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Author Topic: Darn, that nasty ole ethanol. Back to Topics
goldseeker
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West Virginia

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Message Posted: May 21, 2013 4:01:25 AM

Just fired my up my ride mower this past weekend. In fact it fired right up. It had set for 6 months with a partial tank of e10. I even topped the tank off with e10 that had been stored in a gas can for several months.

Guess what? No phase separation, no degraded fuel line, and no corrosion.

Should I be disappointed? That nasty ole ethanol did not do what it was suppose to.

Guess those armchair experts were wrong again.
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
skymaster337p
Rookie Author Anchorage

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2015 1:36:00 PM

I've noticed in the distant past, that alcohol fuel gets really crappy fuel mileage compared to straight gasoline.

It seems to make sense to me that if alcohol burns stoichiometric with a 7 to 1 air/fuel ratio, and, gasoline burns stoichiometric at 14 to 1 ratio, you're gonna use a lot more fuel with the alcohol mixed fuel.

I'm wondering if it's just another ploy to sell more gas at a higher price?
Banjoe
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2015 2:08:25 PM

Well, so much for reasoned opinion.

Warm weather has taken the snow out of the yard and gotten the Seine moving so thank you darn nasty ole ethanol.
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2015 2:03:00 PM

nru, your idiotic comments are a reflection of you and you alone. On the other hand, I don't mind having a lough at your expense, so keep them coming.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/15/2015 2:03:22 PM EST]
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2015 12:58:24 PM

yes krzysiek, ethanol corrodes bare aluminum, just like Oak Ridge says it does. And a comma is used to separate ideas in the adult world, so the appendix is indeed saying that they need the coating to make the aluminum impervious to corrosion.

And the parts of my engine will corrode over time with exposure to ethanol, but I am not going to take them apart to take pictures for someone who has limited comprehension of basics. You asked for which parts, I answered, too bad you fail to comprehend many things. I feel for you, but you have the capability to learn. Good luck, and keep reading catalogs so that you get the right marketing info.

[Edited by: nru at 3/15/2015 12:58:54 PM EST]
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2015 10:48:17 AM

nru wrote: "And a comma is used to separate things, or do you need a grammar book as well?"

Comma and word "AND" separates things. But of course you do not know meaning of a word "AND" nru AKA Big Clinton. It appears you prefer looking like an idiot.

Complete failure on your end, nru.

nru wrote: "Note that it also has the 10% limit on ethanol content."

First you claim that ethanol corrodes aluminium but then you back it up with MB owners manual claiming otherwise.

Complete failure on your end, nru.

nru wrote: "MAF, intake manifold, cylinder heads, block, liners, pistons, rods, .... None have coated surfaces, and all are machined (left bare)"

In this case please take a picture of your corroded MAF or intake manifold.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/15/2015 10:51:05 AM EST]
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 11:58:43 PM

"304, A16061 and the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels" is not the same as "304, AL6061, and the coating materials"- or why the do not recommend bare aluminum (mentioned too many times), but that's beyond you for some reason.

I dunno, I guess you no more than the automotive engineers, SAE (automotive and aerospace), and Mercedes. Good luck in life there, bud, No one can convince you of anything, and your need to interpret things in your on manner does not make for wild claims on my part

"You brought up the automotive applications not me. Show me the parts of your car that are made out of "bare aluminum"."

MAF, intake manifold, cylinder heads, block, liners, pistons, rods, .... None have coated surfaces, and all are machined (left bare)

Here's my owners manual as well

http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/service_and_parts/owners_manuals#!year=2009&class=CLK-Class

Note that it also has the 10% limit on ethanol content.

"It does not work this way. You made a wild claim and you continue to fail provide any supporting documentation."

I am again sorry that you fail to comprehend things, but that's not my problem. Again, why do they recommend against bare aluminum (no alloy mentioned) and then say that 6061 is good uncoated - does not make sense, maybe it does to you, maybe you are a metallurgist is disguise, but I doubt it. And a comma is used to separate things, or do you need a grammar book as well?


[Edited by: nru at 3/14/2015 11:59:40 PM EST]
stickyvalves
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 9:23:20 PM

Frost will go out soon. Nasty ethanol is causing extra warming.
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 9:11:49 PM

nru wrote: "Actual text of what you continue to misquote and fail to understand- show me something else."

