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Author Topic: The downside to E15 Back to Topics
Shockjock1961

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Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2013 9:09:00 AM

E-15 Controversial motor fuel with more ethanol raises concerns

" there’s a growing backlash against ethanol with diverse groups calling for repeal of the federal Renewable Fuels Standard that requires increasing amounts of the alternative fuel to be produced each year. The RFS requires refiners to blend 15 billion gallons of biofuels such as corn ethanol into the U.S. fuel supply by 2015.
The thinking is that increased use of ethanol will reduce gasoline prices and promote energy independence from foreign oil. However, a federal Department of Energy study found a 3.7 percent decrease in miles per gallon with E10 and a 5.3 percent drop in fuel economy with E15.
Ned Bowman, executive director of the Florida Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Store Association, said a huge issue with E15 is that if a consumer puts it in a car not designed to run on it, the engine could be damaged. Vehicle manufacturers have said warranties will be void in such cases."

And yes there is an error in the article (at the bottom). Instead of 25 to 30 mpg loss it should be 2.5 to 3.0 mpg loss...
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SoylentGrain
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 2, 2013 9:03:59 AM

"However, a federal Department of Energy study found a 3.7 percent decrease in miles per gallon with E10 and a 5.3 percent drop in fuel economy with E15."

.....and by adding ethanol to regular gasoline in those proportions, the fuel supply is expanded by 11% and 18% accordingly. The US consumes 15 billion gallons of fuel grade ethanol each year. That's 10% of our fuel supply. Do you actually think replacing that volume of ethanol with gasoline is not going to have a consequence? Gasoline would be more expensive.
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 5:39:10 PM

"Only because the price of corn tripled forcing livestock producers to look for alternative feed sources or simply sell off their herds"
Along with jacksfan excellent summary of drought in relationship to cattle last year it should be pointed out that although speculators caused the corn price to spike higher than was warranted,corn never even came remotely close to tripling. Not even doubling.
Also the 110 car trains loaded with corn from MN have been going to cattle in Texas & CA rather than export markets the last few months.
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jacksfan
Champion Author Lincoln

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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 2:28:19 PM

"Only because the price of corn tripled forcing livestock producers to look for alternative feed sources or simply sell off their herds..."

Actually, it's the historic drought that impacted more than 70% of the U.S. cowherd that forced the massive sell off. Cattle producers who have herds don't rely much on corn. They rely on grazing land. When it doesn't rain, there's no grass to graze. The number of beef cattle in the U.S. is the lowest it's been in 50+ years. That means a whole lot fewer cattle in feedlots, where they do rely on corn, resulting in a whole lot less demand for corn among cattle feeders.

Now you know, shocky. See, you simply can't blame everything on ethanol. Well you can, and you do, but that just makes you look foolish.

[Edited by: jacksfan at 3/1/2013 2:30:40 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 12:18:51 PM

"We had a draught last year and we still have enough corn to create ethanol fuel and export it"

Only because the price of corn tripled forcing livestock producers to look for alternative feed sources or simply sell off their herds...
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Mar 1, 2013 11:34:53 AM

Evinrude and other small boat engine manufactures have listed and warnings about the use of Ethanol. Of particular note is the lack of quality control.
From Evinrude: and OMC - BRP - Evinrude - Johnson - E-Tec - OMC Cobra -
- Honda - Indmar - Mercury - Yamaha - Nissan - Pleasurecraft - Suzuki...All reputable authorities agree, that running on ethanol alcohol above 10 % will cause motor damage and/or performance issues with gas-powered engines, and it is always unsafe to run on contaminated fuel.
Prevention is your best weapon against ethanol gas.

http://www.evinrude-parts.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html

1. It is dangerous to use greater than 10 % ethanol in marine engines.

Some gas supplies are illegally much higher. Check gas with an alcohol fuel test kit to make sure ethanol present is less than 10%.

A recent post on a Long Island, NY message board states,
"Believe it or not, some of the fuel samples tested 48 % ethanol and most were above the 10 % 'maximum allowable by law'.".

All marine engines sold in the United States are designed to operate on fuel containing no more than 10 percent ethanol. Engines built before ethanol became popular for environmental reasons, (past 10 years) have minimal safeguards from the damage alcohol fuels will cause.2. Ethanol absorbs water - Water molecules combine with petroleum (gas) in your gas fuel tank and lines...
Ethanol has an increased risk of fuel water-contamination due to ability to absorb H20.
(Ethanol attracts and absorbs moisture from the air). Vapor lock and fuel starvation can occur.

