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Hannie59

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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2013 7:20:04 PM

Big Oil's best kept secret from the American consumer is Brazil's fuel ethanol mandate, which started during the 1970s as a result of the OPEC oil embargoes. In Brazil, where ethanol is made from sugar cane, all gasoline contains 20 percent to 25 percent ethanol (E20-E25). At retail stations, consumers can choose to fuel up on 100 percent ethanol (E100) or with E20 to E25.

For decades, conventional unmodified automobiles in Brazil ran on E20-E25 with no engine problems whatsoever. By 2003, the Brazilian government incentivized the sale of flex-fuel automobiles which can run on any blend of ethanol up to E100. As of December 2010, Brazil had more than 12 million flex-fuel vehicles and 500,000 motorcycles regularly using E100 fuel. Even small engines for lawn equipment have successfully used E20-E25 in Brazil.

Yet here in the United States, Big Oil and the American Petroleum Institute have launched an all-out war against ethanol via a massive advertising smear campaign in an attempt to quash the U.S. ethanol industry. In fact, the API has publicly announced it is seeking a congressional repeal of the federal Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS-2), which mandates our country use 36 billion gallons per year of biofuel, mainly ethanol, by 2022. Currently, the United States is at 14 billion gallons per year of production capacity from corn ethanol, which saturates the U.S. gasoline market at a 10 percent ethanol blend (E10). However, the RFS-2 caps corn ethanol at 15 billion gallons, and the remaining volumes to meet the RFS-2 will be primarily from non-food feedstocks.

The 36 billion gallons represents about 25 percent of our country's gasoline supply. Big Oil and API claim that E15, which is gasoline that contains 15 percent ethanol, is not safe for motor vehicles, will damage engines and void warranties, and is not adequately tested for car use. Never mind that E15 is by far the most thoroughly tested motor fuel in the history of the EPA, and has been approved by EPA for car models 2001 and newer. Never mind that E20 and E25 have been used in unmodified conventional automobiles in Brazil for decades with no motor problems.

The reality is that Big Oil is fearful of losing market share to ethanol by going to blends higher than E10, which are required to meet the RFS-2 blending requirements. The perpetuation of myths and misinformation on the facts and benefits of ethanol is rampant and escalating.
There's more. Don't believe the oil shills that post here. The lie, over and over and over again.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 2/26/2013 7:24:15 PM EST]
REPLIES (newest first) Post a Reply
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 9:05:25 AM

kryzciek_ck has a point. Every time oil stays high they blame refining issues. Refining problems my butt. Ethanol has no problem with "refining"... they produce the fuel, distillers grains, CO2 for carbonation AND corn oil from one input. and the list of potential input sources is growing despite what the cynics say.

I believe the brerrabbittx is correct with the domestic investment piece, that has definitely increased. Global demand is up, and as a consumer on that market the US has been, for many decades now, we're just gonna have to sell on it too IMO. But no precedent has been set on alcohol. If we make it here we can put it on the market or use it here, whatever suits us best.

As far as his statement that Brazil was trying for 100% alcohol fuel, well, again I think he is right at one time that was their goal. They realized that 100% of any fuel is a not good idea. Diversification and choice is much better. Here, at this time, we need to be thinking in terms replacing our huge reliance on one thing, not elimination of petroleum but getting rid of its much too large market share.


[Edited by: Hannie59 at 5/8/2013 9:09:59 AM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 8:43:41 AM

"Yes, you have to drill down, I did. I am still trying to figure out what this has to do with us. "

The jest of the original post is how Brazil has completely changed their fleet to accept high ethanol blends and if I am not mistaken they at one point a number of years ago completely retooled and redesigned their entire automotive fleet to reflect the use of high ethanol blends on their way to what they hoped would be a 100% ethanol only fleet. For many reasons it did not work completely although they still burn a lot of ethanol. As much ethanol as they use I was pointing out that they still use a lot of gas and diesel as well. I also pointed out that they have not invested in any refining capacity and have merely bought the additional fuel they needed instead. The original numbers you put up were for oil. I merely wanted to clarify that much of it was finished product, gas and diesel.