How exactly am I misquoting? Is "ALSO" or "AND" not there? Are you simply full of it? We know the answers, don't we.

nru wrote: "Please explain table 2.2 in the same study as well - why would a national lab say to AVOID bare aluminum in ethanol applications given what you postulate as their interpretation?"

You brought up the automotive applications not me. Show me the parts of your car that are made out of "bare aluminum".

nru wrote: "If the had meant uncoated AL6061, it would read "Al6061, and " - no comma in what is written (note the comma between "304 stainless steel" and "Al6061" (they use a comma to separate things in most cases) - sorry for your confusion."

Complete failure on your part once again. What a surprise.

nru wrote: "show me something from SAE or a national lab that contradicts my assertions"

It does not work this way. You made a wild claim and you continue to fail provide any supporting documentation.
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 6:37:53 PM

"Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were also evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 and the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels. The oxide coatings on both Al alloys provided effective corrosion protection in the alternative fuel environments."

Actual text of what you continue to misquote and fail to understand- show me something else. Sales catalogs are great for tables, show me something from SAE or a national lab that contradicts my assertions -

Please explain table 2.2 in the same study as well - why would a national lab say to AVOID bare aluminum in ethanol applications given what you postulate as their interpretation? If the had meant uncoated AL6061, it would read "Al6061, and " - no comma in what is written (note the comma between "304 stainless steel" and "Al6061" (they use a comma to separate things in most cases) - sorry for your confusion.
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 5:50:41 PM

wrote: "You can read into things what you want, problem is that you can't find science to back you up. Sales catalogs are not cutting it."

You have mentioned two different outside sources and both of them completely disagree with your wild claims. That was already explained to you. Three DIFFERENT chemical resistance charts disagree with you, and that was already covered.
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 5:34:17 PM

Then pleased eplain why national labs recommend against bare aluminum in contact with ethanol bearing fuels (or maybe they are just stupid enough to contradict themselves in their own study), as does SAE and Mercedes. Plain English in my owners manuals, plain English in ORNL table on material recommendations, and plain English in all SAE papers. Explain why the table in the study specifically says "bare aluminum" is not recommended. But maybe octane is the main driver in fuel mileage, and pigs really can fly.

You can read into things what you want, problem is that you can't find science to back you up. Sales catalogs are not cutting it.



[Edited by: nru at 3/14/2015 5:36:05 PM EST]
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 5:04:17 PM

nru wrote: "Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, - the relevant sentence in the paper - your comprehension is lacking still"

Actually yours does, nru AKA Bill Clinton. First you straggled understanding word IS. Now you completely fail to understand words ALSO and AND.

"Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were ALSO evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 AND the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels."

You fail completely again, nru. What a surprise.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/14/2015 5:06:24 PM EST]
twt
Champion Author Virginia Beach

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 1:36:22 PM

you will pay a premium for non ethanol.
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 1:35:07 PM

This attempt to develop a construct, whereby ethanol eats aluminum, seems pointless, as car makers have made E10 compatible engines for over 30 years and E85 engines for well over a decade.
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 12:41:17 PM

"Another Chemical Resistance Chart proves you wrong. Ethanol looks well comparing to Benzene, Toluene, and Xylene, chemcicals used in gasoline."

yep - Aluminum (B-okay, not great, but okay) - no notion of alloy, no notion of temper, no notion of coatings.

Find me something from a real source - too bad my first link was cut off (gas buddy thing - second was the same thing without the cutoff) - check page 3 for a national lab take on compatibility - see the table, bottom left, "bare aluminum" specifically motioned as to "avoid" But you know better than a national lab, people who research the stuff and have scientific backgrounds (not pharmacy with a marketing emphasis), but rather those who actually give advice to the real world aerospace and automotive industries..

"nru wrote: "No, Al6061 and 319 specimens were all anodized for their study."

Wrong. What a surprise."

Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, - the relevant sentence in the paper - your comprehension is lacking still

Hmmm, you fail to understand again, I guess from a person who thinks octane has something to do with mileage and energy content, that just continues. The table lists compatible (no aluminum) and incompatible materials as recommended by a national lab, kinda trumps a catalog from a gasket company. You may argue with the messenger, but your lack of comprehension in reading a simple table is kind of telling.

