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Author Topic: +15% price spreads Back to Topics
James48843

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Michigan

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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2013 9:36:46 AM

Once again we're starting to see good price spreads of 15% or greater, that make E85 the fuel of choice for flex-fuelers.

Most flex-fuel cars get between 10% and 15% fewer miles per gallon on E85. (a few get better, but most fall into that range). So it is important to price E85 fuel 15% or more if you want flex-fueler's to switch to E85.

Speedway in Michigan just dropped their prices to 16% less for E85 than gasoline- leading many to make the switch.

There are now over 3,000 E85 pumps in the USA, and we're starting to see the very beginning of real competition for flex-fuel pricing. Thanks Speedway for leading the way.
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: May 23, 2013 11:21:02 PM

Hannie, watch out for those exaggerations as well. Seems like the quote was actually 30% max while you made the exaggeration to 1/3 (or 33.33%).

But I will agree the number is closer to 25% max on FFV engines. Should be lower if the OEM actually designed to run E-85 efficiently instead of changing out a few parts to deal with Ethanol issues.
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 23, 2013 4:32:46 PM

I'd rather see more blender pumps that allow the end user (i.e. us) chose how much we want to use. Be a whole lot easier that spash blending vehicles that aren't truely flex fuel but can handle higher blends of ethanol than just 10%.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: May 23, 2013 3:03:29 PM

Grumpy claims 1/3 mileage loss, this is extremely exaggerated. Real world E-85 is absolutely worst case, 25%. Mostly around 20* with modern FFV.

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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: May 23, 2013 1:44:54 PM

At $3 for E0, $2 is the break-even point for E85.

And thats not counting the inconvenience of 1/3rd shorter range.
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: May 23, 2013 1:42:21 PM

"Should be more non-ethanol pumps."

Ditto. Let the market decide. Eliminate ethanol quotas. Eliminate government intervention.

If ethanol was half as great as this forum would have you believe one would have to place armed guards at pumps to maintain order, the demand would be so great.
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: May 23, 2013 1:40:07 PM

http: // www . fueleconomy . gov/feg/ethanol.shtml says its 25% to 30%.

Obama's government wouldn't lie to you. :-)
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smugutu1234
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: May 23, 2013 9:00:12 AM

Should be more non-ethanol pumps.
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WhiskeyBurner
Veteran Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 2:41:02 PM

We're getting some pretty good spreads here in Chicago lately and they look to be getting better. I've seen a station or two drop 87 $.05 and others jump $.06-$.11 in since 2pm yesterday. Seeing as Memorial Weekend is coming up, it's probably time to get the KY out if you're burning gas. Not sure if it's going to affect E85, don't remember it doing so at my preferred station.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: May 18, 2013 1:14:58 PM

James48843, Look at 'em NOW in some nooks and crannies on the map the spread is more than a buck a gallon!

FFV owners, this is very fortuitous indeed for YOU. Go get your more miles per dollar spent today.



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 5/18/2013 1:18:18 PM EST]
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 11:21:35 AM

giwan says "As far as positive/negative energy I believe you need to make sure you really take all things into account."
Yes and when you do, you will find that ethanol has a positive energy balance and gasoline has a negative energy balance. It takes almost twice as much fossil fuel to create a gallon of gasoline as it does to create a gallon of ethanol according to the US Dept. of Energy's Ethanol Myths and Facts website.
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giwan
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 10:36:45 AM

Even all the pro ethanol web sites state they get fewer MPG.

As far as positive/negative energy I believe you need to make sure you really take all things into account.
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 9:05:42 AM

James, I had the 2007 reconfigured several times. It did not make an appreciable difference in mileage.
My rule stays at 20% price differential. Not there at this time. I used some E30 last week and got by with it with no difference. It made my fuel mixture an E20 and I stayed on 2 lane roads at 55mph.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Apr 5, 2013 3:26:42 AM

The prices spread would be even greater if "Big oil" did not control ethanol distribution.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 4, 2013 3:29:18 PM

giwan wrote: "By the way make sure you add in the additional cost of producing ethanol from corn."