To many others on these boards simply post the headline that the US is exporting more and more oil. When in fact the reality is we are exporting more and more finished products that we have refined. It is a subtly difference but an important one when having a full discussion of energy economics.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: May 8, 2013 8:33:41 AM

brerrabbitTX wrote: "The untold story from the "opinion" piece you posted a link to is that we in the US have invested in additional refining capacity at exsisting facilities in the US so that Mexico, Central America, and South American countries have not had to and are merely buying refined product from the US instead of building their own very expensive equipment."

Please list some of the investments in additional refining capacity at existing facilities in last 5 years. Let's see how really serious Big Oil is about increasing production. That also begs two questions. Why do we often see the prices hikes at the pump related to refinery issues? Why does Big Oil do not invest in additional refineries?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 5/8/2013 8:36:16 AM EST]
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rumbleseat
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: May 7, 2013 8:27:18 PM

Brazil imports 325,000 bbl/ day refined petroleum products.
Brazil exports 164,300 bbl/day refined petroleum products.
Meaning the differential is 160,700 bbl/day.
Source: CIA World Factbook

Yes, you have to drill down, I did. I am still trying to figure out what this has to do with us.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: May 7, 2013 3:37:58 PM

Fair enough. YOU get that point. Fair enough. There ARE other issues. As an active poster, I look big picture. I will however continue to prove the big lie that is being propagated regarding the damage issue and the food prices issue. As I have indicated in other thread... Make a statement that I cannot claim is false, and that will shut me up lol.
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brerrabbitTX
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Message Posted: May 7, 2013 3:14:22 PM

Out of 28 posts on this thread there are two saying that ethanol will do damage to engines and many others agreeing with you or challenging other issues around ethanol production, cost, etc. and you only respond the fact that cars can run on higher blends without dammage.

We get it ethanol does not hurt you engine, okay. Address some of the other comments once in a while. Every new post tells us that Big Oil lies and ethanol does not hurt your engine. We get it. What about everything else being discussed?
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: May 7, 2013 8:47:03 AM

If you want to talk Brazil, most vehicles are certified for E-100. Even those that are NOT are using E-20 or E-25 depending on what the government is requiring. And those that are using the 20-25%, mainly the euro and asian imports to Brazil, are using the same parts as the same USA models. Blows every hole in the E-15 damage lie machine. Every car on the road in North America will run on up to E-30 without consequence or issue, indeed the engine will be cleaner on the inside.

[Edited by: Hannie59 at 5/7/2013 8:52:03 AM EST]
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: May 7, 2013 8:32:19 AM

"It is true Brazil imports oil, in 2009 it averaged 412,500 bbl/day."

You always need to drill down on these numbers because many times they lump all products under one category they label oil. Most of the "oil" imports were in the form of refined products. Their exports were raw crude oil. The difference between the two in the multi billion dollar refinery needed to make the motor fuels.
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rumbleseat
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Message Posted: May 7, 2013 5:56:47 AM

It is true Brazil imports oil, in 2009 it averaged 412,500 bbl/day.
It is also fact that Brazil exports oil, in 2009 it averaged 533,200 bbl/day.

Fuel at the pump in Brazil has had ethanol since at least 1931, when the blend was E5. As of 2011, the blends are E18 to E25.
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SilverStreaker
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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 5:41:01 PM

ChuckByf, 2 mpg isn't much. What is the price difference where you live?
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brerrabbitTX
Champion Author Houston

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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 4:15:43 PM

I am a real simple sort of guy most of the time but fail to understand half of what is said around here. If Brazil is so great at making and using ethanol then why is this statement in the US Trade reports?

"The top export categories (2-digit HS) in 2011 were: Machinery ($7.9 billion), Mineral Fuel ($6.4 billion), Aircraft ($5.4 billion), Electrical Machinery ($4.6 billion), and Plastic ($2.1 billion)."

