Not Logged In Log In   Sign Up   Points Leaders
Follow Us    7:37 PM

Message Forum - Read Message

Category: All Things Ethanol > Topics Add to favorite topics   Post new topicPost New Topic
Author Topic: Darn, that nasty ole ethanol. Back to Topics
goldseeker

Champion Author
West Virginia

Posts:23,991
Points:3,610,055
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: May 21, 2013 4:01:25 AM

Just fired my up my ride mower this past weekend. In fact it fired right up. It had set for 6 months with a partial tank of e10. I even topped the tank off with e10 that had been stored in a gas can for several months.

Guess what? No phase separation, no degraded fuel line, and no corrosion.

Should I be disappointed? That nasty ole ethanol did not do what it was suppose to.

Guess those armchair experts were wrong again.
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
Profile Pic
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

Posts:8,138
Points:2,282,000
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 8:39:56 AM

That nasty ol' ethanol did it again. Just plain a bad actor!
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:23,991
Points:3,610,055
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 4:37:22 AM

"Hate to break it to you but I worked on lawn machines and yes ethanol brings water from the air. Also eats away hoses. "

I hate to break it to you. You simply do not have a clue. I also worked on lawn machines and ethanol does not bring water from the air in a sealed tank, nor does it eat hoses.

Polymer chemists will uphold my statement. Polymer chemists design hoses and elastomers, and they are not fools.
Profile Pic
salvo222
Rookie Author Scranton

Posts:27
Points:111,400
Joined:Mar 2014
Message Posted: Apr 16, 2015 12:40:02 AM

Hate to break it to you but I worked on lawn machines and yes ethanol brings water from the air. Also eats away hoses.
Profile Pic
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

Posts:8,138
Points:2,282,000
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Apr 15, 2015 8:41:54 PM

Banjoe, that is why it is so noisy. Muffler bearings are rusty from ethanol residue.darn ethanol.
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:23,991
Points:3,610,055
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Apr 13, 2015 2:50:37 AM

I have been using E-10 fuel for 25 years with no problems on any lawn/power equipment, boats, inboard and outboard motors, and all different vehicles. I just can't see why anybody would be making claims that e-10 destorys engines and the such.
Profile Pic
YELLOWDOGLAS
Champion Author Virginia

Posts:1,764
Points:904,275
Joined:Aug 2011
Message Posted: Apr 12, 2015 9:58:25 AM

Seems odd any gas would go bad
Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Apr 12, 2015 9:56:45 AM

Most small and auto engine manufacturers void warranty for using E-85
Profile Pic
Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:9,650
Points:1,510,680
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Apr 12, 2015 9:30:26 AM

stickyvalves - I'm very surprised to hear that the wheels survived that evil stuff.

I expect your muffler bearings have been completely wasted by that darn nasty ole ethanol though.
Profile Pic
Floridaman2013
Champion Author Florida

Posts:3,247
Points:719,495
Joined:May 2013
Message Posted: Apr 12, 2015 9:11:02 AM

I have been using E-10 fuel for 20 years with no problems on any lawn/power equipment, boats, inboard and outboard motors, and all different vehicles. I just can't see why anybody would be making claims that e-10 destorys engines and the such.
Profile Pic
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

Posts:8,138
Points:2,282,000
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Apr 12, 2015 7:16:12 AM

And the wheels are still round!! Good ol' ethanol preservative!
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:23,991
Points:3,610,055
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Apr 12, 2015 3:41:42 AM

"You are lucky with no damage or degraded operation."

