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Author Topic: Ethanol should focus on FFVs and E-85 and other mid blends for FFV use Back to Topics
Hannie59

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Appleton

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 3:50:28 PM

Dear Ethanol Industry,

Lies and propaganda have beaten you in regards to E-15. Give it up, and put efforts into convincing FFV owners to use E-85 and other higher blends. E-15 is a terrific idea, but you can't compete with people who can't think on their own and rely on propaganda for their facts. Go for blender pumps and FFVs to give people more choices. You will be better off, the FFV owners will also.

Regards,
Hannie59

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 4/25/2013 3:54:53 PM EST]
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Darksidejeepman
Rookie Author Iowa

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Message Posted: May 13, 2013 11:42:45 AM

I own an FFV. If the $$ per mile cost were equal I would happily use E-85. At current market pricing, the price differential needs to be greater than $1.00 per gallon to match the cost of E-0 premium. Until there is price equity I will continue to use whatever fuel meeting the manufactures specification that gives the lowest $$ /per mile cost.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: May 2, 2013 8:07:11 AM

E-Squirrel...

All GM and Fords 2013 and beyond are certified for E-15. Not sure about Chrysler or imports but that's beside the point. Auto manufacturers,and I mean all of them know E-15 is fine but they want every scapegoat they can get to not have to warrant their products. And again, all GM and Ford 2013 and beyond are E-15 certified by the manufacturers.

IMO however, E-15 is bull s***. I have defended it against false claims of harm, but if I were the ethanol industry, I'd do some damage control. E-15 has made consumers feel forced into using ethanol, has probably caused the automakers some pain based on their reaction as well. E-85 is a great alternative, and it costs very little (100 bucks true costs) to make a vehicle E-85 compatible. Plus there are millions of vehicles, rolling down the road as I type this, that run great on every possible mix of E-0 to E-85 already. Push the flex fuel option and Blender pumps that cater to FFV owners. the auto companies are more than happy to make FFVs if they feel there are plenty of stations that sell it.

Only problem is petroleum industry will do everything to stop it, and that has nothing to do with ethanol being inferior. Petroleum is against consumer choices, period. Don't give me this "free market" crap. If we didn't have FFVs, you'd have the choice of gasoline, gasoline, or gasoline. Or maybe gasoline. Or you could walk. There is noo freedom whatsoever when it comes to petroleum industry. They only want you to be able to use their product, and no other options.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 5/2/2013 8:12:59 AM EST]
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E-Squirrel
Champion Author Orange County

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Message Posted: May 1, 2013 9:08:28 PM

Hannie59 asserts:

"E-15 has actually damaged the great promise of alcohol based energy and cast a shadow on what could have been, but it will never harm an engine."

Well, now you are the "Automotive Expert", with opinions on what will or will not "harm cars".

I have checked the owners manuals for three different non-FFV 2013 vehicles, and they ALL explicitly mention E15, and tell the owner that they CAN damage the vehicle and will void the warranty. Those of us who actually pay real money for cars generally consider the manufacturers more authoritative than random posters here who prefer not to subject their own qualifications to scrutiny.

If the market has been "ruined" for E15, then perhaps you should be writing letters to the automotive manufacturers instead.

[Edited by: E-Squirrel at 5/1/2013 9:10:10 PM EST]
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tdioiler
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 27, 2013 4:37:24 PM

Hannie, the point I have said many times is there are 1,000's of vehicle build types out in the world. If you were successfully using high E levels in your couple of vehicles (If you selected them for that reason, very good choice) could be just as lucky as those that read E-25 would be fine and got burned in the $1,000's of repair costs.

If the OEM manual say's don't, they have a good reason to say that. More reasons than your few experiences. The extra costs of FFV vehicles is now very small cost per vehicle. But the amortization of the development cost becomes very large when you spread the expense over a smaller set of vehicles. But again, you have a choice to buy one.

Hence the the need for choice based on each individual situation. If the cost of ethanol mix actually drives down the cost of gal of gas where people feel it will help them, the market will grow. But to force that un-naturally is borderline un-American. If you want little choice in your life, go live in Brazil where they use more ethanol than we do.
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borsht
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Message Posted: Apr 26, 2013 12:24:59 PM

Where are we going we to get all the E85 we need if it becomes pervasive, especially since R90 is out of the picture. About a half dozens stations in California carry E0.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Apr 26, 2013 11:58:44 AM

It's kind of funny brerrabbitTX that people assume I actually work for the ethanol industry in some way. I do not, in any way. IF I DID, E-15 never would have happened. I would have been promoting the flexibility and choice of FFVs. It started that way IMO. Ethanol and E-85 was promoted 8 years ago as a benefit based campaign.