Ethanol can be made completely compatible with a fuel system, if you avoid bare aluminum, many elastomers, and other materials noted. Many automobile companies have done this, and modern computers make it so that the spark advance and fuel mixture will allow almost any concentration of ethanol in fuels used. Mercedes and many other manufacturers have not made that step, and thus recommend not using said fuels, and void warranties for it as well You may argue with me, but the engineers who designed my car probably know better than you, as do the FAA with their take on ethanol in fuel delivery systems.
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 11:53:08 AM

Toloune - Toluene is a common solvent, e.g. for paints, paint thinners, silicone sealants,[13] many chemical reactants, rubber, printing ink, adhesives (glues), lacquers, leather tanners, and disinfectants. Toluene

Benzene - Prior to the 1920s, benzene was frequently used as an industrial solvent, especially for degreasing metal. As its toxicity became obvious, benzene was supplanted by other solvents, especially toluene (methyl benzene), which has similar physical properties but is not as carcinogenic. Benzene

Xylene - Xylene is used as a solvent. In this application, mixture of isomers is often referred to as xylenes or xylol. Solvent xylene often contains a small percentage of ethylbenzene. Like the individual isomers, the mixture is colorless, sweet-smelling, and highly flammable. Areas of application include the printing, rubber, and leather industries. It is a common component of ink, rubber, and adhesives.[12] In thinning paints and varnishes, it can be substituted for toluene where slower drying is desired, and thus is used by conservators of art objects in solubility testing.[13] Similarly it is a cleaning agent, e.g., for steel, silicon wafers, and integrated circuits. In dentistry, xylene can be used to dissolve gutta percha, a material used for endodontics (root canal treatments). In the petroleum industry, xylene is also a frequent component of paraffin solvents, used when the tubing becomes clogged with paraffin wax. For similar reasons, it is often the active ingredient in commercial products for ear wax (cerumen) removal.Xylene

Welcome to BTEX compounds found in gasoline including E0.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/14/2015 11:58:49 AM EST]
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 11:40:29 AM

nru wrote: "No, Al6061 and 319 specimens were all anodized for their study."

Wrong. What a surprise.

First link - failure to post. What a surprise

Second link - Two of out three mentioned sources lists Aluminum as Yes in E85, look at the table. Only E85 Handbook 2008 lists differently.

You continue to fail miserably. What a surprise.

Another Chemical Resistance Chart proves you wrong. Ethanol looks well comparing to Benzene, Toluene, and Xylene, chemcicals used in gasoline.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/14/2015 11:44:28 AM EST]
jpaul101
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 9:09:33 AM

You can still buy non-ethanol gas but you will pay a premium for it. Figure that.
gsogb1
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 9:04:00 AM

next time you let your gasoline canister sit for a while dont move it but take a look inside and look very closely at the bottom and nudge it just a little and you will see the "ethanol bubble" at the bottom of the canister.
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 5:14:23 AM

And.....according to chemical compatibility charts charts ethanol has a good compatibility rating with aluminum. "Minor Effect, slight corrosion or discoloration."

The slight corrosion is rendered ineffective with the addition of corossion inhibitors.

I suppose that my 24 year old push mower with an aluminum block, that has over 20 years of ethanol blended fuels in it won't last much longer.

Darn, that nasty ole ethanol!

[Edited by: goldseeker at 3/14/2015 5:14:59 AM EST]
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2015 2:12:23 AM

"You still refuse to understand - ethanol is a mild acid, and will corrode most metals. "

BS. Ethanol, C2H5OH, is neutral to basic in water. With the small amount of ionization that could occur, a hydroxyl group (OH) would go into solution producing an alkaline solution, not acidic. But, it makes little difference if ethanol produces an acidic or basic solution. Ethanol, when mixed with aliphatic hydrocarbons, like those used for gasoline, would remain unionized and produce neither an acidic or basic solution.

nru
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 11:29:44 PM

"First you make a wild claim about ethanol being "corrosive to most metals" in automotive applications. Than you try to sell pipeline study to backup your wild claim. You continue to push your wild claim, especially in regards to Aluminum 6061, when the pipeline study lists aluminum 6061, and 304 stainless steel, with or without oxide coatings compatible with ethanol." No, Al6061 and 319 specimens were all anodized for their study. See their chart of "preferred" materials - you will note a definitive lack of aluminum in said chart. Not just my recommendation - theirs which you are using a basis - wrongly.