The gasoline you pump in your tank may be dry, but due to condensation (from humidity, temperature, etc.) water does exist in your tank. Since water is insoluble in gasoline, it sinks to the bottom of your tank -
As long as it remains below the level of your fuel pickup tube it will not affect your engine. The problem is water is soluble in ethanol and will travel thru your engine fuel system.

A water/ethanol mixture, being heavier than gas, will sink to the bottom of the gas tank, leaving a lower octane gas on top. This low octane gas (lean fuel) can cause performance issues with 4-stroke engines, and can cause damage to 2-stroke engines.

Excess water in engines will also cause premature rusting.3. Ethanol is an amazing solvent and cleansing agent.

High levels of ethanol can dissolve, deteriorate and breakdown solid material, including rubber, plastic, fiberglass and even aluminum and steel.

Ethanol will also cleanse and release corrosive matter (gunk), varnish and rust, which will travel through the engine and clog fuel filters, carburetor jets and injectors. In many outboard engines it will also contaminate the fuel present in your fuel tank.

Ethanol tends to dissolve certain resins, which can travel through the engine intake and coat intake valves, causing sticking and bent pushrods or worse. This has been well documented for boats equipped with certain fiberglass gas tanks, made before the early 1990's.

The more gunk (rust, sediment, dirt, etc.) collected in your outboard engine over the years, the more noticeable the cleansing effects of alcohol will be noticed.

Ethanol's solvent and cleansing abilities can lead to engine failure and expensive (avoidable) repairs.4. Ethanol can wear-down and dry-out the plastic and rubber parts in your engine.

Rubber seals and plastic material used in older boats are often not compatible with alcohol. Ethanol will make engine parts dry and brittle. Since ethanol is a cleansing and drying solution, it will clean the oil right off the internal components of a 2 stroke, Extra lubrication is necessary.

5. Ethanol blends can cause additional contamination by reacting chemically with MTBE fuel blends.

Do not mix gas that contains MTBE with ethanol E10.

Mixing MTBE fuel with ethanol blend fuel can create a gel-like substance that clogs passages in carburetors.
Stalled engines and engine damage are the result. Fuel injected engines have shown less damage, than carbureted engines, from this gel-like substance.

6. Engines with older fiberglass gas tanks have the greatest risks when using fuel with ethanol.

Fiberglass gas tanks can "deteriorate" from ethanol, causing this degraded resin stuff, (you'll see "black sludge") to circulate through your engine, coating intake manifolds and building up on intake valves - which basically destroys your engine.

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ItisAJeepThing
Champion Author Tucson

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Message Posted: Feb 28, 2013 6:13:56 PM


E-15 isn't worth the problems that it will cause.

E-10 is good because it reduces the amount of poisonous carbon monoxide that is produced by all internal combustion engines, especially if they aren't properly tuned and run lean. E-15 does not provide significant additional health benefits and is economically a disaster.

If we need ethanol, it should be made from sugar cane or sugar beets that can be grown on marginal soil. Better yet, develop the technology to make ethanol from cellulosic materials like yard waste.

No More Food or Feed For Fuel.
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FocusFree
Champion Author Ottawa

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2013 7:07:05 AM

The whole ethanol debate really has nothing to do with reducing dependency on foreign oil, nor reducing the price of gas and everything to do with supporting special interests. Biomass fuel source is much more sustainable and ethical.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 8:58:26 PM

borsht, asks "What happens to the price of milk, eggs, beef pork chicken when there is not enough corn to supply the requirement for gasoline?"
We had a draught last year and we still have enough corn to create ethanol fuel and export it.

A better question is "What happens to the price of milk, eggs, beef pork chicken when petroleum prices rise?"
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 7:44:07 PM

Hello Shockjock, how can ethanol the cost of gasoline?
First ethanol only has about 60% of the btu. Thus it's price has to be less than 60% of unleaded gasoline to not make the price of the blend higher.
I t is running over 70% of the price of unleaded gasoline.

Now government mandates on Ethanol as a percentage in the blend, what happens to the price of blend when we have a draught?
What happens to the price of milk, eggs, beef pork chicken when there is not enough corn to supply the requirement for gasoline?

You don't need to answer, the questing is basically rhetorical.
Everyone knows it will either drive gasoline price thru the roof, or they will have to backoff on the mandated ethanol.
Ethanol derived from corn is not a reasonable alternative
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2013 12:01:32 PM

"No agenda?"

