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Author Topic: New way to look at E-30 from both sides Back to Topics
Hannie59

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Message Posted: May 4, 2013 7:39:25 AM

I have not been to keen on E-15 but have defended its use. In addition, I have boasted several times about the fact that I have run about E-30 on both my non FFVs and haven't experienced any issues or mileage loss. I have my reasons, first and foremost proof that E-30 works great in any car in which I've ever been able to convince people to blend it into.

Here is a piece in the NY Times that both sides of the ethanol debate ought to read through. MANY ENGINEERS agree as well as you can see from the article. Forget E-15... Look at this information. Cheers.

This is a very interesting angle on ethanol in the USA



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 5/4/2013 7:44:10 AM EST]
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Jul 12, 2013 1:53:27 AM

"I wonder if anyone has a handle on just how much the cost would be, to convert an older "E-0" type car (hoses, seals, gaskets, etc) to allow it to run properly on E-15? "

Dad and I were talking about that a few weeks back, he figures that just doing regular maintenance with newer materials would bring older cars pretty well up to spec. Just putting new hoses made out of modern materials, rebuilding carbs with rebuild kits meant for gasohol and little bit bigger jets for the different mixture needed should go a long way making an old car more alcohol friendly. If the fuel pump isn't enough to match the needed flow, you might upgrade to a performance fuel pump that is alcohol friendly. Only thing that would concern me is the decades of varnish and goo that might be built up in the tank and fuel lines from all those years of gasoline use. Even then, might be worth while to keep a few fuel filters on hand and maybe even upgrading to a better performance oriented filter might be a good idea too until the old gunk is cleaned out. Rusty gas tanks and fuel lines might be a problem, but in my area, those parts usually rust from the outside in do to road salt, luckily my Jeep has a plastic tank and I think the lines are stainless. If it's a low performance motor, it probably wouldn't do much other than advancing the ignition timing and maybe advancing the cam a little besides just using extra fuel, but if it's a higher compression and/or boosted performance motor, you would get better power and driveability out of it than you would on regular and maybe even premium. Use enough alcohol (such as E85), you could make race gas levels of power and the engine would likely be more streetable if it's done right. Right now around here in the part of the Chicago suburbs I live in, E85 tends to be $2.99 or less and a station not far from me was selling 100 octane race gas for nearly $7 a gallon about a month ago! If the pricing on 30% is comparably lower like it is for 85%, you could get premium fuel performance in a car or truck that requires the greater octane while paying closer to what you would for mid grade if now regular.

If you can get better mileage out of that blend, I can see big oil having issues with the higher percentage blends, but if the cars start to make more power to truly take advantage of the blend, I can see the so called safety advocates and insurance companies not liking it since the higher power output could make the cars "more dangerous"......................

There would be a rolleyes smiley used there if we had smiles on this forum.
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OceanArcher
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Message Posted: Jul 11, 2013 12:05:15 PM

I wonder if anyone has a handle on just how much the cost would be, to convert an older "E-0" type car (hoses, seals, gaskets, etc) to allow it to run properly on E-15?
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: Jun 6, 2013 9:21:41 AM

jack4141 asks "What's E-30"
30% ethanol/70% gasoline
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Jun 6, 2013 3:15:17 AM

Bring on the E100.
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jack4141
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Message Posted: Jun 6, 2013 1:26:50 AM

What's E-30
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 29, 2013 2:05:00 AM

"Hannie...love this article. We have been saying this for quite sometime! Cars could be made to run more efficiently on ethanol!

"Unlike a flexible-fuel vehicle that can use E85 formulations but offers little financial or performance benefit, an engine tuned specifically for E30 would perform better on that fuel than on the standard E10, creating a market incentive."
"

That right there is why if I were to ever get the opportunity to build a stroked I-6 for my Cherokee, I would try to have the compression closer to 11:1-12:1 so it would be possible to burn 91-93 octane gasoline and still be capable of safely running at least a 30% ethanol blend.
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gamechanger2011
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Message Posted: May 28, 2013 12:25:12 PM

Hannie...love this article. We have been saying this for quite sometime! Cars could be made to run more efficiently on ethanol!

"Unlike a flexible-fuel vehicle that can use E85 formulations but offers little financial or performance benefit, an engine tuned specifically for E30 would perform better on that fuel than on the standard E10, creating a market incentive."