You still refuse to understand - ethanol is a mild acid, and will corrode most metals. What you are not supposed to do is place bare aluminum, magnesium, or copper into direct contact with ethanol for long periods of time,

Ok -
[L=http://www.academia.edu/772768/text deleted incremental rate from water added[/L]

And just so you can understand it

http://www.iea-amf.org/content/fuel_information/ethanol/e10/e10_compatibility#material_compatibility

this is a study from the advanced motor fuels group - they advocate for ethanol and specifically mention in the paper that aluminum is not a good choice for high ethanol content fuels. Even though the say its "ok" for use in E10, the industry I work in does not follow that for exactly the same reason I have stated before - placing a mild acid in contact with a material that bears magnesium (AL6061 - about 1%Mg) will result in surface corrosion without oxide treatments.

The aerospace industry does not allow for use of ethanol fuels in applications unless there is sufficient water content to allow aluminums to be in contact (SAE paper 2005-01-3708) - I had to deal with that in a fuel sensor that is on an Embraer craft.

My car warranty specifically is (was - newest one is a 2009) voided for use of high alcohol fuels for that reason - I posted the test from the manual in an earlier post.

If you have documents that back your claim (instead of a faulty interpretation of my documents), please post them. Especially ones from SAE or another group that is not an advocate, but rather deals with reliability and safety of systems, You probably won't find them, but if you do, I would be interested - Aluminum is much cheaper to machine for fuel systems that the standard stainless used in aerospace. Until you have SAE or nat lab data that shows me wrong, I am probably not going to be swayed.


[Edited by: nru at 3/13/2015 11:33:27 PM EST]
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 10:16:54 PM

Let me recap, nru.

First you make a wild claim about ethanol being "corrosive to most metals" in automotive applications. Than you try to sell pipeline study to backup your wild claim. You continue to push your wild claim, especially in regards to Aluminum 6061, when the pipeline study lists aluminum 6061, and 304 stainless steel, with or without oxide coatings compatible with ethanol.

"Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were ALSO evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 AND the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels."

You fail completely nru.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/13/2015 10:18:51 PM EST]
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 11:13:24 AM

krsysiek -

above that you and they also note that anodized or hardcoated Al6061 is what they are talking about - anodized and hardcoated material is very different than bare aluminum.

Al6061 without anodize or hardcoat is very susceptible to corrosion in ehtanol environments - you need to coat the aluminum to make it corrosion resistant.

From your earlier post - "Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were also evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 and the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels. The oxide coatings on both Al alloys provided effective corrosion protection in the alternative fuel environments."

This is very different than bare aluminum, kind of like the difference between sheet steel and zinc plated steel used in most cars

[Edited by: nru at 3/13/2015 11:13:50 AM EST]
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 10:36:56 AM

nru wrote: "Your point is again shown false, due to lack of comprehension of what you are reading and citing, but I would not expect it from you. They machine the intake manifold and put it one your car - they do not spend the money to anodize or hardcoat it. Your 6061 Aluminum surfaces are as bare as can be, and will corrode with exposure to ehtanol."

I'm not the one who fails to understand the content that he/she links to. Once again.

"In the ethanol fuel environment, the Al6061 might have a similar or even lower corrosion rate than 304 stainless steel."

"With increasing ethanol content, the corrosion resistance of the Al319 alloy decreases, while the corrosion resistance of the Al6061 alloy increases"

Complete failure by nru.
goldseeker
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2015 4:04:26 AM

"So, either GM is manufacturing cars across the board with expensive ethanol resistant components or the whole issue of ethanol eating metal is a tad overblown."

You are spot on soylentgrain. This is a non issue and has been for decades. It is a well known fact that ethanol companies add corrosion inhibitors to the mix. Guess what? Gasoline companies do too.

