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Author Topic: Corn-based ethanol is a bad idea Back to Topics
jfbrown42

Sophomore Author
Boston

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Message Posted: Feb 7, 2013 8:28:33 AM

Corn based ethanol has a lot of unintended consequences. Each gallon of Ethanol has $1.78 in subsidy (taxpayer-funded). It drives up the price of milk, meat lots of other food and causes more damage to the environment than gasoline.

Check out 33 minutes into this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsUZkxyYJUk
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jacksfan
Champion Author Lincoln

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Message Posted: Apr 10, 2013 10:31:18 AM

So, borsht, what land are you going to take out of food production to grow switchgrass? Sure, switchgrass will grow lots of places, but there are reasons crops -- other than grass for grazing livestock (i.e. food) -- aren't being grown in those places. One being, the land is too rough or rugged to run equipment over. And with the amount of switchgrass needed to displace corn ethanol, equipment will be needed.

With corn, you get food, fuel, fiber and thousands of other uses. I'm not opposed to switchgrass or any other ethanol source. I'm just saying that large scale ethanol production from switchgrass grown solely on non-crop acres is not practical. It's a niche, at best.
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 12:08:18 PM

Jacksfan asked where will you grow all that switch grass.

http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/418/418-013/418-013.html

switchgrass is very drought tolerant and soil tolerant. It will grow in
places that corn sure won't grow.
It is native, so it doesn't even need a lot of management.

Don't be fearful of research. Let's thoroughly look into the facts.

Corn CANNOT supply our energy needs.
IMHO We need lomg term solutions, and engines developed for ethanol if this is our long term solution for transpoertationn.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 12:06:34 PM

giwan says "Basis of my claim that there are better sources for ethanol than corn are in science."
"Better" means different things to different people. Can you provide any economically viable alternatives to corn ethanol?
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jacksfan
Champion Author Lincoln

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 10:52:36 AM

Where exactly, giwan, do you plan to grow all this switchgrass?
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giwan
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Apr 9, 2013 9:45:26 AM

Basis of my claim that there are better sources for ethanol than corn are in science. Look up articles in Scientific American, MIT Engineering, etc. It's a simple Google search for you. It was a hotbed of research, not so much now.

I don't really care for ethanol, but why is it not being produced through a better planting such as switchgrass? LOBBYISTS
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AGASSED102812
Rookie Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Apr 1, 2013 8:04:10 PM

If I eat corn, I get gas! We need to harness this!
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 10:24:58 PM

giwan claims "Many other choices to make ethanol from but the corn lobby has a strangle hold. Many of those choices are better, with higher yields and less cost."
What's the basis of your claim? Personally, I don't care how the ethanol is made, as long as they sell it at a competitive price.
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giwan
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 9:10:39 PM

Many other choices to make ethanol from but the corn lobby has a strangle hold. Many of those choices are better, with higher yields and less cost.
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 1:38:09 PM

There are plenty of waste products capable of distilling ethanol, including sugar beets and food waste from fruit processors to grocery waste. Problem is cost in collection and transport to distillers.

If a small plant (fits on a semi trailer) could be made to shift closer to source sits, that could make for functional production of ethanol.

Use of fuel could be pulled back into production for heating, machinery (hi-lo and yard trolley) uses in the plant.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Mar 31, 2013 8:53:22 AM

"Research at Stanford show that we should consider air purifiers to remove formaldehyde and other aldehydes caused by burning ethanol."

And why should we believe anything from "Big Oil Institute"?
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 1:33:28 PM

borsht, I suspect that you didn't provide a link to your "study" because even you could see how flawed it was. Is this the one where they used a weather forecasting model using a 30 year projection to "predict" increased risk from ethanol?
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aebuell
Rookie Author South Bend

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Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 1:04:07 PM

I was so happy to see our ethanol plant here in South Bend close. I hope ethanol is on its way out!
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borsht
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Mar 30, 2013 11:51:49 AM

Research at Stanford show that we should consider air purifiers to remove formaldehyde and other aldehydes caused by burning ethanol.