Sheesh! Some folks just do not have a clue.
Profile Pic
MikeCapeCoral
Champion Author Cape Coral

Posts:5,791
Points:1,316,215
Joined:Feb 2012
Message Posted: Apr 12, 2015 12:26:35 AM

You are lucky with no damage or degraded operation.
Profile Pic
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

Posts:8,138
Points:2,282,000
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Apr 11, 2015 9:40:40 PM

I rn my snow blower today just to warm it up. Probably will rust now since it has that darn ol' ethanol in its tank.
Profile Pic
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

Posts:8,138
Points:2,282,000
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Apr 11, 2015 9:39:15 PM

Lawn mower started and made noise. Something wrong.mthe ethanol did not ruin it. I must have left the tank too full.
Profile Pic
jb107
Champion Author New Jersey

Posts:13,012
Points:3,477,500
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Apr 11, 2015 9:15:57 AM

No way.
Profile Pic
Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:9,650
Points:1,510,680
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Apr 11, 2015 7:40:56 AM

stickyvalves - you left ethanol in your lawnmower over winter? Everything will now be melted and you will be needing a new blade and wheels.

Darn that nasty ole ethanol.
Profile Pic
giwan
Champion Author Michigan

Posts:1,722
Points:232,925
Joined:Aug 2009
Message Posted: Apr 8, 2015 2:12:54 PM

this stuff still around?
Profile Pic
Sylviak
Veteran Author Vancouver

Posts:357
Points:26,170
Joined:Mar 2011
Message Posted: Apr 8, 2015 2:09:44 PM

Nissan gets 25 mpg in town on 10% gasohol
Profile Pic
Sylviak
Veteran Author Vancouver

Posts:357
Points:26,170
Joined:Mar 2011
Message Posted: Apr 8, 2015 2:07:35 PM

I used 10% gasohol in my Toyota for 20 years, never an engine issue. Finally it was traded away when a 2010 Nissan was given to me. It will get 10% gasohol too.
Profile Pic
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

Posts:8,138
Points:2,282,000
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Apr 8, 2015 1:51:24 PM

Gonna check the lawn mower tonite. I left gasohol in it last fall. Suppose the tank has a hole in it now. Darn ol' ethanol probably ate a hole in it.
Profile Pic
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

Posts:8,138
Points:2,282,000
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Apr 6, 2015 5:47:25 PM

Think I will get my snow blower out again just to agitate the neighbors. Darn ol' ethanol caused all the snow to melt! Nutin' left to blow.
Profile Pic
skymaster337p
Rookie Author Anchorage

Posts:2
Points:2,840
Joined:Dec 2013
Message Posted: Mar 19, 2015 1:36:00 PM

I've noticed in the distant past, that alcohol fuel gets really crappy fuel mileage compared to straight gasoline.

It seems to make sense to me that if alcohol burns stoichiometric with a 7 to 1 air/fuel ratio, and, gasoline burns stoichiometric at 14 to 1 ratio, you're gonna use a lot more fuel with the alcohol mixed fuel.

I'm wondering if it's just another ploy to sell more gas at a higher price?
Profile Pic
Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

Posts:9,650
Points:1,510,680
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 15, 2015 2:08:25 PM

Well, so much for reasoned opinion.

Warm weather has taken the snow out of the yard and gotten the Seine moving so thank you darn nasty ole ethanol.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 15, 2015 2:03:00 PM

nru, your idiotic comments are a reflection of you and you alone. On the other hand, I don't mind having a lough at your expense, so keep them coming.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/15/2015 2:03:22 PM EST]
Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Mar 15, 2015 12:58:24 PM

yes krzysiek, ethanol corrodes bare aluminum, just like Oak Ridge says it does. And a comma is used to separate ideas in the adult world, so the appendix is indeed saying that they need the coating to make the aluminum impervious to corrosion.

And the parts of my engine will corrode over time with exposure to ethanol, but I am not going to take them apart to take pictures for someone who has limited comprehension of basics. You asked for which parts, I answered, too bad you fail to comprehend many things. I feel for you, but you have the capability to learn. Good luck, and keep reading catalogs so that you get the right marketing info.

[Edited by: nru at 3/15/2015 12:58:54 PM EST]
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 15, 2015 10:48:17 AM

nru wrote: "And a comma is used to separate things, or do you need a grammar book as well?"

