Not Logged In Log In   Sign Up   Points Leaders
Follow Us    9:29 PM

Message Forum - Read Message

Category: All Things Ethanol > Topics Add to favorite topics   Post new topicPost New Topic
Author Topic: 3.2 million gallons ethanol spill and zero impact! Back to Topics
Hannie59

All-Star Author
Appleton

Posts:950
Points:24,040
Joined:Apr 2010
Message Posted: Apr 24, 2013 9:23:57 AM

After the tragic sinking of the Bow Mariner off the coast of Virginia in 2004, U.S. Coast Guard officials noted the ship's cargo of 3.2 million gallons of ethanol had "dissipated quickly and did not pose a danger to humans or marine life."

What if this were petroleum? Major disaster!



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 4/24/2013 9:25:37 AM EST]
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
Profile Pic
forresj
Champion Author Wilmington

Posts:5,473
Points:979,155
Joined:May 2005
Message Posted: Jun 4, 2013 8:56:48 AM

-- Tip Of The Day --

MTBE is bad and banned for use in gasoline. It was used to oxygenate gasoline and increase octane level. MTBE loves and dissolves in water so it's difficult to cleanup after a spill. MTBE was not banned until it was suspected as a carcinogen

Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:7,821
Points:1,174,885
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Jun 3, 2013 9:29:21 AM

What does MTBE have exactly to do with Ethanol? Is someone really that confused?
Profile Pic
krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:7,821
Points:1,174,885
Joined:Apr 2011
Message Posted: Jun 3, 2013 8:23:22 AM

borsht wrote: "But then maybe you would understand what ethanol does to many organic seals used in older automobiles."

What does it do? Please provide facts and support them with links like Chemical Resistance charts. At the same time explain to me how these organic seals are compatible with paint thinners that are added to gasoline as octane booster?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 6/3/2013 8:24:32 AM EST]
Profile Pic
borsht
Champion Author Oakland

Posts:2,851
Points:634,540
Joined:Aug 2012
Message Posted: Jun 2, 2013 6:53:18 PM

Hello goldseeker;
You said,"You can also drink ethanol. Would you like to have a gasoline cocktail?

Heck, you can even take a bath in ethanol, would you like to try gasoline? "

To your point #1. Orders of magnitude more people die each year because of
over use of drinking alcohol,not many from drinking gasoline. Your point is really quite meaningless!
To your 2nd point, I doubt you'd survive soaking in a tub of ethanol for half an hour.
But then maybe you would understand what ethanol does to many organic seals used in older automobiles.
Profile Pic
reb4
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:23,137
Points:2,270,125
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: Jun 2, 2013 10:02:01 AM

summary:

"At 18051 on Saturday, 28 February 2004 the chemical tanker BOW MARINER caught fire and exploded while the crew was engaged in cleaning residual Methyl Tert Butyl Ether (MTBE) from cargo tank number eight starboard. The ship sank by the bow at 1937 in position 37-52.8N/ 074-15.3W, about 45 nautical miles east of Virginia. Of the 27 crewmembers aboard, six abandoned ship and were able to make it to an inflatable life raft and were rescued by the Coast Guard. An unknown number of other crewmembers abandoned ship to the water. The Coast Guard and Good Samaritan vessels recovered three of these crewmen from the water, one deceased. The other two died before reaching a hospital. 18 crewmen remain missing and are
presumed dead. The vessel’s cargo of ethyl alcohol (3,188,711 gallons) was released, along with the vessel’s heavy fuel oil (192,904 gallons), diesel fuel (48,266 gallons) and slops (quantity unknown).

The cause of this casualty was the ignition of a fuel/air mixture, either on deck or in the cargo tanks, that was within its flammable limits. The ignition source could not be precisely determined."

Also:

Personnel Casualties:

Recorded Dead: 3
Recorded Injured: 6
Recorded Missing: 18 - Presumed dead...So from the otp "cargo of 3.2 million gallons of ethanol had "dissipated quickly and did not pose a danger to humans or marine life."

However, the casualties of the crew of which 21 definitely had a big impact to this "tragedy"...

Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:22,426
Points:3,165,765
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Jun 2, 2013 6:25:22 AM

You can also drink ethanol. Would you like to have a gasoline cocktail?

Heck, you can even take a bath in ethanol, would you like to try gasoline?
Profile Pic
tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

Posts:269
Points:250,880
Joined:Mar 2011
Message Posted: Jun 2, 2013 2:22:16 AM

Cargo
At the time of the explosion the BOW MARINER was carrying 3,188,711 gallons of
ethyl alcohol in six of the 10 center cargo tanks. The remaining 22 cargo tanks had contained
MTBE, which was discharged in three parcels in the Port of New York/New Jersey during the
period 25 February 2004 to 28 February 2004. These 22 tanks contained residual MTBE in the
tank sumps and significant quantities of vapor. MTBE vapors exploded while cleaning MTBE tanks.Pollution was from heavy & light oil.
Profile Pic
WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

Posts:450
Points:15,755
Joined:May 2013
Message Posted: Jun 1, 2013 11:31:07 PM

Uhhhg..................

[Edited by: WhiskeyBurner at 6/1/2013 11:31:47 PM EST]
Profile Pic
reb4
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:23,137
Points:2,270,125
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: Jun 1, 2013 11:06:57 PM

INVESTIGATION INTO THE EXPLOSION AND SINKING OF BOW MARINER IN THE ATLANTIC OCEAN ON FEBRUARY 28, 2004

"The BOW MARINER exploded and sank off the coast of Virginia, within the U.S. Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), resulting in the total loss of the ship, loss of life and severe pollution; therefore, this casualty is a very serious casualty as defined in IMO Resolution A.849(20),"

The cargo was MTBE GC2011, not e85, which is typically more like e70...
Profile Pic
WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

Posts:450
Points:15,755
Joined:May 2013
Message Posted: Jun 1, 2013 6:44:27 PM

You just made me laugh pretty hard there Forresj!
Profile Pic
forresj
Champion Author Wilmington

Posts:5,473
Points:979,155
Joined:May 2005
Message Posted: Jun 1, 2013 5:07:05 PM

Another great thing about ethanol is that it's not toxic to humans if gets mixed with the underground water supply after a spill. Just bring olives and ice and you'll have a drinking party.
Profile Pic
gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

Posts:1,857
Points:70,010
Joined:Jun 2011
Message Posted: May 29, 2013 10:04:19 AM

"Although it is clear that gasoline is more volatile than Ethyl Alcohol, the biggest difference between the two properties is that one is soluble in water and the other is not."
During our research we found a number of sources that had incorrectly reported E85 has more volatile properties than gasoline at 32 degrees.
Profile Pic
gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

Posts:1,857
Points:70,010
Joined:Jun 2011
Message Posted: May 29, 2013 9:53:54 AM

Reb4..."E85 is more flammable than gasoline at low temperatures (32°F), but less flammable at normal temperatures. Pure ethanol is non-toxic, water soluble and biodegradable.Ethanol Fact Sheet
Profile Pic
reb4
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:23,137
Points:2,270,125
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: May 29, 2013 9:03:58 AM

"Rubbing alcohol has nothing to do with this thread. Everclear is a brand of grain alcohol. Did you know the reason that gasoline is added at the ethanol plants? So what we are buying is really E97 or E98. The petroleum that is added to the ethanol will turn the grass brown. But pure ethanol is basically grain alcohol.

Not really sure what you are going for in your last post. "

GC2011, I was only responding to your post that stated "Reb4...different kind of alcohol and you know it. Would you drink rubbing alcohol?"Actually, the adding of petroleum based product to ethanol was not the what causes the cargo to be dangerous... Ethanol is extremely flammable, much more so than e10 or diesel fuel...
Profile Pic
WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

Posts:450
Points:15,755
Joined:May 2013
Message Posted: May 29, 2013 1:49:01 AM

Well Game Changer, That is what made me think that the only responsibility Ethanol had in that mess was being the combustible that initiated the disaster.