By the way all that plastic we sent came from oil and oil liquids so you can add that into the $6.4 billion in fuels too.

and

"U.S. exports of agricultural products to Brazil totaled $800 million in 2011. Leading categories include: cotton ($323 million), dairy products ($40 million), wheat ($30 million), and sugars and sweeteners ($21 million)."

Now the above statements beg two questions, and an observation. First if they are so dog gone ethanol crazy then why in the world were they importing $6.4 billion worth of fuel from us in 2011? Secondly if they make so much ethanol from sugar cane then don't you think they would have enough sugars and sweetners and not have to import $21 millon of the stuff from us?

The untold story from the "opinion" piece you posted a link to is that we in the US have invested in additional refining capacity at exsisting facilities in the US so that Mexico, Central America, and South American countries have not had to and are merely buying refined product from the US instead of building their own very expensive equipment.

Finally if the US wants to move to a high ethanol blend or heck even for that matter a pure ethanol market, I will ask the question I have asked since I started posting on this board. Where is all that ethanol going to come from? The fantasy that is a 100% ethanol world is a great place to live until you find out that we can't make or acquire enough of the stuff to keep the economy of the US moving. Ethanol producers themselves have said more than once they are not sure how they will be able to produce the top end of the 36 billion gallons the RFA calls for much less anything higher. Answer the one most basic and simple question out there. Where will all this ethanol come from? Who makes it, from what crop and where do they grow said crop?
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ChuckByf
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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 1:13:55 PM

My flex fuel Grand Caravan gets almost 2mpg less with E85.
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smugutu1234
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Message Posted: May 6, 2013 11:24:34 AM

No more ethanol.
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bthor76
Rookie Author New Orleans

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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 1:57:56 AM

Doesn't ethanol play hell with the soft parts within the engine? I've spoken to more than one mechanic that says it does especially in engines that sit up for a while like outboard motors.
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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 11:06:58 PM

tdioiler wrote: "Silverstreaker, Can you support any claims you make? On this or any of the other forum?"

Can you support yours. I'm still waiting for you to provide proof to multiple "clams" of yours.
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: Mar 20, 2013 10:51:39 PM

Silverstreaker, Can you support any claims you make? On this or any of the other forum?
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panj
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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2013 10:03:46 PM

call the energy department! oh, wait, that's right they don't think they're responsible for oil produciton, usage and policy.
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nurdco
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Message Posted: Mar 3, 2013 1:24:49 AM

Big oil buys up the ethanol production facilities anyway...
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2013 3:03:25 PM

BigHorne1, can you provide proof to any of your claims?
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BigHorne1
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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2013 12:49:09 PM

The big issue, is the big oil and refinery companies are using that ethanol is the reason gas prices are so high. So it proves that these companies are gouging a bit to us consumers.
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SoylentGrain
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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2013 8:50:48 AM

"Ethanol in Brazil comes from sugarcane. Sugarcane is a pretty efficient source of the sugar that is needed to create ethanol. (Energy Out/Energy In) is about 8:1. Worth doing."

You might want to check your source on that one. The energy required to distill ethanol or crude oil is approximately 25% of the end product. So, someone is pulling your leg.

Argonne National Labs has some folks who have written papers on this topic. Newer ethanol plants have a 175% yield, meaning for each btu used to grow and process corn, you get as much as 1.75 btu back. Gasoline, on the other hand, requres more energy to produce than you get back. It's in the neighborhood of 80% of what you started with.

In practical terms, one gallon of ethanol will provide the energy to grow, transport, and process the corn that will make 1.75 gallons of fuel grade ethanol. One gallon of crude oil will provide both the energy and substrate to make only 8/10ths of a gallon of gasoline. Obviously, one is sustainable, the other is not.
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Wanda127
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 10:43:51 PM

ItisAJeepThing I agree with your statement.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 11:10:52 AM

ggg452 wrote: "takes too much conventional energy to produce."