Comma and word "AND" separates things. But of course you do not know meaning of a word "AND" nru AKA Big Clinton. It appears you prefer looking like an idiot.

Complete failure on your end, nru.

nru wrote: "Note that it also has the 10% limit on ethanol content."

First you claim that ethanol corrodes aluminium but then you back it up with MB owners manual claiming otherwise.

Complete failure on your end, nru.

nru wrote: "MAF, intake manifold, cylinder heads, block, liners, pistons, rods, .... None have coated surfaces, and all are machined (left bare)"

In this case please take a picture of your corroded MAF or intake manifold.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/15/2015 10:51:05 AM EST]
Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 11:58:43 PM

"304, A16061 and the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels" is not the same as "304, AL6061, and the coating materials"- or why the do not recommend bare aluminum (mentioned too many times), but that's beyond you for some reason.

I dunno, I guess you no more than the automotive engineers, SAE (automotive and aerospace), and Mercedes. Good luck in life there, bud, No one can convince you of anything, and your need to interpret things in your on manner does not make for wild claims on my part

"You brought up the automotive applications not me. Show me the parts of your car that are made out of "bare aluminum"."

MAF, intake manifold, cylinder heads, block, liners, pistons, rods, .... None have coated surfaces, and all are machined (left bare)

Here's my owners manual as well

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/service_and_parts/owners_manuals#!year=2009&class=CLK-Class

Note that it also has the 10% limit on ethanol content.

"It does not work this way. You made a wild claim and you continue to fail provide any supporting documentation."

I am again sorry that you fail to comprehend things, but that's not my problem. Again, why do they recommend against bare aluminum (no alloy mentioned) and then say that 6061 is good uncoated - does not make sense, maybe it does to you, maybe you are a metallurgist is disguise, but I doubt it. And a comma is used to separate things, or do you need a grammar book as well?


[Edited by: nru at 3/14/2015 11:59:40 PM EST]
Profile Pic
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

Posts:8,138
Points:2,282,000
Joined:Oct 2005
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 9:23:20 PM

Frost will go out soon. Nasty ethanol is causing extra warming.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 9:11:49 PM

nru wrote: "Actual text of what you continue to misquote and fail to understand- show me something else."

How exactly am I misquoting? Is "ALSO" or "AND" not there? Are you simply full of it? We know the answers, don't we.

nru wrote: "Please explain table 2.2 in the same study as well - why would a national lab say to AVOID bare aluminum in ethanol applications given what you postulate as their interpretation?"

You brought up the automotive applications not me. Show me the parts of your car that are made out of "bare aluminum".

nru wrote: "If the had meant uncoated AL6061, it would read "Al6061, and " - no comma in what is written (note the comma between "304 stainless steel" and "Al6061" (they use a comma to separate things in most cases) - sorry for your confusion."

Complete failure on your part once again. What a surprise.

nru wrote: "show me something from SAE or a national lab that contradicts my assertions"

It does not work this way. You made a wild claim and you continue to fail provide any supporting documentation.
Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 6:37:53 PM

"Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were also evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 and the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels. The oxide coatings on both Al alloys provided effective corrosion protection in the alternative fuel environments."

Actual text of what you continue to misquote and fail to understand- show me something else. Sales catalogs are great for tables, show me something from SAE or a national lab that contradicts my assertions -

Please explain table 2.2 in the same study as well - why would a national lab say to AVOID bare aluminum in ethanol applications given what you postulate as their interpretation? If the had meant uncoated AL6061, it would read "Al6061, and " - no comma in what is written (note the comma between "304 stainless steel" and "Al6061" (they use a comma to separate things in most cases) - sorry for your confusion.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 5:50:41 PM

wrote: "You can read into things what you want, problem is that you can't find science to back you up. Sales catalogs are not cutting it."