Ethanol has positive energy balance while gasoline has negative energy balance. Do you consider that when you try to discuss the price spread between both?
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giwan
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Apr 4, 2013 10:54:05 AM

Are you really going to go against science and claim that ethanol has the same energy as regular fuel? You are fooling yourself and passing along lies. By the way make sure you add in the additional cost of producing ethanol from corn.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 7:43:01 PM

giwan says "The reason for the price spread is because of the energy difference in the fuels"
From what I have seen, ethanol is priced about 15% below gasoline because of the BTU value difference in the fuel. But that doesn't mean that's the difference that you will get. I've used various ethanol blends in two non-FFVs, a 2000 Ford Windstar and a 2003 Honda CRV and have not seen any significant difference in mileage at any blend.
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giwan
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 5:00:23 PM

The reason for the price spread is because of the energy difference in the fuels
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James48843
Veteran Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 2:32:16 PM

On my own car, (2008 Chevy Impala 3.5 liter) , I get about 12% fewer MPG on straight E85. But only aboutr 5% lower MPG on E50. So I occasionally mix in six or seven gallons of gasoline on top of a tank of E85, to get the best MILES PER DOLLAR ratio fuel mix.

E40 or E50 does pretty good for me. E85 has to be priced more than 15% down to make it worthwhile.

This week I spotted E85 at $2.99 a gallon, at a station that also had E10 regular gas at $3.89. That's a 22% price spread- making it well worth my while to use E85. I filled it up!

http://e85prices.com for the station near you. http://e85prices.com

[Edited by: James48843 at 3/22/2013 2:33:12 PM EST]
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James48843
Veteran Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Mar 22, 2013 2:27:56 PM

Stickyvalves-

For your 2007 Chevy, have you done the flex-fuel computer reflash?

See Service Bulletin 60162, or any of a number of other service bulletins issued by Chevy. (*http://www.automd.com/tsb/bulletin_b229036/ is the one for the Silverado 1500 ). They did a reflash to fix the bad MPG's on some computer modules.
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PassmyGas
All-Star Author North Carolina

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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 3:02:57 PM

yes, I'm for it.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 10:11:03 AM

Absolutely correct OceanArcher. You are still firmly entrapped in the world's most government backed monopoly in the history of life on earth. Petroleum. Can't imagine you like the enslavement to having no market forces controlling the price of gas but whatever they feel like charging you, huh? How do you like your lack of choices due to complete control of our fuel supply and false alternative bashing propaganda?



[Edited by: Hannie59 at 3/20/2013 10:18:09 AM EST]
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OceanArcher
Champion Author Mississippi

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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 10:05:17 AM

Hmmmm -- 3,000 E85 pumps. That's an "average" of 50 pumps per state. Not much impact yet
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Mar 19, 2013 9:29:27 AM

Yes, I also agree. The 15% "spread" is the tipping point for most E-85 fans who, like everyone else, have bills to pay and have to get the most miles per dollar. Not all can use it purely on principle. If it gets to 15%, it becomes more of a wash. Higher than 15% becomes even clearer.

Of course I'll blend to E-30 because proportianally i get the best cost per mile that way, but here I am only seeing an 11% spread on the E-85. :(

Nice post James!

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 3/19/2013 9:36:56 AM EST]
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2013 9:15:15 PM

I thank both of you for using your brains to think this through. To many people on these forums talk like ethanol is better than any fuel with same MPG and less wear.

I too have seen spreads from OEM to OEM on their engine designs. So the lower price has to cover the energy loss.

But the spread is getting better.
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stickyvalves
Champion Author Iowa

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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2013 10:16:29 AM

James, I wish more ethanol supporters were willing to accept your statement. I have been using E85 for over 5 years now, and know that both the '07 and the new '12 Chevy Silverados have lost about 16% mileage. My rule has been 20% price differential because of the sporadic E85 pricing between stations and driving areas. The tankfull following using E85 does not provide full nolead mileage, thus the requirement of 20%, not 16%. I have records of every tankful to support my findings. If E85 is consistently priced at 15% less, I will be a consistent user.
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