Status of Ethanol
Today ethanol is mixed in gasoline and diesel fuels at about a 10 to 15% mix. Studies on fuel emissions have been inconsistent; however it seems that two very important observations have been made. There is less carbon monoxide and more formaldehyde being produced.
Stanford University did a study to predict the impact of more ethanol as an alternative of pure gasoline fuels. Atmospheric scientist Mark Z. Jacobson predicts that there will be more hospitalization related illnesses and possibly an increase in the number of respiratory-related deaths. He says, “But our results show that a high blend of ethanol poses an equal or greater risk to public health than gasoline, which already causes significant health damage.” “We found that E85 (85% ethanol/15% gasoline) vehicles reduce atmospheric levels of two carcinogens, benzene and butadiene, but increase two others-formaldehyde and acetaldehyde,” Jacobson said. “As a result, cancer rates for E85 are likely to be similar to those for gasoline. However, in some parts of the country, E85 significantly increased ozone, a prime ingredient of smog.” Jacobson goes on to say, “However, we found that nationwide, E85 is likely to increase the annual number of asthma-related emergency room visits by 770 and the number of respiratory-related hospitalizations by 990,” Jacobson said. “Los Angeles can expect 650 more hospitalizations in 2020, along with 1,200 additional asthma-related emergency visits.”
Conclusion
When industry introduced ethanol based fuels, we may have reduced our dependencies on pure petroleum fuels, improved our ecosystem, and even reduced some forms of air polluting contamination. However, at the same time we have increased the levels of formaldehyde in the air we breathe. This Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) is a danger to our health and should be removed from the air we breathe indoors. Keep your home air clean with an air purifier. The HealthMate Plus air purifier is a good choice.
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RareFlowerGirl
Sophomore Author California

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 4:58:23 PM

No to Corn-fuel subsidies. Actually most subsidies are bad now... in the long run and the big picture. And corn is best used for food. UNFORTUNATELY, now nearly all corn grown in the USA is of GMO sources... which we can thank Monsanto for... and certain government entities.
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RareFlowerGirl
Sophomore Author California

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Message Posted: Mar 7, 2013 4:55:05 PM

We should make ethanol from only the most efficient sources, such as sugar cane. As the climate continues to change, it might be possible to grow that more successfully in the US, but for now it grows best in S. American nations. We really should be looking at more decentralized solar and wind power generation and associated plug in hybrids, in my humble (biologist/botanist) opinion.
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MikeCapeCoral
Champion Author Cape Coral

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Message Posted: Mar 4, 2013 12:17:07 AM

Out with it!
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ggg452
Champion Author Manitoba

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Message Posted: Feb 26, 2013 10:30:22 AM

I agree...corn is for food not fuel.
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RedRider1OK
All-Star Author Oklahoma City

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 8:33:07 PM

X2. Ethanol will always be a bad idea as long as our Govt. forces us to use it through the R.F.S.

Consumer choice should decide it's existence not Govt. mandates.

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minookaband
All-Star Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 1:44:54 PM

ethanol will always be a bad idea...
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 1:02:56 PM

giwan wrote: "There are much better crops that produce more ethanol, more efficiently then corn."

Please list them here including their exact benefits.
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tropicalmn
Veteran Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 1:02:50 PM

"There are much better crops that produce more ethanol, more efficiently then corn."
No one is making just ethanol from corn. Corn ethanol production would not exist in this country without co products such as distillers grain & corn oil.
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giwan
Champion Author Michigan

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 12:45:36 PM

There are much better crops that produce more ethanol, more efficiently then corn.
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ace12012
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 12:16:56 PM

say no to ethanol.
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Z03
Sophomore Author New York

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 7:56:56 AM

Ethanol is a waste of resources.
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EvergreenON
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 6:53:03 AM

Your right MikeCapeCoral, corn is for food
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 3:00:33 AM

And when was the last time that you had any field corn on your plate?
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MikeCapeCoral
Champion Author Cape Coral

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Message Posted: Feb 25, 2013 1:04:45 AM

Corn on my plate not in my tank.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2013 9:53:43 AM

vulcan96 wrote: "gorn ethanol is a loser in all ways except to the corn farmer and the politition."

So you love giving your money to the terrorists. What a splendid solution.
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EvergreenON
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2013 7:39:09 AM

Corn is a food product. I have problem with my car since there is ethanol use. We should at least have the choice gas with or without ethanol.
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vulcan96
Champion Author Ohio

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2013 5:04:11 AM

gorn ethanol is a loser in all ways except to the corn farmer and the politition.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Feb 24, 2013 2:23:00 AM

"But, now the rocker panels are rusting out like you would not believe!"