You have mentioned two different outside sources and both of them completely disagree with your wild claims. That was already explained to you. Three DIFFERENT chemical resistance charts disagree with you, and that was already covered.
Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 5:34:17 PM

Then pleased eplain why national labs recommend against bare aluminum in contact with ethanol bearing fuels (or maybe they are just stupid enough to contradict themselves in their own study), as does SAE and Mercedes. Plain English in my owners manuals, plain English in ORNL table on material recommendations, and plain English in all SAE papers. Explain why the table in the study specifically says "bare aluminum" is not recommended. But maybe octane is the main driver in fuel mileage, and pigs really can fly.

You can read into things what you want, problem is that you can't find science to back you up. Sales catalogs are not cutting it.



[Edited by: nru at 3/14/2015 5:36:05 PM EST]
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 5:04:17 PM

nru wrote: "Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, - the relevant sentence in the paper - your comprehension is lacking still"

Actually yours does, nru AKA Bill Clinton. First you straggled understanding word IS. Now you completely fail to understand words ALSO and AND.

"Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were ALSO evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 AND the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels."

You fail completely again, nru. What a surprise.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/14/2015 5:06:24 PM EST]
Profile Pic
twt
Champion Author Virginia Beach

Posts:14,266
Points:1,819,060
Joined:Mar 2005
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 1:36:22 PM

you will pay a premium for non ethanol.
Profile Pic
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:1,696
Points:32,220
Joined:Nov 2012
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 1:35:07 PM

This attempt to develop a construct, whereby ethanol eats aluminum, seems pointless, as car makers have made E10 compatible engines for over 30 years and E85 engines for well over a decade.
Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 12:41:17 PM

"Another Chemical Resistance Chart proves you wrong. Ethanol looks well comparing to Benzene, Toluene, and Xylene, chemcicals used in gasoline."

yep - Aluminum (B-okay, not great, but okay) - no notion of alloy, no notion of temper, no notion of coatings.

Find me something from a real source - too bad my first link was cut off (gas buddy thing - second was the same thing without the cutoff) - check page 3 for a national lab take on compatibility - see the table, bottom left, "bare aluminum" specifically motioned as to "avoid" But you know better than a national lab, people who research the stuff and have scientific backgrounds (not pharmacy with a marketing emphasis), but rather those who actually give advice to the real world aerospace and automotive industries..

"nru wrote: "No, Al6061 and 319 specimens were all anodized for their study."

Wrong. What a surprise."

Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, - the relevant sentence in the paper - your comprehension is lacking still

Hmmm, you fail to understand again, I guess from a person who thinks octane has something to do with mileage and energy content, that just continues. The table lists compatible (no aluminum) and incompatible materials as recommended by a national lab, kinda trumps a catalog from a gasket company. You may argue with the messenger, but your lack of comprehension in reading a simple table is kind of telling.

Ethanol can be made completely compatible with a fuel system, if you avoid bare aluminum, many elastomers, and other materials noted. Many automobile companies have done this, and modern computers make it so that the spark advance and fuel mixture will allow almost any concentration of ethanol in fuels used. Mercedes and many other manufacturers have not made that step, and thus recommend not using said fuels, and void warranties for it as well You may argue with me, but the engineers who designed my car probably know better than you, as do the FAA with their take on ethanol in fuel delivery systems.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 11:53:08 AM

Toloune - Toluene is a common solvent, e.g. for paints, paint thinners, silicone sealants,[13] many chemical reactants, rubber, printing ink, adhesives (glues), lacquers, leather tanners, and disinfectants. Toluene

Benzene - Prior to the 1920s, benzene was frequently used as an industrial solvent, especially for degreasing metal. As its toxicity became obvious, benzene was supplanted by other solvents, especially toluene (methyl benzene), which has similar physical properties but is not as carcinogenic. Benzene