Somehow, however, inaccurate claims started to proliferate the media about food prices, engine damage, ad nauseum. The positive campaign went awry due to this massive counter attack to make sure people thought ethanol was the great satan being shoved at them by "them greedy farmers". I recently see a very small counter attack against petroleum with videos and things but they are no match for what they are up against in oil industry noise. And I see these campaigns as the ethanol industry got screwed and is now... finally... trying to beat oil at it's own dirty manipulative game.

Yet somehow the anti-ethanol people cry lack of choice. IMO, If you want ethanol free you ought to have access to it regardless of whether I think it's a good idea or not. So, maybe that point of choice by the anti ethanol crowd is actually a valid one. I'll admit that!

I see my posts regarding E-15 as defensive, but I believe in choice. Misinformation, however, is the chip on my shoulder driving my rants. E-15 has actually damaged the great promise of alcohol based energy and cast a shadow on what could have been, but it will never harm an engine. But whether you beleive that statement or not everyone should have the choice, as should I as a car buyer on E-85 capability.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 4/26/2013 12:02:12 PM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: Apr 26, 2013 10:26:06 AM

Hannie,
I don't disagree with you premise. I agree give up E-15 and go for E-85. I agree for different reasons but still agree. But here is the rub. E-85 is a choice, E-10 and potentially E-15 is not. Many of the people here have for some time advocated not so much against E blends but rather in favor of choice. Put everything out there and let the consummers make their choice. However your open letter to the ethanol industry will fall on deaf ears, because for what ever reason, cost, propaganda, consummers, etc. they know that ethanol sales will fall tremendously without the RFA. Just as much as the leaders of Big oil, the auto makers etc. that you are critical of all the time want to see continued gas sales, the leaders of the ethanol movement that you agree with lockstep want to see their product continue to be sold and gain market share.

I find it so interesting that you write your open letter to the ethanol industry when at the end of the day they are not the ones who will be spending billions of dollars to implement higher blending standards. Those spending the money will be the oil companies, the terminaling companies, and the independent retailers who either choose or are forced to go down the higher blend road. Ethanol usage growth in and of itself is not a terrible thing, however any legislation, rule, law or edict from regulatory agencies that force corporations, companies, and independent business owners to spend capital to implement the sale of products that the vast majority of consummers don't want is by it's very nature unjust.

You advocate for increase ethanol usage and use it yourself, that's great but at the end of the day, that is your choice. Those who for whatever reason right or wrong want to make a different choice like say using only clear ethanol free gas do not have that choice in most instances. Yes there is no law that says an individual must buy ethanol blended fuel, ie no criminal penalties for failure to do so, however there is the reality that economically people in many areas cannot choose to burn only clear gas. I have given my own example, I can get clear gas, it just takes me driving nearly 100 miles one way to get it. That is not choice.

So as you advocate ethanol and listen to all the false data (and I agree with you when people rail on about engine damage and so forth because I know it does not do the things people accuse it of doing) keep in mind that much of the anger, dissatisfaction and frustration is born from the fact that they have no choice, and have to buy what is in their market which is E-10, and possibly in the near future E-15 while you obviously have the choice to buy whatever blend you want, which is your choice.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Apr 26, 2013 8:17:38 AM

My message was addressed to the ethanol industry. I apologize if it questions anyone's "intelligence" as tdioler says, that is not my intention. tdioler claims ethanol advocates do not use facts when he himself presents nothing but the petroleum industry's fals claims of damaging effects. How is it that FFVs that run only E-85 last much longer than ones that dont? How is it that I have over 140,000 miles on a 2006 NON FFV that has been run on E-20 minimum but mostly more then 30%. How is THAT? Because these are the facts I know, and all the other claims of "damage" are blatant lies. If you guys can agree with me on anything, it would be that the industry is wasting it's time with E-15, and should be promoting their fuel as an ALTERNATIVE as opposed to force those... who will never see the truth through the BS because they have made up their minds... into using it through blend wall escalation.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 4/26/2013 8:20:55 AM EST]
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tdioiler
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 8:47:00 PM

This is the propaganda - if the ethanol people disagree with anyone, they call everything said as propaganda, lies and others as something with less intelligence than themselves.

Sorry to see so many people doing the 'Springer Guest' acts instead of focus on issues and discussions.

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E-Squirrel
Champion Author Orange County

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Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 5:57:47 PM

Ethanol enthusiast Hannie59 asserts:

"you can't compete with people who can't think on their own and rely on propaganda for their facts."

So, now the explicit warnings in manufacturers owner's manuals for non-FFV vehicles, against using percentages higher than 10% (often mentioning E15 explicitly by name) may damage a vehicle and void the warranty have become "propaganda"?

A great many posters on this site have figured out what the real "propaganda" is, actually.
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