"The primary reason ethanol tankers are dangerous is because biorefiners are required by law to add 5% petroleum before it leaves the facility, to render it non-consumable. When an ethanol tanker derails, that "denatured" portion is worthy of concern. And while it would be silly to say 3.2 million gallons of ethanol are harmless in any ecosystem, we're comparing biofuels to petroleum, and they aren't on the same disaster scale. Not even close. Take a fish tank and pour in 1 gallon of ethanol. The fish may get googly-eyed but they will survive. Try that with gasoline and see what happens."

When I think about them using gas to denature ethanol, my high school chemistry teacher comes to mind. She used to make her own for class purposes and even told us right up front that it was moonshine. She also warned us that it was denatured so we would be wise not to drink it. The denaturing agent was Phenolphthalein.....which had been used as a laxative for over 100 years now.

/wiki/Phenolphthalein

Profile Pic
gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

Posts:1,857
Points:70,010
Joined:Jun 2011
Message Posted: May 28, 2013 11:21:10 PM

From your link Reb 4.."The ethanol and diesel fuel likely dissipated rapidly. The fuel oil and slops formed a persistent oil slick that moved generally south-southeast and remained well off shore."

"The Service has determined that, as a result of the oil release described above, injury to pelagic seabirds has occurred. Aerial surveys conducted during the spill identified over 2,000 birds of 10 species within the general area of the oil spill footprint. Many of these birds were in the process of migrating to their nesting grounds to the north. Overall, the mortality estimate model indicated a broad range of total seabird loss of between 106 and 9,064. This broad range was driven primarily by uncertainty associated with model input variables such as spill trajectory, oil thickness, bird residence times, and other similar data. Because of their foraging behavior, two species that were at higher risk from oil exposure than other bird species were razorbills"

This is from the what??? T/V Bow Mariner "OIL" Spill. The OIL that spilled caused the damage to the environment and migratory birds. Not the ethyl alcohol.


[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 5/28/2013 11:21:48 PM EST]
Profile Pic
gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

Posts:1,857
Points:70,010
Joined:Jun 2011
Message Posted: May 28, 2013 10:57:36 PM

Rubbing alcohol has nothing to do with this thread. Everclear is a brand of grain alcohol. Did you know the reason that gasoline is added at the ethanol plants? So what we are buying is really E97 or E98. The petroleum that is added to the ethanol will turn the grass brown. But pure ethanol is basically grain alcohol.

Not really sure what you are going for in your last post.


[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 5/28/2013 11:00:38 PM EST]
Profile Pic
reb4
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:23,137
Points:2,270,125
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: May 28, 2013 10:22:41 PM

GC, according to this, their are two different types of rubbing alcohol

One of the types of alcohol you can buy over the counter is rubbing alcohol, which is used for disinfection and may be applied to the skin to produce a cooling effect. Do you know the chemical composition of rubbing alcohol? It is a mixture of denatured alcohol, water and agents added to make the alcohol unpalatable to drink and sometimes colorants. There are two common types of rubbing alcohol.

Now, maybe you own a still (if you do, i don't want to know about it please) And frankly I checked and couldn't find rubbing alcohol in my house (we do not have grain alcohol in the house...


You didn't think that the ethanol in the Bow Mariner was drinking alcohol did you???

If you check the different links I provided (had to fix one since it became corrupted).. - I will have to contact owners to discuss how that happened since I tested the link after posting it...

But I stand by my statement that an alcohol mixture as was on the Bow Mariner would likely have the same damage as gasoline to my lawn...

[Edited by: reb4 at 5/28/2013 10:25:29 PM EST]
Profile Pic
gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

Posts:1,857
Points:70,010
Joined:Jun 2011
Message Posted: May 28, 2013 12:36:01 PM

Reb4...different kind of alcohol and you know it. Would you drink rubbing alcohol? I don't think so! People have been drinking grain alcohol for years. They have to mix a small amount of gas in each batch at the ethanol plants to keep it from being used for human consumption.

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 5/28/2013 12:36:31 PM EST]
Profile Pic
reb4
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:23,137
Points:2,270,125
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: May 28, 2013 12:25:29 PM

gamechanger, you can try that experiment...

I remember someone using rubbing alchol in a spray bottle and spraying it on unwanted grass and weeds to kill them when rubbing alcohol was cheap... Now they pour boiling water over it...