So unless you are brewing your own ethanol fuels, the corrosion issue is not an issue at all.
nru
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 7:27:53 PM

Gm started putting thermoplastic manifolds on many cars in the early/mid 90's. Most of the rest of the world has not gone that way. But the materials listed IF used in your intake system are still vulnerable. I was not saying that any engine would have aluminum intakes (my newest car has a carbon fibre intake with aluminum heads, and the mfr specifically says to avoid ethanol >10% in it - germans), but many cars are now okay with almost any ethanol mixture. My 2002 (MB as well) has an aluminum intake manifold, aluminum heads, and the rest of the fuel system is stainless (including the fuel injectors) - the owners manual specifically states

"Unleaded gasoline containing oxygenates such as
Ethanol, IPA, IBA and TBA can be used provided the
ratio of any one of these oxygenates to gasoline does not
exceed 10%, MTBE not to exceed 15%."
Page 308, 2002 MB CLK55 owners manual, same phrasing in the 2009 CLK63 owners manual

Like I stated before, many fuel delivery parts are NOT compatible with ethanol, and you should avoid using high concentrations of alcohol in your fuel if this is the case. If your full delivery system is compatible, then do as you please, you will not get the same gas mileage for fuel energy reasons, but you will not be supporting Putin of the terrorists either.

BTW - the 2015 E63 is also not supposed to take more than 10% alcohol, but the 2016 one is rumored to allow it.

[Edited by: nru at 3/12/2015 7:28:37 PM EST]
SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 6:04:04 PM

"There are hot rod shops that will sell anodized manifolds, and you can get your own done as well, but the base manufacturer of you car (unless it's a very high end one) will not spend the money to anodize your parts."

Aluminum manifolds? Most of the new cars I have purchased or looked at over the past 15 years have composite manifolds. The reality is GM used to charge a premium for all the specialized parts and technology in their E85 compatible engines. It cost me a whopping $200 to upgrade to the E85 5.3L engine on my 2002 Tahoe. Today, many GM models are only available as E85 compatible. So, either GM is manufacturing cars across the board with expensive ethanol resistant components or the whole issue of ethanol eating metal is a tad overblown.
nru
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 5:05:36 PM

"Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys,"

I doubt that you own a car that has most of the fuel system aluminum pieces anodized or PEO'ed - and your inability to understand this in no way makes my claim "wild". There are hot rod shops that will sell anodized manifolds, and you can get your own done as well, but the base manufacturer of you car (unless it's a very high end one) will not spend the money to anodize your parts.

Your point is again shown false, due to lack of comprehension of what you are reading and citing, but I would not expect it from you. They machine the intake manifold and put it one your car - they do not spend the money to anodize or hardcoat it. Your 6061 Aluminum surfaces are as bare as can be, and will corrode with exposure to ehtanol.
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 1:30:35 PM

nru wrote: "It's just an actual study of corrosion of materials when expose to ethanol - mentions things like 6061 aluminum and stuff like that. Shows which aluminum materials and which metals corrode when exposed to ethanol, that's all. Btw - in all probability your intake manifold and possibly the bodies of you fuel injectors are made with 6061 - mine are."

Here are the quotes from the Ethanol Pipeline Corrosion Literature Study you failed to link to or quote properly. I'm looking at any information that would support your wild claim about 6061 aluminum alloys not being compatible with ethanol.

"Corrosion performances of several metallic materials (Al6061 and Al319 alloys, 304 stainless steel and grey cast iron) in the ethanol-gasoline alternative fuels were investigated. Cyclic potentiodynamic polarization tests were used to study their corrosion behavior. Anodizing and plasma electrolytic oxidation (PEO) techniques were used to produce oxide coatings on the Al6061 and Al319 alloys, and the corrosion properties of these coating sin the alternative fuel environments were also evaluated. The results showed that the 304 stainless steel, A16061 and the coating materials are compatible with the alternative fuels. The oxide coatings on both Al alloys provided effective corrosion protection in the alternative fuel environments."

"In the ethanol fuel environment, the Al6061 might have a similar or even lower corrosion rate than 304 stainless steel."

"With increasing ethanol content, the corrosion resistance of the Al319 alloy decreases, while the corrosion resistance of the Al6061 alloy increases"

Thank you for proving my point. On the other hand, your intake manifold and injectors made out of 6061 aluminum alloys are perfectly safe.
SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2015 11:58:13 AM

Nissan recalls 878,000 Altimas over a hood latch
That darn, nasty ole ethanol must have corroded those too!
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2015 8:49:05 AM

If they would engineer things to take any fuel - we would be better off as a country. No need to finance putin and the terrorists
Banjoe
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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2015 8:44:04 AM

The crowd is getting angry, my friends, and I have to blame that darn nasty ole ethanol for riling them up like this.
thebrohta167
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 4:38:25 PM

indeed
nru
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 3:23:14 PM

It's just an actual study of corrosion of materials when expose to ethanol - mentions things like 6061 aluminum and stuff like that. Shows which aluminum materials and which metals corrode when exposed to ethanol, that's all. Btw - in all probability your intake manifold and possibly the bodies of you fuel injectors are made with 6061 - mine are.