No more then the corn producers or ACE have...
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2013 11:18:30 AM

Interesting that this "coalition of oil and food industry groups" attack the ability to sell E15 first. No agenda?
"The groups also claim EPA approved E15 before testing by the oil and auto industries had been completed. Earlier industry testing showed E15 could damage engines and cause vehicles that use it to break down."

This "industry testing" was determined to be "significantly flawed" by the US Dept of Energy: DOE questions accuracy of E15 testing
"most surprisingly, says DOE, CRC decided to select several engines already known to have durability issues, including one that was subject to a recall involving valve problems when running on E0 gasoline and E10"
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2013 10:36:40 AM


"A coalition of oil and food industry groups filed a petition with the Supreme Court Thursday asking it to overturn a lower court decision that said they didn't have standing to sue over a federal decision to allow more ethanol in fuel.

The American Petroleum Institute's Bob Greco said the groups also plan to ask Congress to overturn the federal Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS) that he says is "simply unsustainable" because of the allowance of higher levels of ethanol."

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 2/22/2013 10:38:22 AM EST]
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jacksfan
Champion Author Lincoln

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Message Posted: Feb 22, 2013 10:31:49 AM

umbluegray, you drive several hundred miles to buy E-15 for your lawn tractor?
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Daurel
Veteran Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2013 8:46:21 PM

Answer me this why are the part numbers on fuel pumps fuel lines engine systems Non E-85 the same as as the part numbers on a E-85 vehicle?
The ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THE OXYGEN SENDER And two lines in the computer!
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2013 3:39:59 PM

umbluegray, I doubt you can even buy E15. I bet you have a hard time finding E85!
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umbluegray
Champion Author Memphis

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2013 2:34:49 PM

I've seen reports of engine damage done by E15.

I have a lawn tractor that has verified damage due to E15.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2013 12:36:16 PM

I see that Congress is attempting to dismiss the EPA's illegal waiver of E15...

The American Fuel & Petrochemical Manufacturers (AFPM) applauds Senators Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) and David Vitter (R-La.) for taking steps to reverse the Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) illegal decision to allow E15 into the fuel supply even though this fuel damages existing vehicles. The proposed legislation, if passed by Congress, will set a cap of 10 percent ethanol (E10) that is approved for use in the nation’s gasoline supply.

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 2/21/2013 12:37:22 PM EST]
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SnowplowingLady
Sophomore Author Pennsylvania

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 11:43:29 AM

Car & Truck makers will not warranty fuel problems UNLESS buy a NEW 2013 model.
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OceanArcher
Champion Author Mississippi

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Message Posted: Feb 17, 2013 9:30:24 AM

Whichever way you go, or whatever way you turn, the prices are up ...
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e_jeepin
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2013 11:25:20 PM

Remember when everyone thought their E85 compatible cars would save them money? Bush backed it as a "step in the right direction? Right away I thought Bush was stupid for backing it!

10% discount at the pump for 20% lower fuel economy?

And E85 went up in price as fast as gasoline! Brilliant!

I have a Diesel and use extra lubricity and cetane additives to protect my engine. The government has proven themselves short-sighted in most cases when it comes to fuels. The rollout of Ultra Low Sulfur 15PPM Diesel was horrible. The temporary 20 cent increase the govt claimed turned into a permanent 50 cent increase! Additionally, the boutique Summer gasoline blends now causes market mayhem every Spring and when a refinery catches fire, you would think a war broke out in Iran by looking at the pump prices!

The government has fumbled around with our fuels so badly that the industry has no choice but to charge us double.



[Edited by: e_jeepin at 2/16/2013 11:28:57 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2013 8:40:33 PM

"it stated 25 to 30 PERCENT lower mpg which is correct"

Ooops, you are correct. Gotta stop reading articles when I'm still half asleep...
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davidgmckendry
Rookie Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 16, 2013 7:50:28 PM

I'm happy to see an article that actually makes people aware of the significantly lower mileage they will get proportionally to the increasing amount of ethanol in the blend. As a retired automotive engineer I've known that even at a lower cost per gallon you come out on the short end of the deal due to the loss in mileage. Also, I re-read the article and it stated 25 to 30 PERCENT lower mpg which is correct. There are also studies that show no real benefit to the environment which was a big selling point for ethanol. Nice article, need to see more like it.
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