But you let me know how that works for you in your experiment, will ya..
Profile Pic
darwinfinch
Veteran Author Gasbuddy

Posts:457
Points:6,860
Joined:May 2013
Message Posted: May 28, 2013 11:57:05 AM

The primary reason ethanol tankers are dangerous is because biorefiners are required by law to add 5% petroleum before it leaves the facility, to render it non-consumable. When an ethanol tanker derails, that "denatured" portion is worthy of concern. And while it would be silly to say 3.2 million gallons of ethanol are harmless in any ecosystem, we're comparing biofuels to petroleum, and they aren't on the same disaster scale. Not even close. Take a fish tank and pour in 1 gallon of ethanol. The fish may get googly-eyed but they will survive. Try that with gasoline and see what happens.
Profile Pic
gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

Posts:1,857
Points:70,010
Joined:Jun 2011
Message Posted: May 28, 2013 11:13:27 AM

Hey Reb4....go out to your lawn and pour a quart of gasoline on your lawn. A couple of feet over pour a quart of grain alcohol. Which one kills your grass and turns it brown.
Profile Pic
gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

Posts:1,857
Points:70,010
Joined:Jun 2011
Message Posted: May 28, 2013 11:04:22 AM

WEOH....I'm was just thinking about doing that today. I doubt that there are ethanol supporters that go to gas topics and harass the gas supporters. I'd almost bet money that it doesn't happen.
Profile Pic
WE0H
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:1,662
Points:558,050
Joined:Feb 2011
Message Posted: May 28, 2013 3:14:52 AM

Block the idiots and they will eventually go away because nobody see's their posts and they don't get the attention they crave every day. I have many idiots blocked on here and never have to read their worthless posts :)
Profile Pic
gamechanger2011
Champion Author Wichita

Posts:1,857
Points:70,010
Joined:Jun 2011
Message Posted: May 27, 2013 11:07:36 PM

Take a chill pill Reb4. Any petroleum spill wreaks havoc on the environment and you know it. An ethanol spill is not a catastrophic event like a gas or oil spill. Your argument isn't even a good one!

You are clearly trying to direct this thread away from it's original topic!

[Edited by: gamechanger2011 at 5/27/2013 11:08:57 PM EST]
Profile Pic
reb4
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:23,137
Points:2,270,125
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: May 27, 2013 10:44:03 PM

"reb4 is the one who twisted away from the point, which was simply, petroleum spills have a serious impact on the environment, spewing carcinogens into the environment and impacting it severely. Ethanol spills, and no harm done. This is a fact, and just another reason ethanol should be utilized. For it's far cleaner burn and far less harm it does."

Hannie59, you can't even stay on focus with your own topic... pathetic.
You bring up a tragedy and you had no clue (typical) of what caused the tragedy.

"These things will be more noticable once people get over the artificial fears and start using it more. Once they are cruising down the road on what is basically liquid solar energy and realize their cars won't fall apart, then they will look at the rest of the good things it brings."

really, who made this observation??? which people by the way? what artificial fears??? Start using it more??? with the mandate going on most people have little choice... I think you and whiskeyburner have been "hittin" the liguid solar energy too much this weekend..

"OK Reb, let me get this straight, The accident is all ethanol's fault "yea, now ya got it rookie... I deliberately took your statement out of context since you can see how hannie did that with this tragedy...

Read the three links that were provided. Of course the the three links were all provided in my postings. Hannie didn't bother to provide any.

It helps to read facts about an event before posting...

Profile Pic
Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

Posts:950
Points:24,040
Joined:Apr 2010
Message Posted: May 27, 2013 10:34:55 AM

reb4 is the one who twisted away from the point, which was simply, petroleum spills have a serious impact on the environment, spewing carcinogens into the environment and impacting it severely. Ethanol spills, and no harm done. This is a fact, and just another reason ethanol should be utilized. For it's far cleaner burn and far less harm it does.