It's not a wild claim, but rather information put out by real scientists (or maybe you don't think a large group of PhDs with no reason to be for or against ethanol should be trumped by a sales catalog) who do controlled experiments. It just states what they find when materials are exposed to ethanol and gives recommendations as to substitutes that will not corrode when exposed to ethanol. The base materials used in pipelines are used in most industries - aircraft use the same materials as autos for the most part, as do pipelines. Failure to understand does not invalidate anything but your suppositions
krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 1:58:34 PM

"Ethanol Pipeline Corrosion Literature Study" is the name of the linked document.

First you claim automotive applications and then you link to the pipeline study. I'm sorry but pipeline parts are not used in vehicles I drive. Please list the pipeline parts used in yours.

nru wrote: "As stated before, many of the materials used in automotive applications are degraded over time by the presence of ethanol - aluminums (bare) in particular show corrosion when exposed to ethanol that is not present in gasoline applications, but this is easily overcome by substitution or coating. Most seal material can be easily substituted as well, but until this is done ......"

This is your wild claim that fail to support. Why is that? At the same time, I provided multiple links that disproof your wild claim.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/8/2015 2:03:28 PM EST]
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 12:42:04 PM

http://web.ornl.gov/sci/ees/itp/documents/ORNL%20Ethanol%20Pipeline%20Corrosion%20Literature%20Study%20Final%20Report.pdf

Link gets cut off - sorry krzysiek and Soylent - here's the full one.



[Edited by: nru at 3/8/2015 12:44:51 PM EST]
SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 12:40:37 PM

"File not found"
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 11:55:03 AM

[L=http://web.ornl.gov/sci/ees/itp/documents/text deleted ridge[/L]

Dunno krzysiek - Oak Ridge (national lab - does science - not a catalog) disagrees with your sources and has data to back it. Not a wild claim, just reality backed by science.

As stated before, many of the materials used in automotive applications are degraded over time by the presence of ethanol - aluminums (bare) in particular show corrosion when exposed to ethanol that is not present in gasoline applications, but this is easily overcome by substitution or coating. Most seal material can be easily substituted as well, but until this is done ......

krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 10:02:52 AM

nru wrote: "Cole Parmer? How about ASTM G31 - Cole Parmer does not even delineate by type of aluminum. - they are a consumer sales house, not a scientific research center. Take a look at some of the SAE papers that contradict your chart."

This is a second time you have used denial as an argument. Does not get any weaker than that.

As for Cole-Parmer
"Since 1955, Cole-Parmer has been a leading global source of laboratory and industrial fluid handling products, instrumentation, equipment, and supplies. We are proven experts in the fields of temperature measurement and control, electrochemistry, and fluid handling."

Here is anohter chemical compatibility chart that disagrees with your wild claim.

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/8/2015 10:03:29 AM EST]
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2015 12:41:41 AM

Cole Parmer? How about ASTM G31 - Cole Parmer does not even delineate by type of aluminum. - they are a consumer sales house, not a scientific research center. Take a look at some of the SAE papers that contradict your chart.
stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2015 11:25:42 PM

Affecting people's brains, I think. Darn ol' ethanol.
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2015 7:12:10 PM

Let' look at Ethanol's chemical compatibility with various materials.

Ethanol.