Xylene - Xylene is used as a solvent. In this application, mixture of isomers is often referred to as xylenes or xylol. Solvent xylene often contains a small percentage of ethylbenzene. Like the individual isomers, the mixture is colorless, sweet-smelling, and highly flammable. Areas of application include the printing, rubber, and leather industries. It is a common component of ink, rubber, and adhesives.[12] In thinning paints and varnishes, it can be substituted for toluene where slower drying is desired, and thus is used by conservators of art objects in solubility testing.[13] Similarly it is a cleaning agent, e.g., for steel, silicon wafers, and integrated circuits. In dentistry, xylene can be used to dissolve gutta percha, a material used for endodontics (root canal treatments). In the petroleum industry, xylene is also a frequent component of paraffin solvents, used when the tubing becomes clogged with paraffin wax. For similar reasons, it is often the active ingredient in commercial products for ear wax (cerumen) removal.Xylene

Welcome to BTEX compounds found in gasoline including E0.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/14/2015 11:58:49 AM EST]
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 11:40:29 AM

nru wrote: "No, Al6061 and 319 specimens were all anodized for their study."

Wrong. What a surprise.

First link - failure to post. What a surprise

Second link - Two of out three mentioned sources lists Aluminum as Yes in E85, look at the table. Only E85 Handbook 2008 lists differently.

You continue to fail miserably. What a surprise.

Another Chemical Resistance Chart proves you wrong. Ethanol looks well comparing to Benzene, Toluene, and Xylene, chemcicals used in gasoline.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/14/2015 11:44:28 AM EST]
Profile Pic
jpaul101
Sophomore Author Texas

Posts:186
Points:65,600
Joined:Mar 2015
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 9:09:33 AM

You can still buy non-ethanol gas but you will pay a premium for it. Figure that.
Profile Pic
gsogb1
Rookie Author Greensboro

Posts:28
Points:39,365
Joined:Jul 2014
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 9:04:00 AM

next time you let your gasoline canister sit for a while dont move it but take a look inside and look very closely at the bottom and nudge it just a little and you will see the "ethanol bubble" at the bottom of the canister.
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:23,991
Points:3,610,055
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 5:14:23 AM

And.....according to chemical compatibility charts charts ethanol has a good compatibility rating with aluminum. "Minor Effect, slight corrosion or discoloration."

The slight corrosion is rendered ineffective with the addition of corossion inhibitors.

I suppose that my 24 year old push mower with an aluminum block, that has over 20 years of ethanol blended fuels in it won't last much longer.

Darn, that nasty ole ethanol!

[Edited by: goldseeker at 3/14/2015 5:14:59 AM EST]
Profile Pic
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:1,696
Points:32,220
Joined:Nov 2012
Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 2:12:23 AM

"You still refuse to understand - ethanol is a mild acid, and will corrode most metals. "

BS. Ethanol, C2H5OH, is neutral to basic in water. With the small amount of ionization that could occur, a hydroxyl group (OH) would go into solution producing an alkaline solution, not acidic. But, it makes little difference if ethanol produces an acidic or basic solution. Ethanol, when mixed with aliphatic hydrocarbons, like those used for gasoline, would remain unionized and produce neither an acidic or basic solution.

Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 11:29:44 PM

"First you make a wild claim about ethanol being "corrosive to most metals" in automotive applications. Than you try to sell pipeline study to backup your wild claim. You continue to push your wild claim, especially in regards to Aluminum 6061, when the pipeline study lists aluminum 6061, and 304 stainless steel, with or without oxide coatings compatible with ethanol." No, Al6061 and 319 specimens were all anodized for their study. See their chart of "preferred" materials - you will note a definitive lack of aluminum in said chart. Not just my recommendation - theirs which you are using a basis - wrongly.