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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: May 28, 2013 12:16:59 PM

RE: "any ethanol in the gasoline lowers mileage, there is less energy in a gallon of ethanol than there is in a gallon of gasoline."

While it's technically true that gallon-for-gallon gasoline contains more BTU energy, the technology to harness the BTUs in gasoline has peaked (after 150 years of tinkering) at about 15%. Automakers have been promising improvements for decades, but this is the reality, because gasoline has an inherent octane ceiling, and you can't benefit from the BTUs in gasoline much beyond 15% without dropping pollution restrictions, etc.

Now look at ethanol. It has fewer BTUs per gallon, but you can harness more of them because of the higher octane rating (inherent in the chemical composition of the fuel), and because you can burn it without having to bog down the engine with the kinds of pollution controls needed to burn fossil fuel. But you can only do this IF the engine has been designed to run on ethanol. Just ask Indycar and NASCAR. That's what they do already. But our common vehicles have been designed to run on gasoline, and the efficiency loss we observe is a relic of that design. But we can't just say "build new cars that work better with ethanol" because so long as there's a fossil component in the fuel, we need to have fuel sensors and pollution prevention systems in place, as well as a more traditional engine that will run on low octane fuels. Both hold ethanol back from full performance.

I'm not sure how automakers will be able to handle this moving forward. It's completely realistic that our world could opt-out of a "better" fuel (ethanol or otherwise) simply because we aren't capable of modifying our systems in an organized way to accommodate change.
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Jmac2008
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Message Posted: May 28, 2013 1:52:14 AM

any ethanol in the gasoline lowers mileage, there is less energy in a gallon of ethanol than there is in a gallon of gasoline.
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: May 27, 2013 7:33:46 AM

It's no surprise tdioiler goes for the scare tactics once again. Claiming you are taking a chance with E-30 when in reality it works very well in any car. The lie continues, and the OEMs just want to find a way not to honor warranties. I assure you regardless of the car you own, using E-30 would not harm it. In fact what the oil companies and OEMs REALLY WANT TO HIDE IS THAT IT IS GOOD FOR ANY CAR, not simply compatible.

I did it with 2 NEW cars right off the lot, one still in warranty (now with 60K miles) and one well out. Never a problem. Both non ffvs where the manual says 10% but no more. Well, my two cars are running great with 150,000 total miles and only breaks and tires and one electrical recall ever done on them, outside of the normal maintenance. All on E-20, and E-30 + in the last two years when my E-20 blender station closed up.

So car owners, give E-30 a try if you have access to it. If you are THAT concerned, then don't. Keep paying through the nose for unleaded only. darwinfinch is spot on with his statement. And the oil shills know it.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 5/27/2013 7:38:35 AM EST]
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WhiskeyBurner
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Message Posted: May 27, 2013 1:02:09 AM

"Ethanol does burn clean, with less emissions packages. But distribution is spotty for those to push efficient FFV engines that use the higher blends. I would agree some vehicles could handle E30, but will you risk the second highest investment, next to your house, if the OEM states using E10 max?

Go to Vegas, gamble like a mad-person, take your winnings to buy a new vehicle to try it out.

Or buy a FFV and don't worry about it. "

Well, that could be taken care of if the manufacturers built the Flex Fuel engines to burn premium when running gasoline and have an ethanol blend that would be comparable in octane so you could at least burn premium when E30 and E85 isn't available. I kinda wish Chrysler had done that with their Pentastar V-6, but the motor already makes 280+ horses in the "weak" version of the engine.

The problems I can see from it is people not wanting to pay extra for a flex fuel engine that would require premium vs regular like they do now, "pay" for premium, then there is the "safety advocates" and insurance companies that might object to cars that have the potential to make more power and penalize the owner accordingly via their insurance premiums. Honestly, I could see the insurance industry being as big of a problem as oil if that is the case.

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goldseeker
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Message Posted: May 27, 2013 12:28:14 AM

Hannie: You hit the nail on the head. E15 is ok, but I would rather have a blender pump and I will always opt for E30.

Thanks for the link, it was quite interesting.
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: May 26, 2013 11:42:28 PM

SilverStreak, I thought most on-shore sites are actually built on farm land. So would that slam to Giwan come right back at you?

Ethanol does burn clean, with less emissions packages. But distribution is spotty for those to push efficient FFV engines that use the higher blends. I would agree some vehicles could handle E30, but will you risk the second highest investment, next to your house, if the OEM states using E10 max?