And what makes you think ethanol is causing this problem? My 87 Ranger is not rusted out, and ethanol has been the fuel of choice for 14 years.
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nighthawk91
Sophomore Author South Dakota

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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 11:09:00 PM

I'm a no ethanol convert. I thought my 2001 Century with 150K was doing great with no noticeable MPG loss using an e-25/e-30 blend this past year. After using e-10 the rest of it's life. But, now the rocker panels are rusting out like you would not believe!

This stuff is hard on cars!!!
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nighthawk91
Sophomore Author South Dakota

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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 11:08:58 PM

I'm a no ethanol convert. I thought my 2001 Century with 150K was doing great with no noticeable MPG loss using an e-25/e-30 blend this past year. After using e-10 the rest of it's life. But, now the rocker panels are rusting out like you would not believe!

This stuff is hard on cars!!!
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 12:21:30 PM

I interviewed an investor group that was investing to build ethanol plant using waste food products (mainly fruit scraps) that would have gone to landfill but did a better efficiency converting to ethanol. That gov't money was being held at much lower rates since some lobby group convinced Obama that their use of money was much more wasteful, so they got the money.

No to Corn-fuel subsidies. This is like Government Motors !!
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tdioiler
All-Star Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 12:18:16 PM

Hannie59, Please provide the specific makes, year and engine size for those '3% mileage loss' you mention.

I want to go back and check some scientific studies on those to confirm you didn't drop a zero there.
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46chief
Champion Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Feb 23, 2013 9:55:52 AM

I haven't heard of any breakdowns using E-85. But I don't use it because the difference in price does not makeup for the lower gas mileage.
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Daurel
Veteran Author Indiana

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2013 8:49:26 PM

And stupid just keeps coming.
Indiana has had ethanol for OVER 15 years Funny how every car in Indiana is not broken down along the road!
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jacksfan
Champion Author Lincoln

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 10:13:52 AM

"It is hard on engines too, do the research."

Please, BigHorne1, do tell. When exactly can I expect this? You see, I've done hundreds of thousands of miles of real-world research almost exclusively using E-10 -- and now E-15 whenever I can get it -- and I've yet to experience a single ethanol-related engine problem. When does this "hard on engines" thing show up? How long after the wheels fall off and the doors rust out will it occur?
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 10:00:11 AM

BigHorne1 wrote: "It is hard on engines too, do the research."

Yet you failed to provide any proof to you claims. Why is that?
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BigHorne1
Champion Author Missouri

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 9:13:29 AM

It is hard on engines too, do the research.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Feb 20, 2013 3:20:44 AM

Not a shread of truth in this thread. It needs to be locked.
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brokesista32
Rookie Author Columbus

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2013 8:58:33 PM

I agree with jfbrown42
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ace12012
Champion Author Phoenix

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2013 2:44:52 PM

no to ethanol.
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Greenrancher
All-Star Author Indianapolis

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Message Posted: Feb 19, 2013 12:09:27 AM

There are more efficient ways to get ethanol than from corn.
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debonairpilot
Rookie Author Tampa

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Message Posted: Feb 15, 2013 5:40:18 PM

better than methanol due to it's poor air-fuel ratio.
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Hannie59
All-Star Author Appleton

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Message Posted: Feb 15, 2013 8:33:48 AM

I have to blend, so it's hard to be precise on my percentages. But I DO know for sure I usually end up between 25% and 35% ethanol on two cars. One of them (2006)I see about a 3% mileage loss, tops. On the other newer one (2009) I just can't see any difference, that one seems to adjust better to the mix. But it's also hard to gauge it because I have never run E-10 in either.
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goldseeker
Champion Author West Virginia

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Message Posted: Feb 15, 2013 3:20:24 AM

Jmac2008 wrote: "and your mpg is worse with ethanol."

Mine is not, and I have used up to E30.
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SilverStreaker
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2013 10:14:57 AM

Jmac2008 wrote: "and your mpg is worse with ethanol."

I use high ethanol blends in my non-FFVs and have not seen any significant change in mileage at any blend.
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krzysiek_ck
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2013 8:36:09 AM

Jmac2008 wrote: "and your mpg is worse with ethanol."

Mine is not.
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Jmac2008
Champion Author Missouri

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Message Posted: Feb 14, 2013 1:28:48 AM

and your mpg is worse with ethanol.
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