You still refuse to understand - ethanol is a mild acid, and will corrode most metals. What you are not supposed to do is place bare aluminum, magnesium, or copper into direct contact with ethanol for long periods of time,

Ok -
[L=http://www.academia.edu/772768/text deleted incremental rate from water added[/L]

And just so you can understand it

http://www.iea-amf.org/content/fuel_information/ethanol/e10/e10_compatibility#material_compatibility

this is a study from the advanced motor fuels group - they advocate for ethanol and specifically mention in the paper that aluminum is not a good choice for high ethanol content fuels. Even though the say its "ok" for use in E10, the industry I work in does not follow that for exactly the same reason I have stated before - placing a mild acid in contact with a material that bears magnesium (AL6061 - about 1%Mg) will result in surface corrosion without oxide treatments.

The aerospace industry does not allow for use of ethanol fuels in applications unless there is sufficient water content to allow aluminums to be in contact (SAE paper 2005-01-3708) - I had to deal with that in a fuel sensor that is on an Embraer craft.

My car warranty specifically is (was - newest one is a 2009) voided for use of high alcohol fuels for that reason - I posted the test from the manual in an earlier post.

If you have documents that back your claim (instead of a faulty interpretation of my documents), please post them. Especially ones from SAE or another group that is not an advocate, but rather deals with reliability and safety of systems, You probably won't find them, but if you do, I would be interested - Aluminum is much cheaper to machine for fuel systems that the standard stainless used in aerospace. Until you have SAE or nat lab data that shows me wrong, I am probably not going to be swayed.


[Edited by: nru at 3/13/2015 11:33:27 PM EST]
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 10:16:54 PM

Let me recap, nru.

First you make a wild claim about ethanol being "corrosive to most metals" in automotive applications. Than you try to sell pipeline study to backup your wild claim. You continue to push your wild claim, especially in regards to Aluminum 6061, when the pipeline study lists aluminum 6061, and 304 stainless steel, with or without oxide coatings compatible with ethanol.

"Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were ALSO evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 AND the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels."

You fail completely nru.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/13/2015 10:18:51 PM EST]
Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 11:13:24 AM

krsysiek -

above that you and they also note that anodized or hardcoated Al6061 is what they are talking about - anodized and hardcoated material is very different than bare aluminum.

Al6061 without anodize or hardcoat is very susceptible to corrosion in ehtanol environments - you need to coat the aluminum to make it corrosion resistant.

From your earlier post - "Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were also evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 and the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels. The oxide coatings on both Al alloys provided effective corrosion protection in the alternative fuel environments."

This is very different than bare aluminum, kind of like the difference between sheet steel and zinc plated steel used in most cars

[Edited by: nru at 3/13/2015 11:13:50 AM EST]
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 10:36:56 AM

nru wrote: "Your point is again shown false, due to lack of comprehension of what you are reading and citing, but I would not expect it from you. They machine the intake manifold and put it one your car - they do not spend the money to anodize or hardcoat it. Your 6061 Aluminum surfaces are as bare as can be, and will corrode with exposure to ehtanol."

I'm not the one who fails to understand the content that he/she links to. Once again.

"In the ethanol fuel environment, the Al6061 might have a similar or even lower corrosion rate than 304 stainless steel."

"With increasing ethanol content, the corrosion resistance of the Al319 alloy decreases, while the corrosion resistance of the Al6061 alloy increases"

Complete failure by nru.
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:23,991
Points:3,610,055
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 4:04:26 AM

"So, either GM is manufacturing cars across the board with expensive ethanol resistant components or the whole issue of ethanol eating metal is a tad overblown."

You are spot on soylentgrain. This is a non issue and has been for decades. It is a well known fact that ethanol companies add corrosion inhibitors to the mix. Guess what? Gasoline companies do too.