Go to Vegas, gamble like a mad-person, take your winnings to buy a new vehicle to try it out.

Or buy a FFV and don't worry about it.
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darwinfinch
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Message Posted: May 22, 2013 10:39:51 AM

"Is it true it leaves residue in the motor?"

Ethanol actually burns so clean, it's used as an indoor fuel in fancy wall-hung fireplaces, etc. No soot.

Also, regarding E30... one of the API "Big Oil" representatives was quoted as saying that their biggest fear was that people would stop taking their word and start experimenting with E30 in their vehicles because most would realize right away that almost all cars will run on it without any problems.

Right now the biggest thing going for Big Oil is that most people are afraid to try E30.
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 4:52:50 PM

Dyro68 asks "is it true it leaves residue in the motor?" Ethanol burns clean. Gasoline on the other hand can leave a residue.
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Dyro68
Rookie Author Ontario

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 1:46:22 PM

is it true it leaves residue in the motor?
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skh150
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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 1:02:01 PM

No way
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 12:18:21 PM

giwan, do you have a lawn, or do you use that land to grow food? Should on-shore oil well lease sites be used to grow food?
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giwan
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Message Posted: May 20, 2013 9:54:35 AM

No problem with ethanol as a fuel. It should not be used from corn as it competes for the same land.
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tropicalmn
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Message Posted: May 9, 2013 1:58:07 AM

As engine technology advances, the natural progression continues to trend towards ethanol
In this article from two years ago auto engineers were having discussions regarding higher blends of ethanol for there engine designs.Keep in mind corn ethanol is becoming a mature industry,you'll keep seeing increases in efficiency in current plants but no new corn ethanol plants built. Higher blends such as wide spread use of E30 requires successful development of Cellulosic Ethanol at a competitive price,that's not going to happen anytime in the nearby future.
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: May 7, 2013 9:28:31 AM

Yeah Banjoe you are right on. What they are talking about is probably just another catch 22. Why would auto companies "optimize" these vehicles in the absence of availability? This is good talk from the engineers but practicality has to factor in. That's why I keep going back to ethanol pushing FFVs and E-85... The word "mandate", although it has been twisted and abused by the oilers (The only mandate I can see is maximun gasoline usage), is still never really a good thing.

If ethanol is to emerge, we need to develop it more efficiently and push E-85 and mid level blends for FFVs IMO, not this other stuff. Make it a true alternative option not an increasing blend requirement. People won't stop believing the damage lie until they see more and more people using E-85 successfully. The best thing ethanol supporters can do, is get their butt in an FFV and buy only the best. E-85 :) I am test driving some this week LOL :)

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 5/7/2013 9:33:42 AM EST]
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Banjoe
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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 7:54:52 AM

Thanks for the link Hannie59.

As brerrabbitTX notes, increased levels of Ethanol would need to be mandated as they won't be readily accepted.

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MertieMan
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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 5:07:51 AM

The down side of this junk is it is extremely harmful to small engines.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: May 5, 2013 10:31:59 PM

Interesting article and not surprising at all. However there are two interesting points made which I have been saying all along. First he freely admits that there would have to be significant investment to be able to provide the fuel. As I have noted investment at the retail level to install the tanks and the blender pumps, and at the terminal level to facilitate the delivery of the higher ethanol blends. This is going to be a very hard sell because it will take any price advantage that currently exsists for ethanol blended fuel off the table. Secondly he says that the fuel would have to be mandated. As many here have said again and again they want choice, but in order to make the e-30 blend work it would have to be mandated therefore taking choice off the table once again.

As others agree with the pro ethanol group at least they are being honest upfront and saying that for it to work it will have to be required/ mandated to work. So much for free choice.
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: May 5, 2013 10:16:21 PM

Working in the automotive industry, I can get 50 engineers who actually put those vehicles together that will say higher than E10 is risky and not efficient on many levels.

The source of those engineers from the article were mostly metal and mechanical that did NOT work in the automotive industry.
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QuickTripper
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Message Posted: May 4, 2013 1:04:53 PM

Can it harm the engine?
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: May 4, 2013 11:01:11 AM

I use E35 in my Turbo 1994 vehicle and E30 in my NA 2000 car. Both cars run better on these mixtures.
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: May 4, 2013 9:04:49 AM

I've been using E30 in my non-FFV Honda CRV for over 3 years, with no performance or maintenance issues.
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