These things will be more noticable once people get over the artificial fears and start using it more. Once they are cruising down the road on what is basically liquid solar energy and realize their cars won't fall apart, then they will look at the rest of the good things it brings.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 5/27/2013 10:40:13 AM EST]
Profile Pic
WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

Posts:450
Points:15,755
Joined:May 2013
Message Posted: May 25, 2013 6:36:35 PM

OK Reb, let me get this straight, The accident is all ethanol's fault even though the same thing would have happened with any flammable compound due to improper cleaning and maintenance procedures?
Profile Pic
smugutu1234
Champion Author Tallahassee

Posts:1,962
Points:431,470
Joined:Feb 2013
Message Posted: May 25, 2013 11:00:40 AM

???
Profile Pic
reb4
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:23,137
Points:2,270,125
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: May 25, 2013 9:47:35 AM

Hannie,
"Ethanol is flammable reb4 of course. I was referring to the environmental impact of the tragedy, not the fact that it was a tragic accident. "

Hanie, did you not read the reports that I posted. Here let me help you...

Look at the title of the report - Final Damage Assessment and Restoration Plan

Now, what caused the damage???? It was caused by an explosion! And there WAS an impact! Direct cause was the ethanol which caused the explosion! "If you want to go to that level, how many lives are lost due to oil? Counting cancer for just about everyone who works in the industry due to benzene exposure, to the health effects of pipeline breaks in Arkansas that your industry shamefully tried to cover up, to the lives lost defending it overseas?"

You are not staying on focus of your own topic, or to my questions regarding the topic. You need to not lash out at people that point out the errors in your topics. I am just pointing out that:

You never gave any information or FACTS about the tragedy.
You only twisted the story to forward your ethanol agenda and ignored the FACTS that the tragedy occured because of the ethanol fumes which resulted in an environmental issue.

"Obviously you are grasping at straws in your continued defense of your vile monopolistic industry."

I did nothing of the sort... please point how I am defending any industry in my post in this topic. What I am defending is presenting the facts!Please respond to my questions as well as reading the links to the facts.

[Edited by: reb4 at 5/25/2013 9:50:01 AM EST]
Profile Pic
Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

Posts:950
Points:24,040
Joined:Apr 2010
Message Posted: May 25, 2013 7:55:21 AM

pretty shameful of you reb4.

Ethanol is flammable reb4 of course. I was referring to the environmental impact of the tragedy, not the fact that it was a tragic accident. If you want to go to that level, how many lives are lost due to oil? Counting cancer for just about everyone who works in the industry due to benzene exposure, to the health effects of pipeline breaks in Arkansas that your industry shamefully tried to cover up, to the lives lost defending it overseas?

Obviously you are grasping at straws in your continued defense of your vile monopolistic industry.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 5/25/2013 8:00:48 AM EST]
Profile Pic
reb4
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:23,137
Points:2,270,125
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: May 25, 2013 7:42:56 AM

wow, this is current and recent news...

Hannie, what caused the sinking of the Bow Mariner...

Was it not due to the clean up of the tanks?

And was there not casualties that resulted from this "disastor"?

And exactly why would you post this particular trajedy from 2004???

Link some information on the Bow Mariner story (page 5)

Link to additional information and the resulting damage

So in essence the Ethanol contributed to the cause of tragedy as well as the death of nearly all of the crew as well as resulting in the oil spill that resulted... Marvelous...

Profile Pic
Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

Posts:950
Points:24,040
Joined:Apr 2010
Message Posted: May 24, 2013 9:25:59 PM

No issue there. Alcohol when spilled in massive quantities has no effect. Even better, when burned it barely has any impact either.
Profile Pic
kbcoach
Rookie Author Minnesota

Posts:83
Points:585,610
Joined:Dec 2010
Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 8:37:39 AM

Let's see..... if 3.2 MILLION gallons of 200 proof drinking alcohol were dumped in any of our "backyards" would it REALLY cause no problems and "dissipate quickly"? I hope that the sea life that could not swim away (whatever direction that way would be) died quickly rather than slowly from the alcohol poisoning.
Profile Pic
goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

Posts:22,426
Points:3,165,765
Joined:Sep 2005
Message Posted: Apr 25, 2013 2:43:01 AM

Isn't it amazing. Ethanol degrades.
Post a reply Back to Topics