So unless you are brewing your own ethanol fuels, the corrosion issue is not an issue at all.
Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 7:27:53 PM

Gm started putting thermoplastic manifolds on many cars in the early/mid 90's. Most of the rest of the world has not gone that way. But the materials listed IF used in your intake system are still vulnerable. I was not saying that any engine would have aluminum intakes (my newest car has a carbon fibre intake with aluminum heads, and the mfr specifically says to avoid ethanol >10% in it - germans), but many cars are now okay with almost any ethanol mixture. My 2002 (MB as well) has an aluminum intake manifold, aluminum heads, and the rest of the fuel system is stainless (including the fuel injectors) - the owners manual specifically states

"Unleaded gasoline containing oxygenates such as
Ethanol, IPA, IBA and TBA can be used provided the
ratio of any one of these oxygenates to gasoline does not
exceed 10%, MTBE not to exceed 15%."
Page 308, 2002 MB CLK55 owners manual, same phrasing in the 2009 CLK63 owners manual

Like I stated before, many fuel delivery parts are NOT compatible with ethanol, and you should avoid using high concentrations of alcohol in your fuel if this is the case. If your full delivery system is compatible, then do as you please, you will not get the same gas mileage for fuel energy reasons, but you will not be supporting Putin of the terrorists either.

BTW - the 2015 E63 is also not supposed to take more than 10% alcohol, but the 2016 one is rumored to allow it.

[Edited by: nru at 3/12/2015 7:28:37 PM EST]
Profile Pic
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:1,696
Points:32,220
Joined:Nov 2012
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 6:04:04 PM

"There are hot rod shops that will sell anodized manifolds, and you can get your own done as well, but the base manufacturer of you car (unless it's a very high end one) will not spend the money to anodize your parts."

Aluminum manifolds? Most of the new cars I have purchased or looked at over the past 15 years have composite manifolds. The reality is GM used to charge a premium for all the specialized parts and technology in their E85 compatible engines. It cost me a whopping $200 to upgrade to the E85 5.3L engine on my 2002 Tahoe. Today, many GM models are only available as E85 compatible. So, either GM is manufacturing cars across the board with expensive ethanol resistant components or the whole issue of ethanol eating metal is a tad overblown.
Profile Pic
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:7,267
Points:1,876,125
Joined:Feb 2006
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 5:05:36 PM

"Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys,"

I doubt that you own a car that has most of the fuel system aluminum pieces anodized or PEO'ed - and your inability to understand this in no way makes my claim "wild". There are hot rod shops that will sell anodized manifolds, and you can get your own done as well, but the base manufacturer of you car (unless it's a very high end one) will not spend the money to anodize your parts.

Your point is again shown false, due to lack of comprehension of what you are reading and citing, but I would not expect it from you. They machine the intake manifold and put it one your car - they do not spend the money to anodize or hardcoat it. Your 6061 Aluminum surfaces are as bare as can be, and will corrode with exposure to ehtanol.
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:9,004
Points:1,500,510
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 1:30:35 PM

nru wrote: "It's just an actual study of corrosion of materials when expose to ethanol - mentions things like 6061 aluminum and stuff like that. Shows which aluminum materials and which metals corrode when exposed to ethanol, that's all. Btw - in all probability your intake manifold and possibly the bodies of you fuel injectors are made with 6061 - mine are."

Here are the quotes from the Ethanol Pipeline Corrosion Literature Study you failed to link to or quote properly. I'm looking at any information that would support your wild claim about 6061 aluminum alloys not being compatible with ethanol.

"Corrosion performances of several metallic materials (Al6061 and Al319 alloys, 304 stainless steel and grey cast iron) in the ethanol-gasoline alternative fuels were investigated. Cyclic potentiodynamic polarization tests were used to study their corrosion behavior. Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were also evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 and the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels. The oxide coatings on both Al alloys provided effective corrosion protection in the alternative fuel environments."

"In the ethanol fuel environment, the Al6061 might have a similar or even lower corrosion rate than 304 stainless steel."

"With increasing ethanol content, the corrosion resistance of the Al319 alloy decreases, while the corrosion resistance of the Al6061 alloy increases"

Thank you for proving my point. On the other hand, your intake manifold and injectors made out of 6061 aluminum alloys are perfectly safe.
Post a reply Back to Topics