"Ethanol has a positive energy balance – that is, the energy content of ethanol is greater than the fossil energy used to produce it – and this balance is constantly improving with new technologies."

Ethanol Myths and Facts

On the other hand gasoline has a negative energy balance.

Does this mean you, ggg452, are going to stop using gasoline? Does this mean you, ggg452, are going to start spreading facts about ethanol and gasoline instead of misinformation?

[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 3/1/2013 11:14:46 AM EST]
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 10:20:09 AM

I love it if US grow more sugar cane to make ethanol like Brazil.
Do you guys really believe you can grow sugar cane in most of the US? Have you guys ever seen a farm? Petting zoos don't count.
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ggg452
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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 9:50:16 AM

takes too much conventional energy to produce.
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suchont
Veteran Author Los Angeles

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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 12:59:25 AM

I love sugar cane. Had them all the time when I was young. I love sugar. Sugar soda taste much better than the corn soda. I love it if US grow more sugar cane to make ethanol like Brazil.

I love corn, only when it's roasted, sprinkle with salt and some butter. Don't like corn in my soda or my car, however.
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ItisAJeepThing
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Message Posted: Feb 28, 2013 6:09:58 PM


E-10 is good because it reduces the amount of poisonous carbon monoxide that is produced by all internal combustion engines, especially if they aren't properly tuned and run lean. E-15 does not provide significant additional health benefits and is economically a disaster.

If we need ethanol, it should be made from sugar cane or sugar beets that can be grown on marginal soil. Better yet, develop the technology to make ethanol from cellulosic materials like yard waste.

No More Food or Feed For Fuel.
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tomintx
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Message Posted: Feb 28, 2013 5:01:01 PM

Ethanol in Brazil comes from sugarcane. Sugarcane is a pretty efficient source of the sugar that is needed to create ethanol. (Energy Out/Energy In) is about 8:1. Worth doing.

Ethanol in the USA comes from corn. Corn SUCKS as a source of the sugar that is needed to create ethanol. (Energy Out/Energy In) is close to 1.0, plus or minus 10%. Not worth doing.
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Hannie59
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Message Posted: Feb 28, 2013 3:39:44 PM

Trusting Big Oil with its claims about the dangers of ethanol is like trusting certain soft drink makers about claims against drinks that might be good for you.

“If Coke and Pepsi put out a study that said sugar-free Kool-Aid is bad for you, I’m sure people would question that,” says Senior Vice President of the American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE) Ron Lamberty, as he lamented the fact that most media aren’t questioning the American Petroleum Institute’s … aka Big Oil … claims against ethanol. “You spend all your time trying to correct something that wasn’t true in the first place. It’s been effective for them. That’s why they do it. The media [needs to do its job] and push back on these guys and ask them, ‘Why are they doing this?’”

Ron pointed out that API’s study that tried to show E15 would damage a vehicle is motivated by one thing: hanging on to your money spent on their non-renewable fuel.

“Nothing strikes more fear in [petroleum marketers'] hearts than seeing their customers across the street buying something from a competitor and that something is something they don’t sell.”

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krzysiek_ck
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Message Posted: Feb 28, 2013 9:41:12 AM

tdioiler wrote: "Have you been there or really talked to people about the 'No engine problems whatsoever."? Total BS. Those unmodified engines get rebuilt after 100k miles. They are passed down to the poor who get the 100% ethanol from cheap gov't subsidy. They run rough and no one really looks at ethanol as such a great thing."

Let's see your proof for a change. The list is growing.
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tdioiler
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Message Posted: Feb 27, 2013 10:38:23 PM

Blah blah blah propaganda.

Have you been there or really talked to people about the 'No engine problems whatsoever."? Total BS. Those unmodified engines get rebuilt after 100k miles. They are passed down to the poor who get the 100% ethanol from cheap gov't subsidy. They run rough and no one really looks at ethanol as such a great thing.

They like diesel better.
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69mustang
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Message Posted: Feb 27, 2013 8:25:19 PM

What kind of mileage do they get using E-100?
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