ABS plastic B1-Good
Acetal (Delrin®) A1-Excellent
Aluminum B-Good
Brass A-Excellent
Bronze A-Excellent
Buna N (Nitrile) C-Fair
Carbon graphite A-Excellent
Carbon Steel B-Good
Carpenter 20 A-Excellent
Cast iron B-Good
Ceramic Al203 A-Excellent
Ceramic magnet N/A
ChemRaz (FFKM) A-Excellent
Copper A-Excellent
CPVC B-Good
EPDM A-Excellent
Epoxy A2-Excellent
Fluorocarbon (FKM) B-Good
Hastelloy-C® A-Excellent
Hypalon® A-Excellent
Hytrel® N/A
Kalrez A-Excellent
Kel-F® A-Excellent
LDPE B-Good
Natural rubber A-Excellent
Neoprene A-Excellent
NORYL® A1-Excellent
Nylon A1-Excellent
Polycarbonate B2-Good
Polyetherether Ketone (PEEK) A-Excellent
Polypropylene A-Excellent
Polyurethane D-Severe Effect
PPS (Ryton®) N/A
PTFE A-Excellent
PVC C-Fair
PVDF (Kynar®) N/A
Silicone B-Good
stainless steel - 304 A-Excellent
stainless steel - 316 A-Excellent
Titanium A-Excellent
Tygon® C-Fair
Viton® A-Excellent

Let's compare it to other chemicals used in E0 gasoline such as Benzene, Toluene, or Xylene

ABS plastic D-Severe Effect
Acetal (Delrin®) A1-Excellent
Aluminum B-Good
Brass N/A
Bronze A-Excellent
Buna N (Nitrile) D-Severe Effect
Carbon graphite A-Excellent
Carbon Steel A-Excellent
Carpenter 20 A-Excellent
Cast iron A-Excellent
Ceramic Al203 A-Excellent
Ceramic magnet A-Excellent
ChemRaz (FFKM) A-Excellent
Copper B-Good
CPVC D-Severe Effect
EPDM D-Severe Effect
Epoxy C1-Fair
Fluorocarbon (FKM) D-Severe Effect
Hastelloy-C® B-Good
Hypalon® D-Severe Effect
Hytrel® C-Fair
Kalrez A-Excellent
Kel-F® B-Good
LDPE C1-Fair
Natural rubber D-Severe Effect
Neoprene D-Severe Effect
NORYL® D-Severe Effect
Nylon A1-Excellent
Polycarbonate D-Severe Effect
Polyetherether Ketone (PEEK) A-Excellent
Polypropylene D-Severe Effect
Polyurethane D-Severe Effect
PPS (Ryton®) A-Excellent
PTFE A-Excellent
PVC C1-Fair
PVDF (Kynar®) A2-Excellent
Silicone D-Severe Effect
stainless steel - 304 B-Good
stainless steel - 316 B-Good
Titanium A-Excellent
Tygon® C-Fair
Viton® A-Excellent

Toluene

ABS plastic D-Severe Effect
Acetal (Delrin®) C1-Fair
Aluminum A-Excellent
Brass A-Excellent
Bronze A-Excellent
Buna N (Nitrile) D-Severe Effect
Carbon graphite A-Excellent
Carbon Steel A-Excellent
Carpenter 20 A-Excellent
Cast iron A-Excellent
Ceramic Al203 A-Excellent
Ceramic magnet A-Excellent
ChemRaz (FFKM) A-Excellent
Copper A-Excellent
CPVC D-Severe Effect
EPDM D-Severe Effect
Epoxy B1-Good
Fluorocarbon (FKM) A-Excellent
Hastelloy-C® A-Excellent
Hypalon® D-Severe Effect
Hytrel® B-Good
Kalrez A-Excellent
Kel-F® B2-Good
LDPE C1-Fair
Natural rubber D-Severe Effect
Neoprene D-Severe Effect
NORYL® D-Severe Effect
Nylon A1-Excellent
Polycarbonate D-Severe Effect
Polyetherether Ketone (PEEK) A-Excellent
Polypropylene C1-Fair
Polyurethane D-Severe Effect
PPS (Ryton®) A-Excellent
PTFE A-Excellent
PVC D-Severe Effect
PVDF (Kynar®) A1-Excellent
Silicone D-Severe Effect
stainless steel - 304 A-Excellent
stainless steel - 316 A-Excellent
Titanium A-Excellent
Tygon® D-Severe Effect
Viton® C-Fair

