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Author	Topic: Corn-based ethanol is a bad idea	Post a Reply Back to Topics

jfbrown42 Sophomore Author Boston Posts:150 Points:303,825 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 8:28:33 AM Ignore jfbrown42 Report Abuse Corn based ethanol has a lot of unintended consequences. Each gallon of Ethanol has $1.78 in subsidy (taxpayer-funded). It drives up the price of milk, meat lots of other food and causes more damage to the environment than gasoline. Check out 33 minutes into this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsUZkxyYJUk

jfbrown42

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Boston

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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 8:28:33 AM

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Corn based ethanol has a lot of unintended consequences. Each gallon of Ethanol has $1.78 in subsidy (taxpayer-funded). It drives up the price of milk, meat lots of other food and causes more damage to the environment than gasoline.

Check out 33 minutes into this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsUZkxyYJUk

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jacksfan Champion Author Lincoln Posts:2,554 Points:1,236,180 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 10:31:18 AM Ignore jacksfan Report Abuse So, borsht, what land are you going to take out of food production to grow switchgrass? Sure, switchgrass will grow lots of places, but there are reasons crops -- other than grass for grazing livestock (i.e. food) -- aren't being grown in those places. One being, the land is too rough or rugged to run equipment over. And with the amount of switchgrass needed to displace corn ethanol, equipment will be needed. With corn, you get food, fuel, fiber and thousands of other uses. I'm not opposed to switchgrass or any other ethanol source. I'm just saying that large scale ethanol production from switchgrass grown solely on non-crop acres is not practical. It's a niche, at best.
borsht All-Star Author Oakland Posts:788 Points:188,910 Joined:Aug 2012	Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 12:08:18 PM Ignore borsht Report Abuse Jacksfan asked where will you grow all that switch grass. http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/418/418-013/418-013.html switchgrass is very drought tolerant and soil tolerant. It will grow in places that corn sure won't grow. It is native, so it doesn't even need a lot of management. Don't be fearful of research. Let's thoroughly look into the facts. Corn CANNOT supply our energy needs. IMHO We need lomg term solutions, and engines developed for ethanol if this is our long term solution for transpoertationn.
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,214,610 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 12:06:34 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse giwan says "Basis of my claim that there are better sources for ethanol than corn are in science." "Better" means different things to different people. Can you provide any economically viable alternatives to corn ethanol?
jacksfan Champion Author Lincoln Posts:2,554 Points:1,236,180 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 10:52:36 AM Ignore jacksfan Report Abuse Where exactly, giwan, do you plan to grow all this switchgrass?
giwan Veteran Author Michigan Posts:481 Points:87,475 Joined:Aug 2009	Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 9:45:26 AM Ignore giwan Report Abuse Basis of my claim that there are better sources for ethanol than corn are in science. Look up articles in Scientific American, MIT Engineering, etc. It's a simple Google search for you. It was a hotbed of research, not so much now. I don't really care for ethanol, but why is it not being produced through a better planting such as switchgrass? LOBBYISTS
AGASSED102812 Rookie Author Michigan Posts:11 Points:1,870 Joined:Oct 2012	Message Posted: Apr 1, 2013 8:04:10 PM Ignore AGASSED102812 Report Abuse If I eat corn, I get gas! We need to harness this!
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,214,610 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 10:24:58 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse giwan claims "Many other choices to make ethanol from but the corn lobby has a strangle hold. Many of those choices are better, with higher yields and less cost." What's the basis of your claim? Personally, I don't care how the ethanol is made, as long as they sell it at a competitive price.
giwan Veteran Author Michigan Posts:481 Points:87,475 Joined:Aug 2009	Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 9:10:39 PM Ignore giwan Report Abuse Many other choices to make ethanol from but the corn lobby has a strangle hold. Many of those choices are better, with higher yields and less cost.
tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:890 Points:418,300 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 1:38:09 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse There are plenty of waste products capable of distilling ethanol, including sugar beets and food waste from fruit processors to grocery waste. Problem is cost in collection and transport to distillers. If a small plant (fits on a semi trailer) could be made to shift closer to source sits, that could make for functional production of ethanol. Use of fuel could be pulled back into production for heating, machinery (hi-lo and yard trolley) uses in the plant.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,531 Points:2,716,865 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 8:53:22 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse "Research at Stanford show that we should consider air purifiers to remove formaldehyde and other aldehydes caused by burning ethanol." And why should we believe anything from "Big Oil Institute"?
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,214,610 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 1:33:28 PM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse borsht, I suspect that you didn't provide a link to your "study" because even you could see how flawed it was. Is this the one where they used a weather forecasting model using a 30 year projection to "predict" increased risk from ethanol?
aebuell Rookie Author South Bend Posts:3 Points:1,200 Joined:Mar 2013	Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 1:04:07 PM Ignore aebuell Report Abuse I was so happy to see our ethanol plant here in South Bend close. I hope ethanol is on its way out!
borsht All-Star Author Oakland Posts:788 Points:188,910 Joined:Aug 2012	Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 11:51:49 AM Ignore borsht Report Abuse Research at Stanford show that we should consider air purifiers to remove formaldehyde and other aldehydes caused by burning ethanol. Status of Ethanol Today ethanol is mixed in gasoline and diesel fuels at about a 10 to 15% mix. Studies on fuel emissions have been inconsistent; however it seems that two very important observations have been made. There is less carbon monoxide and more formaldehyde being produced. Stanford University did a study to predict the impact of more ethanol as an alternative of pure gasoline fuels. Atmospheric scientist Mark Z. Jacobson predicts that there will be more hospitalization related illnesses and possibly an increase in the number of respiratory-related deaths. He says, “But our results show that a high blend of ethanol poses an equal or greater risk to public health than gasoline, which already causes significant health damage.” “We found that E85 (85% ethanol/15% gasoline) vehicles reduce atmospheric levels of two carcinogens, benzene and butadiene, but increase two others-formaldehyde and acetaldehyde,” Jacobson said. “As a result, cancer rates for E85 are likely to be similar to those for gasoline. However, in some parts of the country, E85 significantly increased ozone, a prime ingredient of smog.” Jacobson goes on to say, “However, we found that nationwide, E85 is likely to increase the annual number of asthma-related emergency room visits by 770 and the number of respiratory-related hospitalizations by 990,” Jacobson said. “Los Angeles can expect 650 more hospitalizations in 2020, along with 1,200 additional asthma-related emergency visits.” Conclusion When industry introduced ethanol based fuels, we may have reduced our dependencies on pure petroleum fuels, improved our ecosystem, and even reduced some forms of air polluting contamination. However, at the same time we have increased the levels of formaldehyde in the air we breathe. This Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) is a danger to our health and should be removed from the air we breathe indoors. Keep your home air clean with an air purifier. The HealthMate Plus air purifier is a good choice.
RareFlowerGirl Sophomore Author California Posts:126 Points:36,500 Joined:Mar 2013	Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 4:58:23 PM Ignore RareFlowerGirl Report Abuse No to Corn-fuel subsidies. Actually most subsidies are bad now... in the long run and the big picture. And corn is best used for food. UNFORTUNATELY, now nearly all corn grown in the USA is of GMO sources... which we can thank Monsanto for... and certain government entities.
RareFlowerGirl Sophomore Author California Posts:126 Points:36,500 Joined:Mar 2013	Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 4:55:05 PM Ignore RareFlowerGirl Report Abuse We should make ethanol from only the most efficient sources, such as sugar cane. As the climate continues to change, it might be possible to grow that more successfully in the US, but for now it grows best in S. American nations. We really should be looking at more decentralized solar and wind power generation and associated plug in hybrids, in my humble (biologist/botanist) opinion.
MikeCapeCoral Champion Author Cape Coral Posts:1,927 Points:418,870 Joined:Feb 2012	Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 12:17:07 AM Ignore MikeCapeCoral Report Abuse Out with it!
