir, it can't. I know a little about thermal efficiency, and those that are best educated in it will repeat what I am stating - you cannot get the same gas mileage from E10 as you can from straight gasoline, and the earth is not flat
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 4:52:27 PM

nru wrote: "can't be. E10 contains 96% of the energy of gasoline per gallon - E20 has 93%. You can't go as far on a gallon of ehtanol, you can't heat a gallon of water as much with it - there is not the same amount of energy stored in a gallon of E10 as a gallon of gas."

Sure it can, since I'm not heating the water but rather creating kinetic energy. Please educate yourself about thermal efficiency and maybe just maybe you will start figuring out that BTU is not the only thing in play.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/18/2015 4:57:23 PM EST]
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 4:21:15 PM

krsysiek - can't be. E10 contains 96% of the energy of gasoline per gallon - E20 has 93%. You can't go as far on a gallon of ehtanol, you can't heat a gallon of water as much with it - there is not the same amount of energy stored in a gallon of E10 as a gallon of gas.

Octane has nothing to do with gas mileage unless you can control the spark advance (not the computer - you personally), or your fuel vapor pressure is radically different - only a rating of detonation resistance for the most part. If you run a 14:1 or 15:1 motor, you will need either purple gas or ethanol, and if you boost it real hard (I used to run a 930 with dial a boost that I could run up to 16psi) you might need something of that nature. A race car is not the same thing as a street car, and a modern factory car will get worse mileage (check out the federal government data on it) with E10 or E20 - just chemistry.
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 1:57:22 PM

litesong wrote: "You see, only adding 10% ethanol to gasoline to use(not burn effectively) in low compression ratio(9:1 to 12:1) gasoline engines, causes 8%, 7%, & 5% plunges in mpg."

Wrong. None of my vehicle experience MPG loss from using E10, or even E20.

litesong wrote: "100% gasoline burns efficiently in gasoline engines."

How exactly does a gasoline engine burn gasoline efficiently? I asked this question before and I'm still waiting for you to answer it. Gasoline contains high octane chemicals such as Xylene, 145 RON and 124 MON octane rating. Yet you claim the same engine cannot burn Ethanol, rated as 124 RON and 106 MON octane rating, efficiently.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 2/18/2015 2:07:09 PM EST]
litesong
Sophomore Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 10:04:04 AM

stickyvalves stumbled:
Go ahead, just blame that nasty ol' ethanol!
Our wind chill is -30F this am.
Ethanol sucking so much heat away making 30mph wind gusts!
////////
litesong wrote:
Man-made global warming is causing the excess wind, windchill, & excess southerly driven Arctic cold, as detailed in my previous post.

[Edited by: litesong at 2/18/2015 10:06:30 AM EST]
litesong
Sophomore Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 9:52:46 AM

Banjoe bluffed:
-30C here this morning. Darn that nasty ole ethanol for causing too much cooling.
///////
litesong wrote:
Man-made global warming has been causing AGW heat to move into the High Arctic for decades & the High Arctic is presently -26degC, 4degC over temperature. Temperatures for the latter fall & all winter have been mostly over temperature in the Arctic. Increased AGW energy in the Polar Vortex has increasingly driven Arctic cold to the south, over eastern Canada & U.S. However, AGW is causing snow levels in the Pacific Northwest to be as low as 3% to 11% of normal snowpacks, & has set 11 warm records in Seattle already for 2015! February has had early May temperatures. On park benches near lakes with the sun reflection, I have had to move or strip to my T-shirt to keep from sweating at the 48th parallel. Never have our winters been so continuously balmy.

You see, only adding 10% ethanol to gasoline to use(not burn effectively) in low compression ratio(9:1 to 12:1) gasoline engines, causes 8%, 7%, & 5% plunges in mpg. More CO2 producing gasoline is used to make ethanol, support the "ethanol in gasoline industry" & waste in gasoline engines than ethanol can ever save in 100% gasoline. Yes, ethanol causes MORE gasoline to be burned, not less.This is easy to understand. Ethanol needs ethanol engines to burn efficiently. 100% gasoline burns efficiently in gasoline engines. Ethanol used (not burned efficiently) in gasoline engines does NOT work. Darn that nasty ole ethanol!!!!!

[Edited by: litesong at 2/18/2015 9:55:23 AM EST]
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 9:33:20 AM

Go ahead, just blame that nasty ol' ethanol!
Our wind chill is -30F this am.
Ethanol sucking so much heat away making 30mph wind gusts!
Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Feb 18, 2015 8:24:21 AM

-30C here this morning. Darn that nasty ole ethanol for causing too much cooling.
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2015 9:48:04 PM

Too hot again. Darn ethanol causing too much warming.
litesong
Sophomore Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2015 11:32:26 AM

forestghost7 wrote:
Motor was running on (dieseling) at shutoff so bad it sounded like self-destruct. Owner had been feeding it 87 oct E10. I immediately filled the tank with "Rec 90" 90 oct. ethanol-free marine fuel from my local Valero. With just 1/2 tank consumed the dieseling stopped, and 1000 miles later has not recurred.
/////////
litesong wrote:
87 octane E10 is comprised of 114 octane ethanol AND 84 octane gasoline base, so the 84 octane gasoline was dieseling. Considering you used only half a tank of octane 90 E0 to stop the dieseling, a full tank of 87 octane E0 also would have stopped the dieseling.
Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Feb 8, 2015 8:43:16 AM

Gas prices were up, then they were way down, and now quickly climbing up again. Darn that nasty ole ethanol!
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