Xylene

ABS plastic D-Severe Effect
Acetal (Delrin®) A-Excellent
Aluminum A1-Excellent
Brass A-Excellent
Bronze A-Excellent
Buna N (Nitrile) D-Severe Effect
Carbon graphite A-Excellent
Carbon Steel A-Excellent
Carpenter 20 A-Excellent
Cast iron B-Good
Ceramic Al203 A-Excellent
Ceramic magnet N/A
ChemRaz (FFKM) A-Excellent
Copper A-Excellent
CPVC D-Severe Effect
EPDM D-Severe Effect
Epoxy A-Excellent
Fluorocarbon (FKM) A-Excellent
Hastelloy-C® A-Excellent
Hypalon® D-Severe Effect
Hytrel® B-Good
Kalrez A-Excellent
Kel-F® A-Excellent
LDPE B-Good
Natural rubber D-Severe Effect
Neoprene D-Severe Effect
NORYL® B-Good
Nylon A2-Excellent
Polycarbonate D-Severe Effect
Polyetherether Ketone (PEEK) A-Excellent
Polypropylene B-Good
Polyurethane D-Severe Effect
PPS (Ryton®) A-Excellent
PTFE A-Excellent
PVC D-Severe Effect
PVDF (Kynar®) A-Excellent
Silicone D-Severe Effect
stainless steel - 304 B-Good
stainless steel - 316 B-Good
Titanium A-Excellent
Tygon® D-Severe Effect
Viton® B-Good

Cole-Parmer Chemical Compatibility Database

What chemicals used in gasoline should we really worry about?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/7/2015 7:12:41 PM EST]
nru
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2015 6:25:41 PM

Ethanol is corrosive to most metals (weak acid), but we have processes that could minimize it. No reason we could not use ethanol as a fuel IF the engineering and materials were put in by manufacturers. Unfortunately, this is not the case yet.
PhilnTX
All-Star Author Dallas

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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2015 12:35:29 PM

If I could post pictures, I'd put up a picture of a box of small engine carburetors that were corroded beyond repair from the small engine repair facility (Powell Small Engine Service) next door to me. The owner recommends straight gasoline.
PhilnTX
All-Star Author Dallas

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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2015 12:32:42 PM

E85 works great in turbocharged race cars when properly setup for it. Other than that, I have no need for it.
OnsiteComputers
Rookie Author Arkansas

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Message Posted: Mar 6, 2015 11:07:04 AM

Ethanol Saves Lives

As race officials examine factors in Sunday’s crash that killed two-time Indy 500 winner Dan Wheldon, they could conclude things would have been far worse if gasoline had been fueling the cars.

“If that would have been a gas product in those cars, it would have been worse because gas is more volatile. It lights easier,” said Dan Schwartzkopf, a drag racer who has propelled his dragsters with ethanol.

Schwartzkopf, a Scottsbluff-Gering native now employed by a major ethanol plant designer and builder, helped convince the IndyCar league to switch fuels in 2007 from the more volatile methanol to ethanol.

He believes ethanol’s high ignition point and lower volatility could have prevented a very fiery crash on Sunday. He said that gasoline ignites at 495 degrees, methanol at 800 degrees and ethanol at 850.

“These just aren’t my statistics,” Schwartzkopf said. “Had those cars been running gasoline, they would have been more susceptible to fire. I think the alcohol fuel is a lot safer than gasoline in that environment because of the ignition point, for one.

http://www.kearneyhub.com/news/local/article_0e75ac60-f9b1-11e0-b01b-001cc4c03286.html

What more do you need?:

It's liek the people on twitter complaining that the white man won out over the native 'Muricans. Liek they would rather be communicating with smoke signals or something.

[Edited by: OnsiteComputers at 3/6/2015 11:12:45 AM EST]
Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2015 8:28:34 AM

litesong - exactly what I was thinking but couldn't recall all those fancy words.
litesong
Sophomore Author Gary

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2015 12:56:39 PM

Banjoe bee-lieves:
Both of you have educated me in the foggy world of EPA, mileage testing, and ethanol...... Well done. Keep those insightful observations coming because they really help us confused characters......
////////
litesong wrote:
Banjoe bee-lieves it just got a U-knee-ver-city DEE-greee in "sigh-ants", "e-ner-gee in-DEE-pend-ants", AND "pro-pul-tion tek-nol-o-gee".
Alexi7
Champion Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2015 5:20:37 AM

I would love to see an E-85 approved version of the 355 hp four-cyl. used in the CLA45 AMG.
Alexi7
Champion Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2015 5:08:29 AM

I've run comparisons in six different vehicles(two personal, four rental) and never found E-85 to yield better fuel economy. The cost-per-mile is generally lower(in the 8-10 cents/mile range), but mpg is always down at 10-15%.
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