ggg452 Champion Author Manitoba Posts:1,560 Points:329,875 Joined:May 2012	Message Posted: Feb 26, 2013 10:30:22 AM Ignore ggg452 Report Abuse I agree...corn is for food not fuel.
RedRider1OK All-Star Author Oklahoma City Posts:943 Points:25,440 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 8:33:07 PM Ignore RedRider1OK Report Abuse X2. Ethanol will always be a bad idea as long as our Govt. forces us to use it through the R.F.S. Consumer choice should decide it's existence not Govt. mandates.
minookaband Rookie Author Illinois Posts:94 Points:18,470 Joined:Dec 2012	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 1:44:54 PM Ignore minookaband Report Abuse ethanol will always be a bad idea...
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,317 Points:727,185 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 1:02:56 PM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse giwan wrote: "There are much better crops that produce more ethanol, more efficiently then corn." Please list them here including their exact benefits.
tropicalmn Sophomore Author Minnesota Posts:172 Points:145,815 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 1:02:50 PM Ignore tropicalmn Report Abuse "There are much better crops that produce more ethanol, more efficiently then corn." No one is making just ethanol from corn. Corn ethanol production would not exist in this country without co products such as distillers grain & corn oil.
giwan Veteran Author Michigan Posts:481 Points:87,475 Joined:Aug 2009	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 12:45:36 PM Ignore giwan Report Abuse There are much better crops that produce more ethanol, more efficiently then corn.
ace12012 Champion Author Phoenix Posts:1,660 Points:323,860 Joined:Apr 2012	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 12:16:56 PM Ignore ace12012 Report Abuse say no to ethanol.
Z03 Sophomore Author New York Posts:216 Points:100,140 Joined:Dec 2012	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 7:56:56 AM Ignore Z03 Report Abuse Ethanol is a waste of resources.
EvergreenON All-Star Author Ontario Posts:933 Points:481,740 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 6:53:03 AM Ignore EvergreenON Report Abuse Your right MikeCapeCoral, corn is for food
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,531 Points:2,716,865 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 3:00:33 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse And when was the last time that you had any field corn on your plate?
MikeCapeCoral Champion Author Cape Coral Posts:1,927 Points:418,870 Joined:Feb 2012	Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 1:04:45 AM Ignore MikeCapeCoral Report Abuse Corn on my plate not in my tank.
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,317 Points:727,185 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Feb 24, 2013 9:53:43 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse vulcan96 wrote: "gorn ethanol is a loser in all ways except to the corn farmer and the politition." So you love giving your money to the terrorists. What a splendid solution.
EvergreenON All-Star Author Ontario Posts:933 Points:481,740 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Feb 24, 2013 7:39:09 AM Ignore EvergreenON Report Abuse Corn is a food product. I have problem with my car since there is ethanol use. We should at least have the choice gas with or without ethanol.
vulcan96 Champion Author Ohio Posts:26,892 Points:3,102,640 Joined:Aug 2004	Message Posted: Feb 24, 2013 5:04:11 AM Ignore vulcan96 Report Abuse gorn ethanol is a loser in all ways except to the corn farmer and the politition.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,531 Points:2,716,865 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 24, 2013 2:23:00 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse "But, now the rocker panels are rusting out like you would not believe!" And what makes you think ethanol is causing this problem? My 87 Ranger is not rusted out, and ethanol has been the fuel of choice for 14 years.
nighthawk91 Rookie Author South Dakota Posts:82 Points:34,560 Joined:Feb 2003	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 11:09:00 PM Ignore nighthawk91 Report Abuse I'm a no ethanol convert. I thought my 2001 Century with 150K was doing great with no noticeable MPG loss using an e-25/e-30 blend this past year. After using e-10 the rest of it's life. But, now the rocker panels are rusting out like you would not believe! This stuff is hard on cars!!!
nighthawk91 Rookie Author South Dakota Posts:82 Points:34,560 Joined:Feb 2003	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 11:08:58 PM Ignore nighthawk91 Report Abuse I'm a no ethanol convert. I thought my 2001 Century with 150K was doing great with no noticeable MPG loss using an e-25/e-30 blend this past year. After using e-10 the rest of it's life. But, now the rocker panels are rusting out like you would not believe! This stuff is hard on cars!!!
tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:890 Points:418,300 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 12:21:30 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse I interviewed an investor group that was investing to build ethanol plant using waste food products (mainly fruit scraps) that would have gone to landfill but did a better efficiency converting to ethanol. That gov't money was being held at much lower rates since some lobby group convinced Obama that their use of money was much more wasteful, so they got the money. No to Corn-fuel subsidies. This is like Government Motors !!
tdioiler All-Star Author Detroit Posts:890 Points:418,300 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 12:18:16 PM Ignore tdioiler Report Abuse Hannie59, Please provide the specific makes, year and engine size for those '3% mileage loss' you mention. I want to go back and check some scientific studies on those to confirm you didn't drop a zero there.
46chief Sophomore Author Indiana Posts:136 Points:1,824,720 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 9:55:52 AM Ignore 46chief Report Abuse I haven't heard of any breakdowns using E-85. But I don't use it because the difference in price does not makeup for the lower gas mileage.
Daurel Veteran Author Indiana Posts:309 Points:32,770 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Feb 21, 2013 8:49:26 PM Ignore Daurel Report Abuse And stupid just keeps coming. Indiana has had ethanol for OVER 15 years Funny how every car in Indiana is not broken down along the road!
jacksfan Champion Author Lincoln Posts:2,554 Points:1,236,180 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 10:13:52 AM Ignore jacksfan Report Abuse "It is hard on engines too, do the research." Please, BigHorne1, do tell. When exactly can I expect this? You see, I've done hundreds of thousands of miles of real-world research almost exclusively using E-10 -- and now E-15 whenever I can get it -- and I've yet to experience a single ethanol-related engine problem. When does this "hard on engines" thing show up? How long after the wheels fall off and the doors rust out will it occur?
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,317 Points:727,185 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 10:00:11 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse BigHorne1 wrote: "It is hard on engines too, do the research." Yet you failed to provide any proof to you claims. Why is that?
BigHorne1 Champion Author Missouri Posts:1,487 Points:294,825 Joined:Jul 2012	Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 9:13:29 AM Ignore BigHorne1 Report Abuse It is hard on engines too, do the research.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,531 Points:2,716,865 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 3:20:44 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Not a shread of truth in this thread. It needs to be locked.
brokesista32 Rookie Author Columbus Posts:9 Points:2,565 Joined:Feb 2013	Message Posted: Feb 19, 2013 8:58:33 PM Ignore brokesista32 Report Abuse I agree with jfbrown42
ace12012 Champion Author Phoenix Posts:1,660 Points:323,860 Joined:Apr 2012	Message Posted: Feb 19, 2013 2:44:52 PM Ignore ace12012 Report Abuse no to ethanol.
Greenrancher All-Star Author Indianapolis Posts:553 Points:227,095 Joined:Apr 2007	Message Posted: Feb 19, 2013 12:09:27 AM Ignore Greenrancher Report Abuse There are more efficient ways to get ethanol than from corn.
debonairpilot Rookie Author Tampa Posts:13 Points:950 Joined:Feb 2013	Message Posted: Feb 15, 2013 5:40:18 PM Ignore debonairpilot Report Abuse better than methanol due to it's poor air-fuel ratio.
Hannie59 All-Star Author Appleton Posts:582 Points:15,115 Joined:Apr 2010	Message Posted: Feb 15, 2013 8:33:48 AM Ignore Hannie59 Report Abuse I have to blend, so it's hard to be precise on my percentages. But I DO know for sure I usually end up between 25% and 35% ethanol on two cars. One of them (2006)I see about a 3% mileage loss, tops. On the other newer one (2009) I just can't see any difference, that one seems to adjust better to the mix. But it's also hard to gauge it because I have never run E-10 in either.
goldseeker Champion Author West Virginia Posts:19,531 Points:2,716,865 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Feb 15, 2013 3:20:24 AM Ignore goldseeker Report Abuse Jmac2008 wrote: "and your mpg is worse with ethanol." Mine is not, and I have used up to E30.
SilverStreaker Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:11,930 Points:2,214,610 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Feb 14, 2013 10:14:57 AM Ignore SilverStreaker Report Abuse Jmac2008 wrote: "and your mpg is worse with ethanol." I use high ethanol blends in my non-FFVs and have not seen any significant change in mileage at any blend.
krzysiek_ck Champion Author Illinois Posts:5,317 Points:727,185 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Feb 14, 2013 8:36:09 AM Ignore krzysiek_ck Report Abuse Jmac2008 wrote: "and your mpg is worse with ethanol." Mine is not.
Jmac2008 Champion Author Missouri Posts:2,269 Points:880,165 Joined:Dec 2008	Message Posted: Feb 14, 2013 1:28:48 AM Ignore Jmac2008 Report Abuse and your mpg is worse with ethanol.